FARK.com: (4490560) Fort Lauderdale residents complain of militant atheism on the march; billboard in question reads "Being a good person doesn't require God. Don't believe in God? You're not alone"

2009-07-05 04:40:30 PM

"The members of the community cite two main problems: born-again Christians own the business right next to the sign, and the billboard is located right in the middle of an African-American community."

/won't even start

Cewley

2009-07-05 05:07:16 PM

i live in fort lauderdale, and that sign doesn't offend me in the least. in fact, they should make it permanent.

cheshirecatsmileyface

2009-07-05 05:19:48 PM

As a black person and a Christian, that doesn't bother me in the least. You don't have to believe in God to be a good person. But maybe that's because my faith isn't contingent on everybody else believing the same thing. Or maybe I just know how to mind my own damn business. *finger snap*headshake*

Godscrack

2009-07-05 05:22:31 PM

For farks sake. It's just a billboard with words on it.

It's not like it's using any kind of threatening language to terrify those who are easily lead.

robmilmel

2009-07-05 05:29:05 PM

"I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.'

No it doesn't, you stupid fat cow.

2009-07-05 05:29:12 PM

Wow, how militant! How dare someone even suggest that being an Atheist is ok!

This is obviously a War on Christianity.

Stays Crunchy in Milk

2009-07-05 05:32:49 PM

Kliffoth: This is obviously a War on Christianity.

Jesus wanted us to hate everything, it's really what he was all about.
Oh, and he was white and had long, straight hair and blue eyes.

2009-07-05 05:34:00 PM

Stays Crunchy in Milk: Kliffoth: This is obviously a War on Christianity.

Jesus wanted us to hate everything, it's really what he was all about.
Oh, and he was white and had long, straight hair and blue eyes.

Praise White Jesus!

/Ruckus

heap

2009-07-05 05:37:35 PM

Earguy: /actual picture of Big Mama

who charred santa?

CruiserTwelve

2009-07-05 05:39:26 PM

"It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

Yeah, that God thing is working out really well for you, huh?

SphericalTime

2009-07-05 05:41:34 PM

Kliffoth: Wow, how militant! How dare someone even suggest that being an Atheist is ok!

This is obviously a War on Christianity.

They should be stoned to death for questioning the existence of God, just like it says in the Constitution!

Typhoid

2009-07-05 05:43:10 PM

Because that's SO not like the "-GOD" billboards and Anti-Choice billboards that I see everywhere.

Hindmost

2009-07-05 05:43:31 PM

Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

2009-07-05 05:45:44 PM

SphericalTime: They should be stoned to death for questioning the existence of God, just like it says in the Constitution!

Remember "Eternal suffering awaits those who question God's infinite love."

/Book of Hicks - Chapter 3 Verse 1
//RIP Bill

fusillade762

2009-07-05 05:47:04 PM

Cue the "help, help we're being oppressed" gif.

G2V

2009-07-05 05:47:33 PM

Business is going downhill because of an unrelated billboard nearby? If only one could beg the favor of some sort of omnipotent being to spare him/her from the unfairness of it all.

That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

reillan

2009-07-05 05:48:44 PM

And yet, you are alone. So very alone.

2009-07-05 05:49:14 PM

Christians: I'm pretty sure your god doesn't exist. Even if he does, why should I worship him? Most of his followers are pieces of shiat.

/Reading Dan Barker's godless at the moment.

oldebayer

2009-07-05 05:49:15 PM

Stays Crunchy in Milk

Jesus wanted us to hate everything, it's really what he was all about.
Oh, and he was white and had long, straight hair and blue eyes.

I thought he was black, but albino.

TheGreatZarquon

2009-07-05 05:50:41 PM

FTA: "The women and blacks in this neighborhood, they've been discriminated before, in the recent past, as early as 30, 40 years ago," Loukinen said, "and yet, they have no problem discriminating against another group, whether it be gays or atheists."

i4.photobucket.com

Sounds like someone got told.

2009-07-05 05:51:08 PM

Atheism is a Religion.

MBK

2009-07-05 05:52:30 PM

To play devil's advocate...

If you are going to complain about signs that are pro-religion, then you shouldn't complain about the protesters who dislike "anti-religion" signs. If you do, doesn't it make you hypocritical?

DarnoKonrad

2009-07-05 05:52:34 PM

Billboards. That is militant. Think of the children. They must be stopped.

leonel

2009-07-05 05:52:37 PM

Pardon me for questioning, but I don't see any references to militant atheism anywhere in the article.

Would this be called a "strawman" statement or something?

2009-07-05 05:52:50 PM

Annnnd retarded....

Christians have the mindset of a 16 year old girl with some other girl talking to their boyfriend.

/cue the 'what teh fark' from the morons who labeled me republican

alternative girlfriend

2009-07-05 05:53:00 PM

G2V: That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

Well, actually, the term "Free Thinker" goes back to the enlightenment, and covers the very beginnings of modern atheism as a movement. It meant that those that were part of that movement were thinking outside the conventions of the Catholic Church or the Protestant churches.

It also covered people that weren't necessarily atheists, but didn't accept religion as conceived the Man.

So, it's an old term, and looking at the history of it, it does make sense to use.

/history lesson of the day Farkers
//slashies!!!

safety-math

2009-07-05 05:53:51 PM

I think religious billboards are silly in general. An atheism one, maybe even more so, because some god-fearing motorist isn't going to see it and suddenly have a revelation..."Wait! You don't have to believe in God to be a good person?!" Realizing that, when one has been brought up Christian, takes a lot more effort. In most cases, anyways.

Minsky

2009-07-05 05:53:52 PM

Typhoid: Because that's SO not like the "-GOD" billboards and Anti-Choice billboards that I see everywhere.

The part I find cool is that it isn't. They could easily have made up an anti-religion billboard which was negative and threatening.

But they didn't. Instead it opens with a positive message for everyone, and goes on to reassure people who are uncomfortable in their lack of belief.

Unfortunately, people for whom disagreement is a threat will always react negatively. Poor souls.

DarkLancelot

2009-07-05 05:53:56 PM

cheshirecatsmileyface: As a black person and a Christian, that doesn't bother me in the least. You don't have to believe in God to be a good person. But maybe that's because my faith isn't contingent on everybody else believing the same thing. Or maybe I just know how to mind my own damn business. *finger snap*headshake*

Oh no you didn't! As a atheist I just follow the Golden Rule. I treat others as I'd like to be treated. Since I'm not a masochist or sociopath I tend to be good following this ideal.

Werehamster

2009-07-05 05:54:08 PM

As someone who was an atheist for many years, yeah, this doesn't surprise me at allm

The Voice of Doom

2009-07-05 05:54:09 PM

FTA: The sign states: [..] www.freethoughflorida.com

They dropped a 't' from the domain, but it still makes sense.

CaptainWes

2009-07-05 05:54:13 PM

RevMercutio

2009-07-05 05:54:14 PM

robmilmel: "I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.'

No it doesn't, you stupid fat cow.

That ninth commandment was more of a suggestion to "Big Mama".

2009-07-05 05:54:16 PM

MaritimeGirl

2009-07-05 05:54:56 PM

"Big Mama" needs to learn how to read.

Scifientologist

2009-07-05 05:55:02 PM

Free speech is a biatch aint it?

That knock you hear is the First Amendment at your door. I wouldn't answer, it has a machete.

2009-07-05 05:55:06 PM

StampedingElephant

2009-07-05 05:55:29 PM

Free Speech is a biatch. If you don't like someone's message, counter with a message of your own.

/Thank you LBJ, for banning billboards in DC and the Beltway!

Mordant

2009-07-05 05:55:55 PM

saneyman

2009-07-05 05:56:13 PM

As soon as this thread becomes longer than the Steve McNair one I will surely do a mandatory facepalm

/got the feeling i wont be waiting long

alternative girlfriend

2009-07-05 05:56:16 PM

If you are going to complain about signs that are pro-religion, then you shouldn't complain about the protesters who dislike "anti-religion" signs. If you do, doesn't it make you hypocritical?

Well yes and no. It isn't hypocritical to point out others' hypocracy, though continue to tolerate them, but it would be to tell these people they have to go away.

ggecko

2009-07-05 05:56:48 PM

"I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

So, is she trying to say it is only athiest kids killing each other? Afterall, those that believe in God, they wouldn't do such a thing, right?

2009-07-05 05:57:01 PM

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

To generate traffic to its site and cause and hopefully recover the costs through donations. Come on man, this is America - get with the program.

2009-07-05 05:57:41 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Letrole is letrole.

Elvis_Pelt

2009-07-05 05:58:03 PM

Kudos for riling up the plebes.

accelerus

2009-07-05 05:58:10 PM

don't bible beaters use the term "Christian Soldier" or "Army of God" rather frequently. Seems to me they are the ones that have war on the mind.

Didn't know the magic sky wizard a human army, omnipotent my ass!

Anyone else thing it's funny how they would be rejoicing if it was a pro-jesus bilboard. How about we take away both sets of freedom?

Bible beaters can't put up pro-jesus ANYTHING
Atheists can't put up pro-nothing ANYTHING

I have a feeling if that course of action were taken, the atheists would be the "winners"

DarnoKonrad

2009-07-05 05:58:28 PM

2009-07-05 05:58:55 PM

Nemo's Brother: Those intolerant black business owners are at it again.

LOL sarcasm fails. I own a business next to a black business owner. He's the more intolerant fark I've ever seen...ever. And I've been to Israel...

The Madd Man

2009-07-05 05:59:16 PM

quietwalker

2009-07-05 06:00:00 PM

CruiserTwelve: "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

Yeah, that God thing is working out really well for you, huh?

Came here to say this. I feel good that someone else said it first.

Sure, you could, I dunno, raise kids in a responsible manner, and put your efforts into educating them, ensuring there are good jobs, proper medical care ...

or you could spend that time protesting in the name of jesus, praying, and spending nonproductive hours at your place of worship, waiting for things to actually, literally be fixed with magic.

You make your own bed, you lie it.

Scifientologist

2009-07-05 06:00:31 PM

or in other words:

nicedeb.files.wordpress.com

Vampirococcus rocks

2009-07-05 06:00:42 PM

Down in sunny Fla three or more Jesus bumper stickers means all the car's windows will be rolled down in July. Six or more means they will have a clip-on fan (nonworking of course) hanging off the visor.

GOD doesn't listen to your prayers unless you tithe.

ZipSplat

2009-07-05 06:00:44 PM

GODDAMMIT! Why the hell do local news websites have so much goddamn trouble using working video embeds.

Cerebral Ballsy

2009-07-05 06:02:04 PM

LOL @ this is a faith-based community... yeah right. Everyone merely assumes everyone around them is religious. There's no such thing as a faith based community unless you're living in a cult, peeps. you don't have a right to not be offended, so you better just shuffle on forward and get over the billboard.

Lampmonster

2009-07-05 06:02:38 PM

ggecko: "I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

So, is she trying to say it is only athiest kids killing each other? Afterall, those that believe in God, they wouldn't do such a thing, right?

Of course. You know the prisons are full of atheists. Except of course for the fact that they're not. In fact atheists make up a smaller portion of the prison population than theists. Of course when you tell theists this they'll calmly tell you that the reason for this is that atheists pretend to be theists to get out of jail early. Seriously. Had that conversation more than once.

xuanzhiyouxuan

2009-07-05 06:03:18 PM

If your god doesn't immediately send a plague of frogs against these atheist bilboardists and you don't immediately declare yourselves Jeffersonian deists, I will call shenanigans on your entire system of belief.

arbysauce

2009-07-05 06:03:20 PM

"There are people that come in here complaining about the sign," he said, "and that's not good for the business, and it's not good for the neighborhood."

Jesus, how is it bad for business? I could understand if it was next to a Korean salon and said "This gook salon gave me herpes." That would be inflammatory and bad for business. Lighten up morons.

2009-07-05 06:03:22 PM

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

Because just like you have theists that are insecure in thier faith and are scared that they're wrong, you have athiests who are insecure in thiers. And yes, I believe that it requires faith to believe in the existance of God... or to actively deny the existence of God. (I'm an agnostic if you can't tell; I'll leave it unsaid if I'm an athiest agnostic or a thiest agnostic) Anyways, just like the insecure thiests, insecure athiests want a group of likeminded people to associate with so that they will have a group with which they can collectively reinforce each others belief structure.

You don't care about broadcasting your faith in the lack of existance of the tooth fairy, because you have no problem maintaining that faith. The tooth fairy's nonexistance is not something that you question, so you have no need to seek outside affirmation of your belief.

CruiserTwelve

2009-07-05 06:03:24 PM

W. T. Fark: First sensible thing I've ever heard you say.

So a post is only sensible if you agree with it. I see how that works now.

2009-07-05 06:03:36 PM

Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what. What are they to do? This thread is full of torn emotions. I love it

2009-07-05 06:03:36 PM

The Madd Man: CruiserTwelve:
Yeah, that God thing is working out really well for you, huh?

Not really. Things went downhill after he was kicked out of public schools.

Farkshower1972

2009-07-05 06:03:46 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

G2V

2009-07-05 06:04:46 PM

Mordant: G2V: That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

win them over to what ?

To not facepalmingly immediate alarmist hate. Not that I ever really expect otherwise in the current atmosphere, mind you.

Galileo's Daughter

2009-07-05 06:05:23 PM

South Florida is becoming pretty nicely divided between born again Christians (from Calvary Chapel and Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church) and atheists/agnostics.

"Being a good person doesn't require God" could also apply to Buddhists. Is this a backlash of sorts against the black "God" billboards that are ubiquitous here?

Scifientologist

2009-07-05 06:05:28 PM

bushbot111: Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what. What are they to do? This thread is full of torn emotions. I love it

Speak for yourself. I hate everybody equally.

2009-07-05 06:05:35 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.
Uncle Tractor: Letrole is letrole.

My surname is Le Trôle.

Farkshower1972

2009-07-05 06:05:39 PM

genner: Not really. Things went downhill after he was kicked out of public schools.

As long as there are pop quizzes, there will be prayer in public schools.

m2313

2009-07-05 06:05:39 PM

Vampirococcus rocks: GOD doesn't listen to your prayers unless you tithe.

And even then he never does anything about it.

Seth'n'Spectrum

2009-07-05 06:05:52 PM

/more or less mandatory

mandingueiro

2009-07-05 06:07:03 PM

because reaching out to people in good will is not what religion is about....ok. got it.

/its funny that their complaint is about lost revenue as opposed to humanitarian values

Farkshower1972

2009-07-05 06:07:18 PM

m2313: And even then he never does anything about it.

"Well, you know, when you want something really bad and you close your eyes and you wish for it? God's the guy that ignores you. " ~ Steve Buscemi, The Island

2009-07-05 06:07:18 PM

CruiserTwelve: sensible

Well if you look up the definition of sensible and the fact it was used objectively I don't really see what you're trying to say.

ZipSplat

2009-07-05 06:07:32 PM

bushbot111: Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what. What are they to do? This thread is full of torn emotions. I love it

You must be new...

2009-07-05 06:08:17 PM

2009-07-05 06:08:37 PM

Farkshower1972: genner: Not really. Things went downhill after he was kicked out of public schools.

As long as there are pop quizzes, there will be prayer in public schools.

How long before the courts outlaw pop quizzes to seperate church and state?

2009-07-05 06:08:56 PM

Farkshower1972: Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

Not really. I've never heard of fanatics leaping up to argue the the point about hair colour.

Dimplehumper

2009-07-05 06:09:13 PM

agoratrader: Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

To generate traffic to its site and cause and hopefully recover the costs through donations. Come on man, this is America - get with the program.

Hold on, I think you've just hit on a nice little business plan...

1) Set up website for rational arguments on atheism. Secure sponsorship of Christian paraphenalia companies and associated prayer scams.
2) Install billboard with mildly inflammatory statement re: God
3) Traffic to website and sponsors is driven by the religious, who come to condemn the heretics and vent their displeasure, and end up buying products representing the visitors POV
4) Profit

Alternately, set up the first website as a red herring. The big bucks could come from a second anti-billboard reactionary site. Ooh, the astroturfing potential...

2009-07-05 06:09:46 PM

agoratrader: objectively

Yeah I screwed that up. fark it.

vinegargar

2009-07-05 06:09:57 PM

Because just like you have theists that are insecure in thier faith and are scared that they're wrong, you have athiests who are insecure in thiers. And yes, I believe that it requires faith to believe in the existance of God... or to actively deny the existence of God.

and where in your grand theory does the absence of faith fall?

Judith_Butler's_Hairflip

2009-07-05 06:10:10 PM

These are the same kind of people who think it is totally cool to cast out the 'gay demon' from a 16 year old boy.

What the fark is wrong with people? I mean, in all the world, there is nothing else that bothers them more than a billboard? Really?

Cyber_Junk

2009-07-05 06:10:17 PM

Farkshower1972 2009-07-05 06:03:46 PM
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

Err, you did read his Fark name...right?

girljen

2009-07-05 06:10:30 PM

G2V

2009-07-05 06:10:48 PM

vertiaset:
One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

One of my main problems with religious people is that many, certainly not all, churches require you to kill someone and bathe in their blood in order to be baptised. Also, they are commanded by god to kill one unbeliever per week or, even worse, to commit drive by strafings of churches of different belief systems.

Manic_Repressive

2009-07-05 06:11:13 PM

Philip J. Fry

2009-07-05 06:11:58 PM

I'm always a little uneasy around religious people who think that fear of punishment from god is the only thing keeping humans moral.

It's as if the only thing standing between some of these people and a psychopathic killing spree ending in an massacre at a Unitarian Church is the fear of eternal damnation. (By their loving, benevolent god who only wants the best for you, of course.)

2009-07-05 06:12:12 PM

Cyber_Junk:Err, you did read his Fark name...right?

My surname is Le Trôle.

legendary fool

2009-07-05 06:13:13 PM

The billboard messages from god show up all the time in my town. I've always thought that money could be better spent in some community program rather than renting advertising space. Although if it was me and I had the money I'd have someone post lolcats up on one or two of those billboards.

aselene

2009-07-05 06:13:15 PM

This kind of hate speech wouldn't be tolerated if the roles were reversed. The ACLU would already be suing to have it covered over with the Muslim crescent. It just goes to show the double standard between atheist speech and religious speech.

2009-07-05 06:15:13 PM

vertiaset: After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

LOL. Nice faulty syllogism. Here's a better one: if there's no Big Man up there to make sure I act nice, maybe I'd have to take the responsibility on myself, which means I am actually more moral than theists.

2009-07-05 06:15:21 PM

"There are people that come in here complaining about the sign," he said, "and that's not good for the business, and it's not good for the neighborhood."

The people complaining about an effort to foster support and community among atheists are demonstrating precisely why these efforts are still needed.

"Who else are they going to believe in?"

I guess "each other" just isn't grandiose enough for her.

SapperInTexas

2009-07-05 06:16:40 PM

If your religion and your god are so awesome, how is it that a simple billboard can threaten you so?

"I saw a sign that told me not to believe in God, and it came true!"

/boo hoo
//buy your own farking sign
///cut me some slack

www.thewag.net

Lampmonster

2009-07-05 06:16:48 PM

m2313

2009-07-05 06:17:08 PM

vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

Most of the nihilists are in a fundamentalist church. You can tell when you hear phrases like "There's nothing in this world for me but Jesus's love", "A world without god is meaningless", and "I look forward to the new world above in Heaven".

ZombieStomper

2009-07-05 06:17:22 PM

FTA:<i>"It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"</i>

Ummm...how about THEMSELVES for a start?

brynaldo

2009-07-05 06:18:15 PM

Seth'n'Spectrum: /more or less mandatory

No arguing with that sign.

beoswulf

2009-07-05 06:18:59 PM

Replace Muslim with fundamentalist Christian, line these up leading to South Carolina

/sign I can agree with.

2009-07-05 06:19:31 PM

/its funny that their complaint is about lost revenue as opposed to humanitarian values

Funny, sad, wince-inducing -- same shiat, different initial reaction.

/and why do I hear some old guy repeating "all of this has happened before, and will happen again" over and over?

2009-07-05 06:20:00 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Religion is a sport.
War is a hobby.
Plastic is a philosophy.
Abrasion is an art form.
Mathematics is a perversion.

Hey - I can do this all day long! :D

Corvus

2009-07-05 06:21:17 PM

So my city having a giant cross on public land is ok but people privately having a billboard like this is not?

This is complete bullshiat.

I am really sick of these intolerant people who believe if your not chritstian you have no right to be an American.

2009-07-05 06:21:31 PM

jso2897: letrole: Plastic is a philosophy.

I agree with the rest, but this one's a bit of a stretch.

Cerebral Ballsy

2009-07-05 06:21:48 PM

aselene: This kind of hate speech wouldn't be tolerated if the roles were reversed. The ACLU would already be suing to have it covered over with the Muslim crescent. It just goes to show the double standard between atheist speech and religious speech.

Bullsh*t, you douche.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/348533695_32cdf50adc.jpg?v=0

The old "You're going to hell" boogeyman billboard. These are ALL OVER here in Florida. The one thing atheist billboards don't do is lie and tell you you're going to some made up place after death.

2009-07-05 06:22:37 PM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

I'm sure you'll be able to cite figures backing that up. After, if atheists are amoral, their crime and imprisonment rates should be substantially higher than those of men and women of faith, right?

Ooopth.

After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

Your dog's an atheist. How can you trust him not to eat your entire family the minute your back's turned?

Gee, there must be some other basis for morality besides religion.

furterfan

2009-07-05 06:23:02 PM

When you have something like this here, people don't want to come and patronize us anymore," said Theodore Hamilton

so the problem isnt with the sign, it's with the intolerance, prejudice and pettymindedness of other christians

Cerebral Ballsy

2009-07-05 06:23:14 PM

The old "You're going to hell" boogeyman billboard. These are ALL OVER here in Florida. The one thing atheist billboards don't do is lie and tell you you're going to some made up place after death.

Now with working html goodness and going to hell badness

2009-07-05 06:23:21 PM

aselene: This kind of hate speech wouldn't be tolerated if the roles were reversed. The ACLU would already be suing to have it covered over with the Muslim crescent. It just goes to show the double standard between atheist speech and religious speech.

Damn right. Why, if I had a nickel for every Chinaman who's stolen my apricots, Shia LeBouf would be president of Guam!

2009-07-05 06:23:38 PM

m2313: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

Most of the nihilists are in a fundamentalist church. You can tell when you hear phrases like "There's nothing in this world for me but Jesus's love", "A world without god is meaningless", and "I look forward to the new world above in Heaven".

Well that would be nihilistic if they stopped believeing in God.

nm651984

2009-07-05 06:23:40 PM

Ahh, America...Land of the Free, Home of the "Believe in what I believe in or else I'll kick your ass and sue the shiat out of you for challenging me and making me think differently."

mikelfritz

2009-07-05 06:23:44 PM

DarkLancelot:
Oh no you didn't! As a atheist I just follow the Golden Rule. I treat others as I'd like to be treated. Since I'm not a masochist or sociopath I tend to be good following this ideal.

