DeaH: Do you you believe that for those who do not believe in God, good = what feels good?

I actually believe this about everyone - religion or not. It's basic Hume-ian philosophy.

DamnYankees: I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

Wow. You truly are an idiot, aren't you? Well, at least when it comes to theology.

Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

vertiaset: Churches as competing form of government. Absurd. More than absurd, a damn self serving lie.

Churches tell you what to do.

They tell you what not to do.

They tax, they spend. When another form of government isn't present (and sometimes even when it is), they have laws for which they will punish non-compliance.

They tell people when to fight. Churches have had wars throughout history.

If a dictator cannot control the church or have the church work in collusion (remember, the Pope turned a blind eye to Hitler?), the dictator will destroy the church for these reasons only.

...the same reasons they go after any sort of group that poses a threat to their power.

eqtworld:
bushbot111: eqtworld

Where is thst?

GISville



The really weird thing about that is Darwin was a Anglican Minister for his whole adult life. Some people really need a good smack.

bushbot111: Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what.

What Fark are you reading?

Anti_illuminati: Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

Do you not think that someone, somewhere in Russia was killed because they were religious?

genner
Morality is a concept that can exist without
religion....

genner: To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

I have shiat to do, so I can't be bothered to waste time on you. I will say, however, to others that genner is purposely trying to waste your time by getting you to "explain" something that he cannot or will not understand.

Vangor: genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

You are narrowly interpreting 'when it feels good' to mean a constant state of elation. Is everything about a vacation the most terrific experience in the world? No, the cost is prohibitive, you're in an unfamiliar place, weather may conflict, travel is nightmarish, and more. Does not mean you don't overall enjoy vacationing tremendously.

In the experience of having a wife and children, if it stops feeling good we're not speaking of having a small fight or similar, but a persistent state where divorce is the most reasonable option for both of you who are devoid of love for one another.

The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

genner: theorellior: genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Why is "love" predicated on God? Why do I have to explain why I love my wife and children and think that it's bad to slap them around when I'm feeling like an asshole?


To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

Yeah, I don't get that either. At the point that someone makes it clear that he regards me as an amoral being because I am not a member of his or her particular ideological club, I pretty much draw a line through their name, same as I would if their excuse was my race.
I would never dignify such and assertion by bothering to argue it, since anyone who would utter such an assertion immediately adds himself to the list of "people whose opinions I wouldn't wipe my ass with."

Thank you, Mr. Mencken (new window)

JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

I don't particularly agree nor disagree. Stalin and Mao were not motivated by atheism, certainly as this is impossible, but were motivated by a hatred of belief as this stole from the worship of the state. We can bicker about state replacing a deity, but I find that a rather weak argument.

My response is usually that being an atheist does not preclude one from being anything else except a theist. Theism is often merely a cover and empowering tool for the madmen of the world which can directly motivate atrocity, but atheism is not any counter, merely a removal of.

DamnYankees: Anti_illuminati: Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

Do you not think that someone, somewhere in Russia was killed because they were religious?

That's a moot point. Just because someone was killed for being religious does not make their killer religiously (or atheistically) motivated.

The Russian Orthodox Church could have opposed Stalin, and Stalin killed its members not because of their religion, but because they resisted his control.

genner: To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

Well, that's good for society, I suppose.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

"Prove" morality? How does one go about doing that? I haven't raped, murdered or stolen anything in a while. I refrained from those things because I feel that they're wrong. Why? Well, the true reason is that I feel this way, always have, and God was never on my shoulder telling me this. But if I have to "prove" something, I'll break it down:

Rape = force and pain inflicted for power and sexual gratification. I have to explain why this is bad?

Murder = taking of a life, which may or may not end it entirely. I have no hard and fast rules on an afterlife. It could be the standing wave in my brain can propagate itself after my body fails. Or maybe not. If not, then we've got one life to live, and taking another's life is a terribly cruel thing to do.

Stealing = the Golden Rule, pure and simple. I don't want people stealing my stuff, so I don't go around stealing theirs. Simple social reciprocity.

vertiaset: jso2897

You sound angry. Which I find kind of funny given your denial that you are.


Wait. You can actually HEAR him? Over the internet?


When you wrote that did it sound all "edgy" and "witty" in your mind?

Maybe. Maybe not. What do you want to know for?

vertiaset: Lenny_da_Hog

vertiaset:
Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.


Uh. No. They did not do this in the "name of atheism."

Churches are a competing form of government. When a dictator wants total control, he cannot allow any sort of competition. THIS is why they attacked religion.


Wow. You atheists will undergo the greatest contortions to lie about the murder of the faithful by atheist regimes. Churches as competing form of government. Absurd. More than absurd, a damn self serving lie.

