Lenny_da_Hog: jso2897:
Yeah, I don't get that either. At the point that someone makes it clear that he regards me as an amoral being because I am not a member of his or her particular ideological club, I pretty much draw a line through their name, same as I would if their excuse was my race.

True story:

I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity about 5 years ago. A bunch of my friends thought about it, and I thought it was a good idea and joined them.

I was a little late the first day. Worked all day, went home.

Came back the next morning, everyone there was happy and talking to me in a friendly manner until they got ready to start the work day with a prayer. I stood in the back reverently as they did their thing, then we passed out the tools and started to work.

About 5 minutes later, a big guy walks up to me kind of nervously and say, "I noticed you weren't praying. What are you doing here?"

I told him I was there to help build a house.

He said, "Oh... Okay..." and wandered off.

A few minutes later, the guy, the group leader, and a couple of buddies came back to "save" me. I then explained that I was quite happy the way I was, but it wasn't good enough. They asked me precisely what I believed.

I told them I believed science was the path to knowledge.

"You're an atheist?"

"Yes," I told them.

They started flinging accusations about me being there to steal the tools and supplies, and that people like me weren't welcome there. They took the tools out of my hand and told me to leave.

We'd all gotten along fine the previous day.

/Not a condemnation of Habitat for Humanity, which I fully support. Only of the handful of zealots who were running the project in Anchorage at the time.

Wow!

In 1989, I was a soldier, a newlywed, and a new father. I needed a car real bad, stationed up at Ft. Lewis, WA. The only people that would finance my loan was Alaska Federal Credit Union, only if I was Catholic. I was, and still am atheist, and needed a car. So I, and my wife (she was a protestant) had to feign catholicism to get a car loan.

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

Hail Eris!

Lenny_da_Hog: Humans are social animals. We have empathy wired into our brains at one level or another. We are capable of doing things together.

We understand from experience that life is better, more enjoyable with friends, and that friendship takes trust and treating people right.

You need a religion to tell you this?

My personal pet theory on this is that evolutionarily speaking, we developed to have compassion for our children, because children who had parents which cared about them were more likely to survive. Morality is simply the process of humans recognizing the kernel of their children in all humans and some animals, and we are simply constantly expanding the amount of people we feel compassion for.

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

This is a sincere query and is not intended as sarcasm.

It's simple; morals are an evolved trait. All social animals (humans, wolves, parrots, whatever) have to follow certain rules in order to co-exist. They can be simple rules like "thou shalt not kill and eat females of thine own kind when in heat" to more abstract stuff like "thou shalt not steal." These are hard-wired into our brains. Without these rules, we'd go extinct.

Morals are evolved, just like our opposing thumbs and bulging heads. This is also why the "moral" teachings of various religions are so similar. They come from the same source; our DNA.

jso2897: RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

The point of this billboard is to help atheists find other atheists and socialize, and perhaps have a fun time. They may even organize to repel religious laws and promote the US constitution.

Helios1182: What would happen if for some incredible reason you stopped believing in god? Would you stop loving your wife? What if she stopped believing in god? Would she stop loving you? Would you know longer lover her? What if your kids end up atheist, will they not love you?

Not in direct response to your comment, but the feeling I'm getting from this discussion is that, to some people, God is to love as the "luminous ether" is to light. In other words, light (or love) can't just exist by itself, it has to be part of some medium.

Lenny_da_Hog and JQPublic

Stories like that make me pissed off. Man, I wish people like that would just use their brains for a moment. How would those Christians like it if atheists were the majority, and we told them to go fark themselves?

genner:
Seeking the good of others sometimes feels good. Most atheists have a moral system more or less based on the golden rule but it's dependent on warm fuzzy feelings for motivation.

I admit at this point I think you're essentially just a troll purely based upon your phrasing, but I digress. Warm fuzzy feelings vs God, what's the big difference?

DamnYankees: Anti_illuminati: Yes, I believe they were. But that persecution was not atheistically motivated.

Well, I think you're being disingenuous. There were plenty of people, especially in China, who believed the 'old superstitions' were harmful and needed to be destroyed because atheism was a required step towards a better world. I mean, it just happened. I don't know how to argue it any other way.