Then why did you do that to me last night?

2009-07-05 06:24:39 PM

W. T. Fark: jso2897: letrole: Plastic is a philosophy.

I agree with the rest, but this one's a bit of a stretch.

That was the only one that's actually true, you fool!!

Sabyen91

2009-07-05 06:24:55 PM

letrole: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.
Uncle Tractor: Letrole is letrole.

My surname is Le Trôle.

Deja vu. It is almost like I've seen this conversation about 30 times before.

Corvus

2009-07-05 06:25:26 PM

Paid with government funds on public property.

mikelfritz

2009-07-05 06:26:01 PM

And to ward off that response; No one would like it. And I most certainly did not!

DarkLancelot

2009-07-05 06:26:11 PM

mikelfritz: DarkLancelot:
Oh no you didn't! As a atheist I just follow the Golden Rule. I treat others as I'd like to be treated. Since I'm not a masochist or sociopath I tend to be good following this ideal.

Then why did you do that to me last night?

Your happy face button gave implied consent. I thought everyone who wore one of those knew that.

Lampmonster

2009-07-05 06:26:52 PM

G2V

2009-07-05 06:27:05 PM

vertiaset:
Durrr ... durrr ...

Tsk, now you're just repeating yourself.

hej

2009-07-05 06:27:08 PM

We had one of those signs in KC. Seeing it made me happy, though I was a little disappointed to see their website was a little empty.

2009-07-05 06:27:12 PM

Man On Pink Corner: vertiaset:

Your dog's an atheist. How can you trust him not to eat your entire family the minute your back's turned?

Gee, there must be some other basis for morality besides religion.

So we smack everyone who doesn't behave with a rolled up newspaper....that could work.

m2313

2009-07-05 06:27:24 PM

genner: Well that would be nihilistic if they stopped believeing in God.

That's the thing though, they're more likely to be amoral than the atheists (default and ex-religious) I know. Especially if they think they will get a second chance.

Not that there's not amoral atheists, I'm just sayin'.

Sabyen91

2009-07-05 06:27:51 PM

dbaggins

2009-07-05 06:27:52 PM

Lsyn

2009-07-05 06:28:41 PM

This christian group's idiotic behavior fills me with such anti-christian rage that it's hard to form a coherent thought.

Believe what you like. Not everyone on the planet has to agree with you. Why is this so hard for some people to accept?

2009-07-05 06:28:44 PM

ZipSplat: bushbot111: Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what. What are they to do? This thread is full of torn emotions. I love it

You must be new...

Not hardly....try not to cry

Byno

2009-07-05 06:29:29 PM

m2313:
Most of the nihilists are in a fundamentalist church. You can tell when you hear phrases like "There's nothing in this world for me but Jesus's love", "A world without god is meaningless", and "I look forward to the new world above in Heaven".

Is that nihilism or solipsism, though?

Also, just because I haven't seen him in a while:

towntek.com

2009-07-05 06:30:13 PM

m2313: genner: Well that would be nihilistic if they stopped believeing in God.

That's the thing though, they're more likely to be amoral than the atheists (default and ex-religious) I know. Especially if they think they will get a second chance.

Not that there's not amoral atheists, I'm just sayin'.

All world views have idiots that make the whole group look bad.

phatbeatz

2009-07-05 06:30:52 PM

Fallguyx

2009-07-05 06:31:39 PM

G2V: Business is going downhill because of an unrelated billboard nearby? If only one could beg the favor of some sort of omnipotent being to spare him/her from the unfairness of it all.

That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

Free thought is a reference to the term phrase 'unfettered thought' meaning able to think critically and rationally without fetters or limitations. The belief is that those who believe in an invisible man are limiting themselves and their thoughts to what their invisible man finds acceptable.

/I cackled with glee when my friend Mohammed ate bacon for the first time and then learned it came from swine.
//He said it was one of the most amazing things he had ever eaten
///He now consumes more pork products than I do and he believes honey-baked ham is damn near sacred.
////yes he is muslim

2009-07-05 06:32:11 PM

"Militant Atheists?"

So me saying that you shouldn't force YOUR stupid beliefs onto my life is being militant?

You can't argue with the religious stupids, they think already they won the debate before it starts.

2009-07-05 06:32:20 PM

Not hardly....try not to cry

2009-03-17 19:29:40

Relatively speaking, you're new here.

Not that registration date or length of lurking matters - even if you'd been among the first hundred Farkers, that initial comment would still fall somewhere between "troll" and "wtf is this person yammering on about?"

2009-07-05 06:33:26 PM

My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

2009-07-05 06:33:57 PM

ZipSplat: GODDAMMIT! Why the hell do local news websites have so much goddamn trouble using working video embeds.

Try one of these (or both):

Fox (new window).

Examiner (new window).

IMO that billboard is pretty tame compared with the things I'd put up.

"Life is too short waste in church!"
"You're too old to have imaginary friends."
"Your God will go the way of Wothun."

Maybe something about the FSM as well.

40oz_A_Knight

2009-07-05 06:34:09 PM

Loukinen said he felt bad about any collateral affect the sign may have had on businesses in the area. "I apologize if it's going to affect any business. That's definitely not our intention, and we didn't choose this area specifically. This was one of the billboards available to us."

After seeing the billboard, Team of Life community activist Essie "Big Mama" Reed brought her students out to protest it Wednesday afternoon. "Nothing else matters, but that sign needs to come down. In the name of Jesus," Big Mama chanted, as she led her students in protest.

She said the sign affects something much deeper than business. "I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

Fark you, you stupid fat biatch. Maybe if the "community" would do a better job raising their farking kids they wouldn't be such wastes of oxygen.

austerity101

2009-07-05 06:34:25 PM

OK I'm going to leave the lambasting of the people from the article to the rest o' y'all because I don't even need to add anything there to draw attention to the extreme farkwittery that is coming from these people.

But in light of the article, I think this billboard is well placed. Why? Because this community is so vociferously anti-atheist, that if I were an atheist living around them, I'd be terrified. At least this way, there is some sort of outreach for these people. A little idealistic, but I think it works.

letrole: My surname is Le Trôle.

That surname doesn't exist. But, my day is always brightened by your thinly veiled comments.

2009-07-05 06:35:58 PM

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

True Value

2009-07-05 06:36:44 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

My parrot is so religious.

rat_brain_flies_plane

2009-07-05 06:37:28 PM

"Being a good person doesn't require God."

Geez at three years old I must have been a little Buddha or something.

True Value

2009-07-05 06:37:42 PM

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a ~~hundred~~ few years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

FTFY

2009-07-05 06:37:48 PM

If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

2009-07-05 06:38:32 PM

genner: James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why not?

2009-07-05 06:38:33 PM

genner: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Just because I don't believe in a sky fairy doesn't mean I don't care about the futures of my country, of the planet, of the species, and of my children, you dumb piece of shiat.

40oz_A_Knight

2009-07-05 06:38:34 PM

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

Yeah, as if the Big 3 leave that much room for debauchery :/

2009-07-05 06:39:49 PM

PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

wrightb71

2009-07-05 06:41:23 PM

does this mean the religious billboards outside of porn stores taken down?

TripSixes

2009-07-05 06:41:32 PM

Scifientologist: ggecko: "I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

Reason?

clipperbox

2009-07-05 06:41:46 PM

DarkLancelot

2009-07-05 06:41:58 PM

2009-07-05 06:42:45 PM

vertiaset: I agree with the author of the billboard atheists SHOULD adopt an ethical system to replace the one they have rejected when they rejected faith.

Because an overwhelming problem amongst atheists is lacking a view of ethics and morality?

I would insist theists SHOULD adopt an ethical system to replace the one they have rejected when they accepted faith. No real review of the good or evil of a deity, merely the word of said deity accepted. Further problems arise because the deity is capable of changing what is good or evil, therefore no objective morality exists, merely a subjective morality removed a step beyond humans. If, of course, the deity is incapable of changing what is good or evil, I would suggest we revere whatever codified such rules which a supposed omnipotent being is incapable of changing.

Fallguyx

2009-07-05 06:43:06 PM

Dimplehumper: agoratrader: Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

To generate traffic to its site and cause and hopefully recover the costs through donations. Come on man, this is America - get with the program.

Hold on, I think you've just hit on a nice little business plan...

1) Set up website for rational arguments on atheism. Secure sponsorship of Christian paraphenalia companies and associated prayer scams.
2) Install billboard with mildly inflammatory statement re: God
3) Traffic to website and sponsors is driven by the religious, who come to condemn the heretics and vent their displeasure, and end up buying products representing the visitors POV
4) Profit

Alternately, set up the first website as a red herring. The big bucks could come from a second anti-billboard reactionary site. Ooh, the astroturfing potential...

Your newsletter sir...i'd like to subscribe, and invest a substantial sum of money, $10,000,000 in fact, but in order to secure my investment I will need a small advance of $50,000 to prove you are serious about proceeding. These moneys will be used to handle the paperwork, setting up office and whorehouse space for distribution, printing of stock certificates and press releases...etc etc.

rat_brain_flies_plane

2009-07-05 06:43:37 PM

genner: Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

Yes yes THIS is sound logic...

-_-

sn0r

2009-07-05 06:44:28 PM

/hot like the fires of an angry nova.

libbynomore2

2009-07-05 06:45:10 PM

Being a good person doesn't require God.

Funny, you'd never know that here....in fact, if farkers were the example people used, the world would assume that atheists are among the most mean and cruel human beings on the planet.

2009-07-05 06:45:18 PM

eqtworld

Where is thst?

crappie

2009-07-05 06:45:22 PM

MrLint

2009-07-05 06:46:01 PM

Godscrack: For farks sake. It's just a billboard with words on it.

It's not like it's using any kind of threatening language to terrify those who are easily lead.

That first billboard, and its sentiment are really morally bankrupt. What kind of system is setup such that if you haven't followed the rules well enough for less than 100 years, you suffer eternal torment with no hope of rehabilitation. This is not what I would describe as a 'loving' arrangement. Its really one big sting operation. Set you up in a scheme with 'temptations' just so that you can fail.

Ghastly

2009-07-05 06:46:11 PM

m2313: Vampirococcus rocks: GOD doesn't listen to your prayers unless you tithe.

And even then he never does anything about it.

That's why I always pray to the Jug Of Milk, that way I'm assured of results.

2009-07-05 06:46:17 PM

phatbeatz: that is a harsh generalization you make that atheists are all amoral heathens. i don't classify myself as atheist, but i know people that do and honestly, they tend to harbor more good intent than a lot of the christians i know.

One of the very first things that started turning me away from religion was when I realized in high school that most people I knew who were the most vocal about their faith were also the ones who engaged in behavior counter to their professed beliefs the most frequently.

hej

2009-07-05 06:46:24 PM

safety-math: I think religious billboards are silly in general. An atheism one, maybe even more so, because some god-fearing motorist isn't going to see it and suddenly have a revelation..."Wait! You don't have to believe in God to be a good person?!" Realizing that, when one has been brought up Christian, takes a lot more effort. In most cases, anyways.

As indicated by the message, the intent is not to convert non-atheists. The purpose is to organize the existing atheists into a more cohesive community. Which you probably also think is a stupid idea, if you're like most Farkers.

2009-07-05 06:47:16 PM

These threads have posturing in them than a high school play.

Carry on. : )

TopoGigo

2009-07-05 06:47:18 PM

Am I the only one who sees "Big Mama" as a black Nancy Grace, with a different target for her outrage?

G2V

2009-07-05 06:47:25 PM

genner:
Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

I like people. I don't know if it's upbringing, or chemical processess occurring in my head, but go figure.

Besides, wishing for a nicer world is simply logical. The more niceness to go around, the more likely you are to encounter some yourself.

I mean, is the only reason you care about people because you'll be rewarded for it by God?

2009-07-05 06:47:39 PM

DarkLancelot: genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

Because I'm a human, which is a pack animal. I want my pack to thrive as they will include my progeny. Why do I need an immortal soul to hope for continual human progress?

Does your whole system of empathy revolve around your ability to reproduce? What happens to people who don't have kids?

2009-07-05 06:48:18 PM

2009-07-05 06:49:49 PM

Godscrack: For farks sake. It's just a billboard with words on it.

It's not like it's using any kind of threatening language to terrify those who are easily lead.

We have one relatively near-by that says "HELL is real" with Hell in big flame-filled letters.

No, not threatening at all.

Lehk

2009-07-05 06:50:02 PM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

citation needed

dskot1

2009-07-05 06:50:03 PM

DarkLancelot: genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

Because I'm a human, which is a pack animal. I want my pack to thrive as they will include my progeny. Why do I need an immortal soul to hope for continual human progress?

THIS! What the fundies don't understand is athiests do "the right thing" because it is good for humanity, "believers" do it so they can earn a ticket to their exclusive afterlife party.

simpsonfan

2009-07-05 06:50:06 PM

Memo to these idiots: Freedom of Speech doesn't apply just to those you agree with it. Either put up your own billboard, or go move to North Korea.

2009-07-05 06:50:12 PM

1)farkshower:
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.
wow...can I borrow that?...

2)jso2897
"Why, if I had a nickel for every Chinaman who's stolen my apricots, Shia LeBouf would be president of Guam!"
you are my hero,although I have no clue what that means....

2009-07-05 06:50:35 PM

genner: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Understanding I am irrecoverably gone when I die does not mean my wants for the future of my children and further are any less true. If I feel good about doing good, I need no other rationale than my genetic predisposition towards altruism.

G2V

2009-07-05 06:50:39 PM

genner:
Does your whole system of empathy revolve around your ability to reproduce? What happens to people who don't have kids?

That's silly, non-reproductive members of a pack can still be very beneficial.

2009-07-05 06:50:43 PM

libbynomore2: Being a good person doesn't require God.

Funny, you'd never know that here....in fact, if farkers were the example people used, the world would assume that atheists are among the most mean and cruel human beings on the planet.

"Mean" and "cruel" are pretty strong words for people who back up their views with bombs and bullets to be applying to people who just talk too much.

LordJiro

2009-07-05 06:51:24 PM

vertiaset: G2V
vertiaset:
One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

One of my main problems with religious people is that many, certainly not all, churches require you to kill someone and bathe in their blood in order to be baptised. Also, they are commanded by god to kill one unbeliever per week or, even worse, to commit drive by strafings of churches of different belief systems.

Durrr ... durrr ...

Drr...drr... (new window)(Warning. Major nightmare fuel)

/first thing I thought of when reading your comment.

rat_brain_flies_plane

2009-07-05 06:52:20 PM

bunner: These threads have posturing in them than a high school play.

Carry on. : )

O! NOW you've gone and done it!

Carry on my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry no more

Once I rose above the noise and confusion
Just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion
I was soaring ever higher
But I flew too high

Though my eyes could see I still was a blind man
Though my mind could think I still was a mad man
I hear the voices when I'm dreaming
I can hear them say

Masquerading as a man with a reason
My charade is the event of the season
And if I claim to be a wise man, well
It surely means that I don't know

On a stormy sea of moving emotion
Tossed about I'm like a ship on the ocean
I set a course for winds of fortune
But I hear the voices say

No!

Carry on, you will always remember
Carry on, nothing equals the splendor
The center lights around your vanity
But surely heaven waits for you

Carry on my wayward son
There'll be peace when you are done
Lay your weary head to rest
Don't you cry (don't you cry no more)

2009-07-05 06:52:45 PM

jheard

2009-07-05 06:53:41 PM

2009-07-05 06:54:10 PM

genner: DarkLancelot: genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

Because I'm a human, which is a pack animal. I want my pack to thrive as they will include my progeny. Why do I need an immortal soul to hope for continual human progress?

Does your whole system of empathy revolve around your ability to reproduce? What happens to people who don't have kids?

Of course not; family isn't the sole social group humans belong to. I want my country to thrive in the future. I want my ideals, which I can pass on through any number of relationships and records, to outlive me. I want humans in general to thrive, because as a human, I feel empathy with others even though I may never know them.

/2 cents

2009-07-05 06:54:48 PM

Gone_Feral

2009-07-05 06:55:33 PM

genner: Does your whole system of empathy revolve around your ability to reproduce? What happens to people who don't have kids?

I don't have kids, but I still have hope for the future of humanity when I'm gone. Actions by others before me have led to me having a good like, which I've enjoyed immensely. People after me will enjoy their lives as well, hopefully with some positive influence I've left, but no matter if not. I won't be around either way, so it hurts nothing and costs little effort for me to hope for their bright future.

What is your hope for humanity's future?

2009-07-05 06:55:33 PM

>> Football skills (but from.....)
>> racism from ignorant black racists that are ignorant but we have to give them the stage

2009-07-05 06:56:41 PM

vertiaset: Jubeebee

One of the very first things that started turning me away from religion was when I realized in high school that most people I knew who were the most vocal about their faith were also the ones who engaged in behavior counter to their professed beliefs the most frequently.

Atheist rationalization #212: The community of the faithful contains sinners, hypocrites and others who are less than perfect. Therefore, God does not exist.

Atheist rationalization #213: The community of the faithful contains people who are deluded enough to believe anyone actually thinks the way presented in Atheist Rationalization #212. It is unlikely a omnipotent being would create a species capable of rational thought, yet intentionally leave some of its members so incapable of it that they're willing to spew such bilge, while simultaneously allowing for these to be the very people cheerleading him the most. Therefore, God is either incompetent at his job, uncaring of what occurs, or doesn't exist.

Atheist rationalization #214: There actually are no Christians any longer, just idiots who troll from their mothers' basements on messageboards.

hej

2009-07-05 06:56:49 PM

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

Don't worry, by then we'll all have adopted Scientology as the one true religion.

2009-07-05 06:57:07 PM

I am really sick of these intolerant people who believe if your not chritstian you have no right to be an American.

You know, it's not exactly that simple, but I'm a fan of this quote. Despite other debates certain to rage in this thread until it dies with a whimper, this really is about free speech.

As an aside, I don't recall myself or any of my non-believing friends getting in a huff over the umpteen gazillion God-related billboards all over this nation. In fact, I don't recall so much a casual conversation when passing one on an interstate.

It's a farking sign. Get over it.

2009-07-05 06:57:12 PM

G2V: genner:
Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

I like people. I don't know if it's upbringing, or chemical processess occurring in my head, but go figure.

Besides, wishing for a nicer world is simply logical. The more niceness to go around, the more likely you are to encounter some yourself.

I mean, is the only reason you care about people because you'll be rewarded for it by God?

That's fine in the short term. The question was about a 100 years in the future. You'll be dead so no niceness will come to you.

As for my motivation no...it's not all about rewards or punishments. I follow God because I actually like the guy.

2009-07-05 06:57:14 PM

jso2897: Hey - I can do this all day long! :D

If only more men had such great faith as you.

Gregosaurus

2009-07-05 06:57:35 PM

Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

*snicker* Gotta remember that one...excellent!

2009-07-05 06:58:11 PM

2009-07-05 06:58:51 PM

G2V: That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

I thought I might chime in with this, but atheists are unified by nothing more than a lack of belief in a deity. Many don't want to be represented by atheist organizations, perhaps with differing agendas, and some argue against the label 'atheist' entirely. Probably not the largest factor in choice of label, however.

Numerous people who might otherwise part from organized religion yet possess belief in a deity or supernatural occurrences (the supernatural is often frowned upon by atheists, thus souls and similar don't mesh too well) wouldn't join with a strictly atheistic organization. People who may not even part from organized religion but differ from the influence of organized religion outside of the adherents themselves wouldn't join a strictly atheistic organization, either. I know a few of both groups who exist, a few non-denomination theists, a couple deists, and a few Christians who would prefer the state and church do not mingle.

Further, the term "Free-Thinker" does not imply the religious are slaves or similar, in the same way being "Gay" does not imply heterosexuals are unhappy. Previously expressed were the roots of this word, too, which is an important part.

foxo

2009-07-05 06:59:09 PM

Moron Christians sacrifice their children to fight wars of aggression for the banksters,wall street and their masters in Tel Aviv.
Check out how many jewish kids are getting shot at in Iraq,Afghanistan and now Pakistan!

2009-07-05 06:59:17 PM

This is how this plays out:
The local yokels discover that they can't legally have the billboard removed.
They torch it.
The burning debris falls on the businesses they own, and burns them down.
They all hold hands a praise the Lord for his infinite wisdom and mercy.
The Aristocrats!

2009-07-05 06:59:45 PM

Whoops! Meant to quote Corvus, as in,

Corvus: I am really sick of these intolerant people who believe if your not chritstian you have no right to be an American.

2009-07-05 07:00:17 PM

letrole: jso2897: Hey - I can do this all day long! :D

If only more men had such great faith as you.

Yeah. If only. :D

2009-07-05 07:00:35 PM

Stay Cool Babylon: I am really sick of these intolerant people who believe if your not chritstian you have no right to be an American.

You know, it's not exactly that simple, but I'm a fan of this quote. Despite other debates certain to rage in this thread until it dies with a whimper, this really is about free speech.

As an aside, I don't recall myself or any of my non-believing friends getting in a huff over the umpteen gazillion God-related billboards all over this nation. In fact, I don't recall so much a casual conversation when passing one on an interstate.

It's a farking sign. Get over it.

Amen. Left, right, Christian, or atheist, people are too sensitive nowadays. Short of the sign causing wrecks or being explicitly vulgar, do whatever the heck you want on them within your region's laws for billboards.

/actually likes our HELL is Real sign
//looks like it was designed by a 4 year old, makes me giggle

2009-07-05 07:01:09 PM

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

I would like to exit the game thinking that the people who come after me will do alright in their own lives, that others will be happy and fulfilled in this world, that the efforts of those to create a better world won't be in vain.

It sounds crazy, but I actually like people (and, by extension, all life). I think life is inherently valuable simply for being able to exist. Life is a force of nature; how it started or where it will go remain unknowns to us, but it's pretty neat to be among all of... this.

The reward for living a good life is seeing the positive effects you have on others - and if your positive efforts are counteracted by the negative efforts of others who don't quite get it, that's no excuse to be a jerk yourself.

2009-07-05 07:02:06 PM

jso2897: This is how this plays out:
The local yokels discover that they can't legally have the billboard removed.
They torch it.
The burning debris falls on the businesses they own, and burns them down.
They all hold hands a praise the Lord for his infinite wisdom and mercy.
The Aristocrats!

To paraphrase an earlier Fark headline: "It'd be funny if it weren't so goddamn sad."

Because what you described is likely exactly what will happen, with slight if any modifications.

2009-07-05 07:02:33 PM

Vangor: genner: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Understanding I am irrecoverably gone when I die does not mean my wants for the future of my children and further are any less true. If I feel good about doing good, I need no other rationale than my genetic predisposition towards altruism.

What if it didn't feel good?
It doesn't always.

