Carl shrugs at the suggestion that more frequent visits to the doctor might have detected his heart troubles sooner or helped him avoid major trauma through changes in his diet, drugs or even angioplasty or other procedures that, though expensive, are dwarfed by the cost of the helicopter ride and emergency surgery.

Thanks, Carl. You're not part of the problem AT ALL...

Does the article mention if these people are salaried or are paid hourly?

I worked with people years ago, in my shiat jobs, that couldn't afford to take time off to see a doctor. Between the time it took to get there, the time spent in the waiting room, and then the time you finally get with the doctor, they would miss almost half a day without pay.

Why do you think so many people use the ER or urgent care?

I stay away from my doctor because he might diagnose me with a pre-existing condition. Then I'd really be screwed.

what_now: Carl shrugs at the suggestion that more frequent visits to the doctor might have detected his heart troubles sooner or helped him avoid major trauma through changes in his diet, drugs or even angioplasty or other procedures that, though expensive, are dwarfed by the cost of the helicopter ride and emergency surgery.

Thanks, Carl. You're not part of the problem AT ALL...

Er, he didn't have health insurance and because of back surgeries money was tight. People living paycheck to paycheck don't always have $200 for a doctor's visit. I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

Serious people are serious.

Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance. Free or fee, doctor visits aren't priorities for many people.

Ryan2065: I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

No, but his attitude was...bizzare. He's opposed to doctors in general, but was happy that they treated him well when he had an emergency due to his lack of preventive care.

It's a really weird article. CNN FAIL.

ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance.

And it wasn't because they couldn't get time off work?

what_now: No, but his attitude was...bizzare. He's opposed to doctors in general, but was happy that they treated him well when he had an emergency due to his lack of preventive care.

That attitude isn't bizarre at all. Lawyers are liars until you need one. Cops are all corrupt until you need one. Palin is an idiot until you need her. Doctors are all money hungry pill dispensers until you need one.

Ryan2065: That attitude isn't bizarre at all. Lawyers are liars until you need one. Cops are all corrupt until you need one. Palin is an idiot until you need her. Doctors are all money hungry pill dispensers until you need one.

I have a uterus that works just fine, and The Boy could shoot food if I necessary, so why would I ever need Sarah Palin?

That headline is spot on.

If more attention was paid to preventative medicine rather than the more expensive and lucrative reactionary medicine, we'd have a much healthier society and reduce the cost of health care considerably. As it is however, the money and political capital lies with reactionary medicine rather than telling people do get off their fat asses, exercise and stop eating crap. As a result, we're farked.

what_now: I have a uterus that works just fine, and The Boy could shoot food if I necessary, so why would I ever need Sarah Palin?

You are going to a particle physicists convention and want to make sure you aren't the stupidest person in the room?

Much like dentistry, over half of the medical problems in this country are preventable. Just try to get people on board with that though. Give up mah double whopper lunch every day? The hell you say. Exercise? Get real. Hell, most docs can't even get people to take their meds as prescribed. Compliance, a word most people don't understand.

what_now: Ryan2065: That attitude isn't bizarre at all. Lawyers are liars until you need one. Cops are all corrupt until you need one. Palin is an idiot until you need her. Doctors are all money hungry pill dispensers until you need one.

I have a uterus that works just fine, and The Boy could shoot food if I necessary, so why would I ever need Sarah Palin?

Who else is going to solve the economic crisis?

What West Virginian medicine might look like (new window)

morons from West Virginia?

/did you know that under redundant in the dictionary it says
see redundant?

Subby must proofread t-shirts for a living.

7of7: ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance.

And it wasn't because they couldn't get time off work?

If only there were some mechanism by which a doctor could convey to the employer that the absence was due to a doctor's visit. Perhaps a written communication, on a small, convenient paper form.

Guess what.

That article is sure to change plenty of minds in this debate.

can we please just hang all the South-Park-watching libertardians now? please?

ScottHimself: Guess what.

Who? Where? When?

Nabb1: 7of7: ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance.

And it wasn't because they couldn't get time off work?

If only there were some mechanism by which a doctor could convey to the employer that the absence was due to a doctor's visit. Perhaps a written communication, on a small, convenient paper form.

Maybe the Doctor can leave tweets?

Nabb1: 7of7: ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance.

And it wasn't because they couldn't get time off work?

If only there were some mechanism by which a doctor could convey to the employer that the absence was due to a doctor's visit. Perhaps a written communication, on a small, convenient paper form.

which part of "can't afford to miss the time from work" don't you understand? You carry yourself here as some kind of smartypants, now do some thinking

ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance. Free or fee, doctor visits aren't priorities for many people.

Maybe because of the really high deductibles and what few things the "Massachusetts Health plan" covers. The health insurance the state offers is bad, plus the cost is rising way faster than the state expected. If not for some federal money Massachusetts just received to cover the health plan, the whole thing might have been scrapped.

Massachusetts cannot afford to continue offering health insurance/make it mandatory: the cost are too high. I give it four more years before the whole thing is discontinued. Anyways I never liked it that the state required you to have insurance.

pwhp_67: I worked with people years ago, in my shiat jobs, that couldn't afford to take time off to see a doctor. Between the time it took to get there, the time spent in the waiting room, and then the time you finally get with the doctor, they would miss almost half a day without pay.

Why do you think so many people use the ER or urgent care?


I also know some people with very low-end insurance plans that only cover emergency room visit. There is no coverage at all for anything but emergency care, which seems absolutely retarded to me.

Ryan2065: what_now: Carl shrugs at the suggestion that more frequent visits to the doctor might have detected his heart troubles sooner or helped him avoid major trauma through changes in his diet, drugs or even angioplasty or other procedures that, though expensive, are dwarfed by the cost of the helicopter ride and emergency surgery.

Thanks, Carl. You're not part of the problem AT ALL...

Er, he didn't have health insurance and because of back surgeries money was tight. People living paycheck to paycheck don't always have $200 for a doctor's visit. I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

Where do you go to the doctor? I asked my doctor the other day how much an office visit is if I dind't have insurance and it's a flat $70. Even with some blood work it's barely be over a hundred.

Nabb1: 7of7: ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance.

And it wasn't because they couldn't get time off work?

If only there were some mechanism by which a doctor could convey to the employer that the absence was due to a doctor's visit. Perhaps a written communication, on a small, convenient paper form.

This isn't high school. Just because you have a note doesn't mean your boss can't fire you.

Where is this West Virgina you speak of?

I read that as "WHITE serious people debate health care".

Must have spent too much time in the racist swim coach thread.

My primary care physician charges $125 just to get in the door. ALL tests, blood work, x-rays, etc. are x-tra. I hurt my shoulder and spent $400, only to be told I needed to go see a specialist. And, I don't have insurance. No wonder un-insured people drink so much. Likker is cheaper ...

I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

EvilEgg: what_now: I have a uterus that works just fine, and The Boy could shoot food if I necessary, so why would I ever need Sarah Palin?

You are going to a particle physicists convention and want to make sure you aren't the stupidest person in the room?

You, sir, are very good at internetting.

I'm satisfied with the quality of health care here in Canada, but for reasons I don't fully understand, I just can't see the Americans being able to pull off socialist health care, even if they copied the Canadian model to the letter and funded it twice as well. Call it a hunch. I don't know if it's the sheer size of the country, or if it's the pervasive stupidity and evil that all US government programs seem to eventually get bogged down in, but the idea of socialist health care in the States just strikes me as silly.

Befuddled: I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

How about practicing some personal responsibility and not becoming ill in the first place?

Medicine and hospitals are for liberals who aren't willing to deal with their own mistakes.

/lives in West Virginia
//totally does this. Half the people I know who don't have health insurance have a medical issue they 'fix' themselves instead. I've removed my own stitches once because I didn't have the money for another visit.

TFA: Carl and Elizabeth Walls share that concern. They have worked and paid taxes all their lives and say that if the government is going to spend billions on health care reform, then covering people like them "should rate pretty high," Elizabeth said. But, like Chouinard, they worry about falling through the cracks. "You know, we have worked all our lives and tried, and we can't seem to get any program that works for us," Elizabeth Walls said. Their worries might not make sense to those promising universal, or near-universal, access in Washington.

Working hard and paying your taxes all your life doesn't get you squat.

Did you save your money, or did you spend it all? Did you invest anything, or did you just expect that there would be a pile of Medicare and Social Security money waiting for you as some kind of door prize for existing? Did you look into every health insurance plan available, or did you just accept what your employer(s) offered you?

Working hard is great, but you have to do more than break your back at the mill for decades on end if you want the happiness that comes with being able to survive a major health issue. And if you're stupid enough to believe that all that money you paid in taxes was going to pay you back someday, you've been suckered by one of the greatest political lies in our nation's history.

The government does not, never has, and will not care for you. Politicians only care about what you're worth to them in tax revenue or political capital.

Your survival, health, and long-term prosperity is your own responsibility, no one else's. Depend on others -- particularly self-serving politicians -- and you're going to get screwed.

ScottHimself: How about practicing some personal responsibility and not becoming ill in the first place?

Not a bad troll, you get 1/2 an internet.

The problem is not that people are fat or unhealthy or getting preventative care.

All of that could be fixed easily-- insurance companies charge the fat, unhealthy, haven't-taken-preventative-care folks higher premiums, as they are at higher risk.

The problem is bloated insurance companies, and corrupt hospitals charging first and asking questions later. The problem is that between your sore back and the one-doctor doctor, fifteen people get paid. The doctor, the nurse, the receptionist, the billing person, the insurance agents, the actuary, etc, etc.

Insurance should be staying the fark away from the doctor offices. No more of these pre-arranged rates, co-pay agreements, etc. That stuff farks us all.

As someone whose maternal and paternal roots go back in West By God Virginia for over 350 years, this goes against my experience.

Every time there's any kind of family reunion -- wedding, funeral, etc. -- the only thing anyone does is ask about each others meds.

"Haven't seen ya in years! How's your medication?"
"Fine! How's *your* medication?!"

7of7: ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance.

And it wasn't because they couldn't get time off work?

One thing to note with regard to that state is that requiring people to have health insurance doesn't instantly increase the supply of doctors willing to be primary care providers. In theory, if they can figure out how to fund it (which is being quite problematic for them) the increased demand may bring more in, but medical training is not fast.

/would be highly interested in having skillwires and a datajack

EvilEgg: what_now: I have a uterus that works just fine, and The Boy could shoot food if I necessary, so why would I ever need Sarah Palin?

You are going to a particle physicists convention and want to make sure you aren't the stupidest person in the room?

Bam! Hey-ooo! +1! Oh, Snap!