It's because you don't know what you're talking about. That's why.

There is no difference in Stalin killing people of religious faith to ascertain complete power. Than it is for a country's successor to assassinate all those in line to ascertain complete power. You use the religion aspect of the story as a convenience to atheist-bashing agenda. Stalin would've killed anyone (get this, it's very important - ANYONE) to hold complete power. Religion was not his main motive.

amanogowa: jso2897: RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

The point of this billboard is to help atheists find other atheists and socialize, and perhaps have a fun time. They may even organize to repel religious laws and promote the US constitution.

I'm starting to think a better billboard would have just said, "Are you an atheist? Then get the hell out of Florida and meet us up north, genius. These fat lards will crucify you if they find out."

If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Much better. You had me worried about the creativity meter for awhile!

/figured you were prob'ly hung over from partying on the 4th....

MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

vertiaset: Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Genetic components, how I was raised, and certain motivations and considerations often stated simply as the Golden Rule.

Good and Evil are terms, and not absolutes. Actions which I am aversive towards I would often describe as evil, and those are actions which deliberately harm others. Others which deliberately help others are good and fill me with a warm, fuzzy feeling. I previously explained even with a deity concepts such as Good and Evil are not absolutes either.

Vary from person to person. We have genetic components to this, which can alter, and I disbelieve societies can exist without reinforcing ideals of good and evil; this includes enforcing laws and raising children certain ways.

To restate, a deity cannot make Good and Evil absolutes, merely removed from our personal subjectivity. A deity who determines good and evil is capable of changing those supposed absolutes. If a deity is incapable of changing those, we should revere instead whatever defines them.

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

I knew there was a reason Christians never killed people!

.5/10

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

How does it feel to be so incredibly wrong?

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

(snicker)

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

You surname is Le Trôle.

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

I don't know. I'd feel much more comfortable if I knew they were going to go to an afterlife.

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Indeed, because I believe morality is a purely human defined construction, and not some great pre-defined latticework upon the universe.

Thus it actually provides evidence that an atheist can be good by their own strength of character, since they don't run around killing people willy-nilly.

And yes, yes, I realize you're letrole and that as a troll your posts probably have nothing to do with your actual beliefs, I just felt like responding to that one because it seemed to serve my purpose.

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

And yet atheists are underepresented in our prisons, which are overwhelminly Christian.

/plank...eye...splinter...

Excen: MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

Yeah, I'm not going to read all that right now. Are you sure you understand what I was referring to when I said that?

Drew must be hurting for pageviews today. Makes sense: Everyone else is out there living their lives.

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Le Feesheeng eez good, no?

/Trollin' trollin' trollin' keep them eyes a rollin'
//Trollin' Trollin' trollin' /b/side!

vertiaset: James F. Campbell

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Humanism is one source.

Yes, and a fine one at that. I wonder though, how many of the fuzzy headed "sky wizard" atheists on Fark have ever even heard of "Humanism". Thanks for providing the link. You may have actually set some otherwise amoral non believers on a more ethical arc.



My favorite atheist. A man who was not an ideologue. Not a hater. A man who knew both religion and science. A man who realized one could be a skeptic and a believer. A true seeker after the "Truth" ... yes with a capital "T".

I've kept quiet about it this thread because in the last several religion threads I've been pretty vocal about Humanism in my own life and I don't want to become an evangelist.

What a Beautiful sign.

If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

MorganFreeman: Excen: MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

Yeah, I'm not going to read all that right now. Are you sure you understand what I was referring to when I said that?

I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

reklamfox: If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

G2V: And yes, yes, I realize you're letrole and that as a troll your posts probably have nothing to do with your actual beliefs, I just felt like responding to that one because it seemed to serve my purpose.

His surname is Le Trôle.

reklamfox: If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

Theists can telepathically apologize for anything they do. Atheists recognize the permanence and fragility inherent to continued and continuing existence. If anything, atheists would be better at leading nations with nuclear weapons, any nations with armies really, than theists.