Sgt Otter

2009-07-05 07:02:49 PM

Jubeebee: phatbeatz: that is a harsh generalization you make that atheists are all amoral heathens. i don't classify myself as atheist, but i know people that do and honestly, they tend to harbor more good intent than a lot of the christians i know.

One of the very first things that started turning me away from religion was when I realized in high school that most people I knew who were the most vocal about their faith were also the ones who engaged in behavior counter to their professed beliefs the most frequently.

Supposedly, that's what inspired Anton LaVey to start the Church of Satan. He was a professional musician in the Bible Belt, and had two regular gigs, as the house band in a whorehouse on Friday and Saturday nights, and playing the piano in church on Sundays.

He said those that those that hollered and screamed the loudest in church, were the ones screaming the loudest were the ones that were just stumbling out of the whorehouse a few hours earlier.

2009-07-05 07:03:13 PM

Ghastly

2009-07-05 07:03:20 PM

W. T. Fark: jso2897: letrole: Plastic is a philosophy.

I agree with the rest, but this one's a bit of a stretch.

Never been to L.A.?

farkin_Gary

2009-07-05 07:03:22 PM

This is just such a non issue, really.

/Non-confrontational Christian

golden goat

2009-07-05 07:03:39 PM

The billboard should stay up for as long as the renters paid for the advertising, regardless of the message.

I don't think more people find this billboard offensive than any other religion-related signs; it just seems that christian groups seem more vocal in their opposition to anything non-christian.

Fortunately we don't live in a world anymore where the Church decides what is socially acceptable.

2009-07-05 07:03:58 PM

vertiaset: Atheist rationalization #212: The community of the faithful contains sinners, hypocrites and others who are less than perfect. Therefore, God does not exist.

You seem to have missed when Jubeebee said, "One of the very first things which started turning me away from religion..." Notice, no one suggested the only thing which turned them away from a deity was hypocrisy, no one suggested the only thing which turned them away from religion, even, was hypocrisy.

2009-07-05 07:04:09 PM

Vangor: G2V: That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

I thought I might chime in with this, but atheists are unified by nothing more than a lack of belief in a deity. Many don't want to be represented by atheist organizations, perhaps with differing agendas, and some argue against the label 'atheist' entirely. Probably not the largest factor in choice of label, however.

I consider the idea of God's existence to be such a non-issue for the daily living of life that I have no desire to be part of any organization that chooses to speak for me on that front. Nor do I find a need to associate with other atheists just because they are atheists. I enjoy associating with people immaterial of their religious beliefs, and don't want to make my friends based on that anymore than I want all my friends to be Republicans or Democrats.

That said, I understand people who want to help others understand that their are good people who are atheists, and that they number more on a percentage basis than religious people often assume. It's basically the same fight with homosexuality.

2009-07-05 07:04:19 PM

LordJiro: Drr...drr... (new window)(Warning. Major nightmare fuel)

I thought it was funny how that one short story was scarier than the whole farking manga.

Sgt Otter

2009-07-05 07:04:21 PM

Gregosaurus: Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

*snicker* Gotta remember that one...excellent!

I always liked: Calling Atheism a religion is like calling "not collecting stamps" a hobby.

2009-07-05 07:04:53 PM

libbynomore2: if farkers were the example people used, the world would assume that atheists are among the most mean and cruel human beings on the planet.

Oh cry me a whaaambulance.

/Where's that crybaby seal when we need it?

2009-07-05 07:05:30 PM

2 atheism threads in one day. Delicious.

2009-07-05 07:06:27 PM

Sgt Otter: Jubeebee: phatbeatz: that is a harsh generalization you make that atheists are all amoral heathens. i don't classify myself as atheist, but i know people that do and honestly, they tend to harbor more good intent than a lot of the christians i know.

One of the very first things that started turning me away from religion was when I realized in high school that most people I knew who were the most vocal about their faith were also the ones who engaged in behavior counter to their professed beliefs the most frequently.

Supposedly, that's what inspired Anton LaVey to start the Church of Satan. He was a professional musician in the Bible Belt, and had two regular gigs, as the house band in a whorehouse on Friday and Saturday nights, and playing the piano in church on Sundays.

He said those that those that hollered and screamed the loudest in church, were the ones screaming the loudest were the ones that were just stumbling out of the whorehouse a few hours earlier.

My grandfather was a simple East texas farmer, and a baptist - and he explained this to me when I was about eight. we were in town, and walking by the local holy-roller church, and all kinds of yelling and hollering was coming from inside. He turned to me and said "Johnny, when you hear folks praying real loud like that....go lock the henhouse."

Wenchmaster

2009-07-05 07:06:41 PM

genner: What happens to people who don't have kids?

We have more disposable income.

2009-07-05 07:07:27 PM

W. T. Fark: genner: G2V: genner:
You will never understand the mindset of a moral atheist who cares about the future of humanity regardless of personal reward. So please, just give up trying.

So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

milk000

2009-07-05 07:08:25 PM

gilgigamesh

2009-07-05 07:09:06 PM

W. T. Fark: genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

If we have to explain it to you, then you wouldn't understand anyway. People like you remind me why most people still need a God to believe in, in order to maintain their own morality and therefore civil order.

It is more than a little worrisome to me that so many religious people subscribe to the apparent belief that their motivation to be a good and moral person isn't that it's its own reward, but because they fear eternal punishment if they aren't.

2009-07-05 07:09:10 PM

vertiaset:
Atheist rationalization #212: The community of the faithful contains sinners, hypocrites and others who are less than perfect. Therefore, God does not exist.

Oh my...is this what you actually believe? That non-believers would even consider that a causal relationsuhip, let alone an argument against God? Do straigh-faced remarks like this actually sputter and backfire inside that skull of yours on a regular basis?

You don't anger me; I pity you. You're not even grasping the fundamental laws of basic reasoning before tryng to use it against those who feel differently from you.

Frankly, it's kinda sad, bro.

2009-07-05 07:09:12 PM

genner: What if it didn't feel good?
It doesn't always.

Then I wouldn't. However, helping people has always felt good to me. I enjoy volunteering my time, resources, energy, and skills to charities and organizations. The moment I cease to enjoy this, I either halt with that particular charity or organization or halt altogether.

Yours is not an argument against me wanting better for the world after I am gone, though, since I clearly want better for the world after I am gone currently. I may not enjoy bacon in a few years, but this nor my understanding of taste does not preclude me from enjoying bacon now.

brukmann

2009-07-05 07:09:23 PM

letrole: Cyber_Junk:Err, you did read his Fark name...right?

My surname is Le Trôle.

Your name is no excuse for being a dick.

horonto

2009-07-05 07:09:41 PM

Funny how god lovin' types have some much hate.

2009-07-05 07:09:44 PM

Wenchmaster: genner: What happens to people who don't have kids?

We have more disposable income.

Depends how many pets you have. I'm pretty sure one of our cats has officially cost more than a child this year. :)

2009-07-05 07:10:05 PM

genner: W. T. Fark: genner: G2V: genner:
You will never understand the mindset of a moral atheist who cares about the future of humanity regardless of personal reward. So please, just give up trying.

So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Well, for one thing, you'll suffocate, fool. Plus, you'll get sand up your nose, cigarette butts in your mouth, and used condoms on your ears. No one trusts a man with condoms on his ears.

2009-07-05 07:10:42 PM

Hey, for once it's dying batteres in keyboard causing typos, and not scotch!

/don't get used to it

hechz

2009-07-05 07:11:31 PM

THINK OF THE CHILDREN!@!?!?!

what the children the church castrated in the middle ages for high singing voices? the children relegated to alms houses in the 18ᵗʰ and 19ᵗʰ centuries? the children molested by priests?

brukmann

2009-07-05 07:11:54 PM

jso2897: This is how this plays out:
The local yokels discover that they can't legally have the billboard removed.
They torch it.
The burning debris falls on the businesses they own, and burns them down.
They all hold hands and praise the Lord for his infinite wisdom and mercy.
The Aristocrats!

You forgot the circle jerk before saying 'The Aristocrats!'

Oh...there it is, nm.

They all hold hands and praise the Lord for his infinite wisdom and mercy.

2009-07-05 07:12:14 PM

genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

2009-07-05 07:12:56 PM

LordJiro: Drr...drr... (new window)(Warning. Major nightmare fuel)

/first thing I thought of when reading your comment.

It's nice to see I'm not the only one who thinks of Junji Ito when I read the words "drr drr..." ;)

/That image probably works better in context.
//Anybody seen a film called "Marronnier? (pops to youtube trailer)" Is it any good?

2009-07-05 07:13:14 PM

hechz: THINK OF THE CHILDREN!@!?!?!

what the children the church castrated in the middle ages for high singing voices? the children relegated to alms houses in the 18ᵗʰ and 19ᵗʰ centuries? the children molested by priests?

The children given some of the best education in many American cities by the Catholic Church?

Oh noes!

The world moves on. If you want to dismiss an entire religion because of its actions in the past, be please consistent and dismiss every Western nation for their brutal and inhumane treatment of the peoples they conquered for their land.

2009-07-05 07:13:20 PM

gilgigamesh: W. T. Fark: genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

If we have to explain it to you, then you wouldn't understand anyway. People like you remind me why most people still need a God to believe in, in order to maintain their own morality and therefore civil order.

It is more than a little worrisome to me that so many religious people subscribe to the apparent belief that their motivation to be a good and moral person isn't that it's its own reward, but because they fear eternal punishment if they aren't.

One of my professors was actually like this. Shortly after 9/11, when everyone was kind of in a weird mental state anyway, he privately confided in me that if God did not exist, he wouldn't give a damn and would go around hurting people. I kid you not.

Dragonsbreath

2009-07-05 07:13:52 PM

Anyone remember the name of that country who had freedom of speech and freedom of religion?

2009-07-05 07:14:15 PM

Vangor: genner: What if it didn't feel good?
It doesn't always.

Then I wouldn't.

Then your doing it for the reward.
Same as the theists.

2009-07-05 07:15:25 PM

Uncle Tractor: vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral. After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

What a strange ... and dangerous ... world view.

Christians really shouldn't play the morality card.

Yes, you are a complete tard. Be proud of that

Kyro

2009-07-05 07:15:42 PM

How about I put tubgirl on the next billboard? It'll certainly draw complaints away from the atheist billboard.

bravian

2009-07-05 07:16:07 PM

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have.

-Penn Jillette (new window)

/especially Jell-O

sn0r

2009-07-05 07:16:40 PM

2009-07-05 07:18:12 PM

vertiaset: he best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....

FWIW, since all your quotes come from the exact same place, you may want to read:

Link (new window)

binkyman

2009-07-05 07:18:21 PM

MBK: To play devil's advocate...

If you are going to complain about signs that are pro-religion, then you shouldn't complain about the protesters who dislike "anti-religion" signs. If you do, doesn't it make you hypocritical?

No.

2009-07-05 07:19:13 PM

fumb duck: can I borrow that?

How about a t-shirt?

Link (new window)

pounddawg

2009-07-05 07:19:31 PM

When you look inside yourself and identify why you dismiss my belief completely.....

Then you will understand why I dismiss yours.

2009-07-05 07:19:42 PM

W. T. Fark: privately confided in me that if ~~God did not exist~~ he did not believe that God exists, he wouldn't give a damn and would go around hurting people. I kid you not.

FTFM

G2V

2009-07-05 07:20:07 PM

genner: G2V: genner:
Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

I like people. I don't know if it's upbringing, or chemical processess occurring in my head, but go figure.

Besides, wishing for a nicer world is simply logical. The more niceness to go around, the more likely you are to encounter some yourself.

I mean, is the only reason you care about people because you'll be rewarded for it by God?

That's fine in the short term. The question was about a 100 years in the future. You'll be dead so no niceness will come to you.

As for my motivation no...it's not all about rewards or punishments. I follow God because I actually like the guy.

Well, there you go. It's not all about what affects me. I just like people. Sure, they're people I'll never meet, whose lives will have no affect on my own, and who my life is unlikely to affect either.

The same can be said of the starving in Africa, the impovershed in Asia, and really just about everyone outside of my day to day life. Doesn't mean my empathy just evaporates. Like yours, I imagine the primary cause is because you don't want people to hurt, it runs contrary to the emotions of most people naturally. Even babies like positive emotions and no one has explained the bible or atheism to them yet.

Obviously, one can debate the root cause of that predisposition towards positivity, but that just brings you back to the whole
'chemical processes and evolutionarily beneficial' vs 'divine goodness' debate, where we must necessarily part paths, I assume.

Now admittedly, phrased that way you could say if i believe I'm nice because I evolved to want to be that way for advantage, it's no more 'genuine' an emotion than people being nice because they don't want God to kick their asses.

Which I'll accept. I don't believe the universe cares about good or evil, so I think nice is more or less what you make of it.

brukmann

2009-07-05 07:20:20 PM

vertiaset: in the name of ATHEISM

Convenient that the conclusions you draw from history about motivation and intent match your perception. Care to cite primary sources for this in a speech or something? Or do you think it was a backroom conspiracy?

Mongo cut wood

2009-07-05 07:20:24 PM

Atheist organizations?

B-b-b-b-b-but Atheism isn't organized, therefore it cannot be a religion. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

W. T. Fark [TotalFark] Quote 2009-07-05 07:13:20 PM
gilgigamesh: W. T. Fark: genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

If we have to explain it to you, then you wouldn't understand anyway. People like you remind me why most people still need a God to believe in, in order to maintain their own morality and therefore civil order.

It is more than a little worrisome to me that so many religious people subscribe to the apparent belief that their motivation to be a good and moral person isn't that it's its own reward, but because they fear eternal punishment if they aren't.

One of my professors was actually like this. Shortly after 9/11, when everyone was kind of in a weird mental state anyway, he privately confided in me that if God did not exist, he wouldn't give a damn and would go around hurting people. I kid you not.

Where do you people get your misinformation\propoganda? You Fail horribly. Fear is not the motivation. The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

Open your minds atheists. Try and actually get to know the people you mock/hate.

RosettaStone

2009-07-05 07:21:03 PM

vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

boobsrgood

2009-07-05 07:21:05 PM

This is going to continue to happen more often, in more places, until religion is finally relegated back to its rightful place in America:

personal preferences, nothing more.

2009-07-05 07:21:59 PM

Mongo cut wood:
Where do you people get your misinformation\propoganda? You Fail horribly. Fear is not the motivation. The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

Open your minds atheists. Try and actually get to know the people you mock/hate.

Can you read?

2009-07-05 07:22:56 PM

genner: Then your doing it for the reward.
Same as the theists.

Except your argument was not for reward or lack of reward, nor was mine. To begin, however, this is such a pointless argument to make since if material rewards, such as an eternity of bliss, are equivalent to personal rewards, expanded knowledge or affection, not an action exists which is not done out of motivation for the reward.

You asked, specifically, "If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?" Afterward, you sadi, "Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?" To my knowledge, no one has mentioned rewards, and I am almost certain not within the conversation before I began responding to you.

jekxrb

2009-07-05 07:23:20 PM

Dragonsbreath: Anyone remember the name of that country who had freedom of speech and freedom of religion?

Canada?

CourtroomWolf

2009-07-05 07:23:55 PM

The sign only says "it's ok" to be atheist. Thats what makes the whole protest so damn stupid. I could understand the anger if the billboard was saying "But thou must!" But then again, if their beliefs are so frail that a billboard in favor of free will threatens them, that explains the RAAAAGGGEEEE!!!11!

I'd like to see it changed to an Islam billboard, purely for the lulz.

2009-07-05 07:23:57 PM

Vangor: You asked, specifically, "If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?" Afterward, you sadi, "Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?" To my knowledge, no one has mentioned rewards, and I am almost certain not within the conversation before I began responding to you.

I think the answer of most atheists to that question is "I simply do care. Much like I get hungry or thirsty, or fall in love, or enjoy music, I care about other people. It needs no justification."

Wenchmaster

2009-07-05 07:24:03 PM

FitzShivering: Depends how many pets you have. I'm pretty sure one of our cats has officially cost more than a child this year. :)

Same here. I spent several thousand dollars last month in a losing battle to save one of my furchildren. Have another cat who is diabetic. Special food, insulin, vet visits- all fairly expensive.

/Childless by choice
//Curmudgeon by temperment

bravian

2009-07-05 07:24:12 PM

Mongo cut wood: Where do you people get your misinformation\propoganda? You Fail horribly. Fear is not the motivation. The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

What color of the sky is it in your world?

/former sunday school teacher
//most Christians are filled with an unhealthy amount of fear for a group of people who think they are going to heaven

2009-07-05 07:24:15 PM

It's really disgustingly stupid how religious morons think we are trying to repress them when they have a firm hold on everything in the public.

It's an uphill battle trying to keep religion as a private matter. Outspoken Atheists usually don't preach about Atheism.

For the most part we usually speak out on the obvious constitutional infringements being done such as try to keep religion of any kind out of:
-Government
-Public schools
-Public buildings
-Pretty much anything that tax money pays for

Am I being militant?

Trapper439

2009-07-05 07:25:12 PM

1: Do unto others as you would have done unto you
2: Live and let live

/Agnostic
//Holds these truths to be self-evident
///Would have at least a small modicum of respect for religious farkers if they did me the same farking courtesy

Cheron

2009-07-05 07:26:44 PM

I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

2009-07-05 07:27:08 PM

RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

2009-07-05 07:28:19 PM

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

Tooth Fairy doesn't have a big organization that believes in her to the point of oppressing and slandering others throughout human history.

RosettaStone

2009-07-05 07:28:54 PM

vertiaset: Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Since Mao is dead, I don't think he is killing any Tibetans. Did Stalin kill in the name of atheism or because organized religion threatened his political power?

2009-07-05 07:29:27 PM

blessed are the cheesmakers
hot like melted jarlsberg

2009-07-05 07:29:59 PM

Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

Why are you blessing Wisconsinites again?

2009-07-05 07:30:23 PM

2009-07-05 07:30:43 PM

Mongo cut wood: Where do you people get your misinformation\propoganda? You Fail horribly. Fear is not the motivation. The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

I think the argument is directly posed against the argument I am often given of, "How can you be good without a belief in God?" If such a belief is all which is keeping you from raping, murdering, stealing, and raping, well the motivation to be good seems either a want of eternal bliss or a fear of eternal punishment. I sincerely doubt anyone but such an irrelevant amount of people believe this way, and none of them are probably the ones asking.

2009-07-05 07:30:56 PM

DamnYankees: genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

2009-07-05 07:31:32 PM

G2V:

Now admittedly, phrased that way you could say if i believe I'm nice because I evolved to want to be that way for advantage, it's no more 'genuine' an emotion than people being nice because they don't want God to kick their asses.

Perhaps. Some will claim it's a societal thing. I do a lot of "nice" things that will never have any "benefit" for me as I go out of my way to make sure they can never be traced back to me by anyone. I wouldn't even call that a moral or ethical stand on my part -- it's just something my grandfather impressed on me when I was young, and it always made sense to me. I don't want my own "reward" for having done good to be the reason I do it.

I'm not sure how I could ever claim I benefit from it, other than perhaps from my own "altruisic feeling" that so many bandy about.

To be honest, I don't think that deeply about it. I decide some people or groups deserve or need money or items more than I do, and where I can do so, I give it to them, anonymously. There's no matrix I go through in my head to determine whether it's right for me to do so, I just enjoy helping people out who need it, especially when it's likely I'll just spend it on a television or wine. The only time I think too deeply about it is when I'm dealing with a person or group who I consider to possibly be trying to take advantage of donations for their own financial gain and not for their stated purpose.

boobsrgood

2009-07-05 07:31:57 PM

Mongo cut wood: The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

Jesus was into pedophilia, adultery, and overseas invasions? Sounds like I missed the best part of the bible.

2009-07-05 07:32:08 PM

RosettaStone: vertiaset: Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Since Mao is dead, I don't think he is killing any Tibetans. Did Stalin kill in the name of atheism or because organized religion threatened his political power?

Stop it! You're logic reasoning is disadvantageous to organized religious teachings!

2009-07-05 07:32:38 PM

W. T. Fark: One of my professors was actually like this. Shortly after 9/11, when everyone was kind of in a weird mental state anyway, he privately confided in me that if God did not exist, he wouldn't give a damn and would go around hurting people. I kid you not.

There's a theory that religion and religious feeling developed in the human species for exactly this reason: to curb the sociopaths who would otherwise fark up the system and make them productive members of society.

2009-07-05 07:33:29 PM

genner: Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.

You think you needed to 'learn' love from god? I don't understand what that means. How can you 'learn' to have an emotion?

genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

When the pain outweight the love and you don't see any way or that to change, yes. That's called divorce. Or in the case of kids, 'cutting off'. It's not a very good thing, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes its best for all parties involved.

2009-07-05 07:33:44 PM

Wenchmaster: FitzShivering: Depends how many pets you have. I'm pretty sure one of our cats has officially cost more than a child this year. :)

Same here. I spent several thousand dollars last month in a losing battle to save one of my furchildren. Have another cat who is diabetic. Special food, insulin, vet visits- all fairly expensive.

/Childless by choice
//Curmudgeon by temperment

You raise an interesting point. If God really does exist, why would he allow atheism to spread the way it's doing today? Maybe he's getting tired of the religious folk bothering him all the time. I mean, after all these years, it must be getting pretty f..king old. "Save my sick child!". "Bring prosperity to my business!". "Grant us world peace, and spiritual serenity, oh Lord!".

STFU!!!! Do it yourselves, you lazy clods!!

2009-07-05 07:33:57 PM

jso2897: RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

It's not about changing minds. It's about letting people know they can come out of the closet; that just because the majority of the planet are the equivalent of flat-earthers, you're not alone in noticing the world is spherical.

You really don't know the kind of oppression that goes on, do you? I've been threatened with violence a number of times by Christians over the years, and there is no lack of zealots to run around your town or job to tell very other "believer" what a horrible, horrible, untrustworthy person you are.

/The internet is helping more than anything else....

2009-07-05 07:34:14 PM

Wenchmaster

2009-07-05 07:34:17 PM

Vangor: I think the argument is directly posed against the argument I am often given of, "How can you be good without a belief in God?" If such a belief is all which is keeping you from raping, murdering, stealing, and raping, well the motivation to be good seems either a want of eternal bliss or a fear of eternal punishment. I sincerely doubt anyone but such an irrelevant amount of people believe this way, and none of them are probably the ones asking.

You said "rape" twice.

2009-07-05 07:35:14 PM

genner:

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Are you being serious when you ask that, Genner? I have a hard time believing you aren't trolling, because it's just such a different worldview, but I'll take the time to respond if you are actually being honest in your questions and not just trying to upset people.

medtypist

2009-07-05 07:35:28 PM

And just what, has Big Mama's god done for the kids that are killing themselves now? They allegedly have her god to believe in, yet still kill.

FAILURE OF YOUR GOD, Big Mama.