There's a difference between atheism and anti-theism. If you really want to get technical, Stalin's actions and philosophies were blessed by 2 different Russian Orthodox Priests. It's like calling all Muslims suicide-bombing wifebeaters or all Christians abortion-doctor-murdering cousin-farkers.

I doubt any atheist saner than Pat Robertson would try to defend the Pogroms or the massacres of Mao Zedong. That's the problem with militant Christians: they are so quick to stereotype.

/Atheism is no more a self-serving lie than the Invisible Sky Wizard Pyramid scheme

Everyone is missing the point. The fact is that God created this great country and it's through Him that all things are possible. We owe it to our Lord and Savior to worship Him and Praise Him every day less we suffer the wrath of his Damnation. He has already shown his displeasure with us: A tanked economy a muslim president, a great governer who is not leading her state any more. I pray for all your souls and Hope (not that fake democrat hope) that you will see the light and except Jesus Christ as your Lord.

Ahh this big momma woman and her community are only complaining because they are too ashamed to actually admit they have no idea how to take responsibility for themselves. It's so convenient to bury your head in the sand and proclaim 'God will watch over me'. When God keeps you in the same crappy neighborhood with the drugs and slums it's just 'God's way of testing you'. If God grants you the good fortune of being able to escape from poverty 'God is taking care of his believers'. There is no winning with people like this. They won't be happy until everyone else either converts to their religion or is beaten into submission.
While the atheist says: don't like the community you live in? Get an education, a good job and get the fark out of there. It's easier said then done, but if you take responsibility for yourself you can do whatever you want.

Sergeant Grumbles: That's a moot point. Just because someone was killed for being religious does not make their killer religiously (or atheistically) motivated.

The Russian Orthodox Church could have opposed Stalin, and Stalin killed its members not because of their religion, but because they resisted his control.

This is not relevant. Let me give you a little scenario, and you can tell me if you think this is insane:

Some Russian official buys wholly into Marxism. He is an atheist and believes religious people are superstitution and will cause great evil in the world. He runs across a priest in the street and decides to make a showing to the shtetl (small town) by giving him a mock trial and executing the man. His motivation for doing so is his believe that atheism is required for all rational thinking, and he is doing good by ridding the world of priests and discouraging religion.

You don't think this happened? You don't think this happened to Monks in China? Come on, now.

DamnYankees: genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

What 'reward'?

A look from your wife. A smile from your child. All those things that Dads get warm fuzzys over. The whole idea that doing good sometimes feels good. That reward.

DamnYankees: JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

No I'm not. People were killed in Russia because they were religious, and they were killed because the state believed religion was evil and harmful and should be wiped out. It wasn't incredibly widespread, but it happened.

There's nothing stopping a atheist Christian from hating religious anything so much he kills people out of his hatred.

Unless God has a new policy of coming down and physically stopping you?

Really, really poor argument.

DamnYankees: Anti_illuminati: Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

Do you not think that someone, somewhere in Russia was killed because they were religious?

Yes, I believe they were. But that persecution was not atheistically motivated. Religion, all religion, was seen as an obstruction to the Communist regime. It had nothing to do with the supernatural albeit spiritual realm many individuals believed in. It was eradication of an opposing force, not of an individuals ideology.

See the mass genocide of Christians from Japan. They were not killed because of conflicting ideological reasons, but because they posed a threat to the power of the current establishment.

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

This is a sincere query and is not intended as sarcasm.

Humanism is one source.

eqtworld: bushbot111: eqtworld

Where is thst?

GISville



Here are the people responsible for it. Ray Comfort of the "Banana proof of God" fame w/Kirk Cameron.

The sign is located in Los Angeles on the 105 Freeway.

Link (new window)

I think most would agree that the majority of non-theists really don't have any problems with the any of the 10 commandments that don't have "God" in them..
don't kill
don't bang your neighbor's wife even (if she is hot)
dont steal
and like and such....

you know, we're not our here farking goats and sacrificing virgins ( or is it the other way around?)...we pay taxes blah blah blah

I'm so glad I live in Alaska, where we don't allow billboards.

They're so ugly, no matter what they say.

/atheist

genner: Vangor: genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

You are narrowly interpreting 'when it feels good' to mean a constant state of elation. Is everything about a vacation the most terrific experience in the world? No, the cost is prohibitive, you're in an unfamiliar place, weather may conflict, travel is nightmarish, and more. Does not mean you don't overall enjoy vacationing tremendously.

In the experience of having a wife and children, if it stops feeling good we're not speaking of having a small fight or similar, but a persistent state where divorce is the most reasonable option for both of you who are devoid of love for one another.

The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

So are you, just with the added benefit of being able to do it from your Christian pedestal. It's the illusion of superiority, not the real thing, dude.

genner: A look from your wife. A smile from your child. All those things that Dads get warm fuzzys over. The whole idea that doing good sometimes feels good. That reward.

