I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

Tooth Fairy doesn't have a big organization that believes in her to the point of oppressing and slandering others throughout human history.

vertiaset: Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Since Mao is dead, I don't think he is killing any Tibetans. Did Stalin kill in the name of atheism or because organized religion threatened his political power?

blessed are the cheesmakers
hot like melted jarlsberg

Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

Why are you blessing Wisconsinites again?

jso2897: RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN???

I kid. You're totally right.

Mongo cut wood: Where do you people get your misinformation\propoganda? You Fail horribly. Fear is not the motivation. The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

I think the argument is directly posed against the argument I am often given of, "How can you be good without a belief in God?" If such a belief is all which is keeping you from raping, murdering, stealing, and raping, well the motivation to be good seems either a want of eternal bliss or a fear of eternal punishment. I sincerely doubt anyone but such an irrelevant amount of people believe this way, and none of them are probably the ones asking.

DamnYankees: genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

G2V:

Now admittedly, phrased that way you could say if i believe I'm nice because I evolved to want to be that way for advantage, it's no more 'genuine' an emotion than people being nice because they don't want God to kick their asses.


Perhaps. Some will claim it's a societal thing. I do a lot of "nice" things that will never have any "benefit" for me as I go out of my way to make sure they can never be traced back to me by anyone. I wouldn't even call that a moral or ethical stand on my part -- it's just something my grandfather impressed on me when I was young, and it always made sense to me. I don't want my own "reward" for having done good to be the reason I do it.

I'm not sure how I could ever claim I benefit from it, other than perhaps from my own "altruisic feeling" that so many bandy about.

To be honest, I don't think that deeply about it. I decide some people or groups deserve or need money or items more than I do, and where I can do so, I give it to them, anonymously. There's no matrix I go through in my head to determine whether it's right for me to do so, I just enjoy helping people out who need it, especially when it's likely I'll just spend it on a television or wine. The only time I think too deeply about it is when I'm dealing with a person or group who I consider to possibly be trying to take advantage of donations for their own financial gain and not for their stated purpose.

Mongo cut wood: The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

Jesus was into pedophilia, adultery, and overseas invasions? Sounds like I missed the best part of the bible.

RosettaStone: vertiaset: Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Since Mao is dead, I don't think he is killing any Tibetans. Did Stalin kill in the name of atheism or because organized religion threatened his political power?

Stop it! You're logic reasoning is disadvantageous to organized religious teachings!

W. T. Fark: One of my professors was actually like this. Shortly after 9/11, when everyone was kind of in a weird mental state anyway, he privately confided in me that if God did not exist, he wouldn't give a damn and would go around hurting people. I kid you not.

There's a theory that religion and religious feeling developed in the human species for exactly this reason: to curb the sociopaths who would otherwise fark up the system and make them productive members of society.

genner: Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.

You think you needed to 'learn' love from god? I don't understand what that means. How can you 'learn' to have an emotion?

genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

When the pain outweight the love and you don't see any way or that to change, yes. That's called divorce. Or in the case of kids, 'cutting off'. It's not a very good thing, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes its best for all parties involved.

Wenchmaster: FitzShivering: Depends how many pets you have. I'm pretty sure one of our cats has officially cost more than a child this year. :)

Same here. I spent several thousand dollars last month in a losing battle to save one of my furchildren. Have another cat who is diabetic. Special food, insulin, vet visits- all fairly expensive.

/Childless by choice
//Curmudgeon by temperment

You raise an interesting point. If God really does exist, why would he allow atheism to spread the way it's doing today? Maybe he's getting tired of the religious folk bothering him all the time. I mean, after all these years, it must be getting pretty f..king old. "Save my sick child!". "Bring prosperity to my business!". "Grant us world peace, and spiritual serenity, oh Lord!".

STFU!!!! Do it yourselves, you lazy clods!!

jso2897: RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

It's not about changing minds. It's about letting people know they can come out of the closet; that just because the majority of the planet are the equivalent of flat-earthers, you're not alone in noticing the world is spherical.

You really don't know the kind of oppression that goes on, do you? I've been threatened with violence a number of times by Christians over the years, and there is no lack of zealots to run around your town or job to tell very other "believer" what a horrible, horrible, untrustworthy person you are.

/The internet is helping more than anything else....

genner: Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

No. I slap them and put them in their place. Which is something I learned from God.

Vangor: I think the argument is directly posed against the argument I am often given of, "How can you be good without a belief in God?" If such a belief is all which is keeping you from raping, murdering, stealing, and raping, well the motivation to be good seems either a want of eternal bliss or a fear of eternal punishment. I sincerely doubt anyone but such an irrelevant amount of people believe this way, and none of them are probably the ones asking.


You said "rape" twice.

genner:

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Are you being serious when you ask that, Genner? I have a hard time believing you aren't trolling, because it's just such a different worldview, but I'll take the time to respond if you are actually being honest in your questions and not just trying to upset people.