This. (new window)

Article Summary:

Doctors suck! They charge me monies, and they just deal drugs. Evil people, the lot of them.

But when I almost died they saved me and that was cool. But no one should have to pay for their services. Evar.

We already have socialized medicine in this country. It's just the retarded kind.

1) Schlub with no insurance can't afford checkups or preventative care, so doesn't get it.
2) Aforementioned schlub has a serious health issue, requiring an ambulance ride and hospital admission.
3) Schlub can't pay his $50,000 hospital bill any more than he could have paid the $500 for the checkup, tests, and prescriptions that would have prevented the hospitalization.
4) Schlub files for bankruptcy. Unpaid medical bills are the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US.
5) Hospital recoups the cost of his expensive interventive care by passing on the cost to you and your insurance company.

There are two ways to avoid this situation. One is universal health care that pays for preventative treatment. The other is to allow hospitals to let people die on the table if they can't present proof of their ability to pay for the care they are going to receive- essentially, run a credit check before you get any major procedure, and if the numbers don't work, you go home and die.

Befuddled 2009-07-10 06:23:16 PM
I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.



Don't expect any sympathy here. Like many online forums, quasi-sociopathic libertardians are infesting this joint

She is legally blind from diabetes but doesn't go for the periodic screenings that doctors say are crucial.

"Because I can't pay for them," she said matter-of-factly. "And you know, I could go, and I'd get bills, and I can't pay those bills."

Yo, subby-moron, there's a difference between just "ignoring" health issues and not having them treated because you can't afford it. A really big difference. Maybe one day you will live in the real world and realize the truth to that, until then, keep submitting links.

Befuddled: I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

Then find another doctor? If you have faulty brakes and your mechanic won't fix the problem, you certainly wouldn't keep going back. Same goes for physicians. If this is a sincere problem and they're still not taking you seriously, your best bet is to document, document, document. Take meticulous notes on when your abdomen hurts, where it hurts, what you're doing when it hurts, what makes it better or worse, etc. If you go in with a nondescript, "Oh, my side just kind of hurts all the time," they're going to think you're drug-seeking and write you off. If you want them to take you seriously, you need to show that you're serious about the problem.

morons from West Virgina [sic]

...As opposed to whom, exactly?

Befuddled: I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

Does the pain usually occur/intensify following a meal?

I know it is a difficult concept to understand for some "edumacated" people but a lot of people put themselves at the bottom of the list when prioritizing their lives. Sometimes people have to make choices between eating or paying for electricity or going to the doctor. Education has nothing to do with it, health habits have nothing to do with it.

Perhaps those who live in glass houses ought to step back from the glass. Some day it might break and you too will have to make tough decisions.

this just in,

medicine for money, and quite a staggering amount of money at that, keeps rich people healthy. The poor, not so much.

Korovyov

One thing to note with regard to that state is that requiring people to have health insurance doesn't instantly increase the supply of doctors willing to be primary care providers. In theory, if they can figure out how to fund it (which is being quite problematic for them) the increased demand may bring more in, but medical training is not fast.

/would be highly interested in having skillwires and a datajack

Note that the current Medicare system works in conjunction with the AMA to make sure that the supply of Doctors is low, increasing demand and therefore price.

I work in a dr's office. Insurance sucks; they fight medical determinations, they fight medications, they spend more money on this ridiculous prior authorization process (which they spent huge amounts of money lobbying into existence) than they would if they just approved treatments. You've got price collusion on the part of the pharma companies, both overt and de facto, due to the incompetence of the medicare/welfare system; it's effed-up all around.

As a guy who works in a building full of doctors, you know who MY primary is? A guy who I pay cash, takes no insurance, will come to see me in my house if I'm immobile(yeah, he charges more for that; it's worth it), draws his own labs at 1/10th the price of Labcorp/Quest, and has never made me wait more than 48 hours for an appointment when I'm sick. He charges ~200 a visit, but that's 30-45 minutes, and the email explaining the labs is part of the cost.

In other words, he's a 19th-century country doctor, only with more computers and a hotter secretary.

Guy who works in a machine shop across from me has no upper teeth. He pulled them all out preventatively, since he has no dental insurance. Here's the bizarro-world catch: he is opposed to any changes to our health care system.

/taking "personal responsibility" a bit too far, methinks

If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

If you can't afford those things, then you're not working and thus eligible for medicare.

The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.

bunner: this just in,

medicine for money, and quite a staggering amount of money at that, keeps rich people healthy. The poor, not so much.

Because lifestyle makes no difference? The well-off and well-educated have similar diets, similar exercise habits, similar awareness of their own health issues (and are less likely to distrust doctors as 'legal drug pushers' as does one of the two subjects of the article), as the less well-off? It's just pills?

There is no coverage at all for anything but emergency care, which seems absolutely retarded to me.

A policy that only treats serious conditions can be a sensible choice. A policy that treats emergency room visits and nothing else, regardless of severity, invites abuse.

keithrogan: If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

If you can't afford those things, then you're not working and thus eligible for medicare.

The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.

I don't drink beer, smoke or use cable TeeVee or take vacations and I have no idea what sort of beer you drink or how much, but if you can swap it even for health care payments, per month, you'll probably be dead from cirrosis in an hour.

Let's try and not lose track of those extra charges, hidden fees, ridiculous rules, deductibles, and other wahrgarble that makes health care contracts so borderline useless, especially if you need surgery.

It's a lovely bit of admonition and assumption but the real world doesn't quite work like that. Not even for the working poor.

keithrogan: If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

Not necessarily... especially if you're smoking, and your work does not offer a satisfactory health insurance plan (due to very high premiums, low lifetime limits, high out-of-pocket limits, lack of coverage, or what-not). Individual plans can be substantially more expensive especially w/ a pre-existing condition or if you smoke, and may offer less legal protections (e.g. the state might have rules that prevent insurers from blocking individuals from workplace group plans).


If you can't afford those things, then you're not working and thus eligible for medicare.

Medicare doesn't care if you're poor or employed. *Medicaid* may, but that's done in conjunction with state governments, and most states aren't feeling too wealthy right now.

Korovyov: bunner: this just in,

medicine for money, and quite a staggering amount of money at that, keeps rich people healthy. The poor, not so much.

Because lifestyle makes no difference? The well-off and well-educated have similar diets, similar exercise habits, similar awareness of their own health issues (and are less likely to distrust doctors as 'legal drug pushers' as does one of the two subjects of the article), as the less well-off? It's just pills?

I can see the vague outline of your strawman but it keeps falling into the mud.

Ryan2065: what_now: Carl shrugs at the suggestion that more frequent visits to the doctor might have detected his heart troubles sooner or helped him avoid major trauma through changes in his diet, drugs or even angioplasty or other procedures that, though expensive, are dwarfed by the cost of the helicopter ride and emergency surgery.

Thanks, Carl. You're not part of the problem AT ALL...

Er, he didn't have health insurance and because of back surgeries money was tight. People living paycheck to paycheck don't always have $200 for a doctor's visit. I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

They may be morons, but pro active health care would end up saving billions in the long run. Even though people call it frivolous, health care plans do not cover diet drugs, I have a lady that wants to control her eating over depression but her health care wont touch it. If they take care of it now then they wouldnt have to cover the litany of health issues that will cause 10-15 years down the road, health issues that will cost thousands more than a little pill or a nutritionist to put them on the right path.

Some people have the will power, they just feel run over by life and give up.

If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.

Dr. Nick Riviera: Befuddled: I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

Then find another doctor? If you have faulty brakes and your mechanic won't fix the problem, you certainly wouldn't keep going back. Same goes for physicians. If this is a sincere problem and they're still not taking you seriously, your best bet is to document, document, document. Take meticulous notes on when your abdomen hurts, where it hurts, what you're doing when it hurts, what makes it better or worse, etc. If you go in with a nondescript, "Oh, my side just kind of hurts all the time," they're going to think you're drug-seeking and write you off. If you want them to take you seriously, you need to show that you're serious about the problem.

There was a really shaitty mechanic in my town in WI when I lived there. He'd been sued I don't know how many times for faulty work. Yet he was still in business and getting clients. Why?

He was the only game in town.

You may have a crappy doc, but it may be that the general medical help in your area sucks. My grandparents deal with that in AZ unfortunately...

keithrogan: If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

If you can't afford those things, then you're not working and thus eligible for medicare.

The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.

Um, no. If you're middle aged or older, and particularly if you have any pre-existing chronic health condition (like diabetes or a history or heart problems) you probably 1) will be rejected by many private insurers and 2) may be paying $20000+ a year for coverage in a 'high risk' pool. You also won't be elligible for medicare, medicaid, or any other assistance program if you have even modest personal property (like you have a home that you are paying the mortgage on).

You can be living very frugally and still not be able to afford insurance. You can also be buying a lot of non-essentials, and still not be able to afford insurance even if you dropped all of them.

anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.

Yeah! Jobs are just falling out of the motherfuc*ing trees, these days, you lazy hillbillies!

Especially in "TheMineClosedTwentyYearsAgo" WVA.

*facepalm*

Submitter is an utterspasemunki: We already have socialized medicine in this country. It's just the retarded kind.

You are exactly right. I once had the pleasure of a 5-hour wait in a San Diego emergency room because the chronically ill and uninsured had no where else to go. My brother, despite having a college degree, builds grain silos in the rural midwest because that's where our ailing father is. Brother's also diabetic, but while his employer has received millions in federal and state subsidies, he's not so generous as to offer his employees health coverage. In a tight job market in a dying town, he doesn't have to.

Many times my brother has also let his preventive care slide - not checking his blood sugar, reusing needles, buying fast food because it's cheaper than the half a tank of gas required to get to the nearest grocery (not convenience) store. Inevitably, he's ended up very ill and nearly died twice, but as he sees it, he has no choice. What most people with insurance don't realize I think is that UNLESS YOU HAVE INSURANCE OR CASH UP FRONT, A DOCTOR WILL NOT SEE YOU. You'll never make it past the receptionist.

bunner: Korovyov: bunner: this just in,

medicine for money, and quite a staggering amount of money at that, keeps rich people healthy. The poor, not so much.

Because lifestyle makes no difference? The well-off and well-educated have similar diets, similar exercise habits, similar awareness of their own health issues (and are less likely to distrust doctors as 'legal drug pushers' as does one of the two subjects of the article), as the less well-off? It's just pills?

I can see the vague outline of your strawman but it keeps falling into the mud.

Here's your claim: medicine keeps rich people healthy. As if that were the main difference.

keithrogan: The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.

And the last time you tried to purchase private health insurance with a pre-existing condition was...when?

It's also the mentality of - get this - if you don't have the money, you can't afford it. Rather than going on credit, if there's no money in the grouch bag, then you do without.