You are mistaking "reward" for "motivation". They are not the same thing.

First of all, you are discarding the idea of self-sacrifice. Actions such as dying for someone else or leaving your family behind and never seeing them again because they would be in danger if you stayed. Such actions would preclude you from every seeing your family, so those "looks" and "smiles" wouldn't exist. Yet we still do them out of love.

Secondly, your error in confusing "reward" and "motivation". A reward is something you will get in exchange for doing something good, above and beyond what is expected, which would be called compensation. A motivation is simply that which drives us to do something. It can be reward, but not always. For example, why do we eat food? Well, because we experience hunger. Hunger motivates us to eat. But is there any 'reward' for eating? Not in any normal sense of that word. Merely, we have an inner compulsion to do something and we do it. It's part of being human. When we thirst, we drink. When we hunger, we eat. When we tire, we sleep. None of this involves "rewards" of any kind. It is merely the natural way human beings work.

It's the same thing with "morality" or "love". We have a natural compulsion to help people. So when a an atheist abolitionist saw a slave being beaten in the field, they didn't try to free the slaves because they got a "reward" for doing so. They did so because they had an internal motivation which required them to act in a certain way - that's a feeling we call "compassion". Compassion is the fundamental building block of all morality. And its not a reward - its merely an internal evolutionary drive.

genner: The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

As opposed to you doing it for... what, exactly?

jso2897:
Yeah, I don't get that either. At the point that someone makes it clear that he regards me as an amoral being because I am not a member of his or her particular ideological club, I pretty much draw a line through their name, same as I would if their excuse was my race.

True story:

I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity about 5 years ago. A bunch of my friends thought about it, and I thought it was a good idea and joined them.

I was a little late the first day. Worked all day, went home.

Came back the next morning, everyone there was happy and talking to me in a friendly manner until they got ready to start the work day with a prayer. I stood in the back reverently as they did their thing, then we passed out the tools and started to work.

About 5 minutes later, a big guy walks up to me kind of nervously and say, "I noticed you weren't praying. What are you doing here?"

I told him I was there to help build a house.

He said, "Oh... Okay..." and wandered off.

A few minutes later, the guy, the group leader, and a couple of buddies came back to "save" me. I then explained that I was quite happy the way I was, but it wasn't good enough. They asked me precisely what I believed.

I told them I believed science was the path to knowledge.

"You're an atheist?"

"Yes," I told them.

They started flinging accusations about me being there to steal the tools and supplies, and that people like me weren't welcome there. They took the tools out of my hand and told me to leave.

We'd all gotten along fine the previous day.

/Not a condemnation of Habitat for Humanity, which I fully support. Only of the handful of zealots who were running the project in Anchorage at the time.

So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

There is no variation, it's just the Golden Rule. You treat others kindly and they will return the favor. This is something kids in preschool learn through sharing.. no God is needed to teach people to treat others how they would want to be treated. Most atheists are good people because they feel the same urgency that theists do to act responsibly and help their fellow man.

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

I don't recall the last time the tooth-fairy crowd tried to claim this country was founded based on the tooth fairy, or to pass laws violating my rights in the name of what the tooth fairy wanted.

So, in other words, how does this even compare?

Anti_illuminati: Yes, I believe they were. But that persecution was not atheistically motivated.

Well, I think you're being disingenuous. There were plenty of people, especially in China, who believed the 'old superstitions' were harmful and needed to be destroyed because atheism was a required step towards a better world. I mean, it just happened. I don't know how to argue it any other way.

There is no intolerance like black intolerance.


/unbelievable.
//not really.

genner


The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

I don't believe genuine 100% altruism exists. Does that help? Now, whether the 'do-er' percieves their desire for a reward, or is ignorant of it (doing something nice because evolutionarily, doing nice things is practical from a survival standpoint in a group organism), there's ultimately some personal benefit generally the architect of any deed.

That being said, I don't see any reason for that to negate goodness. You're nice because you love God? Great! I'm nice because I love my girlfriend (not that I'm saying you don't, mind you). Can she be a handful? You bet. Can I be made to feel awful? Darn tootin. Do I feel like it is worth the effort to be good even when things are bad, because I'll be rewarded with something worthwhile overall? Yes. Does this mean I'm in it for the rewards? Sure! So?

I'm eventually going to die, and by my own theorizing, cease to have any existence whatsoever, which will make everything I've done meaningless to me. But in a way I feel that just makes it that much more precious to me, because its value is mine only, not something given to me by another.

James F. Campbell:
I will say, however, to others that genner is purposely trying to waste your time by getting you to "explain" something that he cannot or will not understand.