And just what, has Big Mama's god done for the kids that are killing themselves now? They allegedly have her god to believe in, yet still kill.

FAILURE OF YOUR GOD, Big Mama.

It's time to break the facade that is religion and get down to the business of being HUMANS.

And I love the lie that they are losing business. I'd like the see that proof, just as I would like to see the proof of their god. But, as we know, christians think repeating something over and over makes it true. God, indeed!

Trapper439: ///Would have at least a small modicum of respect for religious farkers if they did me the same farking courtesy

Many do. As Christians are apt to judge hysterical atheists based upon the extremely vocal actions of the few (this billboard is not one of those examples), we non-believers sometimes forget that there are kind, tolerant, or otherwise non-douche Christians in this world. It's easier to remember the ones who pissed us off.

Douchebag Christian: Pat Robertson, et al
Douchebag atheist: That clove-smoking asshole in the coffee shop who just. won't. let it go. Bonus dick-ness for a dog-eared copy of No Exit.

Like the London subway, but more yokel.

DamnYankees: When the pain outweight the love and you don't see any way or that to change, yes. That's called divorce. Or in the case of kids, 'cutting off'. It's not a very good thing, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes its best for all parties involved.

Christians only understand this if their child chose to be gay, or decided get an abortion.

FTFA: "...we all believe in a spiritual higher being"

Actually, no. No we ALL don't.

Nemo's Brother: Those intolerant black business owners are at it again.

How DARE they! It's an OUTRAGE!

vertiaset:
Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Critical thinking, facts and historical perspective ... learn it.

Uh. No. They did not do this in the "name of atheism."

Churches are a competing form of government. When a dictator wants total control, he cannot allow any sort of competition. THIS is why they attacked religion.

Critical thinking, facts, and historical perspective ... learn it.

safety-math: An atheism one, maybe even more so, because some god-fearing motorist isn't going to see it and suddenly have a revelation...

The billboard isn't aimed at "god-fearing motorists". The key phrase is "You're not alone."

/ On atheist boards, it's pretty common to see the words "I thought I was alone".
// Most atheists are pretty closeted. They shouldn't have to be.

Stay Cool Babylon: Trapper439: ///Would have at least a small modicum of respect for religious farkers if they did me the same farking courtesy

Many do. As Christians are apt to judge hysterical atheists based upon the extremely vocal actions of the few (this billboard is not one of those examples), we non-believers sometimes forget that there are kind, tolerant, or otherwise non-douche Christians in this world. It's easier to remember the ones who pissed us off.

Douchebag Christian: Pat Robertson, et al
Douchebag atheist: That clove-smoking asshole in the coffee shop who just. won't. let it go. Bonus dick-ness for a dog-eared copy of No Exit.

Pat Robertson isn't actually a horrible guy. He's off-base and often kinda crazy, but he does a lot of good in the world.

Robert Tilton would be a much better example.

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

oh, you're back. how, uh, nice.

vertiaset: Way to go Captain Godwin.

You're welcome.

Atheist Rationalization #122: Hitler was Christian.

Hitler was no Christian, he personally was an atheist, but utilized religion, both Christianity and Paganism, for his political ends. He was a politician leading a nominally Christian nation so he used it for his own ends. The proof? Easy, just use your critical thinking and the historical sources. Look at his PUBLIC PRONOUNCEMENTS and contrast them with his PRIVATE STATEMENTS.

You mean private statements like this one?

"At one point he described his religious status: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

In public, political speeches made while he was still vying for power, he said things like:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

In private and especially after he consolidated his power he said (and wrote):

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....

(snip)

"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

Hitler was a great admirer of Martin Luther. Like Martin Luther, Hitler was critical of his own religion. Like Matin Luther, Hitler was outright hostile towards the churches. Like martin Luther, Hitler wanted to found a new religion, one more suitable for the Third Reich. Something like this:



And like Martin Luther, Hitler hated the Jews. If Hitler hadn't been christian, he would probably not have hated the Jews. The Holocaust? Martin Luther wrote the manual (except for the gas chamber bit).

Even more telling than his words were his actions. In addition to Jews, Hitler also sent to the camps many thousands of Catholic clergy.

Hitler sent people who disobeyed him to the camps. He didn't send catholics there because they were catholics, but because they got in the way. (I notice you didn't say anything about him sending protestant clergy to the camps - why not?)

But for the sake of argument; if Hitler was not XPNs, as you claim, why were the German XPNs so easily duped?

Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

No, not in the name of atheism:



Saying that Stalin killed large numbers of people because he didn't believe in gods is just stupid.

Critical thinking, facts and historical perspective ... learn it.

You should follow your own advice.

FitzShivering: Robert Tilton would be a much better example.

While I don't agree with your assessment of Robertson, I whole-heartedly endorse your alternate pick.

DamnYankees: genner: Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.