And I get the "legal drug pushers" mentality - you go to the doctor, you explain 1/8 of 1/4 of 1/16 of your symptoms, s/he says, "Oh, you have ... " and shoves a bunch of samples at you and a prescription for the latest and greatest that the drug rep who just left through the back door just dropped off and hustles you out the door with a pat on the head. Why get at the root cause? We can just give you Newly-to-Market Miracle Drug C(tm)!

Fun fact - did you know that any meds YOU'RE taking that say "Mylan" are a West Virginia product?

uh, yeah, this is the American way. This is the point. Health care is such a pain in the ass that we avoid it until we're seriously farked

what_now: Ryan2065: I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

No, but his attitude was...bizzare. He's opposed to doctors in general, but was happy that they treated him well when he had an emergency due to his lack of preventive care.

It's a really weird article. CNN FAIL.

Pretty simple. He likes emergency doctors and surgeons, but not family doctors.

Korovyov: As if that were the main difference.

It's the main point of access.

If you care to test this theory, walk into the waiting area of a private practice M.D. declare you need to be seen but have no money.

Doctors don't read medical journals, yo. They read the Wall Street Journal. Medicine is just a great way to raise capital.

anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.

You got some extra jobs lying around that will actually cover regular bills for a place to live and healthy food to eat?

/several hundred thousand people in America would like to talk to you...

I have a new game for us all to play. Let's call it Natural Selection. Here's the rules.
Everyone gets free health care from top to bottom.
You must visit you Dr(s) at least once a year.
All employers are mandated to give off so many hours/days per year for health maintenance.
You must follow your Dr's orders.
You are entitiled to 2nd and 3rd opinions.
Failure to visit or follow orders results in your loss of free healthcare for 2 years and you are *NOT* entitled to *any* emergency care.
Winner goes on to reproduce. Loser dies.
Ready? Play!

I presently live in West Virginia. And yes, this happens. A fellow I work with had a tooth break -he went to a university dental school and is paying it off $10 at a time. Another guy just used pliers and Jack Daniel's.

Of course, I can see a doctor any time I please. For free. House calls, no less. But I suppose not everyone has my idea for a health plan.

/owns two duplexes
//one apartment contains an E.R. resident and his veterinary science-major wife
///we cut their rent for medical advice and little procedures like vaccinations
////they're dear friends and often join us for the other sort of shots

Korovyov: bunner: Korovyov: bunner: this just in,

medicine for money, and quite a staggering amount of money at that, keeps rich people healthy. The poor, not so much.

Because lifestyle makes no difference? The well-off and well-educated have similar diets, similar exercise habits, similar awareness of their own health issues (and are less likely to distrust doctors as 'legal drug pushers' as does one of the two subjects of the article), as the less well-off? It's just pills?

I can see the vague outline of your strawman but it keeps falling into the mud.

Here's your claim: medicine keeps rich people healthy. As if that were the main difference.

His actual claim is that a for-profit health care system disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

ricbach229: Ryan2065: what_now: Carl shrugs at the suggestion that more frequent visits to the doctor might have detected his heart troubles sooner or helped him avoid major trauma through changes in his diet, drugs or even angioplasty or other procedures that, though expensive, are dwarfed by the cost of the helicopter ride and emergency surgery.

Thanks, Carl. You're not part of the problem AT ALL...

Er, he didn't have health insurance and because of back surgeries money was tight. People living paycheck to paycheck don't always have $200 for a doctor's visit. I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

Where do you go to the doctor? I asked my doctor the other day how much an office visit is if I dind't have insurance and it's a flat $70. Even with some blood work it's barely be over a hundred.
Depends on your dr and locality. 70 bucks is a lot of money.
As for mass health plan getting more expensive, of course the costs will significantly rise there, the merchants don't want it to succeed. What a better way to force the plan to fail (behind the scenes) then say , see it failed, you need us.

Befuddled: I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

It could be Lupus.

anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

spasemunki: His actual claim is that a for-profit health care system disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

*clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap*

/touchdown

cuzsis: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.

You got some extra jobs lying around that will actually cover regular bills for a place to live and healthy food to eat?

/several hundred thousand people in America would like to talk to you...

I hear Pizza Hut is hiring.

Also, as someone who self-insures in WV, I pay, for a 45-YO woman and a 50-YO man, $507.00 per month with $5,000.00 per person deductible - let me state that again, FIVE THOUSAND PER PERSON DEDUCTIBLE. With one small pre-existing condition of a bad thyroid, which costs perhaps $150.00 a year to manage, including the yearly check-up and blood tests and meds.

And no, I'm not moving. I could no more live in the city than I could grow wings and fly to the moon.

seems fitting...

bunner: Korovyov: As if that were the main difference.

It's the main point of access.

If you care to test this theory, walk into the waiting area of a private practice M.D. declare you need to be seen but have no money.

Doctors don't read medical journals, yo. They read the Wall Street Journal. Medicine is just a great way to raise capital.

FTA:

It is the dilemma Dr. Sarah Chouinard faces every day.

She runs a community health clinic in Clay, where nearly 30 percent of the population falls below the poverty line and at least 35 percent of the residents lack health insurance.

"We offer sliding fee payment scales," she said during a clinic tour. "If they are at 100 percent federal poverty level or worse, they owe us $5 only, and the rest of their care is waived."

You were saying?

This isn't unique to Clay. For instance, there's a non-profit physician's cooperative in the much more expensive area I live, that provides discounts (all the way down to free) for the less than well-off. They're a pretty darn good practice, too, not a hole in the wall operation; I don't have to be cost-sensitive and use them anyway.

anniepoonanny: I hear Pizza Hut is hiring.

Yeah, which one?

You may not have noticed this but the "you poor people are all just lazy and can live WONDERFULLY on sh*t money if you try!" troll is sorta clapped out, hon.

Even when you cap it off with "NATURALLY, *I* don't have to because I am wildly successful". : )

bunner: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.

Yeah! Jobs are just falling out of the motherfuc*ing trees, these days, you lazy hillbillies!

Especially in "TheMineClosedTwentyYearsAgo" WVA.

*facepalm*

People do not realize that in the mountains, these people have even less of an opportunity than kids in the ghetto, at least in the ghetto you are near a city and assistance. In the mountains you have to travel a day to get to their city with assistance.

American Hollow

Highly recommended if you want to see how dirt poor people live.

cuzsis: There was a really shaitty mechanic in my town in WI when I lived there. He'd been sued I don't know how many times for faulty work. Yet he was still in business and getting clients. Why?

He was the only game in town.

You may have a crappy doc, but it may be that the general medical help in your area sucks. My grandparents deal with that in AZ unfortunately...

I understand that very well, but as has been broached elsewhere in this thread, how much is your health worth to you? Is finding out if that nagging pain is in fact being caused by a tumor (not that I'm saying it is) worth the hassle of driving three hours each way to a better doctor? For a lot of people it's not, so the issue doesn't get taken care of until it's a crisis, and then it's everyone else's fault that they're in that situation.

bunner: anniepoonanny: I hear Pizza Hut is hiring.

Yeah, which one?

You may not have noticed this but the "you poor people are all just lazy and can live WONDERFULLY on sh*t money if you try!" troll is sorta clapped out, hon.

Even when you cap it off with "NATURALLY, *I* don't have to because I am wildly successful". : )

Poor people are lazy.

Hold on here...

So all of you are saying that there might be some benefits to having money?

And there are detriments to being poor?

Goddammnit, I wish someone would have told me sooner.

Korovyov: bunner: Korovyov: As if that were the main difference.

It's the main point of access.

If you care to test this theory, walk into the waiting area of a private practice M.D. declare you need to be seen but have no money.

Doctors don't read medical journals, yo. They read the Wall Street Journal. Medicine is just a great way to raise capital.

FTA:

It is the dilemma Dr. Sarah Chouinard faces every day.

She runs a community health clinic in Clay, where nearly 30 percent of the population falls below the poverty line and at least 35 percent of the residents lack health insurance.

"We offer sliding fee payment scales," she said during a clinic tour. "If they are at 100 percent federal poverty level or worse, they owe us $5 only, and the rest of their care is waived."

You were saying?

This isn't unique to Clay. For instance, there's a non-profit physician's cooperative in the much more expensive area I live, that provides discounts (all the way down to free) for the less than well-off. They're a pretty darn good practice, too, not a hole in the wall operation; I don't have to be cost-sensitive and use them anyway.

A community health clinic is not a private practice in the conventional sense; it's most likely a grant funded social service agency. Free and sliding-scale clinics can't scale to meet the actual need because there isn't sufficient funding behind them. In urban areas they're usually booked solid and have to turn people away. In rural areas, access to them is difficult because the people who need them often can't get to them because they can't drive or it's too far to travel. Funding streams for them are often dependent on grant funding which tends to make it easier to start programs than it is to keep them running

ZAZ: Massachusetts found that people who are forced to have health insurance don't go to the doctor more often than they went with no insurance. Free or fee, doctor visits aren't priorities for many people.

This. I saw plenty of dumbasses in Memphis that never went to the doctor for checkups, because they were doing fine. Oh sure, ten years ago some doc told them they might have a touch of the sugah, but they was a-ok.

Korovyov: If they are at 100 percent federal poverty level or worse, they owe us $5 only, and the rest of their care is waived."

And of course, most people AREN'T eligible for that 100% poverty level waiver because ethey have enough money for food and gas to GET to the clinic.

You're missing the point.

Let me lay it out for you.

FU*K charity, FU*K greed as a motivator to practice medicine and FU*K handouts or having to stay poor to stay alive. Health care costs are a lie, and are so far out of hand of COURSE the rich benefit disproportionately from profit oriented health care. They can afford 13.00 Tylenols and and 6,000.00 test procedures that burn up about 7.00 in electric, 250.00 in labour and 120.00 in equipment and materials.

anniepoonanny: Poor people are lazy.

uh huh

2/10

bye, Ayn

keithrogan: If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

If you can't afford those things, then you're not working and thus eligible for medicare.

The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.


What kind of chain smoking, vacationing taking, super-alcoholic are you that you think it's affordable to insure a family nowadays? Did you know it costs a healthy family almost $14,000 a year to keep insured? That's not pocket change for most Americans when the mean income is $40k a year.

trappedspirit: Yo, subby-moron, there's a difference between just "ignoring" health issues and not having them treated because you can't afford it. A really big difference.

Yep. Some years back, I worked in an urgent care. A lady came in one day because she'd been having symptoms for some time - months and months. She was a single mother who worked full time but had no insurance, since her company didn't offer health care benefits. She didn't make a ton of money and with kids, car, groceries, and bills couldn't afford to visit a doctor and pay for loads of diagnostic tests. Finally, she came to the urgent care because she just couldn't stand it anymore.