It's time to break the facade that is religion and get down to the business of being HUMANS.

And I love the lie that they are losing business. I'd like the see that proof, just as I would like to see the proof of their god. But, as we know, christians think repeating something over and over makes it true. God, indeed!

carlysled

2009-07-05 07:35:39 PM

2009-07-05 07:35:51 PM

Trapper439: ///Would have at least a small modicum of respect for religious farkers if they did me the same farking courtesy

Many do. As Christians are apt to judge hysterical atheists based upon the extremely vocal actions of the few (this billboard is not one of those examples), we non-believers sometimes forget that there are kind, tolerant, or otherwise non-douche Christians in this world. It's easier to remember the ones who pissed us off.

Douchebag Christian: Pat Robertson, et al
Douchebag atheist: That clove-smoking asshole in the coffee shop who just. won't. let it go. Bonus dick-ness for a dog-eared copy of No Exit.

Haoie

2009-07-05 07:36:51 PM

Like the London subway, but more yokel.

2009-07-05 07:36:59 PM

DamnYankees: When the pain outweight the love and you don't see any way or that to change, yes. That's called divorce. Or in the case of kids, 'cutting off'. It's not a very good thing, but sometimes it happens, and sometimes its best for all parties involved.

Christians only understand this if their child chose to be gay, or decided get an abortion.

Byn

2009-07-05 07:37:01 PM

FTFA: "...we all believe in a spiritual higher being"

Actually, no. No we ALL don't.

Bucky Katt

2009-07-05 07:37:10 PM

Nemo's Brother: Those intolerant black business owners are at it again.

How DARE they! It's an OUTRAGE!

2009-07-05 07:37:22 PM

vertiaset:
Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Critical thinking, facts and historical perspective ... learn it.

Uh. No. They did not do this in the "name of atheism."

Churches are a competing form of government. When a dictator wants total control, he cannot allow any sort of competition. THIS is why they attacked religion.

Critical thinking, facts, and historical perspective ... learn it.

MooseUpNorth

2009-07-05 07:37:36 PM

safety-math: An atheism one, maybe even more so, because some god-fearing motorist isn't going to see it and suddenly have a revelation...

The billboard isn't aimed at "god-fearing motorists". The key phrase is "You're not alone."

/ On atheist boards, it's pretty common to see the words "I thought I was alone".
// Most atheists are pretty closeted. They shouldn't have to be.

2009-07-05 07:37:48 PM

Stay Cool Babylon: Trapper439: ///Would have at least a small modicum of respect for religious farkers if they did me the same farking courtesy

Many do. As Christians are apt to judge hysterical atheists based upon the extremely vocal actions of the few (this billboard is not one of those examples), we non-believers sometimes forget that there are kind, tolerant, or otherwise non-douche Christians in this world. It's easier to remember the ones who pissed us off.

Douchebag Christian: Pat Robertson, et al
Douchebag atheist: That clove-smoking asshole in the coffee shop who just. won't. let it go. Bonus dick-ness for a dog-eared copy of No Exit.

Pat Robertson isn't actually a horrible guy. He's off-base and often kinda crazy, but he does a lot of good in the world.

Robert Tilton would be a much better example.

Bucky Katt

2009-07-05 07:38:58 PM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

oh, you're back. how, uh, nice.

2009-07-05 07:39:07 PM

vertiaset: Way to go Captain Godwin.

You're welcome.

Atheist Rationalization #122: Hitler was Christian.

Hitler was no Christian, he personally was an atheist, but utilized religion, both Christianity and Paganism, for his political ends. He was a politician leading a nominally Christian nation so he used it for his own ends. The proof? Easy, just use your critical thinking and the historical sources. Look at his PUBLIC PRONOUNCEMENTS and contrast them with his PRIVATE STATEMENTS.

You mean private statements like this one?

"At one point he described his religious status: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

In public, political speeches made while he was still vying for power, he said things like:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

In private and especially after he consolidated his power he said (and wrote):

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....

(snip)

"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State."

Hitler was a great admirer of Martin Luther. Like Martin Luther, Hitler was critical of his own religion. Like Matin Luther, Hitler was outright hostile towards the churches. Like martin Luther, Hitler wanted to found a new religion, one more suitable for the Third Reich. Something like this:

i560.photobucket.com

And like Martin Luther, Hitler hated the Jews. If Hitler hadn't been christian, he would probably not have hated the Jews. The Holocaust? Martin Luther wrote the manual (except for the gas chamber bit).

Even more telling than his words were his actions. In addition to Jews, Hitler also sent to the camps many thousands of Catholic clergy.

Hitler sent people who disobeyed him to the camps. He didn't send catholics there because they were catholics, but because they got in the way. (I notice you didn't say anything about him sending protestant clergy to the camps - why not?)

But for the sake of argument; if Hitler was not XPNs, as you claim, why were the German XPNs so easily duped?

Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

No, not in the name of atheism:

upload.wikimedia.org

Saying that Stalin killed large numbers of people because he didn't believe in gods is just stupid.

Critical thinking, facts and historical perspective ... learn it.

You should follow your own advice.

2009-07-05 07:40:01 PM

FitzShivering: Robert Tilton would be a much better example.

While I don't agree with your assessment of Robertson, I whole-heartedly endorse your alternate pick.

2009-07-05 07:40:02 PM

DamnYankees: genner: Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.

You think you needed to 'learn' love from god? I don't understand what that means. How can you 'learn' to have an emotion?

genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

When the pain outweight the love and you don't see any way or that to change, yes.

I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

Mordant

2009-07-05 07:40:50 PM

Mongo cut wood: The motivation for Christians is to let their light shine, to try and be as good as Jesus was.

My motivation is to be able to fly and lift freight trains over my head.

Sometimes it's hard to have your goals set too high.

2009-07-05 07:40:57 PM

As someone who has to share his parents' basement with three preachers for the next week, I'm not getting a kick out of these replies.

/Goddamned baby-boomers and their inability to maintain an economy. . .

2009-07-05 07:41:02 PM

vertiaset: Stay Cool Babylon

vertiaset:
Atheist rationalization #212: The community of the faithful contains sinners, hypocrites and others who are less than perfect. Therefore, God does not exist.

Oh my...is this what you actually believe? That non-believers would even consider that a causal relationsuhip, let alone an argument against God? Do straigh-faced remarks like this actually sputter and backfire inside that skull of yours on a regular basis?

You don't anger me; I pity you. You're not even grasping the fundamental laws of basic reasoning before tryng to use it against those who feel differently from you.

Frankly, it's kinda sad, bro.

You sound angry. Which I find kind of funny given your denial that you are.

Yes, I do see that rationalization trotted out in every thread on atheism here on Fark. I framed it in terms which, as you noted, showed it for the silliness that it is. They are usually anecdotes of the "I knew this guy in college who claimed to be a Christian and he stole my bike" variety.

Wait. You can actually HEAR him? Over the internet?
Dude - I told you NOT to take the brown acid.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry about the "angry atheists" - they just piss and moan, as opposed to expressing their displeasure by blowing up day care centers, shooting doctors, flying planes into buildings - that sort of thing.
Pussies.

DeaH

2009-07-05 07:41:03 PM

2009-07-05 07:41:03 PM

genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Why is "love" predicated on God? Why do I have to explain why I love my wife and children and think that it's bad to slap them around when I'm feeling like an asshole?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but what you're saying kinda assumes that without God we're supposed to be slaves to immediate stimuli and act without thinking. Well, as a human, I have something called memory that allows me to project past experiences into the future, which means I can remember when my wife was in a better mood and my kids were little angels.

2009-07-05 07:41:22 PM

I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

2009-07-05 07:42:01 PM

genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

What 'reward'?

2009-07-05 07:43:14 PM

Uncle Tractor: vertiaset: Way to go Captain Godwin.

You're welcome. [insert subsequent smack down]

Well, I guess this is deserved:
blog.mrhacks.com

2009-07-05 07:43:28 PM

FitzShivering: vertiaset: he best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....

FWIW, since all your quotes come from the exact same place, you may want to read:

Link (new window)

Just thought I'd highlight this little bit from your link:

But more damaging to Trevor-Roper's reasoning is that the Table-Talks were not private! Hitler knew all along that the scribes were there to give an account of him for future posterity. These were as public as any of Hitler's letters and pre-written speeches. So in what sense could these 'loose' conversations reveal more than letters and speeches? Trevor-Roper nor anyone else gives us a good answer.

Galileo's Daughter

2009-07-05 07:43:33 PM

Anti_illuminati: Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

Why are you blessing Wisconsinites again?

The New and Improved Lord's Prayer
Our Favre,
Who art in Lambeau,
Hallowed be thine arm.
The bowl will come,
It will be won.
In Phoenix as it is in Lambeau.
And give us this Sunday,
Our weekly win.
And give us many touchdown passes.
But do not let others pass against us.
Lead us not into frustration,
But deliver us to Bourbon street.
For thine is the MVP, the best of the NFC,
and the glory of the Cheeseheads,
now and forever.

Go get 'em

/yeah, I know he's retired
//still a great player

2009-07-05 07:44:00 PM

2009-07-05 07:45:14 PM

theorellior: genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Why is "love" predicated on God? Why do I have to explain why I love my wife and children and think that it's bad to slap them around when I'm feeling like an asshole?

To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

2009-07-05 07:45:30 PM

genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

You are narrowly interpreting 'when it feels good' to mean a constant state of elation. Is everything about a vacation the most terrific experience in the world? No, the cost is prohibitive, you're in an unfamiliar place, weather may conflict, travel is nightmarish, and more. Does not mean you don't overall enjoy vacationing tremendously.

In the experience of having a wife and children, if it stops feeling good we're not speaking of having a small fight or similar, but a persistent state where divorce is the most reasonable option for both of you who are devoid of love for one another.

2009-07-05 07:46:17 PM

JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

No I'm not. People were killed in Russia because they were religious, and they were killed because the state believed religion was evil and harmful and should be wiped out. It wasn't incredibly widespread, but it happened.

There's nothing stopping an atheist from hating religious so much he kills people out of his hatred.

2009-07-05 07:46:33 PM

DamnYankees: I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

It's all bullshiat anyway. Good people do good things, bad people do bad things. Bad people who want to think they are good people, use ideology as their excuse for doing bad things. the actual ideology is irrelevant. morality and decency are products of character - they don't come from faith, politics, philosophy or culture.

DeaH

2009-07-05 07:47:06 PM

genner: DamnYankees: genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

I am curious about something you said. Do you you believe that for those who do not believe in God, good = what feels good?

2009-07-05 07:47:18 PM

genner: To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

Well, considering atheists *do* have morality, I don't see what kind of explanation you need. I exist. Done.

2009-07-05 07:48:06 PM

DeaH: Do you you believe that for those who do not believe in God, good = what feels good?

I actually believe this about everyone - religion or not. It's basic Hume-ian philosophy.

2009-07-05 07:48:10 PM

DamnYankees: I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required.

The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

Wow. You truly are an idiot, aren't you? Well, at least when it comes to theology.

Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

2009-07-05 07:48:49 PM

vertiaset: Churches as competing form of government. Absurd. More than absurd, a damn self serving lie.

Churches tell you what to do.

They tell you what not to do.

They tax, they spend. When another form of government isn't present (and sometimes even when it is), they have laws for which they will punish non-compliance.

They tell people when to fight. Churches have had wars throughout history.

If a dictator cannot control the church or have the church work in collusion (remember, the Pope turned a blind eye to Hitler?), the dictator will destroy the church for these reasons only.

...the same reasons they go after any sort of group that poses a threat to their power.

limeyfellow

2009-07-05 07:48:54 PM

eqtworld:
bushbot111: eqtworld

Where is thst?

GISville

The really weird thing about that is Darwin was a Anglican Minister for his whole adult life. Some people really need a good smack.

2009-07-05 07:49:29 PM

bushbot111: Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what.

What Fark are you reading?

2009-07-05 07:49:31 PM

Anti_illuminati: Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

Do you not think that someone, somewhere in Russia was killed because they were religious?

2009-07-05 07:50:30 PM

genner
Morality is a concept that can exist without
religion....

2009-07-05 07:50:40 PM

genner: To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

I have shiat to do, so I can't be bothered to waste time on you. I will say, however, to others that genner is purposely trying to waste your time by getting you to "explain" something that he cannot or will not understand.

2009-07-05 07:51:06 PM

Vangor: genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

You are narrowly interpreting 'when it feels good' to mean a constant state of elation. Is everything about a vacation the most terrific experience in the world? No, the cost is prohibitive, you're in an unfamiliar place, weather may conflict, travel is nightmarish, and more. Does not mean you don't overall enjoy vacationing tremendously.

In the experience of having a wife and children, if it stops feeling good we're not speaking of having a small fight or similar, but a persistent state where divorce is the most reasonable option for both of you who are devoid of love for one another.

The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

2009-07-05 07:51:35 PM

genner: theorellior: genner: Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

Why is "love" predicated on God? Why do I have to explain why I love my wife and children and think that it's bad to slap them around when I'm feeling like an asshole?

To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

Yeah, I don't get that either. At the point that someone makes it clear that he regards me as an amoral being because I am not a member of his or her particular ideological club, I pretty much draw a line through their name, same as I would if their excuse was my race.
I would never dignify such and assertion by bothering to argue it, since anyone who would utter such an assertion immediately adds himself to the list of "people whose opinions I wouldn't wipe my ass with."

Byn

2009-07-05 07:52:45 PM

Thank you, Mr. Mencken (new window)

2009-07-05 07:53:12 PM

JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

I don't particularly agree nor disagree. Stalin and Mao were not motivated by atheism, certainly as this is impossible, but were motivated by a hatred of belief as this stole from the worship of the state. We can bicker about state replacing a deity, but I find that a rather weak argument.

My response is usually that being an atheist does not preclude one from being anything else except a theist. Theism is often merely a cover and empowering tool for the madmen of the world which can directly motivate atrocity, but atheism is not any counter, merely a removal of.

Sergeant Grumbles

2009-07-05 07:53:21 PM

DamnYankees: Anti_illuminati: Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

Do you not think that someone, somewhere in Russia was killed because they were religious?

That's a moot point. Just because someone was killed for being religious does not make their killer religiously (or atheistically) motivated.

The Russian Orthodox Church could have opposed Stalin, and Stalin killed its members not because of their religion, but because they resisted his control.

2009-07-05 07:53:28 PM

genner: To the first question it's because God is always lovable and people are not. Sometimes I can only care about certain people because I care about God.

Well, that's good for society, I suppose.

To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

"Prove" morality? How does one go about doing that? I haven't raped, murdered or stolen anything in a while. I refrained from those things because I feel that they're wrong. Why? Well, the true reason is that I feel this way, always have, and God was never on my shoulder telling me this. But if I have to "prove" something, I'll break it down:

Rape = force and pain inflicted for power and sexual gratification. I have to explain why this is bad?

Murder = taking of a life, which may or may not end it entirely. I have no hard and fast rules on an afterlife. It could be the standing wave in my brain can propagate itself after my body fails. Or maybe not. If not, then we've got one life to live, and taking another's life is a terribly cruel thing to do.

Stealing = the Golden Rule, pure and simple. I don't want people stealing my stuff, so I don't go around stealing theirs. Simple social reciprocity.

2009-07-05 07:53:34 PM

vertiaset: jso2897

You sound angry. Which I find kind of funny given your denial that you are.

Wait. You can actually HEAR him? Over the internet?

When you wrote that did it sound all "edgy" and "witty" in your mind?

Maybe. Maybe not. What do you want to know for?

2009-07-05 07:54:13 PM

vertiaset: Lenny_da_Hog

vertiaset:
Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Uh. No. They did not do this in the "name of atheism."

Churches are a competing form of government. When a dictator wants total control, he cannot allow any sort of competition. THIS is why they attacked religion.

Wow. You atheists will undergo the greatest contortions to lie about the murder of the faithful by atheist regimes. Churches as competing form of government. Absurd. More than absurd, a damn self serving lie.

There's a difference between atheism and anti-theism. If you really want to get technical, Stalin's actions and philosophies were blessed by 2 different Russian Orthodox Priests. It's like calling all Muslims suicide-bombing wifebeaters or all Christians abortion-doctor-murdering cousin-farkers.

I doubt any atheist saner than Pat Robertson would try to defend the Pogroms or the massacres of Mao Zedong. That's the problem with militant Christians: they are so quick to stereotype.

/Atheism is no more a self-serving lie than the Invisible Sky Wizard Pyramid scheme

Bush ate my bush

2009-07-05 07:55:03 PM

Everyone is missing the point. The fact is that God created this great country and it's through Him that all things are possible. We owe it to our Lord and Savior to worship Him and Praise Him every day less we suffer the wrath of his Damnation. He has already shown his displeasure with us: A tanked economy a muslim president, a great governer who is not leading her state any more. I pray for all your souls and Hope (not that fake democrat hope) that you will see the light and except Jesus Christ as your Lord.

2009-07-05 07:55:19 PM

Ahh this big momma woman and her community are only complaining because they are too ashamed to actually admit they have no idea how to take responsibility for themselves. It's so convenient to bury your head in the sand and proclaim 'God will watch over me'. When God keeps you in the same crappy neighborhood with the drugs and slums it's just 'God's way of testing you'. If God grants you the good fortune of being able to escape from poverty 'God is taking care of his believers'. There is no winning with people like this. They won't be happy until everyone else either converts to their religion or is beaten into submission.
While the atheist says: don't like the community you live in? Get an education, a good job and get the fark out of there. It's easier said then done, but if you take responsibility for yourself you can do whatever you want.

2009-07-05 07:55:59 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: That's a moot point. Just because someone was killed for being religious does not make their killer religiously (or atheistically) motivated.

The Russian Orthodox Church could have opposed Stalin, and Stalin killed its members not because of their religion, but because they resisted his control.

This is not relevant. Let me give you a little scenario, and you can tell me if you think this is insane:

Some Russian official buys wholly into Marxism. He is an atheist and believes religious people are superstitution and will cause great evil in the world. He runs across a priest in the street and decides to make a showing to the shtetl (small town) by giving him a mock trial and executing the man. His motivation for doing so is his believe that atheism is required for all rational thinking, and he is doing good by ridding the world of priests and discouraging religion.

You don't think this happened? You don't think this happened to Monks in China? Come on, now.

2009-07-05 07:56:18 PM

DamnYankees: genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

What 'reward'?

A look from your wife. A smile from your child. All those things that Dads get warm fuzzys over. The whole idea that doing good sometimes feels good. That reward.

2009-07-05 07:57:32 PM

DamnYankees: JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

No I'm not. People were killed in Russia because they were religious, and they were killed because the state believed religion was evil and harmful and should be wiped out. It wasn't incredibly widespread, but it happened.

There's nothing stopping a ~~atheist~~ Christian from hating ~~religious~~ anything so much he kills people out of his hatred.

Unless God has a new policy of coming down and physically stopping you?

Really, really poor argument.

2009-07-05 07:58:21 PM

DamnYankees: Anti_illuminati: Stalin's brutality was not atheistically motivated. But keep believing what you're told - it would hamper your arguments otherwise.

Do you not think that someone, somewhere in Russia was killed because they were religious?

Yes, I believe they were. But that persecution was not atheistically motivated. Religion, all religion, was seen as an obstruction to the Communist regime. It had nothing to do with the supernatural albeit spiritual realm many individuals believed in. It was eradication of an opposing force, not of an individuals ideology.

See the mass genocide of Christians from Japan. They were not killed because of conflicting ideological reasons, but because they posed a threat to the power of the current establishment.

2009-07-05 07:59:55 PM

2009-07-05 08:00:25 PM

eqtworld: bushbot111: eqtworld

Where is thst?

GISville

bligbi.com

Here are the people responsible for it. Ray Comfort of the "Banana proof of God" fame w/Kirk Cameron.

The sign is located in Los Angeles on the 105 Freeway.

Link (new window)

2009-07-05 08:00:41 PM

I think most would agree that the majority of non-theists really don't have any problems with the any of the 10 commandments that don't have "God" in them..
don't kill
don't bang your neighbor's wife even (if she is hot)
dont steal
and like and such....

you know, we're not our here farking goats and sacrificing virgins ( or is it the other way around?)...we pay taxes blah blah blah

granolasteak

2009-07-05 08:00:52 PM

I'm so glad I live in Alaska, where we don't allow billboards.

They're so ugly, no matter what they say.

/atheist

2009-07-05 08:00:57 PM

genner: Vangor: genner: I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards.

You are narrowly interpreting 'when it feels good' to mean a constant state of elation. Is everything about a vacation the most terrific experience in the world? No, the cost is prohibitive, you're in an unfamiliar place, weather may conflict, travel is nightmarish, and more. Does not mean you don't overall enjoy vacationing tremendously.

In the experience of having a wife and children, if it stops feeling good we're not speaking of having a small fight or similar, but a persistent state where divorce is the most reasonable option for both of you who are devoid of love for one another.

The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

So are you, just with the added benefit of being able to do it from your Christian pedestal. It's the illusion of superiority, not the real thing, dude.

2009-07-05 08:01:41 PM

genner: A look from your wife. A smile from your child. All those things that Dads get warm fuzzys over. The whole idea that doing good sometimes feels good. That reward.

You are mistaking "reward" for "motivation". They are not the same thing.

First of all, you are discarding the idea of self-sacrifice. Actions such as dying for someone else or leaving your family behind and never seeing them again because they would be in danger if you stayed. Such actions would preclude you from every seeing your family, so those "looks" and "smiles" wouldn't exist. Yet we still do them out of love.

Secondly, your error in confusing "reward" and "motivation". A reward is something you will get in exchange for doing something good, above and beyond what is expected, which would be called compensation. A motivation is simply that which drives us to do something. It can be reward, but not always. For example, why do we eat food? Well, because we experience hunger. Hunger motivates us to eat. But is there any 'reward' for eating? Not in any normal sense of that word. Merely, we have an inner compulsion to do something and we do it. It's part of being human. When we thirst, we drink. When we hunger, we eat. When we tire, we sleep. None of this involves "rewards" of any kind. It is merely the natural way human beings work.

It's the same thing with "morality" or "love". We have a natural compulsion to help people. So when a an atheist abolitionist saw a slave being beaten in the field, they didn't try to free the slaves because they got a "reward" for doing so. They did so because they had an internal motivation which required them to act in a certain way - that's a feeling we call "compassion". Compassion is the fundamental building block of all morality. And its not a reward - its merely an internal evolutionary drive.

2009-07-05 08:02:09 PM

genner: The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

As opposed to you doing it for... what, exactly?

2009-07-05 08:02:21 PM

jso2897:
Yeah, I don't get that either. At the point that someone makes it clear that he regards me as an amoral being because I am not a member of his or her particular ideological club, I pretty much draw a line through their name, same as I would if their excuse was my race.

True story:

I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity about 5 years ago. A bunch of my friends thought about it, and I thought it was a good idea and joined them.