"How would you feel if you had brought some children into the world knowing that they were going to be tormented eternally in a place you built for them? Could you live with yourself? Wouldn't it have been better not to have brought them into the world in the first place?" - Dan Barker, godless

As an Orthodox Athiest Protestant, I am getting a kick out of these replies...

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

One such case would be "all too often", but zero would be acceptable. Care to provide the trivial proof of existence?

vertiaset: After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

Nah, good and evil crop up anyway, because measure only decides what we think the laws of physics are. The universe's opinion of what they are is rather more important, and any difference between measure and measured is Our Problem.

Khanmots: And yes, I believe that it requires faith to believe in the existance of God... or to actively deny the existence of God.

The latter, however, does not require any more faith than denying that there is a cauliflower occupying your cranial cavity in place of a brain.

genner: Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

Because I am not foolhardy enough to keep my entire identity in one fleshbag; while I'll be somewhat dead, I may not even be mostly dead.

genner: Does your whole system of empathy revolve around your ability to reproduce? What happens to people who don't have kids?

Having kids is one way to help make sure your identity is not all locked up in one fleshbag, but there are other alternatives.

Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

Look up Aristaeus, honey. =)

vertiaset, what personality type are you? (see above chart) does it match your chosen religion/spiritual path?

Just curious. This is an honest and sincere question.

reklamfox: If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

It really doesn't.

They just have the convenience of placing blame on God, Satan, or non-believers.

Remember, they are champion finger pointers.

Excen: MorganFreeman: Excen: MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

Yeah, I'm not going to read all that right now. Are you sure you understand what I was referring to when I said that?

I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

Stay Cool Babylon: It's easier to remember the ones who pissed us off.

That's called confirmation bias.

And I think it would be a lot less if those sensible Christians shouted down their asshat coreligionists more often.

Apparently "love your neighbor" means "love your neighbor even if he's a dick and is bothering other people, and if those other people have a problem with him then they're just angry and should be dismissed."

My local Baptist congregation is having a sermon on my street right now and my lights are off and door is locked so I am getting a kick out of these replies.

/now they are singing a hymn. Certainly more vigorous than the Papists or the Anglicans.
//Now they are proclaiming the good news again.

vertiaset:
What are these "genetic components". Can you find them on a map of the genome?

You can see their results in the human brain, with PET scans.

Why are dogs friendly? Why do they have emotions? How is they can learn how not to steal food? How do they know to attack enemies to protect friends?

Is there a DogGod instilling them with morality through Dogma?

MorganFreeman:
I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

Your dog isn't talking to you, is it?

/Yes, I'm well aware that Gacy made up the talking-dog stuff. . .

JQPublic: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

And yet atheists are underepresented in our prisons, which are overwhelminly Christian.

/plank...eye...splinter...

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

You don't know many atheists. In my mind they're very moral people. Their morality just disagrees with yours.

Seth'n'Spectrum: /more or less mandatory

couldn't of said it better. ALL organized religions are a crock and a scam.
That said, i don't mind advertising from either side. Whofakincares? what they put on them? The only billboards I look at have hot babes in bikinis!

vertiaset: So you are a moral relativist. So, if you were ... say ... an Aztec and you believed, truly believed, that if you did not rip the living heart out of men and women on a daily basis that the sun would not rise tomorrow, are your actions in doing so "good"?

Well, if I were an Aztec, I guess I would fervently believe it was good, but the funny thing is, I'm not an Aztec, and I firmly believe that such an action would be detrimental to the person receiving this "sacriment", and therefore, immoral.

Seriously, asking this question is like saying, "If Jesus had never been born, would you still be Christian?"

Lenny_da_Hog: vertiaset:
What are these "genetic components". Can you find them on a map of the genome?

You can see their results in the human brain, with PET scans.

Why are dogs friendly? Why do they have emotions? How is they can learn how not to steal food? How do they know to attack enemies to protect friends?

Is there a DogGod instilling them with morality through Dogma?

DOG-MA! +1

JasonOfOrillia: Now they are proclaiming the good news again.

Sarah Palin has quit politics and will live under a rock for the rest of her life?!?

That is good news!