She died of colon cancer about a month later.

That's one story. Multiply her by thousands and thousands more.

I've got insurance and hope on a daily basis that my disk doesn't herniate again, because even with coverage, I paid several thousand dollars out of my own pocket the first time it happened. Naturally since then, my insurance has reduced the amount it will pay, while increasing the amount my husband and I pay.

It's a freaking disgrace.

Kludge: Hold on here...

So all of you are saying that there might be some benefits to having money?

And there are detriments to being poor?

Goddammnit, I wish someone would have told me sooner.


I'll be damned, Bernie Madoff gets internet in prison... And free healthcare.

Thanks, Bernie.

spasemunki: A community health clinic is not a private practice in the conventional sense; it's most likely a grant funded social service agency.

OMG SOCIALISM

basemetal: Much like dentistry, over half of the medical problems in this country are preventable.

I'll brush my teeth but I'll be damned if you get me to floss.

Dr. Nick Riviera: cuzsis: There was a really shaitty mechanic in my town in WI when I lived there. He'd been sued I don't know how many times for faulty work. Yet he was still in business and getting clients. Why?

He was the only game in town.

You may have a crappy doc, but it may be that the general medical help in your area sucks. My grandparents deal with that in AZ unfortunately...

I understand that very well, but as has been broached elsewhere in this thread, how much is your health worth to you? Is finding out if that nagging pain is in fact being caused by a tumor (not that I'm saying it is) worth the hassle of driving three hours each way to a better doctor? For a lot of people it's not, so the issue doesn't get taken care of until it's a crisis, and then it's everyone else's fault that they're in that situation.

Depends on if you can afford the 3hr drive (gas, time off of work, and the bills.)

I'm having to put off figuring out a niggling digestive issue (my gi tract periodically just stops working...more or less.) but the costs of tests that they'd have to run is more than we can afford right now with hubby out of work and me on reduced hours plus a kiddo to take care of.

My dad was going to help me a bit right up until he had to go to the ER himself for gi issues (more diverticulitus, yay.) and had someone hit his car on the side. Now what little extra cash he had managed to carefully save up is completely blown.

Sometimes, life just sucks.

/had to put off dental care for a month for the kiddo too, as it was either that or be able to eat/pay rent that month.
//being poor sucks.

Nocens: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

There's a LensCrafters in your local mall that would have seen you on a walk-in basis. Why wouldn't you just go there? Heck, even Wal-Mart has an optometrist.

anniepoonanny: cuzsis: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.

You got some extra jobs lying around that will actually cover regular bills for a place to live and healthy food to eat?

/several hundred thousand people in America would like to talk to you...

I hear Pizza Hut is hiring.

Pizza hut pay the bills where you live? Because it doesn't over here...

/either that or it was a reading comprehension fail.
//feeding time anyway...

spasemunki: His actual claim is that a for-profit health care system disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

His actual claim was that it keeps them healthy. Which isn't really true; if you neglect yourself for decades, money or not you aren't getting a new body. You can't buy a cure for diabetes; you can't yet clone a heart for a truly compatible transplant; we aren't particularly good at building eyes, yet, either. If your bones are fragile from a lack of calcium, you're not getting a new skeleton. And so forth.

It may be *easier* for a well-off person to stay healthy, because they're more likely to have more recreational time (for exercise, say) and to live in a neighborhood that is more helpful (safe areas to jog/bike, actual grocery stores, what not) but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the health system being for-profit.

bunner: I can see the vague outline of your strawman but it keeps falling into the mud.

This, made me LOL, good work!

Also, how is it that it used to be you could see a doc and they'd let you pay it off a bit at a time, but now that's pretty much unheard of?

anniepoonanny: Poor people are lazy.

I'd pay damn good money to see you sent to West Virginia up to coal mine country and then say this.

mmagdalene: keithrogan: The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.

And the last time you tried to purchase private health insurance with a pre-existing condition was...when?

I paid for my health insurance before I had a condition. Now I have several conditions, but I'm covered because I made the sacrifices to get health insurance when I was younger. That's what smart people do. If you weren't smart enough when you were younger, don't ask me to sacrifice AGAIN to pay for your care. If you can't work, go on SSN disability. If you can work, suck it up and buy health insurance. And yeah, you may have to pay out of pocket until your waiting period is past. Tough luck, but I don't feel like doubling my health care costs, to cover the both of us.

The one thing no one seems to be addressing has nothing to do with getting people covered or the cost. It has to do with the culture we have in this country when it comes to going to the doctor. Just because we have health insu doesn't mean we'll go in for check-ups every year. Especially men. There's a large number of people that don't go to the doctor unless something is wrong with them. Changing that culture is going to take a long time.

If we do get some sort of univeral coverage or govt option, there's no assurance that people will actually go to the doctor for regular check-ups. And if they don't, what do you suggest we do about it? Send some govt goon to their door & drag them to the clinic? That's doubtful. Or will the bureaucrats say "Sorry, pal. You didn't come in for annual check-ups so your warranty is void. You'll have to pay for this out of pocket."?

Anyone? Bueller?

highwayrun: Nocens: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

There's a LensCrafters in your local mall that would have seen you on a walk-in basis. Why wouldn't you just go there? Heck, even Wal-Mart has an optometrist.

This smacks of utter and total bullshiat. Did this dope try to go to a GP for a glaucoma test?

ban_sidhe: trappedspirit: Yo, subby-moron, there's a difference between just "ignoring" health issues and not having them treated because you can't afford it. A really big difference.

Yep. Some years back, I worked in an urgent care. A lady came in one day because she'd been having symptoms for some time - months and months. She was a single mother who worked full time but had no insurance, since her company didn't offer health care benefits. She didn't make a ton of money and with kids, car, groceries, and bills couldn't afford to visit a doctor and pay for loads of diagnostic tests. Finally, she came to the urgent care because she just couldn't stand it anymore.

She died of colon cancer about a month later.

That's one story. Multiply her by thousands and thousands more.

I've got insurance and hope on a daily basis that my disk doesn't herniate again, because even with coverage, I paid several thousand dollars out of my own pocket the first time it happened. Naturally since then, my insurance has reduced the amount it will pay, while increasing the amount my husband and I pay.

It's a freaking disgrace.

Dang that sucks...

/hoping it's not me.

Our health care system faces multiple problems.

1) When children are exercising less, eating more sugar, and straining their brains on video games instead of something productive, we get a generation of WoW addicts with few skills usable in the workplace along with heart and diabetic problems. Preventative health must be funded, encouraged, and developed if we are to slow the trend down.

2) There are people who simply choose not to take care of themselves. Diabetics who eat sugary foods regularly, people who choose not to exercise at all despite being obese and deconditioned, and many others who end up having expensive hospital stays paid for by us multiple times a year because of poorly controlled but preventable conditions. What is the punishment for these folks if all they get is a slap on the wrist and little/no cost if the govt picks up the check?

3) Under a rationed system there will be notable changes to how the end-of-life care is handled. Right now this is where lots of cost comes from, and families are usually left with the ultimate decisions. In a centralized system it will often be the state that says when the plug is pulled and when it is not, especially when costs go up.

highwayrun: Nocens: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

There's a LensCrafters in your local mall that would have seen you on a walk-in basis. Why wouldn't you just go there? Heck, even Wal-Mart has an optometrist.


They sent me to the specialists years ago. I have a birth defect in my eyes. Something in the back didn't close properly in both of them. Mall doctors look in, go WTF, and won't finish the exam.

Nocens: Kludge: Hold on here...

So all of you are saying that there might be some benefits to having money?

And there are detriments to being poor?

Goddammnit, I wish someone would have told me sooner.


I'll be damned, Bernie Madoff gets internet in prison... And free healthcare.

Thanks, Bernie.

My prison cell is larger and better decorated than your apartment.

keithrogan: I paid for my health insurance before I had a condition. Now I have several conditions, but I'm covered because I made the sacrifices to get health insurance when I was younger. That's what smart people do.

Sure...and smart people never get laid off and lose their insurance after developing "conditions."

keithrogan: Tough luck, but I don't feel like doubling my health care costs, to cover the both of us.

Having people not covered is what'll double your premium.

Fano: This smacks of utter and total bullshiat. Did this dope try to go to a GP for a glaucoma test?

probably an opthamologist

Nocens: highwayrun: Nocens: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

There's a LensCrafters in your local mall that would have seen you on a walk-in basis. Why wouldn't you just go there? Heck, even Wal-Mart has an optometrist.


They sent me to the specialists years ago. I have a birth defect in my eyes. Something in the back didn't close properly in both of them. Mall doctors look in, go WTF, and won't finish the exam.

So you have a coloboma, big deal.

ban_sidhe: keithrogan: I paid for my health insurance before I had a condition. Now I have several conditions, but I'm covered because I made the sacrifices to get health insurance when I was younger. That's what smart people do.

Sure...and smart people never get laid off and lose their insurance after developing "conditions."

Last time I was laid-off I purchased a health insurance plan. Of course I have savings and no debt. But hey, we can't all live within our means right?

Kludge: Hold on here...

So all of you are saying that there might be some benefits to having money?

And there are detriments to being poor?

Goddammnit, I wish someone would have told me sooner.

I guess the truth of the matter asserted is that capitalism creates winners and losers, the more capitalist the system, the greater the disparity in number and degree between these winners and losers.

I suppose it would be germaine at this point to note that the government has many public works projects, wars and other expenses which seem to merit funding, and that many of our citizens believe that the priority of a decent, accessible health system for all americans is as pressing or greater than our need to, say, maintain a military presence in the middle east, or subsidize our banking industry, or maintain our federal parkland.

You see, the simple summation of the argument FOR universal health care is that if we treat it as a necessity(not a right, a necessity), than our populace would be more productive, have longer lives (and spend more of those longer lives working), and waste less energy on the recovery from illness if our societal model supported a more sensible approach to medicine than the one we have now. Think about how much money/other resources would be saved by minimization of downtime from illness.

Think about solutions, and implementation of same, to the problems we as a society face, rather than just snarkily reiterating the tired and pathetic american virtue of making money.

Korovyov: spasemunki: His actual claim is that a for-profit health care system disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

His actual claim was that it keeps them healthy. Which isn't really true; if you neglect yourself for decades, money or not you aren't getting a new body. You can't buy a cure for diabetes; you can't yet clone a heart for a truly compatible transplant; we aren't particularly good at building eyes, yet, either. If your bones are fragile from a lack of calcium, you're not getting a new skeleton. And so forth.