I was a little late the first day. Worked all day, went home.

Came back the next morning, everyone there was happy and talking to me in a friendly manner until they got ready to start the work day with a prayer. I stood in the back reverently as they did their thing, then we passed out the tools and started to work.

About 5 minutes later, a big guy walks up to me kind of nervously and say, "I noticed you weren't praying. What are you doing here?"

I told him I was there to help build a house.

He said, "Oh... Okay..." and wandered off.

A few minutes later, the guy, the group leader, and a couple of buddies came back to "save" me. I then explained that I was quite happy the way I was, but it wasn't good enough. They asked me precisely what I believed.

I told them I believed science was the path to knowledge.

"You're an atheist?"

"Yes," I told them.

They started flinging accusations about me being there to steal the tools and supplies, and that people like me weren't welcome there. They took the tools out of my hand and told me to leave.

We'd all gotten along fine the previous day.

/Not a condemnation of Habitat for Humanity, which I fully support. Only of the handful of zealots who were running the project in Anchorage at the time.

2009-07-05 08:02:29 PM

So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

There is no variation, it's just the Golden Rule. You treat others kindly and they will return the favor. This is something kids in preschool learn through sharing.. no God is needed to teach people to treat others how they would want to be treated. Most atheists are good people because they feel the same urgency that theists do to act responsibly and help their fellow man.

amanogowa

2009-07-05 08:02:30 PM

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

I don't recall the last time the tooth-fairy crowd tried to claim this country was founded based on the tooth fairy, or to pass laws violating my rights in the name of what the tooth fairy wanted.

So, in other words, how does this even compare?

2009-07-05 08:03:12 PM

Anti_illuminati: Yes, I believe they were. But that persecution was not atheistically motivated.

Well, I think you're being disingenuous. There were plenty of people, especially in China, who believed the 'old superstitions' were harmful and needed to be destroyed because atheism was a required step towards a better world. I mean, it just happened. I don't know how to argue it any other way.

vabeard

2009-07-05 08:03:23 PM

There is no intolerance like black intolerance.

/unbelievable.
//not really.

G2V

2009-07-05 08:03:36 PM

genner

The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

I don't believe genuine 100% altruism exists. Does that help? Now, whether the 'do-er' percieves their desire for a reward, or is ignorant of it (doing something nice because evolutionarily, doing nice things is practical from a survival standpoint in a group organism), there's ultimately some personal benefit generally the architect of any deed.

That being said, I don't see any reason for that to negate goodness. You're nice because you love God? Great! I'm nice because I love my girlfriend (not that I'm saying you don't, mind you). Can she be a handful? You bet. Can I be made to feel awful? Darn tootin. Do I feel like it is worth the effort to be good even when things are bad, because I'll be rewarded with something worthwhile overall? Yes. Does this mean I'm in it for the rewards? Sure! So?

I'm eventually going to die, and by my own theorizing, cease to have any existence whatsoever, which will make everything I've done meaningless to me. But in a way I feel that just makes it that much more precious to me, because its value is mine only, not something given to me by another.

James F. Campbell:
I will say, however, to others that genner is purposely trying to waste your time by getting you to "explain" something that he cannot or will not understand.

Well, I've got time to waste! :)

2009-07-05 08:03:37 PM

genner: The truth is whether it's instant elation or simply the belief that things will feel good someday your still doing it for the reward.

Once more, the conversation is not about reward. You asked why anyone would care about the future without an immortal soul and were rebuked. Whomever proposed not needing a reward is uninvolved in this conversation, which is an important detail because "reward" is not a trump card.

I fail to see how you can say, "I'm not saying divorce isn't somtimes necessary but if you only love your wife and kids when it feels good, then your doing it for the rewards," as though implying you don't do this for a reward? You do this for affections, bliss, sense of right, etc., just as the rest of us. And this is the entire point, we're not terribly different, one of us simply doesn't need to fabricate additional rewards.

Helios1182

2009-07-05 08:03:40 PM

genner: DamnYankees: genner: So I should stop trying learn and bury my head in the sand?
I thought atheists yelled at Christians for doing that.

Let me ask you this - why do you do things for your loved ones? Like, if your wife/husband/child wants a gift, why do you give it to them?

Out of love. Which is somthing I learned from God.
Now before you go saying atheists do it for the same reason let me ask you this. What happens when your wifes a biatch and your kids acting like a rotten crotch fruit? Do you stop doing good when it no longer feels good?

What would happen if for some incredible reason you stopped believing in god? Would you stop loving your wife? What if she stopped believing in god? Would she stop loving you? Would you know longer lover her? What if your kids end up atheist, will they not love you?

Leashlaw

2009-07-05 08:03:49 PM

Bush ate my bush

2009-07-05 08:04:20 PM

limeyfellow: The really weird thing about that is Darwin was a Anglican Minister for his whole adult life. Some people really need a good smack.

Darwin's family tradition was nonconformist Unitarianism, while his father and grandfather were freethinkers, and his baptism and boarding school were Church of England.[12] When going to Cambridge to become an Anglican clergyman, he did not doubt the literal truth of the Bible.[17] He learnt John Herschel's science which, like William Paley's natural theology, sought explanations in laws of nature rather than miracles and saw adaptation of species as evidence of design.[19][20] On board the Beagle, Darwin was quite orthodox and would quote the Bible as an authority on morality.[137] He looked for "centres of creation" to explain distribution,[40] and related the antlion found near kangaroos to distinct "periods of Creation". (new window)

2009-07-05 08:04:30 PM

letrole My surname is Le Trôle.
brukmann Your name is no excuse for being a dick.

I'm not being a dick. I'm really not saying much at all.

Atheism is a Religion. So what?

Go ahead sir, and continue to prove my point for me.

2009-07-05 08:05:11 PM

Bush ate my bush: Everyone is missing the point. The fact is that God created this great country and it's through Him that all things are possible. We owe it to our Lord and Savior to worship Him and Praise Him every day less we suffer the wrath of his Damnation. He has already shown his displeasure with us: A tanked economy a muslim president, a great governer who is not leading her state any more. I pray for all your souls and Hope (not that fake democrat hope) that you will see the light and except Jesus Christ as your Lord.

Uh, you can thank that marriage-wrecking Slick Willie Clinton for the tanked economy. If you really want to get technical, you can thank the 93rd Good-Christian-Republican Congress and their veto-overriding majority for the tanked economy, courtesy of the deregulation of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act of 1993 leading to the Mortgage-Backed Securities bubble and subsequent economic collapse.

I find it rather funny that you blame Atheists and Muslims for the problems a Catholic, an Episcopalian, a Texas Politician invented and a Baptist signed into law.

/I inform when trolling, you wiccan-burning baby-towelhead-killer!

MooseUpNorth

2009-07-05 08:05:17 PM

vertiaset: Where does your sense of morality come from anyway?

From me.

Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

You tell me.

2009-07-05 08:05:58 PM

The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

2009-07-05 08:07:20 PM

letrole: letrole My surname is Le Trôle.
brukmann Your name is no excuse for being a dick.

I'm not being a dick. I'm really not saying much at all.

Atheism is a Religion. So what?

Go ahead sir, and continue to prove my point for me.

Forgot to quote the first time, but... you're still wrong.

fish500

2009-07-05 08:07:29 PM

2009-07-05 08:07:55 PM

pounddawg

2009-07-05 08:08:18 PM

MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

Darn.

2009-07-05 08:08:24 PM

2009-07-05 08:08:37 PM

We owe it to our Lord and Savior to worship Him and Praise Him every day less we suffer the wrath of his Damnation. He has already shown his displeasure with us: A tanked economy a muslim president, a great governer who is not leading her state any more.

Ugh.. I think I'll pass showing favor to someone just because I'm afraid they will punch me in the face if i don't. Fear is not believing, it is being afraid of the punishment. Your Jesus is no more then a school yard bully pushing kids over for making fun of him.

2009-07-05 08:08:37 PM

2009-07-05 08:08:59 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: jso2897:
Yeah, I don't get that either. At the point that someone makes it clear that he regards me as an amoral being because I am not a member of his or her particular ideological club, I pretty much draw a line through their name, same as I would if their excuse was my race.

True story:

I volunteered for Habitat for Humanity about 5 years ago. A bunch of my friends thought about it, and I thought it was a good idea and joined them.

I was a little late the first day. Worked all day, went home.

Came back the next morning, everyone there was happy and talking to me in a friendly manner until they got ready to start the work day with a prayer. I stood in the back reverently as they did their thing, then we passed out the tools and started to work.

About 5 minutes later, a big guy walks up to me kind of nervously and say, "I noticed you weren't praying. What are you doing here?"

I told him I was there to help build a house.

He said, "Oh... Okay..." and wandered off.

A few minutes later, the guy, the group leader, and a couple of buddies came back to "save" me. I then explained that I was quite happy the way I was, but it wasn't good enough. They asked me precisely what I believed.

I told them I believed science was the path to knowledge.

"You're an atheist?"

"Yes," I told them.

They started flinging accusations about me being there to steal the tools and supplies, and that people like me weren't welcome there. They took the tools out of my hand and told me to leave.

We'd all gotten along fine the previous day.

/Not a condemnation of Habitat for Humanity, which I fully support. Only of the handful of zealots who were running the project in Anchorage at the time.

Wow!

In 1989, I was a soldier, a newlywed, and a new father. I needed a car real bad, stationed up at Ft. Lewis, WA. The only people that would finance my loan was Alaska Federal Credit Union, only if I was Catholic. I was, and still am atheist, and needed a car. So I, and my wife (she was a protestant) had to feign catholicism to get a car loan.

rebussohal

2009-07-05 08:09:16 PM

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at Greek mythology.

Hail Eris!

2009-07-05 08:09:24 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: Humans are social animals. We have empathy wired into our brains at one level or another. We are capable of doing things together.

We understand from experience that life is better, more enjoyable with friends, and that friendship takes trust and treating people right.

You need a religion to tell you this?

My personal pet theory on this is that evolutionarily speaking, we developed to have compassion for our children, because children who had parents which cared about them were more likely to survive. Morality is simply the process of humans recognizing the kernel of their children in all humans and some animals, and we are simply constantly expanding the amount of people we feel compassion for.

2009-07-05 08:09:50 PM

amanogowa

2009-07-05 08:10:25 PM

2009-07-05 08:10:26 PM

Helios1182: What would happen if for some incredible reason you stopped believing in god? Would you stop loving your wife? What if she stopped believing in god? Would she stop loving you? Would you know longer lover her? What if your kids end up atheist, will they not love you?

Not in direct response to your comment, but the feeling I'm getting from this discussion is that, to some people, God is to love as the "luminous ether" is to light. In other words, light (or love) can't just exist by itself, it has to be part of some medium.

2009-07-05 08:12:49 PM

Lenny_da_Hog and JQPublic

Stories like that make me pissed off. Man, I wish people like that would just use their brains for a moment. How would those Christians like it if atheists were the majority, and we told them to go fark themselves?

2009-07-05 08:12:57 PM

yay! atheism thread:

i228.photobucket.com

G2V

2009-07-05 08:13:05 PM

genner:
Seeking the good of others sometimes feels good. Most atheists have a moral system more or less based on the golden rule but it's dependent on warm fuzzy feelings for motivation.

I admit at this point I think you're essentially just a troll purely based upon your phrasing, but I digress. Warm fuzzy feelings vs God, what's the big difference?

2009-07-05 08:13:16 PM

DamnYankees: Anti_illuminati: Yes, I believe they were. But that persecution was not atheistically motivated.

Well, I think you're being disingenuous. There were plenty of people, especially in China, who believed the 'old superstitions' were harmful and needed to be destroyed because atheism was a required step towards a better world. I mean, it just happened. I don't know how to argue it any other way.

It's because you don't know what you're talking about. That's why.

There is no difference in Stalin killing people of religious faith to ascertain complete power. Than it is for a country's successor to assassinate all those in line to ascertain complete power. You use the religion aspect of the story as a convenience to atheist-bashing agenda. Stalin would've killed anyone (get this, it's very important - ANYONE) to hold complete power. Religion was not his main motive.

2009-07-05 08:13:31 PM

amanogowa: jso2897: RosettaStone: vertiaset: Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

The atheists that I know are atheists in no small part because religion contradicted their own moral sense. The point of the sign was to let people like you know that religion is not required for a moral sense.

As far as that goes, I don't see the point of this billboard(or the pro-religious ones either). Nobody is going to adopt a philosophy because they see it on a billboard. It's dumb - but the people objecting to it are even dumber. People have the right to waste their money on superfluous public speech, if they really have nothing better to do.

The point of this billboard is to help atheists find other atheists and socialize, and perhaps have a fun time. They may even organize to repel religious laws and promote the US constitution.

I'm starting to think a better billboard would have just said, "Are you an atheist? Then get the hell out of Florida and meet us up north, genius. These fat lards will crucify you if they find out."

2009-07-05 08:13:38 PM

If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

2009-07-05 08:15:13 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Much better. You had me worried about the creativity meter for awhile!

/figured you were prob'ly hung over from partying on the 4th....

2009-07-05 08:15:31 PM

MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

2009-07-05 08:15:44 PM

vertiaset: Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Genetic components, how I was raised, and certain motivations and considerations often stated simply as the Golden Rule.

Good and Evil are terms, and not absolutes. Actions which I am aversive towards I would often describe as evil, and those are actions which deliberately harm others. Others which deliberately help others are good and fill me with a warm, fuzzy feeling. I previously explained even with a deity concepts such as Good and Evil are not absolutes either.

Vary from person to person. We have genetic components to this, which can alter, and I disbelieve societies can exist without reinforcing ideals of good and evil; this includes enforcing laws and raising children certain ways.

To restate, a deity cannot make Good and Evil absolutes, merely removed from our personal subjectivity. A deity who determines good and evil is capable of changing those supposed absolutes. If a deity is incapable of changing those, we should revere instead whatever defines them.

2009-07-05 08:16:22 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

I knew there was a reason Christians never killed people!

.5/10

amanogowa

2009-07-05 08:16:30 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

How does it feel to be so incredibly wrong?

pounddawg

2009-07-05 08:16:54 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

(snicker)

2009-07-05 08:17:17 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

You surname is Le Trôle.

2009-07-05 08:17:31 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

I don't know. I'd feel much more comfortable if I knew they were going to go to an afterlife.

G2V

2009-07-05 08:18:02 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Indeed, because I believe morality is a purely human defined construction, and not some great pre-defined latticework upon the universe.

Thus it actually provides evidence that an atheist can be good by their own strength of character, since they don't run around killing people willy-nilly.

And yes, yes, I realize you're letrole and that as a troll your posts probably have nothing to do with your actual beliefs, I just felt like responding to that one because it seemed to serve my purpose.

2009-07-05 08:18:26 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

And yet atheists are underepresented in our prisons, which are overwhelminly Christian.

/plank...eye...splinter...

2009-07-05 08:18:34 PM

Excen: MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

Yeah, I'm not going to read all that right now. Are you sure you understand what I was referring to when I said that?

2009-07-05 08:19:20 PM

Drew must be hurting for pageviews today. Makes sense: Everyone else is out there living their lives.

2009-07-05 08:19:23 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Le Feesheeng eez good, no?

/Trollin' trollin' trollin' keep them eyes a rollin'
//Trollin' Trollin' trollin' /b/side!

2009-07-05 08:19:39 PM

2009-07-05 08:20:21 PM

vertiaset: James F. Campbell

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Humanism is one source.

Yes, and a fine one at that. I wonder though, how many of the fuzzy headed "sky wizard" atheists on Fark have ever even heard of "Humanism". Thanks for providing the link. You may have actually set some otherwise amoral non believers on a more ethical arc.

My favorite atheist. A man who was not an ideologue. Not a hater. A man who knew both religion and science. A man who realized one could be a skeptic and a believer. A true seeker after the "Truth" ... yes with a capital "T".

I've kept quiet about it this thread because in the last several religion threads I've been pretty vocal about Humanism in my own life and I don't want to become an evangelist.

rustylite

2009-07-05 08:20:53 PM

What a Beautiful sign.

2009-07-05 08:20:54 PM

If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

2009-07-05 08:21:47 PM

MorganFreeman: Excen: MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

Yeah, I'm not going to read all that right now. Are you sure you understand what I was referring to when I said that?

I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

2009-07-05 08:24:22 PM

2009-07-05 08:24:30 PM

2009-07-05 08:24:39 PM

G2V: And yes, yes, I realize you're letrole and that as a troll your posts probably have nothing to do with your actual beliefs, I just felt like responding to that one because it seemed to serve my purpose.

His surname is Le Trôle.

2009-07-05 08:25:10 PM

reklamfox: If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

Theists can telepathically apologize for anything they do. Atheists recognize the permanence and fragility inherent to continued and continuing existence. If anything, atheists would be better at leading nations with nuclear weapons, any nations with armies really, than theists.

2009-07-05 08:25:27 PM

"How would you feel if you had brought some children into the world knowing that they were going to be tormented eternally in a place you built for them? Could you live with yourself? Wouldn't it have been better not to have brought them into the world in the first place?" - Dan Barker, godless

Ender's

2009-07-05 08:25:38 PM

As an Orthodox Athiest Protestant, I am getting a kick out of these replies...

2009-07-05 08:26:32 PM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

One such case would be "all too often", but zero would be acceptable. Care to provide the trivial proof of existence?

vertiaset: After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

Nah, good and evil crop up anyway, because measure only decides what we think the laws of physics are. The universe's opinion of what they are is rather more important, and any difference between measure and measured is Our Problem.

Khanmots: And yes, I believe that it requires faith to believe in the existance of God... or to actively deny the existence of God.

The latter, however, does not require any more faith than denying that there is a cauliflower occupying your cranial cavity in place of a brain.

genner: Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

Because I am not foolhardy enough to keep my entire identity in one fleshbag; while I'll be somewhat dead, I may not even be mostly dead.

genner: Does your whole system of empathy revolve around your ability to reproduce? What happens to people who don't have kids?

Having kids is one way to help make sure your identity is not all locked up in one fleshbag, but there are other alternatives.

Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

Look up Aristaeus, honey. =)

2009-07-05 08:27:23 PM

vertiaset, what personality type are you? (see above chart) does it match your chosen religion/spiritual path?

Just curious. This is an honest and sincere question.

2009-07-05 08:27:53 PM

reklamfox: If atheists can't possibly be moral people because they have no God to tell them what to do, then how do theists know what to do in every situation? The bible can only lend so much guidance, how do theists know what is right in the really specific instances of choice? Do you just go on instinct and assume whatever you choose God will back you up?

This is an honest and sincere question.. I really want to know from the theists how your decision's differ from the same decision made by an atheist?

It really doesn't.

They just have the convenience of placing blame on God, Satan, or non-believers.

Remember, they are champion finger pointers.

2009-07-05 08:28:05 PM

Excen: MorganFreeman: Excen: MorganFreeman: The burden of proof is on you, but I'll save you some time: you're wrong.

A wired article that's too long and polysyllabic for you to understand.

Time to drop some science on your knuckle-dragging ass. (Both Click-Pop)

/With the right voltage and location, anyone can talk to invisible spirits in the room

Yeah, I'm not going to read all that right now. Are you sure you understand what I was referring to when I said that?

I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

2009-07-05 08:28:09 PM

Stay Cool Babylon: It's easier to remember the ones who pissed us off.

That's called confirmation bias.

And I think it would be a lot less if those sensible Christians shouted down their asshat coreligionists more often.

Apparently "love your neighbor" means "love your neighbor even if he's a dick and is bothering other people, and if those other people have a problem with him then they're just angry and should be dismissed."

JasonOfOrillia

2009-07-05 08:28:17 PM

My local Baptist congregation is having a sermon on my street right now and my lights are off and door is locked so I am getting a kick out of these replies.

/now they are singing a hymn. Certainly more vigorous than the Papists or the Anglicans.
//Now they are proclaiming the good news again.

2009-07-05 08:29:18 PM

vertiaset:
What are these "genetic components". Can you find them on a map of the genome?

You can see their results in the human brain, with PET scans.

Why are dogs friendly? Why do they have emotions? How is they can learn how not to steal food? How do they know to attack enemies to protect friends?

Is there a DogGod instilling them with morality through Dogma?

2009-07-05 08:29:43 PM

MorganFreeman:
I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

Your dog isn't talking to you, is it?

/Yes, I'm well aware that Gacy made up the talking-dog stuff. . .

2009-07-05 08:29:50 PM

JQPublic: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

And yet atheists are underepresented in our prisons, which are overwhelminly Christian.

/plank...eye...splinter...

img2.pict.com

2009-07-05 08:30:32 PM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

You don't know many atheists. In my mind they're very moral people. Their morality just disagrees with yours.

jojostan

2009-07-05 08:31:01 PM

Seth'n'Spectrum: /more or less mandatory

couldn't of said it better. ALL organized religions are a crock and a scam.
That said, i don't mind advertising from either side. Whofakincares? what they put on them? The only billboards I look at have hot babes in bikinis!

2009-07-05 08:31:02 PM

vertiaset: So you are a moral relativist. So, if you were ... say ... an Aztec and you believed, truly believed, that if you did not rip the living heart out of men and women on a daily basis that the sun would not rise tomorrow, are your actions in doing so "good"?

Well, if I were an Aztec, I guess I would fervently believe it was good, but the funny thing is, I'm not an Aztec, and I firmly believe that such an action would be detrimental to the person receiving this "sacriment", and therefore, immoral.

Seriously, asking this question is like saying, "If Jesus had never been born, would you still be Christian?"

2009-07-05 08:31:27 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: vertiaset:
What are these "genetic components". Can you find them on a map of the genome?

You can see their results in the human brain, with PET scans.

Why are dogs friendly? Why do they have emotions? How is they can learn how not to steal food? How do they know to attack enemies to protect friends?

Is there a DogGod instilling them with morality through Dogma?

DOG-MA! +1

2009-07-05 08:31:29 PM

JasonOfOrillia: Now they are proclaiming the good news again.

Sarah Palin has quit politics and will live under a rock for the rest of her life?!?

That is good news!

2009-07-05 08:31:35 PM

If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

There is no right and wrong, there are only results. If by killing and stealing you are able to succeed, then you win. The law of the tooth and claw. Survival of the fittest.

2009-07-05 08:31:58 PM

Excen: MorganFreeman:
I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

Your dog isn't talking to you, is it?

/Yes, I'm well aware that Gacy made up the talking-dog stuff. . .

Gacy? Wasn't that Son of Sam?

2009-07-05 08:32:55 PM

vertiaset: What are these "genetic components". Can you find them on a map of the genome?

Can we find "maternal instinct" on a map of the genome, yet? Does this mean it doesn't exist?

LavenderWolf

2009-07-05 08:33:23 PM

Sorry but fark you. I don't care if it is advertising something you don't like. It doesn't infringe on your rights.