You think you needed to 'learn' love from god? I don't understand what that means. How can you 'learn' to have an emotion?

genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

When the pain outweight the love and you don't see any way or that to change, yes.


I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

Mongo cut wood: The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

My motivation is to be able to fly and lift freight trains over my head.

Sometimes it's hard to have your goals set too high.

As someone who has to share his parents' basement with three preachers for the next week, I'm not getting a kick out of these replies.

/Goddamned baby-boomers and their inability to maintain an economy. . .

vertiaset: Stay Cool Babylon

vertiaset:
Atheist rationalization #212: The community of the faithful contains sinners, hypocrites and others who are less than perfect. Therefore, God does not exist.

Oh my...is this what you actually believe? That non-believers would even consider that a causal relationsuhip, let alone an argument against God? Do straigh-faced remarks like this actually sputter and backfire inside that skull of yours on a regular basis?

You don't anger me; I pity you. You're not even grasping the fundamental laws of basic reasoning before tryng to use it against those who feel differently from you.

Frankly, it's kinda sad, bro.

You sound angry. Which I find kind of funny given your denial that you are.

Yes, I do see that rationalization trotted out in every thread on atheism here on Fark. I framed it in terms which, as you noted, showed it for the silliness that it is. They are usually anecdotes of the "I knew this guy in college who claimed to be a Christian and he stole my bike" variety.

Wait. You can actually HEAR him? Over the internet?
Dude - I told you NOT to take the brown acid.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the "angry atheists" - they just piss and moan, as opposed to expressing their displeasure by blowing up day care centers, shooting doctors, flying planes into buildings - that sort of thing.
Pussies.

CruiserTwelve: "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

Yeah, that God thing is working out really well for you, huh?

That was sort of my thought. That, and, "Maybe they should learn to believe in themselves and in the power to change things here on earth."

/not an atheist, but her reaction floors me

genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Why is "love" predicated on God? Why do I have to explain why I love my wife and children and think that it's bad to slap them around when I'm feeling like an asshole?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you're saying kinda assumes that without God we're supposed to be slaves to immediate stimuli and act without thinking. Well, as a human, I have something called memory that allows me to project past experiences into the future, which means I can remember when my wife was in a better mood and my kids were little angels.

I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

What 'reward'?

Uncle Tractor: vertiaset: Way to go Captain Godwin.

You're welcome. [insert subsequent smack down]

Well, I guess this is deserved:

FitzShivering: vertiaset: he best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....

FWIW, since all your quotes come from the exact same place, you may want to read:

Link (new window)

Just thought I'd highlight this little bit from your link:

But more damaging to Trevor-Roper's reasoning is that the Table-Talks were not private! Hitler knew all along that the scribes were there to give an account of him for future posterity. These were as public as any of Hitler's letters and pre-written speeches. So in what sense could these 'loose' conversations reveal more than letters and speeches? Trevor-Roper nor anyone else gives us a good answer.

Anti_illuminati: Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

Why are you blessing Wisconsinites again?

The New and Improved Lord's Prayer
Our Favre,
Who art in Lambeau,
Hallowed be thine arm.
The bowl will come,
It will be won.
In Phoenix as it is in Lambeau.
And give us this Sunday,
Our weekly win.
And give us many touchdown passes.
But do not let others pass against us.
Lead us not into frustration,
But deliver us to Bourbon street.
For thine is the MVP, the best of the NFC,
and the glory of the Cheeseheads,
now and forever.

Go get 'em

/yeah, I know he's retired
//still a great player

DamnYankees: I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

theorellior: genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Why is "love" predicated on God? Why do I have to explain why I love my wife and children and think that it's bad to slap them around when I'm feeling like an asshole?


To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

You are narrowly interpreting 'when it feels good' to mean a constant state of elation. Is everything about a vacation the most terrific experience in the world? No, the cost is prohibitive, you're in an unfamiliar place, weather may conflict, travel is nightmarish, and more. Does not mean you don't overall enjoy vacationing tremendously.

In the experience of having a wife and children, if it stops feeling good we're not speaking of having a small fight or similar, but a persistent state where divorce is the most reasonable option for both of you who are devoid of love for one another.

JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

No I'm not. People were killed in Russia because they were religious, and they were killed because the state believed religion was evil and harmful and should be wiped out. It wasn't incredibly widespread, but it happened.

There's nothing stopping an atheist from hating religious so much he kills people out of his hatred.

DamnYankees: I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

It's all bullshiat anyway. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Bad people who want to think they are good people, use ideology as their excuse for doing bad things. the actual ideology is irrelevant. morality and decency are products of character - they don't come from faith, politics, philosophy or culture.

genner: DamnYankees: genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

I am curious about something you said. Do you you believe that for those who do not believe in God, good = what feels good?

genner: To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

Well, considering atheists *do* have morality, I don't see what kind of explanation you need. I exist. Done.