It may be *easier* for a well-off person to stay healthy, because they're more likely to have more recreational time (for exercise, say) and to live in a neighborhood that is more helpful (safe areas to jog/bike, actual grocery stores, what not) but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the health system being for-profit.

"keeps them healthy" was not an absolute literal claim that for-profit healthcare preserves them from all ills regardless of what they do with the rest of their lives. The idea that it's only for-profit healthcare that keeps wealthy people healthier than poor people is obviously stupid. The idea that inadequate access to care among the poor has no affect on their health is equally stupid.

Kludge: Of course I have savings and no debt

You can have all the savings in the world and still be denied health insurance.

keithrogan:
If you can't work, go on SSN disability. If you can work, suck it up and buy health insurance. And yeah, you may have to pay out of pocket until your waiting period is past. Tough luck, but I don't feel like doubling my health care costs, to cover the both of us.

In practice, if the uninsured are using the local ER for their primary care, or they're relying on SSI disability or Medicaid, you're indirectly paying for their health care anyway. And purchasing individual insurance can be expensive to the point of impossible. The only ways to not absorb that cost are

- let them go completely untreated (which would be presently illegal, and is dubious for multiple other reasons incl. purely practical -- contagious illnesses are good to treat fast, and people with no other options to buy a perceived necessity may well turn to crime to fund it)

- let them rely on private non-profits (which *can* be very good, but which don't exist everywhere, and which need to be funded by somebody else -- somewhat harder in a down economy when they're more likely to be needed)

- treat them, nobody pays for it and let the deficit spiral (which is generally illegal for state governments), which you will probably pay for rather indirectly

Ryan2065: Er, he didn't have health insurance and because of back surgeries money was tight. People living paycheck to paycheck don't always have $200 for a doctor's visit. I can't really say he is completely at fault here.

5$ visit
clearly you didnt read the article

but more importantly, why should I pay for emergency care for people and NOT pay for preventive care????

either let them die or force them into preventive care to save me money

namatad: either let them die or force them into preventive care to save me money

Mm. How would you force them? How would you set standards of minimum care (what, schedule for physical / dental / vision exams?), would transportation be provided, and how would you verify that they'd actually met those standards when somebody's being rolled into an ER? Massive national database + national ID cards?

bunner: They can afford 13.00 Tylenols and and 6,000.00 test procedures that burn up about 7.00 in electric, 250.00 in labour and 120.00 in equipment and materials.

um, idiot
that 13$ tylenol, pays for yours and the next 20 people who come to ER without insurance
that 6000$ test pays for your emergency test and the next 20 people who come to the er in cardiac arrest (with unknown insurance)

so what we could do, is next time you are in a car accident, before the ER treats you, we can spend time making CERTAIN that you will pay every penny

or, we continue the way we are ....

or we fix it ???

/hint: do you really think that hospitals are making PROFITS? in rural or poor areas??
/or, do we set a value on peoples lives and just not treat them if they cant pay?

I don't give a fu*k about your "political imperatives".

I din't give a fu*k not a fu*k not a single solitary fu*k about "GAH! CAPITALISM!" or "OH NOES! TEH SOCIALISMS!" or any of that hogwash, pass the buck, head up your ass so far you can chew your own food twice, pseudo-ideological bullsh*t.

Solutions. Results. Useful ones. Give me those or step the hell out of the way of the people who can.

The rest is just people shilling for what feeds THEIR bulldog while their neighbour's dog starves. Shame on you.

namatad: um, idiot
that 13$ tylenol, pays for yours and the next 20 people who come to ER without insurance

Um, idiot, it shouldn't HAVE to.

And as far as your manners, go fu*k yourself, you mouthy ass punk.

sideways.

Kludge:
Last time I was laid-off I purchased a health insurance plan. Of course I have savings and no debt. But hey, we can't all live within our means right?

If "living within our means" is defined as somehow managing to own one's house and car outright and having no children or pets, then you're probably right. Most of us can't live within our means.

cuzsis: Depends on if you can afford the 3hr drive (gas, time off of work, and the bills.)

I'm having to put off figuring out a niggling digestive issue (my gi tract periodically just stops working...more or less.) but the costs of tests that they'd have to run is more than we can afford right now with hubby out of work and me on reduced hours plus a kiddo to take care of.

My dad was going to help me a bit right up until he had to go to the ER himself for gi issues (more diverticulitus, yay.) and had someone hit his car on the side. Now what little extra cash he had managed to carefully save up is completely blown.

Sometimes, life just sucks.

/had to put off dental care for a month for the kiddo too, as it was either that or be able to eat/pay rent that month.
//being poor sucks.

I think we're really off on a tangent from my original post about finding a doctor who takes your problems seriously, but I can sympathize. But my point still stands about people choosing other things to be more important than some aspect of their health. You, for example, have decided that keeping a roof over your head is more important than whatever GI problem you may have. I don't mean this in any sort of cruel or judgmental way, but as a simple statement of fact. Practically everybody does this, and if they're not doing it for lack of money, they're doing it for lack of time.

One of the many reasons that we're screwed with our current system is that people biatch, "I don't want my tax dollars paying for some poor working person's insulin!" Well that's great, except that impoverished person's diabetes went untreated and now they need a kidney transplant, which of course has to be paid through Medicaid. So instead of the taxpayers spending $100 a month on insulin, they're paying $150,000 grand for the operation and $500 a month for immunosuppressants*. Way to go, geniuses.

To fix our system, we need to either go full Randian and let poor people die in the streets or implement some sort of baseline universal health care system. The whole "have your cake and eat it too" system we have currently is simply not sustainable.


*numbers are made up, but you get the point

Korovyov: namatad: either let them die or force them into preventive care to save me money

Mm. How would you force them? How would you set standards of minimum care (what, schedule for physical / dental / vision exams?), would transportation be provided, and how would you verify that they'd actually met those standards when somebody's being rolled into an ER? Massive national database + national ID cards?

sry, was on a rant
and yah, I have read about some companies setting premiums based on how healthy the employee is.
so fat asses like me would have to pay more and health nuts like my boss would pay less.
would give me great incentive to get in shape and stay there

the companies have saved money on healthcare, the employees, on average are now healthier ....

but, the bottom line is that we are already paying for healthcare for the people who cant afford it, I would rather that we be a little smarter about HOW we do it, which saves tons of dollars in the long run

/sigh, either way, my dollars are getting spent helping people who dont have the money (via taxes and higher prices for my care)

bunner: namatad: um, idiot
that 13$ tylenol, pays for yours and the next 20 people who come to ER without insurance

Um, idiot, it shouldn't HAVE to.

And as far as your manners, go fu*k yourself, you mouthy ass punk.
sideways.

hahahahaha
1) you dont HAVE to, dont go to the hospital and they wont charge you for anything
2) manners? from the tard who cant even spell fark?

Fano: Nocens: highwayrun: Nocens: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

There's a LensCrafters in your local mall that would have seen you on a walk-in basis. Why wouldn't you just go there? Heck, even Wal-Mart has an optometrist.


They sent me to the specialists years ago. I have a birth defect in my eyes. Something in the back didn't close properly in both of them. Mall doctors look in, go WTF, and won't finish the exam.

So you have a coloboma, big deal.


Apparently it is if I can't get a regular eye guy to finish an exam, chief.

Dr. Nick Riviera: or implement some sort of baseline universal health care system

I remember reading about oregon doing this a number of years back.
they ranked procedures, cost/benefits, preventive vs reactive.
they drew a line, below this, we wont do the procedure, we have run out of money.
people complained about the rank order, they made some changes, but in the end, they spent their money a litte more wisely

and yah
we should pay for the insulin and not the transplant
sry, but no matter HOW we fund this, we dont have an infinite amount of money
nor are people immortal

hard, but true, if you are getting FREE care, it is crazy to expect infinite care

ban_sidhe: If "living within our means" is defined as somehow managing to own one's house and car outright and having no children or pets, then you're probably right. Most of us can't live within our means.

If Americans started living within their means, several, bullsh*t, made up, fly-by-night financial industries would go *f0op* and cease to exist.

Jesus Christ, the federal government can't even manage to keep the lights on without amassing more debt than the universe has stars.

We just shouldn't pay for metformin or any other meds that are needed due to a completely preventable disease, nor their transplant operation.

Sounds unfair? Well, maybe it will make the next person get on a treadmill or eat some veggies for once.

It's hardly fair to make those who are responsible pay for the irresponsible.

The_Terminator: We just shouldn't pay for metformin or any other meds that are needed due to a completely preventable disease, nor their transplant operation.

You realize a lot of transplants aren't required on account of preventable conditions right?

BobtheFascist: Or will the bureaucrats say "Sorry, pal. You didn't come in for annual check-ups so your warranty is void. You'll have to pay for this out of pocket."?

you know, this is HARD thing to say, but sure. let's do it.
set up the "system"
give everyone who is planning on using the FREE system, say 1,2,3 years to go to the doctor.
when they show up 10 years later in cardiac arrest, diabetic, in full renal failure, and then say "dont like pill machines", we save ourselves a ton of money by saying, "we offered you free care for life and you said dont need it. well now you need it and you die. sry. too stupid to live."

/yah, we would probably LIE about meeting the DEADLINE. have tons of grace periods and amnesties. but, after a few public cases of "too stupid to live" people would get the picture.
/"too stupid to live" would make a great reality show.

WhyteRaven74: You realize a lot of transplants aren't required on account of preventable conditions right?

Yes I do.

However, the example was a diabetic whose heart went kaput. DM2 = preventable.

Hagbardr: basemetal: Much like dentistry, over half of the medical problems in this country are preventable.

I'll brush my teeth but I'll be damned if you get me to floss.

Just floss the ones you want to keep.

WhyteRaven74: You realize a lot of transplants aren't required on account of preventable conditions right?

would be interesting to see what the numbers actually are.
heart transplants due to congential/genetic causes and transplants due be a fat tub of lard who did do the right thing

how many lung problems/cancers are caused by smoking versus environmental/genetic ...

/why should my insurance be higher to cover people who smoke?
/sigh, at least we are talking about this and trying to fix it ... and yes I know that the government will screw it up, but ... can it possibly get WORSE than it currently is?

The_Terminator: However, the example was a diabetic whose heart went kaput. DM2 = preventable.

I'm diabetic. 20 units of Novolin 70/30 a day, forever.

I eat good, get exercise when I can ("desk" job) take care of myself, don't smoke... My toes are already numb from diabetic neuropathy... and I have to use a scrub brush on them that could remove paint just to keep the blood flowing.

You'd be surprised what is and isn't preventable.

Oh, and the diabetes was courtesy of my mother's side of the family, where it's rampant. Sorry, genetic predisposition isn't quite actually preventable.