2009-07-05 08:33:46 PM

Excen: MorganFreeman:
I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

Your dog isn't talking to you, is it?

/Yes, I'm well aware that ~~Gacy~~ Berkowitz made up the talking-dog stuff. . .

Fixed.

2009-07-05 08:33:46 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

There is no right and wrong, there are only results. If by killing and stealing you are able to succeed, then you win. The law of the tooth and claw. Survival of the fittest.

Your surname is Le Trôle.

2009-07-05 08:33:48 PM

JasonOfOrillia: My local Baptist congregation is having a sermon on my street right now and my lights are off and door is locked so I am getting a kick out of these replies.

/now they are singing a hymn. Certainly more vigorous than the Papists or the Anglicans.
//Now they are proclaiming the good news again.

Dude! You have an obligation to hang your stereo out your windows blasting metal if there is a church disrupting the peace and quiet of your home!!! I suggest blasting Slayer or In Flames or Killswitch Engage as loud as your stereo will go, but anything harder than Black Sabbath will do!

DO IT!!! DO IT NOW!!! DON'T BE A PUSSY, SHOW THOSE BIBLE THUMPERS WHO CAN MAKE MORE NOISE!!!

2009-07-05 08:33:51 PM

letrole: If you're an ~~Atheist~~ completely amoral person, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

There is no right and wrong, there are only results. If by killing and stealing you are able to succeed, then you win. The law of the tooth and claw. Survival of the fittest.

...and you're all set! Welcome to reality, trollzilla!

2009-07-05 08:33:58 PM

There is no right and wrong, there are only results. If by killing and stealing you are able to succeed, then you win. The law of the tooth and claw. Survival of the fittest.

That's not atheism that's anarchy. "No rules" does not sum up atheism, it sums up what you like to think atheism is.

Quantum Apostrophe

2009-07-05 08:34:43 PM

Boy am I glad I don't live in the US where adults are basically 200+ lbs children!

LavenderWolf

2009-07-05 08:35:02 PM

2009-07-05 08:35:20 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

If you are an insurance salesman, there is no difference between listening to the radio and spitting on a snake.
If you are a lion tamer, there is no difference between folding a paper airplane and ordering out for pizza.
If you are an artichoke farmer, there is no difference between having your tonsils out and painting a Volkswagen.

Discuss.

rustylite

2009-07-05 08:35:30 PM

CruiserTwelve: W. T. Fark: First sensible thing I've ever heard you say.

So a post is only sensible if you agree with it. I see how that works now.

aaaaaaaaaand back to being an idiot again

2009-07-05 08:36:05 PM

Gacy, Ramirez, Berkowitz, whoever. All three of them would wear my scrotum as a yarmulke.

/Although it'd be closer in size to a hijab. . .

2009-07-05 08:37:18 PM

Excen: Gacy, Ramirez, Berkowitz, whoever. All three of them would wear my scrotum as a yarmulke.

/Although it'd be closer in size to a hijab. . .

...I wonder if Ed Gein was a Christian...

2009-07-05 08:37:18 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Boy am I glad I don't live in the US where adults are basically 200+ lbs children!

I'd totally rip on you Queeb, well, if I didn't enjoy your women so much.

/heading to Montreal in a couple weeks
//thank god

onebadgungan

2009-07-05 08:37:33 PM

Corvus: So my city having a giant cross on public land is ok but people privately having a billboard like this is not?

I immediately thought of San Diego, where I live.
(checks profile)

Yep. Cool deal. Fark party, y'all?

Sarcastica75

2009-07-05 08:37:41 PM

MorganFreeman: Excen: MorganFreeman:
I believe you were referring to every mistaken belief that telepathic communication with an invisible omnipotent sky wizard is possible throughout the entire span of human history, but I could be wrong.

/It's a friggin' pop-culture reference, isn't it

Nooooo. Believe me, I view people who "talk to God" as schizophrenics and psychopaths. Honest mistake, I left a quote of someone else out of that post.

Now kids, see how MorganFreeman reacted rationally without depending on the guidance of a deity? Discuss.

Your dog isn't talking to you, is it?

/Yes, I'm well aware that Gacy made up the talking-dog stuff. . .

Gacy? Wasn't that Son of Sam?

Yep, Son of Sam was the one who "talked to his neighbor's possessed dog"--David Berkowitz. Gacy was the killer clown who raped and killed more than thirty boys.

/yes, I read way too much about serial killers, why do you ask?

2009-07-05 08:38:44 PM

2009-07-05 08:38:48 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Boy am I glad I don't live in the US where adults are basically 2300+ lbs children!

FTFY. Never underestimate the power of the Sunday potluck.

/You know that stereotypical picture of the fat American? Add 50-100 pounds if they are Christian.

Mayah

2009-07-05 08:39:04 PM

And fark tells us: Pretty much any religious sign whatsoever will be protested against.

And subby, I'm not sure that this would be militant atheism per se. It's pretty mild. If you are a good person you can become an atheist and still act good? That's nice and all, but aren't the going against their best selling point?

2009-07-05 08:40:16 PM

Gawdzila: Are you only nice to people because you think you'll be rewarded for it later? Because if so, you aren't a very good person.

Sounds very Republican.

2009-07-05 08:40:46 PM

Sarcastica75: MorganFreeman: Excen:

/Yes, I'm well aware that Gacy made up the talking-dog stuff. . .

Gacy? Wasn't that Son of Sam?

Yep, Son of Sam was the one who "talked to his neighbor's possessed dog"--David Berkowitz. Gacy was the killer clown who raped and killed more than thirty boys.

/yes, I read way too much about serial killers, why do you ask?

You can wear my scroat as a hat anytime!

/Fancy a spot of tea, guv'nah?

ozzie_stu

2009-07-05 08:42:15 PM

omg - it's bad for business ??

that's their bottom line ??

i guess $$ is the new religion

2009-07-05 08:43:06 PM

Mayah: And fark tells us: Pretty much any religious sign whatsoever will be protested against.

And subby, I'm not sure that this would be militant atheism per se. It's pretty mild. If you are a good person you can become an atheist and still act good? That's nice and all, but aren't the going against their best selling point?

Atheists don't recruit, they gather. That's the whole point of the billboard. It's for people who already believe what they do. Furthermore, I'm not sure it makes sense to become an atheist. Was religion installed in me at birth? I mean, they tried, but it's not like I believe anything different than what I did in the first place. I accept that there are questions I don't have the answers to and things I don't understand.

southern78

2009-07-05 08:43:47 PM

big mama needs to stop over eating and start exercising....her fatness is going to cost me tax dollars. Oh snap I went there...burn the fatties!

2009-07-05 08:44:02 PM

reklamfox: That's not atheism that's anarchy. "No rules" does not sum up atheism, it sums up what you like to think atheism is.

Not true. The Eskimos, when we still called them Eskimos, had some very harsh practises. It was only in the last century that the following began to be discouraged, mainly by Christian missionaries.

If I want something that you have, and I take it by force in public, it is not theft.

If I do not like you, and I bash your brains in public, it is not murder.

If you are old or infirm and you become a burden, you are left to die on the ice.

If her firstborn is a girl, the mother must smother the infant.

DaShredda

2009-07-05 08:44:37 PM

There are more flaws with the concept of religion than there are in a Pauly shore movie.

Ailurophile

2009-07-05 08:44:55 PM

safety-math: I think religious billboards are silly in general. An atheism one, maybe even more so, because some god-fearing motorist isn't going to see it and suddenly have a revelation..."Wait! You don't have to believe in God to be a good person?!" Realizing that, when one has been brought up Christian, takes a lot more effort. In most cases, anyways.

Well, it's not really about converting people. Otherwise it would say something more like "Big Mama" Reed thinks it does, and whether it was intentional or not, it's probably also a thought seed for some. People who aren't necessarily against the idea of other people not believing the way they do might think about it if the basic premise is stated for them.

/People need to know there are other people like them around, some even like to know them in person

2009-07-05 08:45:13 PM

letrole: There is no right and wrong, there are only results. If by killing and stealing you are able to succeed, then you win. The law of the tooth and claw. Survival of the fittest.

People with an incomplete knowledge of evolution think this, but they're wrong.

Fitness has more to do with ability to survive than ability to hurt others. Humans don't have claws or big teeth. They're not particularly strong or particularly fast. The secret to our success is our ability to cooperate to achieve a goal.

Stealing and murder sow mistrust within the group, and as such make us less likely to cooperate and therefore less fit, in an evolutionary sense.

Since you're not an atheist, I can see why you're confused. I hope you've learned something.

cynicalbastard

2009-07-05 08:47:47 PM

The only really good reason for a billboard sign like this I can see is that there are lots of young people who don't "get" the whole organised religion thing and have trouble believing in the traditional Judeo-Christian concept of a supreme being. And a lot of those will have been brought up to believe that if they are non believers, they're bad people, they will be punished for it, they aren't "opening themselves up to God" and other silliness, and probably these kids are agonizing with this on a regular basis. Being told "Hey, look, you're not a bad person, and you're not doing anything wrong by not believing what noone else can prove either" is not a bad message to get out to those folks.

2009-07-05 08:48:57 PM

Hindmost: What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

Because the tooth fairy does not have a gaggle of followers trying to sway the laws that govern all of us.

2009-07-05 08:49:31 PM

DaShredda: There are more flaws with the concept of religion than there are in a Pauly shore movie.

QUOTED FOR TRUTH AND GREAT JUSTICE

/Although Biodome was pure flawless victory. . .

2009-07-05 08:50:07 PM

letrole: reklamfox: That's not atheism that's anarchy. "No rules" does not sum up atheism, it sums up what you like to think atheism is.

Not true. The Eskimos, when we still called them Eskimos, had some very harsh practises. It was only in the last century that the following began to be discouraged, mainly by Christian missionaries.

If I want something that you have, and I take it by force in public, it is not theft.

If I do not like you, and I bash your brains in public, it is not murder.

If you are old or infirm and you become a burden, you are left to die on the ice.

If her firstborn is a girl, the mother must smother the infant.

The Inuit had plenty of religion before the Christians came. they worshiped gods. But they were mean gods. Kind of like the one that told medieval Christians to burn innocent women at the stake for witchcraft. It occurs to me that maybe nice people worship nice gods, and mean people worship mean gods. almost as is the problem sprang from human nature, rather than particular beliefs.
Naa - that's just too far-fetched :D

tinfoil-hat maggie

2009-07-05 08:50:09 PM

2009-07-05 08:50:49 PM

ReverendJasen: Hindmost: What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

Because the tooth fairy does not have a gaggle of followers trying to sway the laws that govern all of us.

There is fluoride in a majority of water systems in the US.

/Just sayin'

2009-07-05 08:51:06 PM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

Then you're another idiot.
"God" does not equal morality--and it never has. But that's a fine excuse to persecute those who don't share your beliefs.

2009-07-05 08:51:32 PM

khonshu: yay! atheism thread:

I remember back from school that I was a ENT J/P ... this fits me bout right, haha.

boomshakra

2009-07-05 08:51:33 PM

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. In the end, Religion will kill us all. ~Ed Krebs

I respect that many members of my family are Christians - I choose to think for myself, but that quote above pretty much sums up where we're headed...

2009-07-05 08:51:39 PM

Excen: There is fluoride in a majority of water systems in the US.

Precious bodily fluids, etc.

2009-07-05 08:52:16 PM

That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different. What if they had been reached by another society first? You site that as proof that God created morals and without him there can be no morals, yet the things you cite such as: If I do not like you, and I bash your brains in public, it is not murder these are all things that can be associated with the Islamic faith in the middle east where it is totally moral to kill a woman for not wearing a head scarf.

That came from faith, is it immoral? Or is it immoral just because it didn't come from YOUR faith? I'm an atheist who spends the weekend volunteering at the local food bank and I have never murdered anyone.

2009-07-05 08:52:36 PM

vertiaset: What are these "genetic components". Can you find them on a map of the genome?

Unfortunately, I no longer have university access to scientific journals, or I would be more capable of providing links to specific articles on the subject. Beyond this, the most referenced article I know of is "The Evolutionary Origin of an Altruistic Gene" by Nedelcu and Michod in the May 23, 2006 issue of Molecular Biology and Evolution (currently trying to find a link to the abstract, the Oxford Journal site has the reference to this still in tact, but I cannot find the abstract in the archives).

vertiaset: So you are a moral relativist. So, if you were ... say ... an Aztec and you believed, truly believed, that if you did not rip the living heart out of men and women on a daily basis that the sun would not rise tomorrow, are your actions in doing so "good"?

Not a moral relativist, truly. I see morals as simply not being universal, but we have useful methods of measuring the effectiveness of morality such as socioeconomics of a society. I would say, simply, the best morality is one which minimizes harm to others, and we can argue harm from then on.

However, you're effectively asking me that if I were a different person in a different situation would I act differently? I don't see the point of the question since I currently disprove of such sacrifice and the idea people could practice and praise such an action is abhorrent to me.

vertiaset: Is this correct understanding of your viewpoint?

No. I stated an often overlooked fact. If the deity determines what is good and evil, this does not make good and evil absolutes. The concepts are still arbitrary and dependent upon the will of the deity. If one wishes to argue the deity cannot alter concepts such as good and evil, obviously something greater set those concepts firmly, but the same rules apply to this "something".

This is why moral absolutes fail for an argument.

2009-07-05 08:53:01 PM

reklamfox: I have never murdered anyone.

YET.

2009-07-05 08:53:11 PM

The Z Spot: khonshu: yay! atheism thread:

I remember back from school that I was a ENT J/P ... this fits me bout right, haha.

On that note, I wonder what would happen if there were a giant Myers-Briggs test for all the users on Fark. I wonder what the average personality is...

2009-07-05 08:53:39 PM

ReverendJasen: vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

Then you're another idiot.
"God" does not equal morality--and it never has. But that's a fine excuse to persecute those who don't share your beliefs.

Exactly. And where exactly did you conduct this study, vertiaset? Liberty?

2009-07-05 08:54:11 PM

vertiaset: Now contrast this with Stalin and Mao who, as ATHEISTS in the name of ATHEISM killed thousands of Russian Orthodox Clergy, and more recently Tibetan Buddhist priests and monks.

Preposterous.
You confuse atheism for being the goal instead of the method. People like Stalin banned religion because they thought it was necessary to bring about socialism, not because they were trying to promote atheism. Religion has had the power to unite and strengthen resistance in the oppressed, something people like Stalin and Mao would obviously want to avoid.

Critical thinking, facts and historical perspective ... learn it.

I give you the same advice.

2009-07-05 08:54:17 PM

abb3w: Khanmots: And yes, I believe that it requires faith to believe in the existance of God... or to actively deny the existence of God.

The latter, however, does not require any more faith than denying that there is a cauliflower occupying your cranial cavity in place of a brain.

Well, one could perform a test to see if there is indeed a califlower occupying one's cranial cavity. One might even suspect that the existance of such a califlower would create observable side-affects on one's external behavior...

How about if we try a more appropriate analogy without the flaw of detectability?

We'll keep the general form, but lets substitute a different object... say we're talking about invisible, inherently indetectible, insubstantial, etc, etc, flying unicorns in one's cranial cavity instead? Now that we've tacked on all of those indetectable-type words onto the beginning of the postulated flying unicorns it's impossible to detect such a beast. How do you know that those don't exist?

Personally, I believe that such flying unicorns don't exist. However, I make no claims as to the correctness of my belief, as thier existence or not is inherently unknowable.

Heck, for all I know, there's a law of physics that creates a flock of insubtantial indetectible beings each and every time they are mentioned on fark. In which case my disbelief in indetectable flying unicorns flys in the face of how the universe works. I don't believe that either, but again, I have no way of knowing.

In short, to believe or disbelieve in something whose existence is unknowable requires faith. Doesn't matter if that's the aforementioned unicorn, the tooth fairy, God, or even an undetectable califlower...

swarms909

2009-07-05 08:54:34 PM

So, basically, the sign is reaching out to atheists and letting them know that they can still be good and not believe in God.

The Christians oppose this.

Are they saying that they want their atheists to be bad, so they can continue to hate on them?

Zombalupagus

2009-07-05 08:54:41 PM

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

This is a sincere query and is not intended as sarcasm.

I don't consider myself an atheist now but I have been one in the past.

I would say that the reason an atheist would be inclined to do good to others is that if there is no afterlife then this life is all we have. Once you are dead that's it, it's done. It sounds callous at first but if you think about it it means there is nothing more precious than life, this life. When someone dies needlessly it can be seen for the real tragedy that it is. That person will never again get to experience life; the precious gift gas been stolen from them.

Even if you don't believe that yourself think about it for a minute. Imagine a "what if" existence without a creator. The mere fact of our existence itself, by random chance alone, and the existence of the universe itself suddenly seems much more amazing and marvelous.

Atheist =/= Nihilist. It also does not cause a lack of wonder or lack of morality. People as individuals of course can see things any number of ways, though.

Hope that answers some questions or gives a new perspective.

For the record, I myself am torn on the matter. I guess you could say I'm 50% atheist and sometimes this percentage varies. But my moral foundation does not rely on religion. I had a friend who "found" Jesus and that went well enough for awhile. But when he fell out of it he went right back to "sinning". Religion was his moral foundation and once it was gone his morals flew right out the window to some degree. This is something that scares me about the hardcore fanatics. If all that is keeping them moral is their religion, what happens if they lose their faith? Or their "fear of God"?

2009-07-05 08:55:01 PM

vertiaset

Is it fun to waste words?

2009-07-05 08:56:07 PM

boomshakra: The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. In the end, Religion will kill us all. ~Ed Krebs

I respect that many members of my family are Christians - I choose to think for myself, but that quote above pretty much sums up where we're headed...

That's bullshiat. The world is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide because we are killer apes, and that's our nature. Religion and ideology are just excuses, and if we didn't have those, we'd find others. We have only improved very gradually over time, as we have evolved towards being a higher species. and we still have a looooooong way to go.

Minsky

2009-07-05 08:58:42 PM

Khanmots: In short, to believe or disbelieve in something whose existence is unknowable requires faith. Doesn't matter if that's the aforementioned unicorn, the tooth fairy, God, or even an undetectable califlower...

What leads you to believe that there are people reading your text? Or even that you're posting at all?

2009-07-05 08:58:59 PM

reklamfox: That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different.

The religion of the missionaries is moot. It was brought forward only to show that this was a functioning society in recent history.

I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

2009-07-05 08:59:20 PM

The Z Spot: The Z Spot: I remember back from school that I was a ENT J/P ... this fits me bout right, haha.
On that note, I wonder what would happen if there were a giant Myers-Briggs test for all the users on Fark. I wonder what the average personality is...

I think, the more interesting study might be: How many people are the "wrong" religion for their personality type. ;)

southern78

2009-07-05 08:59:32 PM

I always suspected it would begin in Florida but by a obese black santa I never saw that one coming. Now the Easter Bunny I could totally see him causing trouble.

2009-07-05 09:00:29 PM

theorellior: His surname is Le Trôle.

Does he need you to repeat that for him in every thread that he trolls?
Oh, I get it.
He's your alt. Or you're his. I haven't figured out which yet. I'm guessing letrole is the alt, since he trolls every single farking thread like this with the exact same copy/paste posts. And funny enough, you come in and defend him every time with the "Oh no, Le trole is just his surname, he's not really trolling."

Farking stop already.

2009-07-05 09:00:31 PM

vertiaset: It is nothing like that. What I am doing, and not very subtly I might add, is pointing out that"Good" and "Evil" exist and are universal. They are universal, only because men, as possessors of free will, share certain universal characteristics which many of you wrongfully put down as "genetic".

If they're universal among men, and men share a comment heredity, then it sounds like they might be hereditary, therefore genetic. If this is not the case, then do other species carry these universal characteristics? If not, then why man and only man? What is the criteria for being worth of free will? If it is not genetic, then why is a single species the only one to be so bestowed?

2009-07-05 09:00:58 PM

James F. Campbell: Excen: There is fluoride in a majority of water systems in the US.

Precious bodily fluids, etc.

My fluids are about as precious as quartz. And not that healing-crystal quartz neither.

Regarding the whole debate thing, I'll just leave this here:

api.ning.com

/I jizz buckets. Seriously. Ever seen a bath sheet that looks like a board?
//It only took me fifteen loads too!

2009-07-05 09:02:01 PM

My religion commands that that I bite off the penis of all liters.

*bites own penis*

2009-07-05 09:02:12 PM

Zombalupagus: vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

This is a sincere query and is not intended as sarcasm.

I don't consider myself an atheist now but I have been one in the past.

I would say that the reason an atheist would be inclined to do good to others is that if there is no afterlife then this life is all we have. Once you are dead that's it, it's done. It sounds callous at first but if you think about it it means there is nothing more precious than life, this life. When someone dies needlessly it can be seen for the real tragedy that it is. That person will never again get to experience life; the precious gift gas been stolen from them.

Even if you don't believe that yourself think about it for a minute. Imagine a "what if" existence without a creator. The mere fact of our existence itself, by random chance alone, and the existence of the universe itself suddenly seems much more amazing and marvelous.

Atheist =/= Nihilist. It also does not cause a lack of wonder or lack of morality. People as individuals of course can see things any number of ways, though.

Hope that answers some questions or gives a new perspective.

For the record, I myself am torn on the matter. I guess you could say I'm 50% atheist and sometimes this percentage varies. But my moral foundation does not rely on religion. I had a friend who "found" Jesus and that went well enough for awhile. But when he fell out of it he went right back to "sinning". Religion was his moral foundation and once it was gone his morals flew right out the window to some degree. This is something that scares me about the hardcore fanatics. If all that is keeping them moral is their religion, what happens if they lose their faith? Or their "fear of God"?

Look at it this way: I tell you there are fire-breathing unicorns 1,000 light years from Earth who judge humans in the after life based on how much corn they eat during their lifetime.

You have no way of knowing if I'm right, but it sounds ridiculous. So you either start eating lots of corn out of fear or accept that what I told you sounds improbably stupid and live your life to the best of your ability. That's pretty much been my experience with religion; I can't disprove old myths, but I'm sure as hell not going to acquiesce to their dogmas because I'm afraid they might be right. People came up with this stuff. Fear-based faith, plain and simple.

2009-07-05 09:02:15 PM

TFA: Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

Well, God doesn't seem to be doing the job, so how about themselves?
One of the biggest disservices religion does for people, IMO, is to make them believe that they have no strength of their own. All strength comes from the Lord, you're just a powerless conduit that he plays like a marionette. All glory be to God, none left for yourself. Then what happens when hardship comes and God lets go of the strings? If prayer doesn't work, people despair of ever helping themselves.

2009-07-05 09:03:05 PM

jso2897: letrole: reklamfox: That's not atheism that's anarchy. "No rules" does not sum up atheism, it sums up what you like to think atheism is.

Not true. The Eskimos, when we still called them Eskimos, had some very harsh practises. It was only in the last century that the following began to be discouraged, mainly by Christian missionaries.