Well, I've got time to waste! :)

genner: The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

Once more, the conversation is not about reward. You asked why anyone would care about the future without an immortal soul and were rebuked. Whomever proposed not needing a reward is uninvolved in this conversation, which is an important detail because "reward" is not a trump card.

I fail to see how you can say, "I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards," as though implying you don't do this for a reward? You do this for affections, bliss, sense of right, etc., just as the rest of us. And this is the entire point, we're not terribly different, one of us simply doesn't need to fabricate additional rewards.

genner: DamnYankees: genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

What would happen if for some incredible reason you stopped believing in god? Would you stop loving your wife? What if she stopped believing in god? Would she stop loving you? Would you know longer lover her? What if your kids end up atheist, will they not love you?

genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

So you really picture yourself with big white angel wings flying above your town judging everyone for the rest of eternity? I am not egotistical enough to think the world needs me (or anyone) that badly, but as a mother I do what I can to not fark up this planet. Not because my soul will be floating around in the smog, but because I enjoy many parts of my life and where I live and I want my great grandchildren to have the same opportunity. I know jeebus' diary told you he's coming back to burn us all in his loving compassion soon, so you aren't overly concerned with the state of the planet, but on the teensy chance that horses don't fly down blowing trumpets next year to kill us all with love, I'm putting my energy into keeping this place habitable for as long as possible.

limeyfellow: The really weird thing about that is Darwin was a Anglican Minister for his whole adult life. Some people really need a good smack.

Darwin's family tradition was nonconformist Unitarianism, while his father and grandfather were freethinkers, and his baptism and boarding school were Church of England.[12] When going to Cambridge to become an Anglican clergyman, he did not doubt the literal truth of the Bible.[17] He learnt John Herschel's science which, like William Paley's natural theology, sought explanations in laws of nature rather than miracles and saw adaptation of species as evidence of design.[19][20] On board the Beagle, Darwin was quite orthodox and would quote the Bible as an authority on morality.[137] He looked for "centres of creation" to explain distribution,[40] and related the antlion found near kangaroos to distinct "periods of Creation". (new window)

letrole My surname is Le Trôle.
brukmann Your name is no excuse for being a dick.

I'm not being a dick. I'm really not saying much at all.

Atheism is a Religion. So what?

Go ahead sir, and continue to prove my point for me.

Bush ate my bush: Everyone is missing the point. The fact is that God created this great country and it's through Him that all things are possible. We owe it to our Lord and Savior to worship Him and Praise Him every day less we suffer the wrath of his Damnation. He has already shown his displeasure with us: A tanked economy a muslim president, a great governer who is not leading her state any more. I pray for all your souls and Hope (not that fake democrat hope) that you will see the light and except Jesus Christ as your Lord.

Uh, you can thank that marriage-wrecking Slick Willie Clinton for the tanked economy. If you really want to get technical, you can thank the 93rd Good-Christian-Republican Congress and their veto-overriding majority for the tanked economy, courtesy of the deregulation of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1993 leading to the Mortgage-Backed Securities bubble and subsequent economic collapse.

I find it rather funny that you blame Atheists and Muslims for the problems a Catholic, an Episcopalian, a Texas Politician invented and a Baptist signed into law.

/I inform when trolling, you wiccan-burning baby-towelhead-killer!

vertiaset: Where does your sense of morality come from anyway?

From me.

Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

You tell me.

The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

letrole: letrole My surname is Le Trôle.
brukmann Your name is no excuse for being a dick.

I'm not being a dick. I'm really not saying much at all.

Atheism is a Religion. So what?

Go ahead sir, and continue to prove my point for me.

Forgot to quote the first time, but... you're still wrong.

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

This is a sincere query and is not intended as sarcasm.

Humans are social animals. We have empathy wired into our brains at one level or another. We are capable of doing things together.

We understand from experience that life is better, more enjoyable with friends, and that friendship takes trust and treating people right.

You need a religion to tell you this?

MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

Darn.

We owe it to our Lord and Savior to worship Him and Praise Him every day less we suffer the wrath of his Damnation. He has already shown his displeasure with us: A tanked economy a muslim president, a great governer who is not leading her state any more.


Ugh.. I think I'll pass showing favor to someone just because I'm afraid they will punch me in the face if i don't. Fear is not believing, it is being afraid of the punishment. Your Jesus is no more then a school yard bully pushing kids over for making fun of him.

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

This is a sincere query and is not intended as sarcasm.

This covers a broader scope than my original question but it still relates.

To sum up what I found out.....Seeking the good of others sometimes feels good. Most atheists have a moral system more or less based on the golden rule but it's dependent on warm fuzzy feelings for motivation. The only other argument I've seen to live morally is that it's a evolutionary instinct to help the hurd. This is tough to dissect since instinct doesn't have to be rational.