Dr. Nick Riviera: To fix our system, we need to either go full Randian and let poor people die in the streets or implement some sort of baseline universal health care system. The whole "have your cake and eat it too" system we have currently is simply not sustainable.

In the case of the TFA (well, the region discussed) perhaps the main problem is low population density + poverty + difficulty transportation. There are inexpensive clinics there; however, getting people to them is not necessarily easy. There is a hospital in that area, vaguely, but it's a helicopter ride away -- very expensive. It would, presumably, be insanely expensive to build a mass-transport system out to everybody's house there. Subsidizing and encouraging a move to (probably not already existing and thus needing to be built) accessible, affordable housing closer to essential services (if not *really* near by, then at least connected through... shuttle bus or something like that) might have to be part of the solution. This is probably not the only community with a similar problem.

Other areas may have other problems. In MA, it's more the lack of GPs than insurance (although there are still uninsured); in other areas, there may be excessive capacity that's being used inefficiently (see Medicare studies noting cost increasing with capacity, but not necessarily with effect). The GP-vs-specialist balance may require other measures to address. There are neighborhoods where fast food is ubiquitous while remotely healthy fare is rare. If kids are spending much more time on homework than before (recall reading that they do, but could easily be wrong), they may be getting too little exercise. And so forth. Not particularly confident in applicability of large-scale, top-down solutions, especially ones that focus solely on the health care system itself.

dipdunk: we get a generation of WoW addicts with few skills usable in the workplace

/lol
I resemble that remark.

strangely enough, some of those wow addicts are actually learning useful skillz

people learning to lead a 25 or 40 man raid is educational to say the least
watching people learn to run a guild with dozens of different goals and personalities
well, at least SOME of us are learning things from video games

I love the health care debate. The pro choice people are pro life and the pro life people are pro death.

Fabulous hypocrisy.

Befuddled: I have constant pains on the right side of my abdomen. I would really like to get my doctor to take it seriously but his attitude is the same as all the other doctors I've met; if it won't kill me within 48 hours, they won't do anything as they are in the clear liability-wise. They probably avoid doing any sort of test as then that could be construed as acknowledging the potential seriousness in a future trial; without tests there's always deniability as they can claim I didn't make the problem known. Even with insurance, there's no preventive medical care in the US, at least not in my experience.

um, wow
1) get a new doctor?
2) report your current doctor to the AMA
3) I have insurance, get annual physicals and tons of "preventive" care

FrankenPC: I love the health care debate. The pro choice people are pro life and the pro life people are pro death.

Fabulous hypocrisy.

wow
you win the thread!!
/seriously, hadnt thought of this

SynthLord: TFA: Carl and Elizabeth Walls share that concern. They have worked and paid taxes all their lives and say that if the government is going to spend billions on health care reform, then covering people like them "should rate pretty high," Elizabeth said. But, like Chouinard, they worry about falling through the cracks. "You know, we have worked all our lives and tried, and we can't seem to get any program that works for us," Elizabeth Walls said. Their worries might not make sense to those promising universal, or near-universal, access in Washington.

Working hard and paying your taxes all your life doesn't get you squat.

Did you save your money, or did you spend it all? Did you invest anything, or did you just expect that there would be a pile of Medicare and Social Security money waiting for you as some kind of door prize for existing? Did you look into every health insurance plan available, or did you just accept what your employer(s) offered you?

Working hard is great, but you have to do more than break your back at the mill for decades on end if you want the happiness that comes with being able to survive a major health issue. And if you're stupid enough to believe that all that money you paid in taxes was going to pay you back someday, you've been suckered by one of the greatest political lies in our nation's history. Every time I saved enough money I went to the club/bar to spend it all. Isn't that why you save money for a week? A week is a long time.

The government does not, never has, and will not care for you. Politicians only care about what you're worth to them in tax revenue or political capital. Obama loves me! Change!

Your survival, health, and long-term prosperity is your own responsibility, no one else's. Depend on others -- particularly self-serving politicians -- and you're going to get screwed. Everyone else owes me something.

/I agree with you
//Edited to reflect popular opinion

Korovyov: It would, presumably, be insanely expensive to build a mass-transport system out to everybody's house there. Subsidizing and encouraging a move to (probably not already existing and thus needing to be built) accessible, affordable housing closer to essential services (if not *really* near by, then at least connected through... shuttle bus or something like that) might have to be part of the solution. This is probably not the only community with a similar problem.

Back before all somebody had to do to eradicate something useful from our lives was to smirk haughtily and say "nobody does THAT anymore", there used to be house calls.

Doctors came to you.

Here's a plan:

A bunch of old school buses, (cheap, built like tanks for the snowflakes and diesel powered and easily fitted with generators) laid out with an array of medical gear and staffed, per bus, according to what it did. Dentist bus, x-ray bus, diabetic bus, pulmonary and kidney treatment bus, trauma and ER triage bus...

Get it?

Put some of this stuff just lying around rusting to use and get people with an interest in DOING something they studied for instead of finding a way to immediately make enough money to distance themselves from those who NEED them to practice what they studied, and do something concrete and useful that doesn't cost a fortune.

Oh.. wait..

There's no quick buck in that.

Certainly not the kind you get from doing 7,000.00 tests at huge hospitals with a huge - and mostly made up - overhead.

bunner: A bunch of old school buses, (cheap, built like tanks for the snowflakes and diesel powered and easily fitted with generators) laid out with an array of medical gear and staffed, per bus, according to what it did. Dentist bus, x-ray bus, diabetic bus, pulmonary and kidney treatment bus, trauma and ER triage bus...

Perhaps possible, but if the physicians are spending time traveling to patients, that's time they're not dealing with walk-ins and the like. Seems less efficient in the long run.

Korovyov: Perhaps possible, but if the physicians are spending time traveling to patients, that's time they're not dealing with walk-ins and the like. Seems less efficient in the long run

Actually, no, because there will still be a walk in brick and mortar building for a clinic wherever the hell that building already is and it will do what it does for those blessed with proximity while the practitioners in those ever so useful, goldurn hippie buses fling themselves into the weeds to heal those who cannot heal themselves nor drag their bee hinds to said clinic.

The healing and treatment, cost scale studies and logistic study opportunities alone are awesome on this model.

And maybe grandma will make it to Christmas. : )

FrankenPC: I love the health care debate. The pro choice people are pro life and the pro life people are pro death.

Fabulous hypocrisy.

Nice one! Did you come up with that? Because I would like to use it, and I like to give credit where it's due.

bunner: Actually, no, because there will still be a walk in brick and mortar building for a clinic wherever the hell that building already is and it will do what it does for those blessed with proximity while the practitioners in those ever so useful, goldurn hippie buses fling themselves into the weeds to heal those who cannot heal themselves nor drag their bee hinds to said clinic.

Hm, true. It occurs to me that it's actually been done (at least partly, on a small local scale) -- some RotaCare clinics have a mobile unit meant for treating minor illnesses. Volunteer staff, funded by local money or from foundation grants (it's apparently against RotaCare policy to request funding from federal or state governments).

bunner: 20 units of Novolin 70/30 a day, forever.

Ask your doctor about Lantus and Novolin; they'll keep your sugar lower, longer without the rollercoastering that Novolin can do to you. And srsly, I was taken on 70/30 years ago and then my new doctor was all like, "who prescribes this old stuff anymore". There are better treatments out there now...provided you can afford them, of course. Novolin is cheap.

Well when you can only afford to go when it is an emergency you don't really have much choice.

The_Terminator: WhyteRaven74: You realize a lot of transplants aren't required on account of preventable conditions right?

Yes I do.

However, the example was a diabetic whose heart went kaput. DM2 = preventable.

I'm a type 2 diabetic thanks to 2 pregnancies with gestational diabetes (not a preventable form of the condition) and a family history of type 2 diabetes (usually hit after 70 years old but not for me) but thanks for making us all out to be fat, lazy farks.

Alicious: The_Terminator: WhyteRaven74: You realize a lot of transplants aren't required on account of preventable conditions right?

Yes I do.

However, the example was a diabetic whose heart went kaput. DM2 = preventable.

I'm a type 2 diabetic thanks to 2 pregnancies with gestational diabetes (not a preventable form of the condition) and a family history of type 2 diabetes (usually hit after 70 years old but not for me) but thanks for making us all out to be fat, lazy farks.

Well, pregnancy is preventable...

/mostly joking
//mostly

Dr. Nick Riviera: Alicious: The_Terminator: WhyteRaven74: You realize a lot of transplants aren't required on account of preventable conditions right?

Yes I do.

However, the example was a diabetic whose heart went kaput. DM2 = preventable.

I'm a type 2 diabetic thanks to 2 pregnancies with gestational diabetes (not a preventable form of the condition) and a family history of type 2 diabetes (usually hit after 70 years old but not for me) but thanks for making us all out to be fat, lazy farks.

Well, pregnancy is preventable...

/mostly joking
//mostly

Got knocked the 1st time using 2 forms of birth control... Fear my ovaries!

I live in Canada and don't have to worry, so I'm blah, blah, blah...

No really, we have a single payer system, private companies pay for the little things, but as a recent graduate working full time with no private plan, I get an automatic discount on meds, hold the receipt, and get the rest back on my tax return. I was in a car accident recently and all the fire department did was take my health card from my purse and I didn't pay anything for the ambulance and emergency room. My auto plan covered everything else down to the taxi ride from the hospital and new pair of pants (they had to cut through my pants, thought my leg was broken, it was just dislocated).

I saw a program on TV where some poor guy had been stabbed and taken to the hospital with the knife still in him, he was literally pleading with the staff not to take it out or help him because he didn't have insurance. When I hear that millions of Americans have no health insurance at all, I shake my head and cannot believe that there is no political will for universal health care.

Health care is like police services, the fire department and library, it should not be private, period. If you need medical care, you are not in a position to bargain, it's literally your money or your life.

Of course health care can be improved, done cheaper, etc. But what we DON'T need is a government run health care like they've got in Canada, Britian, etc. That would be even worse. And I'm afraid that's what Obama is trying to do.

Well, two farkers got DM2 by not being lazy fatasses, so I guess that means all of the literature and epidemiological data needs to be thrown out.

tony41454: Of course health care can be improved, done cheaper, etc. But what we DON'T need is a government run health care like they've got in Canada, Britian, etc. That would be even worse. And I'm afraid that's what Obama is trying to do.


I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Government health care would cost a lot of money. We just gave all the money we didn't have to Goldman Sachs.

The_Terminator: Well, two farkers got DM2 by not being lazy fatasses, so I guess that means all of the literature and epidemiological data needs to be thrown out.