If I want something that you have, and I take it by force in public, it is not theft.

If I do not like you, and I bash your brains in public, it is not murder.

If you are old or infirm and you become a burden, you are left to die on the ice.

If her firstborn is a girl, the mother must smother the infant.

The Inuit had plenty of religion before the Christians came. they worshiped gods. But they were mean gods. Kind of like the one that told medieval Christians to burn innocent women at the stake for witchcraft. It occurs to me that maybe nice people worship nice gods, and mean people worship mean gods. almost as is the problem sprang from human nature, rather than particular beliefs.
Naa - that's just too far-fetched :D

By the way, boys, it's time for PC Seminar!

Eskimo is NOT a dirty word.

Canadian Inuit demand to be called Inuit, true. They dislike the connotation and the fact that the word originated from outside of their language.

But Alaskans have two main clans of people, the Inupiat of the North Slope region, and the Yupik on the West Coast. They call themselves Eskimo, reflecting their common Arctic subsistence culture.

Canada = Inuit
Alaska = Eskimo

2009-07-05 09:03:36 PM

khonshu: The Z Spot: The Z Spot: I remember back from school that I was a ENT J/P ... this fits me bout right, haha.
On that note, I wonder what would happen if there were a giant Myers-Briggs test for all the users on Fark. I wonder what the average personality is...

I think, the more interesting study might be: How many people are the "wrong" religion for their personality type. ;)

Oh, not even that one...I just meant a real version of the test. I would be interested in the legitimate results...though its too many questions and would be a pain to gather.

soseussme

2009-07-05 09:03:44 PM

People whose faith is so easily threatened really don't have much faith.

2009-07-05 09:03:53 PM

letrole: reklamfox: That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different.

The religion of the missionaries is moot. It was brought forward only to show that this was a functioning society in recent history.

I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

Exactly. Which is why faith and atheism are both moral null-states. Neither will make a bad person good, or a good one bad.

2009-07-05 09:04:02 PM

theorellior: There's a ~~theory~~ hypothesis that religion and religious feeling developed in the human species for exactly this reason: to curb the sociopaths who would otherwise fark up the system and make them productive members of society.

Benchmark SC.3.N.3.1: Recognize that words in science can have different or more specific meanings than their use in everyday language; for example, energy, cell, heat/cold, and evidence. Benchmark SC.6.N.3.1: Recognize and explain that a scientific theory is a well-supported and widely accepted explanation of nature and is not simply a claim posed by an individual. Thus, the use of the term theory in science is very different than how it is used in everyday life. Benchmark SC.912.N.3.1: Explain that a scientific theory is the culmination of many scientific investigations drawing together all the current evidence concerning a substantial range of phenomena; thus, a scientific theory represents the most powerful explanation scientists have to offer.

DamnYankees: I really wish atheists would resist the urge to be defensive about the atheist-motivated killings by people like Stalin. The truth is it did happen, often due to a belief that religion was evil and harmful, and that atheism was required. The point that atheists should be making is not to deny that it happened, but merely to recognize that atheism is a necessary condition to rationality, but not a sufficient one. Atheists are not perfect and can be motivated to do bad things in the name of atheism.

I think the key is understanding that theism does improve societal ethics over "universal war of extermination". However, theism is not the only alternative to such. The effort spearheaded by Stalin was an attempt to replace Theism with Marxism as the ultimate basis for morality; it did not work especially well for the long term.

Even atheists who are "moral relativists" don't seem to understand that religion can only be considered Good or Bad when compared to some alternative.

vertiaset: Churches as competing form of government. Absurd.

Did you ever study history of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire?

Perhaps you might also talk to an anthropologist about what the differences between "religions" and "governments" are... and are not.

genner: To the second question, if you want to prove that atheists can have morality it would helpful to explain why.

Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Although as a quibble, I'd like to distinguish "morality" as the scale of good and evil (similar to temperature) as opposed to "ethics", which are the rules/constructs such as "thou shalt not kill" used to give approximations to morality.

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway?

Ibid.

vertiaset: Is there "good" and "evil".

In the same sense as "hot" and "cold".

vertiaset: Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Both; the exact character of choices being good/evil have an absolute universal measure, but this measure is a function of the entity choosing and environment of the choice.

Uncle Tractor: ~~Morals are~~ Ethics evolved, just like our opposing thumbs and bulging heads.

FTFY.

2009-07-05 09:04:44 PM

ReverendJasen: Does he need you to repeat that for him in every thread that he trolls? [Extra deleted]

Dude, chill the fark out. It's rare that letrole and I are in the same threads, and it's rarer still that I engage him at all. Did you read the rest of my posts in the thread, or did you just notice my mockery posts and go apeshiat?

2009-07-05 09:05:02 PM

Poppa Boner: My religion commands that that I bite off the penis of all liters.

*bites own penis*

MY religion dictates that all people flexible enough to suck their own dick are witches, and as such, must be burned at the stake.

/And that, folks, is why people put on C4 vests and commit suicide in farmers markets

2009-07-05 09:05:02 PM

letrole: reklamfox: That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different.

The religion of the missionaries is moot. It was brought forward only to show that this was a functioning society in recent history.

I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

I'm none of those, but also an atheist. So... am I a robot?

2009-07-05 09:05:04 PM

The Z Spot: khonshu: The Z Spot: The Z Spot: I remember back from school that I was a ENT J/P ... this fits me bout right, haha.
On that note, I wonder what would happen if there were a giant Myers-Briggs test for all the users on Fark. I wonder what the average personality is...

I think, the more interesting study might be: How many people are the "wrong" religion for their personality type. ;)

Oh, not even that one...I just meant a real version of the test. I would be interested in the legitimate results...though its too many questions and would be a pain to gather.

but still, yea, your's is pretty funny.

2009-07-05 09:06:20 PM

vertiaset: What I am doing, and not very subtly I might add, is pointing out that"Good" and "Evil" exist and are universal.

You are not at all close to doing this. You simply just noted a culture of people all willing to cheer wildly at the act of sacrificing humans, which seems to ignore the premise that morality is universal. This certainly doesn't begin to establish the faintest notion.

vertiaset: Ideas, such as "beauty", "truth", "liberty" or "good and evil" belong to the higher, more refined realm of Philosophy.

Really, these do not. All are in the eye of the beholder, which is determined by our genetics, our upbringing, and our perspective based on the situation. Beauty especially, since we have a great deal of chemical reactions surrounding lust and love, as well as predispositions towards symmetry and more.

All of those appear to be well grounded in the natural, boring old world of neurology and similar. People enjoy believing the world is ethereal and mystical, despite the reality being vastly more complex and captivating.

2009-07-05 09:06:40 PM

Lenny_da_Hog: jso2897: letrole: reklamfox: That's not atheism that's anarchy. "No rules" does not sum up atheism, it sums up what you like to think atheism is.

Not true. The Eskimos, when we still called them Eskimos, had some very harsh practises. It was only in the last century that the following began to be discouraged, mainly by Christian missionaries.

If I want something that you have, and I take it by force in public, it is not theft.

If I do not like you, and I bash your brains in public, it is not murder.

If you are old or infirm and you become a burden, you are left to die on the ice.

If her firstborn is a girl, the mother must smother the infant.

The Inuit had plenty of religion before the Christians came. they worshiped gods. But they were mean gods. Kind of like the one that told medieval Christians to burn innocent women at the stake for witchcraft. It occurs to me that maybe nice people worship nice gods, and mean people worship mean gods. almost as is the problem sprang from human nature, rather than particular beliefs.
Naa - that's just too far-fetched :D

By the way, boys, it's time for PC Seminar!

Eskimo is NOT a dirty word.

Canadian Inuit demand to be called Inuit, true. They dislike the connotation and the fact that the word originated from outside of their language.

But Alaskans have two main clans of people, the Inupiat of the North Slope region, and the Yupik on the West Coast. They call themselves Eskimo, reflecting their common Arctic subsistence culture.

Canada = Inuit
Alaska = Eskimo

Well excuuuuuuse me! Didn't mean to offend your delicate little anti-pc sensibilities, Nancy.
You'll get over it.

2009-07-05 09:06:51 PM

So then why, letrole, should we turn to God for the answers? What makes you so much better then me, an atheist who walks the straight and narrow? You made it clear you believe that atheists have no second thoughts about killing raping and stealing, and yet here we are as a minority in the country still alive and well. If I lack morals, what exactly did I use to fill it's place? How can you say you and I are so different if we are both good people? How are you any better then me? Because you are afraid the angry hand of God will reach down and smite you if you don't drag you ass to church every Sunday?

Well then smite me now! Because I'm sleepin in on Sunday.

2009-07-05 09:06:54 PM

The Icelander: Fitness has more to do with ability to survive than ability to hurt others. Humans don't have claws or big teeth. They're not particularly strong or particularly fast. The secret to our success is our ability to cooperate to achieve a goal.

No. You're treading very close to the idea of the noble savage. The secret to our success is that we're descended from those who were stronger and able to take what they wanted and impose their will.

Your view of society being "cooperative" reminds me of a child who assumes that eggs come from the grocery. In a sense, that's true, but only recently.

cmb53208

2009-07-05 09:07:13 PM

Maybe we should make Oklahoma a penal colony for fundies.

2009-07-05 09:07:25 PM

abb3w: Both; the exact character of choices being good/evil have an absolute universal measure, but this measure is a function of the entity choosing and environment of the choice.

I'll give you a golf clap for that summary posting--the whole thing, not just the quoted part.

Kierkegaard's Pseudonym

2009-07-05 09:07:39 PM

So Big Mama's religious brood is out there on the streets killing each other and atheism is the militant belief?

2009-07-05 09:08:03 PM

abb3w: Both; the exact character of choices being good/evil have an absolute universal measure, but this measure is a function of the entity choosing and environment of the choice.

You're always much better at expressing those concepts than myself. Thank you.

solitary

2009-07-05 09:08:31 PM

Cheron: I don't understand, "blessed are the cheese makers?"

It's not meant to be taken literally; it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.

2009-07-05 09:08:35 PM

Vangor: vertiaset: What I am doing, and not very subtly I might add, is pointing out that"Good" and "Evil" exist and are universal.

You are not at all close to doing this. You simply just noted a culture of people all willing to cheer wildly at the act of sacrificing humans, which seems to ignore the premise that morality is universal. This certainly doesn't begin to establish the faintest notion.

vertiaset: Ideas, such as "beauty", "truth", "liberty" or "good and evil" belong to the higher, more refined realm of Philosophy.

Really, these do not. All are in the eye of the beholder, which is determined by our genetics, our upbringing, and our perspective based on the situation. Beauty especially, since we have a great deal of chemical reactions surrounding lust and love, as well as predispositions towards symmetry and more.

All of those appear to be well grounded in the natural, boring old world of neurology and similar. People enjoy believing the world is ethereal and mystical, despite the reality being vastly more complex and captivating.

snap.

vertiaset, may I reply for you? "Oh."

Ringshadow

2009-07-05 09:08:55 PM

/reading up on Taoism these days
//but amused by the sign

bobnalong

2009-07-05 09:09:12 PM

letrole
If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

WTF?
Wow. I blew out birthday candles a few days ago. Oh the huge manatee.

2009-07-05 09:09:19 PM

jso2897:
Well excuuuuuuse me! Didn't mean to offend your delicate little anti-pc sensibilities, Nancy.
You'll get over it.

Psst. I was giving you freedom. You were locking yourself into an unnecessary PC term.

2009-07-05 09:10:22 PM

Ailurophile: People need to know there are other people like them around, some even like to know them in person

My wife and I are friends with a couple who are also atheists. It's nice when we're around them because we can talk about things more openly than with our other friends.

2009-07-05 09:11:05 PM

letrole: Your view of society being "cooperative" reminds me of a child who assumes that eggs come from the grocery. In a sense, that's true, but only recently.

Your explanation here reminds me of a child who believes that chickens poop their eggs out. Incorrect, but understandable.

2009-07-05 09:11:58 PM

Minsky:What leads you to believe that there are people reading your text? Or even that you're posting at all?

As snarky as you may think you're being, it's a good question, and one that's been asked countless times by philosophers throughout history.

What is reality? Is it what we perceive? If so, how do we know that what we perceive is real? Do we even exist? Perhaps we're nothing more than a construct of something's dream...

2009-07-05 09:12:16 PM

The Z Spot:
Oh, not even that one...I just meant a real version of the test. I would be interested in the legitimate results...though its too many questions and would be a pain to gather.

but still, yea, your's is pretty funny.

I think there is a least a little truth in the fact that people who tend to be atheistic/theistic/agnostic are a certain personality type.

I myself grew up as a United Methodist, but I'm an ENFP. Methodists and other "dry and structured" Protestant groups are great for ISTJ's but it didn't work for me. That may not be because my personality type is different, but it's not hard to see why it's a distinct possibility.

2009-07-05 09:12:48 PM

Khanmots: What is reality? Is it what we perceive? If so, how do we know that what we perceive is real? Do we even exist? Perhaps we're nothing more than a construct of something's dream...

Duuuuuuuude..... Whoa. Pass me the Cheetos.

2009-07-05 09:15:10 PM

MorganFreeman: letrole: reklamfox: That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different.

The religion of the missionaries is moot. It was brought forward only to show that this was a functioning society in recent history.

I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

I'm none of those, but also an atheist. So... am I a robot?

No. Just self deceiving, and possibly not too well acquainted with history and anthropology. Unless what you mean is that you are a civilized person who has chosen to be more and better than his mere biology made him to be. Man can transcend his animal nature - but he must know it and own it to do so, in the long run. And no system of belief can guarantee that outcome.
the Golden Rule may be hackneyed and cliched - but finally, it's all we've got.

2009-07-05 09:16:00 PM

The Icelander: Ailurophile: People need to know there are other people like them around, some even like to know them in person

My wife and I are friends with a couple who are also atheists. It's nice when we're around them because we can talk about things more openly than with our other friends.

That's kind of like us and our Neocon neighbors. Well she's nice, but we really can't be around him for more than 20 minutes before he brings up Obama.

What a way to ruin a perfectly good BBQ.

2009-07-05 09:16:59 PM

theorellior: Khanmots: What is reality? Is it what we perceive? If so, how do we know that what we perceive is real? Do we even exist? Perhaps we're nothing more than a construct of something's dream...

Duuuuuuuude..... Whoa. Pass me the Cheetos.

You'll have to ask all those long-dead dudes for the cheetos. I'm not the one who asked those questions.

Although I'm sure that you'd recognize the names of a lot of those who did. They were rather famous people...

2009-07-05 09:17:27 PM

khonshu: The Z Spot:
Oh, not even that one...I just meant a real version of the test. I would be interested in the legitimate results...though its too many questions and would be a pain to gather.

but still, yea, your's is pretty funny.

I think there is a least a little truth in the fact that people who tend to be atheistic/theistic/agnostic are a certain personality type.

I myself grew up as a United Methodist, but I'm an ENFP. Methodists and other "dry and structured" Protestant groups are great for ISTJ's but it didn't work for me. That may not be because my personality type is different, but it's not hard to see why it's a distinct possibility.

Yea, that is really interesting...I can definitely see what you're saying. I always liked looking at group dynamics; and religion is just as good a place as any other... are you basing your thoughts just generally off of your own observations, or has there ever really been a big study done on religions by personality type?

2009-07-05 09:18:24 PM

letrole: The Icelander: Fitness has more to do with ability to survive than ability to hurt others. Humans don't have claws or big teeth. They're not particularly strong or particularly fast. The secret to our success is our ability to cooperate to achieve a goal.

No. You're treading very close to the idea of the noble savage. The secret to our success is that we're descended from those who were stronger and able to take what they wanted and impose their will.

Your view of society being "cooperative" reminds me of a child who assumes that eggs come from the grocery. In a sense, that's true, but only recently.

Uh, I don't have the picture of the alien newscaster from Futurama handy, so I will just have to say: "That is not how natural selection works!"
But if it makes you feel any better, he's wrong too.

2009-07-05 09:19:36 PM

vertiaset: Sorry this is a cop out and I suspect, intelligent person that you are your realize it.

The question is a rather meaningless one, but I did express the fact that the practice and praise by people was abhorrent. In essence, I am saying I do not find the act to be good, and were I in such a culture I would be an utterly different person.

2009-07-05 09:20:36 PM

2009-07-05 09:20:47 PM

jso2897: MorganFreeman: letrole: reklamfox: That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different.

The religion of the missionaries is moot. It was brought forward only to show that this was a functioning society in recent history.

I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

I'm none of those, but also an atheist. So... am I a robot?

No. Just self deceiving, and possibly not too well acquainted with history and anthropology. Unless what you mean is that you are a civilized person who has chosen to be more and better than his mere biology made him to be. Man can transcend his animal nature - but he must know it and own it to do so, in the long run. And no system of belief can guarantee that outcome.
the Golden Rule may be hackneyed and cliched - but finally, it's all we've got.

Let's not get catty. I don't lack education, I just recognize that what people call the "natural state of man" is malleable. The savagery letrole talks about would be completely unnatural in my life. I'm not too stupid to know things would be different if I was fighting wolves for food scraps in the forest. letrole talks about social altruism like it's a stupid concept, which is something only a stupid person would believe.

2009-07-05 09:21:11 PM

The Z Spot: Yea, that is really interesting...I can definitely see what you're saying. I always liked looking at group dynamics; and religion is just as good a place as any other... are you basing your thoughts just generally off of your own observations, or has there ever really been a big study done on religions by personality type?

No, I don't think there's ever been a big study done. I found that chart here at FARK once, but I don't know who came up with it. I kept it because it seems so very very true! :)

2009-07-05 09:21:40 PM

theorellior: Dude, chill the fark out. It's rare that letrole and I are in the same threads, and it's rarer still that I engage him at all. Did you read the rest of my posts in the thread, or did you just notice my mockery posts and go apeshiat?

That's apeshiat?
I noticed a repeated trend and offered my opinion of it.
"le trole" comes into every single atheism thread we have and posts the same thing, verbatim. "Atheism is a religion"--knowing exactly the response it will receive.
Every time, someone goes "oh, haha, your name is letrole, we get it!" and you have personally defended him in at least three threads now that I can remember, saying the same thing. "oh, no, his surname really is le trole!"

First, why would you care, and second, how do you really know?
If that's apeshiat, then call me King Kong.

Chaghatai

2009-07-05 09:22:21 PM

MBK: To play devil's advocate...

If you are going to complain about signs that are pro-religion, then you shouldn't complain about the protesters who dislike "anti-religion" signs. If you do, doesn't it make you hypocritical?

More like, the X-tians that complain about such billboards should get equally offended by the "-God" Billboards.

I don't complain about pro-religious signs, and the purchaser didn't seem to complain about them either - instead, he just bought space on his own.

2009-07-05 09:22:28 PM

vertiaset: It is no coincidence that Christianity appealed first to women, the poor and slaves of the ancient world. Its message of universal love, equality for all men and women before God and forgiveness of one's enemies was a huge step forward for mankind.

Theeeeen it was exploited politically, used to build nations and conquer others, the framework for enslaving others, established hierarchical divisions in society, limited the growth of knowledge, furthered serfdom, acted as a method of extracting 'taxes' from the poor... Jesus, I haven't even broke into 11AD yet.

2009-07-05 09:23:08 PM

I wonder who first associated the word "militant" to "atheist"?

Why aren't they "zealous"? "Enthusiastic"? It's always "militant atheist."

/never seen an atheist militia...

2009-07-05 09:23:45 PM

letrole: No. You're treading very close to the idea of the noble savage. The secret to our success is that we're descended from those who were stronger and able to take what they wanted and impose their will.

Thankfully, most anthropologists disagree with you.

If we were a primarily competitive species, like most wild cats, we wouldn't have evolved things like speech and empathy. All other humans would be greeted with suspicion. Societies would never form, as they require people to cooperate on large scales and live around people they've never met.

Now, you may view all other humans as threats to our life and well-being, but most humans don't. If this is the case, I suggest you get your medication changed, as you're likely a paranoid schizophrenic.

jmr61

2009-07-05 09:24:03 PM

I just donated $25.00 to them.

May do more depending on their totals.

2009-07-05 09:25:45 PM

Anti_illuminati: That's kind of like us and our Neocon neighbors. Well she's nice, but we really can't be around him for more than 20 minutes before he brings up Obama.

True story: We had a party on election night to watch the results come in. We invited our neighbors, a 20-something couple who live in the city with us and don't have kids, and they were sort of on the fence about it. I said "Don't worry: Everyone there will be Democrats!"

Turns out they're Republican.

\They didn't come to the party
\\But we did share some champagne with some neighbors who moved in the week prior

2009-07-05 09:27:52 PM

ReverendJasen: Every time, someone goes "oh, haha, your name is letrole, we get it!" and you have personally defended him in at least three threads now that I can remember, saying the same thing. "oh, no, his surname really is le trole!"

Well, all I can say is, you are mistaken about that. I only started doing that in this thread, and that was to mock him for his standard response to accusations of trolling. Note my post at 2009-07-05 08:33:46 PM, where I use it on him.

2009-07-05 09:28:25 PM

MorganFreeman: jso2897: MorganFreeman: letrole: reklamfox: That's exactly it, they were told by CHRISTIAN missionaries. That doesn't mean it was right, it was just different.

The religion of the missionaries is moot. It was brought forward only to show that this was a functioning society in recent history.

I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

I'm none of those, but also an atheist. So... am I a robot?

No. Just self deceiving, and possibly not too well acquainted with history and anthropology. Unless what you mean is that you are a civilized person who has chosen to be more and better than his mere biology made him to be. Man can transcend his animal nature - but he must know it and own it to do so, in the long run. And no system of belief can guarantee that outcome.
the Golden Rule may be hackneyed and cliched - but finally, it's all we've got.

Let's not get catty. I don't lack education, I just recognize that what people call the "natural state of man" is malleable. The savagery letrole talks about would be completely unnatural in my life. I'm not too stupid to know things would be different if I was fighting wolves for food scraps in the forest. letrole talks about social altruism like it's a stupid concept, which is something only a stupid person would believe.

I apologize. That actually sounded snottier than I intended. my point is that many of the things we value in ourselves are artifacts we have chosen to create around ourselves, and not aspects of our intrinsic nature - and that most of what is known about our species points to that conclusion - I did not intend it as an argument from authority, which it came off like. Sorry.

2009-07-05 09:28:43 PM

The Icelander: Anti_illuminati: That's kind of like us and our Neocon neighbors. Well she's nice, but we really can't be around him for more than 20 minutes before he brings up Obama.

True story: We had a party on election night to watch the results come in. We invited our neighbors, a 20-something couple who live in the city with us and don't have kids, and they were sort of on the fence about it. I said "Don't worry: Everyone there will be Democrats!"

Turns out they're Republican.

\They didn't come to the party
\\But we did share some champagne with some neighbors who moved in the week priorfark 'em. Their kids will grow up to be school shooters.