Look, Atlas... I know you take perfect care of yourself and fastidiously brush 4 times a day and jog and work out and live on salads and vitamins and Evian, but, um.. if you ever get hit by a bus and you're not completely covered, you're gonna find sympathy between "sh*t" and "syphilis" in the Merriam Webster, yo, because you seem to have appointed yourself the arbiter of all who are deserving.

And frankly, blow it out your ass.

ALL human beings deserve health care without having to move into a bus shelter to get it.

Dr. Nick Riviera: cuzsis: Depends on if you can afford the 3hr drive (gas, time off of work, and the bills.)

I'm having to put off figuring out a niggling digestive issue (my gi tract periodically just stops working...more or less.) but the costs of tests that they'd have to run is more than we can afford right now with hubby out of work and me on reduced hours plus a kiddo to take care of.

My dad was going to help me a bit right up until he had to go to the ER himself for gi issues (more diverticulitus, yay.) and had someone hit his car on the side. Now what little extra cash he had managed to carefully save up is completely blown.

Sometimes, life just sucks.

/had to put off dental care for a month for the kiddo too, as it was either that or be able to eat/pay rent that month.
//being poor sucks.

I think we're really off on a tangent from my original post about finding a doctor who takes your problems seriously, but I can sympathize. But my point still stands about people choosing other things to be more important than some aspect of their health. You, for example, have decided that keeping a roof over your head is more important than whatever GI problem you may have. I don't mean this in any sort of cruel or judgmental way, but as a simple statement of fact. Practically everybody does this, and if they're not doing it for lack of money, they're doing it for lack of time.

One of the many reasons that we're screwed with our current system is that people biatch, "I don't want my tax dollars paying for some poor working person's insulin!" Well that's great, except that impoverished person's diabetes went untreated and now they need a kidney transplant, which of course has to be paid through Medicaid. So instead of the taxpayers spending $100 a month on insulin, they're paying $150,000 grand for the operation and $500 a month for immunosuppressants*. Way to go, geniuses.

To fix our system, we need to either go full Randian and let poor people die in the streets or implement some sort of baseline universal health care system. The whole "have your cake and eat it too" system we have currently is simply not sustainable.


*numbers are made up, but you get the point

Agreed. It's silly that people have to choose between two necessities of life: health care vs rent or food. Robbing Peter to pay Paul will not work and this practices needs to be stopped.

Sorry for misunderstanding your previous statement.

cuzsis: Dr. Nick Riviera: cuzsis: Depends on if you can afford the 3hr drive (gas, time off of work, and the bills.)

I'm having to put off figuring out a niggling digestive issue (my gi tract periodically just stops working...more or less.) but the costs of tests that they'd have to run is more than we can afford right now with hubby out of work and me on reduced hours plus a kiddo to take care of.

My dad was going to help me a bit right up until he had to go to the ER himself for gi issues (more diverticulitus, yay.) and had someone hit his car on the side. Now what little extra cash he had managed to carefully save up is completely blown.

Sometimes, life just sucks.

/had to put off dental care for a month for the kiddo too, as it was either that or be able to eat/pay rent that month.
//being poor sucks.

I think we're really off on a tangent from my original post about finding a doctor who takes your problems seriously, but I can sympathize. But my point still stands about people choosing other things to be more important than some aspect of their health. You, for example, have decided that keeping a roof over your head is more important than whatever GI problem you may have. I don't mean this in any sort of cruel or judgmental way, but as a simple statement of fact. Practically everybody does this, and if they're not doing it for lack of money, they're doing it for lack of time.

One of the many reasons that we're screwed with our current system is that people biatch, "I don't want my tax dollars paying for some poor working person's insulin!" Well that's great, except that impoverished person's diabetes went untreated and now they need a kidney transplant, which of course has to be paid through Medicaid. So instead of the taxpayers spending $100 a month on insulin, they're paying $150,000 grand for the operation and $500 a month for immunosuppressants*. Way to go, geniuses.

To fix our system, we need to either go full Randian and let poor people die in the streets or implement some sort of baseline universal health care system. The whole "have your cake and eat it too" system we have currently is simply not sustainable.


*numbers are made up, but you get the point

Agreed. It's silly that people have to choose between two necessities of life: health care vs rent or food. Robbing Peter to pay Paul will not work and this practices needs to be stopped.

Sorry for misunderstanding your previous statement.

These practices...

/time to get some sleep I think.
//oh, and the original post. Finding a doc to actually take you seriously can be very difficult depending on where you live. I'm lucky to live in an area with some good docs. But I know some people who live in areas where they don't have that. And they can't afford to go traveling long distances/out of state to do so.
///And honestly, having to do that just to find a good doc seems ridiculous when you sit down and think about it. Something wrong here, you think?

Giblet: tony41454: Of course health care can be improved, done cheaper, etc. But what we DON'T need is a government run health care like they've got in Canada, Britian, etc. That would be even worse. And I'm afraid that's what Obama is trying to do.


I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Government health care would cost a lot of money. We just gave all the money we didn't have to Goldman Sachs.

Ugh...don't remind me.

Then of course there are cases like one family member of mine. This person had insurance and saw a doctor. This person was then diagnosed and scheduled for surgery. This person had the surgery which turned out not to be a success. This person's insurance company then dropped their coverage and proceeded to send them the bill for the botched operation. This person who has a preexisting condition that no insurance company wants to touch and a bills for treatment that didn't work but obviously needs again.

Even if you have insurance, with our system, doesn't mean you're in the clear.

EL_FABREZ: keithrogan: If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

If you can't afford those things, then you're not working and thus eligible for medicare.

The real problem is that people don't want to buy health insurance, they want the rest of us to buy it for them.


What kind of chain smoking, vacationing taking, super-alcoholic are you that you think it's affordable to insure a family nowadays? Did you know it costs a healthy family almost $14,000 a year to keep insured? That's not pocket change for most Americans when the mean income is $40k a year.

This made me laugh. Well played sir!

/oh, and THIS!

To the Terminator: All the data points to a genetic component. I also got DM2 and have done plenty of reading and it is not CAUSED BY a simplistic weight to results relationship.... insulin resistance is still a mystery, or all fat people would have it and no normal weights would ever get it. After I got it, I asked a severely overweight friend of mine what the BG was for that person....normal. Seems so unfair, and we need to speak up when running into semi truths/negative prejudice.

First of all Type 2 Diabetes isn't even real diabetes. Oh no, you take some glucophage or some bullshiat. At least you still produce your own insulin.

Type 1 is NOT preventable, causes far more long term problems, and before the advent of insulin was a guaranteed death in a matter of weeks.

Being 23 with type 1 diabetes is fun, I get to look forward to all sorts of complications inevitably no matter what I do.

Nocens: Fano: Nocens: highwayrun: Nocens: anniepoonanny: If you can't take time off of work to take care of your damn self, then maybe you should focus your energy on getting a better job instead of complaining about your situation.


I dunno, I have a great job. I went to see a doctor for an eye exam. Preventive visit, glaucoma is a hereditary beast in my family. Took off work and was an hour early for the appointment. SEVEN hours later I finally got in. I reamed his ass, he didn't give a fark. He cost me 5k that day. He sent me his bill. I sent him mine.

Now the lawyers get to make the money.

There's a LensCrafters in your local mall that would have seen you on a walk-in basis. Why wouldn't you just go there? Heck, even Wal-Mart has an optometrist.


They sent me to the specialists years ago. I have a birth defect in my eyes. Something in the back didn't close properly in both of them. Mall doctors look in, go WTF, and won't finish the exam.

So you have a coloboma, big deal.


Apparently it is if I can't get a regular eye guy to finish an exam, chief.

I guess the way I should have said that was: then those guys are idiots.

eqtworld: Throughout most of the last 1000 years most great countries have had better healthcare and longer life expectancy than the average US citizen has today

and it was always free

lol wut

In this area, you are lucky if your employer lets you off of work for a doctor visit. My husband works for the #2 coal producer in the US, but if he takes a day off for a doc's appointment, he loses an entire day of pay. His company gives 1 personal day per year.

All of the doctors around here do not take our health insurance. But, all of the doctors 3.5 hours away from here do. Each visit we make is $150 without any testing. ER visits with a fever are covered 100%.

Thankfully we have a family friend who is a doc. He will see us for $10. But, due to my husband's job hours, he can never go to the doc.

It's so bad around here, our local hospital bought a restaurant, converted it to a free health screening center. Now anyone (with or without insurance) can walk on in, have a EKG, Cholesterol test, Diabetes screening, etc and not pay a dime.

Dental is an entirely different monster. It's outrageous. We have great dental, but our dentists around here charge more than insurance is willing to cover. I took my 3 kids to a pediatric dentist (since no other dentist here will accept kids under the age of 8) and we had cleanings, a tongue clipping, 1 filling and 2 baby teeth pulled. Insurance covered 80%, I had to pay $1500 right then....and was billed another $900 a month later. You know, even a regular checkup for all 3 (cleaning only) I had to pay close to $500 out of pocket. That's a hard lick every 6 months..not counting what it is for my husband and I.

However, if you do not work you can get Medicaid and have the state pay every dime. They'll even pay for gastric bypass AND plastic surgery afterwards. Sorta sucks, ya know?

Desterado: First of all Type 2 Diabetes isn't even real diabetes. Oh no, you take some glucophage or some bullshiat. At least you still produce your own insulin.

Type 1 is NOT preventable, causes far more long term problems, and before the advent of insulin was a guaranteed death in a matter of weeks.

Being 23 with type 1 diabetes is fun, I get to look forward to all sorts of complications inevitably no matter what I do.

Type 2 IS real. It is called Adult Onset and can happen a few different ways. 1- Steroid overuse. Not pump you up steroids...Steroids for inflammation of joints and what have you. This is the type that isn't considered 'real'
2- The pancreas starts crapping out in adults and doesn't function at full capacity. Eventually the pancreas can/will cease insulin production This is a problem. The body isn't producing sufficient insulin, therefore the patient needs insulin. This is considered just as real as type 1 (juvenile diabetes) And finally, obese patients can develop diabetes. There is so much fat stored, the excess sugar has no where to store. This creates a situation in which there is too much insulin. This type is not dependent on insulin injections

dipdunk:
3) Under a rationed system there will be notable changes to how the end-of-life care is handled. Right now this is where lots of cost comes from, and families are usually left with the ultimate decisions. In a centralized system it will often be the state that says when the plug is pulled and when it is not, especially when costs go up.

Care is rationed now... depending on how much money you have, which is the focus of this article. I would rather see a system in place that handles treatment according to how sick you are (heart attacks get seen NOW, sprained knee w/no torn ligaments in a week) rather than how fat your wallet is.

How soon you croak at the end should depend on how far your various diseases have progressed, not how much you can pay for expensive treatments just so you can suck a respirator for another month while someone who can actually be cured does without because they are poor.

This "rationed care" boogeyman is bullshiat... ask the poor folks in the holler where's their "ration" now?

Desterado: First of all Type 2 Diabetes isn't even real diabetes. Oh no, you take some glucophage or some bullshiat. At least you still produce your own insulin.

Type 1 is NOT preventable, causes far more long term problems, and before the advent of insulin was a guaranteed death in a matter of weeks.

Being 23 with type 1 diabetes is fun, I get to look forward to all sorts of complications inevitably no matter what I do.

You do realize of course that type 2 diabetics can also be insulin dependant, do you not? They also face some of the same complications that you do. Both types suck, and not the good way.

bunner:
Put some of this stuff just lying around rusting to use and get people with an interest in DOING something they studied for instead of finding a way to immediately make enough money to distance themselves from those who NEED them to practice what they studied, and do something concrete and useful that doesn't cost a fortune.

As long as the doctors which will be using this equipment get their six figure student loans for college and med school forgiven, then I guess they'll continue to be out to make a little money. Of course we could make going to med school more affordable so that good potential doctors aren't scared off by what it costs, and decide to get their MBAs instead at half the price... but that would make too much sense.

That's six-figure student loans for college and med school... with INTEREST.

cuzsis: //oh, and the original post. Finding a doc to actually take you seriously can be very difficult depending on where you live. I'm lucky to live in an area with some good docs. But I know some people who live in areas where they don't have that. And they can't afford to go traveling long distances/out of state to do so.
///And honestly, having to do that just to find a good doc seems ridiculous when you sit down and think about it. Something wrong here, you think?

Definitely something very wrong, and it's why we need debt forgiveness for medical students, better pay for general practitioners, and a reduction in medical malpractice rates. After eight years of college and medical school (with about $250,000 worth of debt) and three to nine years of residency plus fellowship (during which time your hourly wage is probably on par with someone working at Taco Bell), where would you rather be? Making chicken scratch as a GP in Western Kentucky, or bringing home major bucks as an orthopedic surgeon in Southern California? The way our current system is set up, the answer is obvious, and it's the patients who suffer for it. Things will never be perfect, but with some changes, we can make the choice easier for doctors who do want to return home and serve their local communities.

So what have we learned?

Health care costs are a motherfuc*ing gank.

Coverage might not cover you.

If you live in the boonies and or are poor, get stuffed. You're not profitable.

I'm disappointed in the "headline" and somewhat appalled that Fark would allow these people to be called "morons". To me, reading the article, they seem to not want health care that they can't afford. Essentially, they are saying "I don't want somebody to do a service for me if I can't pay them for that service". Sure, they could have used the system and got their free service (or been billed and never pay like so many), but instead they chose to not indebt themselves or ask for charity (other than an emergency situation that appears to have been life threatening) . Their means didn't give them the opportunity to look out for their own health, but they sure didn't ask for a hand out. I find that commendable. I doubt that the submitter has ever made that sacrifice.

I wish there were more of these morons around.

Desterado: First of all Type 2 Diabetes isn't even real diabetes. Oh no, you take some glucophage or some bullshiat. At least you still produce your own insulin.

Type 1 is NOT preventable, causes far more long term problems, and before the advent of insulin was a guaranteed death in a matter of weeks.

Being 23 with type 1 diabetes is fun, I get to look forward to all sorts of complications inevitably no matter what I do.

Type 2 diabetes (adult onset) is most assuredly real diabetes. If it can't be controlled by diet & oral medication, then the person may have end up having to give themselves insulin injections. This happened to my grandmother (I gave her the injections) and most recently a co-worker of mine.

However, because of rampant obesity, more & more children are being diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes.

keithrogan: If you can afford beer, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford smokes, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford vacations, you can afford health insurance. If you can afford cable for your big screen TV, you can afford health insurance.

It took me all of twenty seconds to Google this up:

...The annual premium for an employer health plan covering a family of four averaged nearly $12,700. The annual premium for single coverage averaged over $4,700.

Do you spend $5000 a year on cable TV? By the fact that you have no idea what things cost in the real world, but are eager to mouth off like Mr. Know-it-all anyway, I'll allow the possibility that you spend $5000 a year marinating your brain in alcohol.

Nabb1: If only there were some mechanism by which a doctor could convey to the employer that the absence was due to a doctor's visit. Perhaps a written communication, on a small, convenient paper form.

If only employers would accept those. Or if only they'd accept that getting injured/sick might keep you away from work for a day or two. They don't.

/just injured my knee with no insurance, not going to a doctor, getting a kick...

didnt read all of the comments but i really dont see the problem of health care in this country. it is really easy to solve we just need to refer to our adam smith books of supply and demand.

healthcare demand is constant > doctors are scarce > medical costs go up.

problem is simple government subsidizes SCHOOLS, UNIVERSITIES to cover 50% or more Medical related degrees for students with 2.5 highschool gpa or above.

wham! flood the market with medical professionals will equal higher choice and and more competiviteness in the medical market.

/of course the only people who would be against this are the people already doctors because their pay will probably drop.

ThomasHayden: /of course the only people who would be against this are the people already doctors because their pay will probably drop.

You know, most markets eventually recognise that - if they are consistently not receiving their demanded fees - that either,

a): what they do isn't worth that much money or
b): their customer base, in this case, all human beings, simply does not have that much money, regardless of the value.

We're not talking about a new Jaguar or a time share in the Hamptons, people. We're talking about hard working motehrf*ckers, their babies and their mamas who are trying to stay alive.

A radical restructuring of medical costs and fees is way overdue.

It's time to start educating healers, as you said with subsidised education in the medical arts and weed out the God complex cases who naturally assume that, after they set up a practice, they can rake in Maybach money and foist the workload off on nurses and interns.

If you are in the healing business to get pigsh*t rich, go be a stockbroker. It's easier to steal form the poor, there and you don't actually have to touch them.

A grassroots reform of all of this that would allow for a more vernacular structure of medical facilities, mobile / storefront / embedded in huge stores... could give up and coming doctors and nurses the opportunity to practice, do some good and bring medicine and the healing arts back to the practitioners and patients and out of the hands of jerkoffs in suits with a shareholder responsibility and little other interest in the operations of their behemoth facility.

The degree to which this model could promote and maintain a useful and affordable level of preventative medicine, alone, could help pay for itself and any subsidies it receives just in defrayed costs down the road for major illnesses that were prevented through such an approach.

The old model is useless, bloated, inefficient and promotes the hundreds of years old guild mentality where the DOCTOR is some sort of holy man and HE OR SHE ALONE are what is important and the patient is a beggar at the door.

F*ck that.

It's time to start subsidising the education and necessary facilities of those who want to heal and shutting the ramparts on the archaic, self-serving robed and crowned anachronisms of the healing arts.

Jesus farking Christ , submitter, your skills with the English language call to mind George Bush Jr. walking into his daughters bedroom one night drunk, fumbling for an apology as he slips it into her. I am almost willing to pay you to never write another sentence for the rest of your life.

Also, free tip for you:

You are a sad, ignorant pseudo-intellectual piece of shiat and if you decide to generalize West Virginians again, perhaps you will be able to articulate your ideas in a manner that doesn't paint you to look like a sister-farking, son-sucking woodhick yourself.

/guess who needs some farking sleep today. Just farking guess.

Bunner, cut the shiat and boil your argument down to "I want free medical care and damn what it costs anyone else."

You don't do your job for free, why would you expect anyone else to do so? Because they love you?

Bunner absolutley right with my model raising the supply of doctors will lead to the ones praticing who care about people and not being in for the money. also what i think people need to remember is this also creates alot of diversity in the medical workforce. it's not like we need a giant surge of nurologists(sp) we just need more people to take gare of generic checkups and routine maintnence. something liek this will also be great for helping bring back a strong middle class that cant be outsourced lol. medial care doesnt need to be free, just reasonable. for everyone.

Fano: Bunner, cut the shiat and boil your argument down to "I want free medical care and damn what it costs anyone else."

You don't do your job for free, why would you expect anyone else to do so? Because they love you?

Gosh, yeah, sure... I should just distill my argument until it's YOUR version of it.

Can you read, motherfu*cker?

Blow the condescending pose out of your ass. Restructuring hardly means "gimmie for free!" If you're gonna suck Ayn Rand's dick, try to not do it on my dime if you can't be bothered with reading comprehension.

bunner: Fano: Bunner, cut the shiat and boil your argument down to "I want free medical care and damn what it costs anyone else."

You don't do your job for free, why would you expect anyone else to do so? Because they love you?

Gosh, yeah, sure... I should just distill my argument until it's YOUR version of it.

Can you read, motherfu*cker?

Blow the condescending pose out of your ass. Restructuring hardly means "gimmie for free!" If you're gonna suck Ayn Rand's dick, try to not do it on my dime if you can't be bothered with reading comprehension.

Haven't been able to afford your haldol lately?

Fano: Haven't been able to afford your haldol lately?

Take a wild guess why I put your slimy, mouthy, ignorant, dick pulling, nothing to say, troll ass on ignore months ago.

Go ahead... guess. : )

Back you go, idiot boy.

bunner: Fano: Haven't been able to afford your haldol lately?

Take a wild guess why I put your slimy, mouthy, ignorant, dick pulling, nothing to say, troll ass on ignore months ago.

Go ahead... guess. : )

Back you go, idiot boy.

Oh noes! Ignored by an obnoxious, foul mouthed bully! And I never knew that I was taken off ignore by your magnanimous nature. I suppose you can continue to dish out foul invectives to everyone else then.

eqtworld: Throughout most of the last 1000 years most great countries have had better healthcare and longer life expectancy than the average US citizen has today

and it was always free

Bullshiat at the very least on the life expectancy and better healthcare parts. Source, please. Otherwise, troll elsewhere.

Scattershot: eqtworld: Throughout most of the last 1000 years most great countries have had better healthcare and longer life expectancy than the average US citizen has today

and it was always free

Bullshiat at the very least on the life expectancy and better healthcare parts. Source, please. Otherwise, troll elsewhere.

And who was providing it for free in the pre-welfare state era? Church run hospitals?

Scattershot: Bullshiat at the very least on the life expectancy and better healthcare parts.

Nay, tis true fore many a daye wouldst find me in the chaire of yon barber, Theodoric of Yorke.

Truely, he hath a waye with the leeyches and the bleedeings that hath convinced me, that under his minystrations, I maye surely live to thirty five!

/facepalm