/Kleibold's and Harris' parents were Republicans. Look it up.

sirrerun

2009-07-05 09:29:28 PM

As a ~~black~~ African-American atheist, whose mother lives in Florida, I'm really getting a kick out of ~~these replies~~ all of this.

rustylite

2009-07-05 09:32:16 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Boy am I glad I don't live in the US where adults are basically 200+ lbs children!

What's the difference between a Canadian man and a Canadian woman?

Nothing! They are both dickless.

2009-07-05 09:32:22 PM

The Icelander: Anti_illuminati: That's kind of like us and our Neocon neighbors. Well she's nice, but we really can't be around him for more than 20 minutes before he brings up Obama.

True story: We had a party on election night to watch the results come in. We invited our neighbors, a 20-something couple who live in the city with us and don't have kids, and they were sort of on the fence about it. I said "Don't worry: Everyone there will be Democrats!"

Turns out they're Republican.

\They didn't come to the party
\\But we did share some champagne with some neighbors who moved in the week prior

Nice.

I got a text from my neighbor that night, "Congrats to your Messiah. One nation under Allah!"

I never realized why he always talked to me about politics; however after living next to him for about two years I realized he has no social life at all. Feel bad for him really.

2009-07-05 09:32:26 PM

MorganFreeman: I'm not too stupid to know things would be different if I was fighting wolves for food scraps in the forest.

If you were fighting alone, sure.

But if you were alone in the woods and came across another person you didn't know, it wouldn't take too long for you to figure out that you'd get more scraps from the wolves if you were working together.

2009-07-05 09:32:36 PM

The Icelander: Now, you may view all other humans as threats to our life and well-being, but most humans don't. If this is the case, I suggest you get your medication changed, as you're likely a paranoid schizophrenic.

For some reason a lot of ill-educated people think of primitive societies as being lone-wolf me-against-the-world oriented. I think it has to do with sublimated adolescent fantasies of power and control. Those early humans who did practice this lone-wolf existence probably did not breed much and fortunately did not pass on their antisocial genes. A single human by himself is no match for much of anything.

2009-07-05 09:32:59 PM

ReverendJasen: tit
theorellior: tat
ReverendJasen: spit
theorellior: spat

There now, girls. Play nice.

2009-07-05 09:33:14 PM

letrole: I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

In some cases yes.
But overall? No. Overall humans are cooperative creatures, and if you put any sizable population together, the majority of them will come together to help and protect each other. If this wasn't the case, humans simply wouldn't have lived long enough to even invent religion.

Saying that cooperation is an ingrained behavior isn't the same as saying that every human is a saint from birth who would never do anything bad to another human. What it says is that we are predisposed to cooperate with each other and form groups to benefit all. This is the definition of a social animal. Chimps can do it without the Bible, so can we. The difference is that our brains also give us the ability to have a complex culture, which then allows groups of humans to refine their behavior over time by passing down the rules.

2009-07-05 09:33:42 PM

Excen: fark 'em. Their kids will grow up to be school shooters.

/Kleibold's and Harris' parents were Republicans. Look it up.

They're really quite nice. They apparently went to a party at the local RNC. Ours was probably more fun.

2009-07-05 09:35:55 PM

letrole: ReverendJasen: tit
theorellior: tat
ReverendJasen: spit
theorellior: spat

There now, girls. Play nice.

See? Because you called me out and since I'm a social creature who believes in morality and playing fair I had to show my hand to letrole. Thanks a lot, ReverendJasen. BTW, God didn't make me do it, I did it myself.

; )

2009-07-05 09:36:03 PM

Excen: MY religion dictates that all people flexible enough to suck their own dick are witches, and as such, must be burned at the stake.

2009-07-05 09:37:53 PM

theorellior: A single human by himself is no match for much of anything.

And that's why people form into tribes. But primitive societies aren't run like kum-bah-yah hippie communes.

2009-07-05 09:38:35 PM

The Icelander: letrole: No. You're treading very close to the idea of the noble savage. The secret to our success is that we're descended from those who were stronger and able to take what they wanted and impose their will.

Thankfully, most anthropologists disagree with you.

If we were a primarily competitive species, like most wild cats, we wouldn't have evolved things like speech and empathy. All other humans would be greeted with suspicion. Societies would never form, as they require people to cooperate on large scales and live around people they've never met.

Now, you may view all other humans as threats to our life and well-being, but most humans don't. If this is the case, I suggest you get your medication changed, as you're likely a paranoid schizophrenic.

It's not that simple. These empathetic characteristics you describe are very real and essential, they are also distinctly tribal in their manifestation. And the process of tribal competition, and the survival based "marketplace of ideas" that it has exercised over the course of our history was essential to the emergence of successful cultures, which in turn lead to civilization itself - which is all that has REALLY ever improved Man's behavior toward man.
Many "natural" aspects of our being are bad. many of the artifices we have erected between ourselves and other parts of our selves are good. It ain't simple.

avictor

2009-07-05 09:39:58 PM

It's a war Atheism. If their god is so powerful I am sure he will strike the sign down himself.

2009-07-05 09:41:51 PM

2009-07-05 09:43:10 PM

vertiaset: Morality is purely a human construct. It comes from our ability, unique in the animal kingdom, of perceiving a "separateness" from the rest of God's creation.

No, it comes from the fact that we're social animals. Other social animals demonstrate morality as well. Dolphins will protect swimmers from sharks and save shipwrecked sailors. Female wolves will raise abandoned human children as their own.

One thing that bugs me about Christians is that if there's a question they don't know the answer to, they automatically jump to god as the explanation. And then, when they're proven wrong time and time again, it's the scientist's fault for hating religion.

2009-07-05 09:45:40 PM

jso2897: Many "natural" aspects of our being are bad. many of the artifices we have erected between ourselves and other parts of our selves are good. It ain't simple.

You're right, it's not as simple as I was making it out to be. But it's also not as simple as letrole is making it out to be, either. And I think his "The only thing that keeps us from bashing open each other's skulls and feasting on the goo inside is religion" hypothesis is the one that's the furthest from reality.

2009-07-05 09:45:42 PM

The Icelander: Dolphins will protect swimmers from sharks and save shipwrecked sailors. Female wolves will raise abandoned human children as their own.

I once saw a cartoon that had a talking cat.

Chaghatai

2009-07-05 09:45:45 PM

vertiaset: G2V
vertiaset:
One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral.

One of my main problems with religious people is that many, certainly not all, churches require you to kill someone and bathe in their blood in order to be baptised. Also, they are commanded by god to kill one unbeliever per week or, even worse, to commit drive by strafings of churches of different belief systems.

Durrr ... durrr ...

I liked it - see what he did there? I took it as "you make up stupid shiat about atheists and I'll make stupid shiat up about religious types"

2009-07-05 09:46:00 PM

letrole: But primitive societies aren't run like kum-bah-yah hippie communes.

Well, no, nothing would get done, no one would want to hunt, and who would grow the patchouli?

andreo

2009-07-05 09:46:02 PM

ggecko: "I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

The first thing I yelled involuntarily was: "how about their farking parents you fat cow!!!"

If the damn parents teach their kids that it is *not* alright to act like idiots then perhaps there may not be as many kids killing kids. But I'm pretty sure that everyone has been praying their way through all the violence for decades. Guess what? It's not working!!!

So, is she trying to say it is only athiest kids killing each other? Afterall, those that believe in God, they wouldn't do such a thing, right?

2009-07-05 09:47:47 PM

andreo: So, is she trying to say it is only athiest kids killing each other?

Are athy kids like emo kids?

2009-07-05 09:48:24 PM

vertiaset: In humans though, there is more than this. We extend this bond first to our mate, then to our family, clan and tribe. Then to nation and even to mankind or all of creations. We can now love abstract things such as liberty or beauty.

Love of one's mate evolved because human babies take an astonishingly long time to raise and therefore having another parent around really helped their odds of survival. Love of one's family and tribe has a similar root.

Love of abstract things like liberty and beauty aren't nearly the same as the love I have for my daughter or my wife.

2009-07-05 09:48:55 PM

theorellior: and who would ~~grow~~ smoke the patchouli?

Me.

2009-07-05 09:50:01 PM

letrole: I once saw a cartoon that had a talking cat.

I prefer the ones without the talking cat. ^{(^)}

Marcintosh

2009-07-05 09:51:03 PM

Huh -

I'll be damned

Sygerrik

2009-07-05 09:51:52 PM

How dare they? To suggest that you can be moral without being religious is tantamount to saying that non-religious people are equal to religious ones in more important ways. It's extremely disrespectful to religion to insinuate that religious people are not inherently superior to nonreligious ones.

2009-07-05 09:52:49 PM

After seeing the billboard, Team of Life community activist Essie "Big Mama" Reed brought her students out to protest it Wednesday afternoon. "Nothing else matters, but that sign needs to come down. In the name of Jesus," Big Mama chanted, as she led her students in protest.

Glad she has her priorities straight.

2009-07-05 09:52:57 PM

The Icelander: But it's also not as simple as letrole is making it out to be, either. And I think his "The only thing that keeps us from bashing open each other's skulls and feasting on the goo inside is religion" hypothesis is the one that's the furthest from reality.

I never said such a thing. My point is that apart from God, there is no right and wrong, only results. I presented an example of men in the wild state who didn't have a full-blown sense of Western Ethics, as many "modern thinkers" seem to assume they would.

boomshakra

2009-07-05 09:55:45 PM

jso2897: boomshakra: The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. In the end, Religion will kill us all. ~Ed Krebs

I respect that many members of my family are Christians - I choose to think for myself, but that quote above pretty much sums up where we're headed...

That's bullshiat. The world is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide because we are killer apes, and that's our nature. Religion and ideology are just excuses, and if we didn't have those, we'd find others. We have only improved very gradually over time, as we have evolved towards being a higher species. and we still have a looooooong way to go.

ok, you lost me at "...and if we didn't have those, we'd find others..." if we didn't have excuses...we'd find...other...what? this thread is about opposing beliefs (religion vs atheism).

perhaps you should quote Arnold in T2 "...it is your nature to destroy yourselves..." yes, we are very well developed apes capable at destroying entire continents...

not trolling, just looking for a bit more elaboration

2009-07-05 09:56:52 PM

letrole: My point is that apart from God, there is no right and wrong, only results.

So, apart from some fictional ideal of an absolute right and wrong, there's no absolute right and wrong?

I can buy that.

NCg8r

2009-07-05 09:57:51 PM

2009-07-05 09:58:12 PM

2009-07-05 09:59:10 PM

vertiaset: Don't be silly. Ants are social animals as are bees. There is no morality in nature beyond man and you know it.

I would think that it's pretty obvious that I don't. And I find your comparison between ants and bees and wolves and dolphins laughable.

Scientists do not hate religion.

Way to miss the point.

nmathew01

2009-07-05 09:59:21 PM

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Mind telling me where you get yours? No sarcasm intended.

2009-07-05 10:06:45 PM

nmathew01: Mind telling me where you get yours? No sarcasm intended.

I'm also interested to know how he knows not to kill witches and unruly children.

Apik0r0s

2009-07-05 10:06:47 PM

The day I stopped believing is fairy tales I raped a baby and stole an old lady's life savings.

2009-07-05 10:08:32 PM

The Icelander: letrole: My point is that apart from God, there is no right and wrong, only results.
So, apart from some fictional ideal of an absolute right and wrong, there's no absolute right and wrong?
I can buy that.

Absolutely. This is where your high-horse ride ends. The supposed basis for morality that New Atheism attempts to concoct is bunk.

You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society. Try as you might, you can only find ways of "scientifically" explaining the things that you were already taught.

2009-07-05 10:10:03 PM

vertiaset: We are ~~more than~~ a product of the sum of our parts or and our cumulative genetic evolution.

What exactly is it that we do that isn't due to our biology?
All those things we do that you talked about are directly due to our brain's capacity for abstract thought, something it provides us precisely because of our parts and "cumulative genetic evolution".

Chaghatai

2009-07-05 10:11:23 PM

genner: PlatinumDragon: If you don't believe in a imortal soul why do you care about what happens 100 years from now?

Why is belief in an immortal soul related, at all, to concern about the future of humanity?

Simple you'll be dead in a 100 years. With no soul no continue and no god to reward you why do you care?

That's why I tend to think that atheists are more moral individuals than the kind of people that hold the views that you just espoused.

See to the type of faithful that you described, when they do a good act it is to please their god and secure a reward in the afterlife, or avoid some kind of punishment.

When an atheist does a good act - they are doing it because they are simply good. Not to secure a reward, not to avoid punishment. I know it baffles the minds of some of the faithful that such people exist, but it's true - they live amoung you.

Another reason is that people want to be immortal - one of the reasons religion appeals to people - they enjoy believing that they will live forever in another form.

I can't speak for others, but my awareness that I contain DNA from a population of DNA that will continue to replicate after I die gives me a sense of kinship to future and past generations. As such I care about the future as it is the legacy of that which I am currently a manisfestation.

Also a person lives on more personally in the works they leave behind and the impressions they leave on others.

It really doesn't take deluding onesself into beliving in immortality to give a shiat about the future beyond one's own lifetime. Trust me, I do it all the time.

2009-07-05 10:12:57 PM

letrole: The Icelander: letrole: My point is that apart from God, there is no right and wrong, only results.
So, apart from some fictional ideal of an absolute right and wrong, there's no absolute right and wrong?
I can buy that.

Absolutely. This is where your high-horse ride ends. The supposed basis for morality that New Atheism attempts to concoct is bunk.

You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society. Try as you might, you can only find ways of "scientifically" explaining the things that you were already taught.

1. We are not a Judeo-Christian society, they just make up the majority of the people. It's not the same thing.
2. How do you explain the fact that people in non-Judeo-Christian societies all over the world believe these same things?
3. Are you going to answer me this time, or do the Christian thing and ignore completely valid points when they contradict your world view?

2009-07-05 10:12:58 PM

letrole: You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society.

True that. All my Hindu friends have no concept of murder or theft.

2009-07-05 10:13:17 PM

MorganFreeman: My point is that apart from God the God I believe in

So substitute whatever deity or religion you choose. You end up with somebody saying "because I said so". Either that, or it's each man deciding for himself if murder is murder.

2009-07-05 10:14:57 PM

letrole: MorganFreeman: My point is that apart from God the God I believe in

So substitute whatever deity or religion you choose. You end up with somebody saying "because I said so". Either that, or it's each man deciding for himself if murder is murder.

So... you're admitting that morality is actually completely subjective.

gaslight

2009-07-05 10:16:09 PM

vertiaset: James F. Campbell

My favorite atheist. A man who was not an ideologue. Not a hater. A man who knew both religion and science. A man who realized one could be a skeptic and a believer. A true seeker after the "Truth" ... yes with a capital "T".

Most people don't know that Azimov's sideburns were actually aliens that had grafted themselves onto his skull. These extended as tentacles and could each operate typewriters on their own, accounting for his prodigious output.

G.

2009-07-05 10:19:08 PM

letrole: You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society.

When the Roman's crucified Jesus next to that murderer and thief, it was because they lived in a Judeo-Christian society...or something.

You're stupid.

2009-07-05 10:20:19 PM

MorganFreeman: morality is actually completely subjective

Morality is biological. It has evolved.

2009-07-05 10:20:51 PM

letrole: Absolutely. This is where your high-horse ride ends. The supposed basis for morality that New Atheism attempts to concoct is bunk.

You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society. Try as you might, you can only find ways of "scientifically" explaining the things that you were already taught.

I disagree that it has much at all to do with religion. Primitive Hebrew societies stoned young girls who weren't virgins. Modern Christian societies torture and kill children who are accused of witchcraft.

That murder is murder and theft is theft in this country has far more to do with the thoughts of the Enlightenment and the rights of man (which were in direct contradiction to the church at that time) than with Christianity.

2009-07-05 10:20:58 PM

whatshisname: True that. All my Hindu friends have no concept of murder or theft.

They practise infanticide. It's cultural. Forget all that hoo-raw about viability out of the womb, they kill baby girls up to two weeks after being born.

So yes, in your desire to toss out a sarcastic remark, you did speak the truth.

2009-07-05 10:21:30 PM

vertiaset: Don't be silly. Ants are social animals as are bees. There is no morality in nature beyond man and you know it.

This is patently false, and comparing ants and bees to higher mammals is silly.
There are a number of mammals, including chimps, bonobos, baboons, and dolphins that exhibit altruistic behavior such as sharing food or aiding the old/lame/injured without any expectation of reward. Some wolves and birds will raise the young of other family/group members, or even sometimes of other species.

These individual behaviors by themselves may not constitute morality to the degree that we define it (although it is certainly arguable in some cases), but whether a wolf is a moral creature or not isn't the point. The point is that the behaviors and tendencies that form the basis of moral behavior can be an inherited characteristic of a species.

2009-07-05 10:24:25 PM

whatshisname: MorganFreeman: morality is actually completely subjective

Morality is biological. It has evolved.

I know. You took my quote out of context.

2009-07-05 10:25:05 PM

letrole: Either that, or it's each man deciding for himself if murder is murder.

My grandfather was a soldier in WWII. He fought in the Italian campaign. He's said all of eight words to me my entire life about the war. (I was playing a combat flight simulator game and dropped a cluster bomb. He said "The Germans used cluster bombs on us once." I didn't play that game much after that.)

If humans were such cold-blooded killers, soldiers wouldn't come back from war traumatized: They'd have a natural resistance to the sort of bloodshed that's required. Killing other humans isn't natural for people to do. Not feeling remorse afterward is even less natural.

If we were such savages at heart, why would we almost universally feel remorse or trauma?

RevMercutio

2009-07-05 10:25:26 PM

2009-07-05 10:25:54 PM

The Icelander: If we were such savages at heart, why would we almost universally feel remorse or trauma?

Because Jesus loves us all.

2009-07-05 10:26:44 PM

Gawdzila: This is patently false, and comparing ants and bees to higher mammals is silly.

Social insects are often to referred to as superorganisms. They don't make decisions to do something any more than our cells make decisions.

2009-07-05 10:27:20 PM

letrole: whatshisname: True that. All my Hindu friends have no concept of murder or theft.

They practise infanticide. It's cultural. Forget all that hoo-raw about viability out of the womb, they kill baby girls up to two weeks after being born.

So yes, in your desire to toss out a sarcastic remark, you did speak the truth.

And certain Judeo-Christin groups practice genocide of various sorts. Does this mean they have no concept of right or wrong because an imaginary being hasn't told them what's good and what's bad?

2009-07-05 10:27:36 PM

Bootsy

2009-07-05 10:27:49 PM

I'm going to say this once: Unless you're Jewish even YOU don't believe in the G-d you profess to believe in. Last time I checked G-d didn't bang some 14 year old chick giving birth to a demigod. That's Zeus/Thor/Odin/Jupiter/etc/etc/etc... You've got your pantheons mixed up.

What's more, the Atheists are right. For Jews, we have 613 commandments. For non-Jews there are six and none of them involve worshiping our G-d.

"That which is hateful to you, don't do to anyone else. This is the whole of the Law. The rest is commentary. Go study the commentary." - Hillel.

2009-07-05 10:28:06 PM

vertiaset: I get my ethical grounding from a lifetime of study of ethics starting from the pre-Socratics, the words of Christ especially the beatitudes, St. Paul's Hymn to Love, through the teachings of the various sages of the Axial age, the Bahavagad Gita, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Zoroaster, Lao Tze, Confucius, Gautama Siddhattha, St. Augustine, the medieval Humanist tradition, in particular Peter Abelard, then Baruch Spinoza, Martin Luther, the Transcendentalists, in particular Thoreau and Emerson, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche and finally the many fine thinkers of the New Humanist movement of the 21st century.

And yet primitive societies that have no such knowledge nevertheless figure out that murder is wrong.

As far as atheists abandoning reality - that's just unsubstantiated garbage. They may have values different than yours, but most have a sense of morals in my experience.

2009-07-05 10:28:38 PM

The Icelander: That murder is murder and theft is theft in this country has far more to do with the thoughts of the Enlightenment and the rights of man (which were in direct contradiction to the church at that time) than with Christianity.

Yes, we've already established the influence of the Enlightenment, to the degree that you assume its high minded ideas run through the heads of savages. Where do eggs come from?

2009-07-05 10:28:42 PM

MorganFreeman: whatshisname: MorganFreeman: morality is actually completely subjective

Morality is biological. It has evolved.

I know. You took my quote out of context.

Sorry.

2009-07-05 10:28:45 PM

vertiaset: I get my ethical grounding from a lifetime of study of ethics starting from the pre-Socratics,

But if you need Jesus to have ethics, how could the pre-Socratics have ethics?

\This thinking lead to the destruction of quite a bit of knowledge

inglixthemad

2009-07-05 10:30:23 PM

Cerebral Ballsy: aselene: This kind of hate speech wouldn't be tolerated if the roles were reversed. The ACLU would already be suing to have it covered over with the Muslim crescent. It just goes to show the double standard between atheist speech and religious speech.

Bullsh*t, you douche.

The old "You're going to hell" boogeyman billboard. These are ALL OVER here in Florida. The one thing atheist billboards don't do is lie and tell you you're going to some made up place after death.

Now with working html goodness and going to hell badness

My response is to people that spout that sh*t is:

Jesus died for somebody's sins not mine. I'll take responsibility thank you. If that means your omnipotent god is going to cast me into perdition for all eternity, then that is what will happen, but I will not join a religion where someone too dumb to hit the floor with a hat is saved. I have standards and, if there is a God (big G here), I hope that he does too. I'd rather burn in Hell than hang around with intellectual inferiors that are incapable of taking responsibility for their own sins without relying on a 2000 year old get out of jail free card.

The real nozzles usually sputter incoherently for a few seconds.

2009-07-05 10:31:41 PM

letrole: Yes, we've already established the influence of the Enlightenment, to the degree that you assume its high minded ideas run through the heads of savages.

You're putting words into my mouth.

I'm asserting that all people, regardless of religion or upbringing, and including quite a few social mammals, have innate altruism. They may not know about the universal rights of man, but they know it's not right to hit other people and feel remorse over it.

Hell, my 21 month old daughter knows it's not nice to hit other people, and she's never even been in a church.

2009-07-05 10:32:48 PM

inglixthemad: Jesus died for somebody's sins not mine. I'll take responsibility thank you. If that means your omnipotent god is going to cast me into perdition for all eternity, then that is what will happen, but I will not join a religion where someone too dumb to hit the floor with a hat is saved. I have standards and, if there is a God (big G here), I hope that he does too. I'd rather burn in Hell than hang around with intellectual inferiors that are incapable of taking responsibility for their own sins without relying on a 2000 year old get out of jail free card.

You'd like this song ^{(^)}

TheAgeOfEgos

2009-07-05 10:32:52 PM

The Icelander: letrole: Either that, or it's each man deciding for himself if murder is murder.

My grandfather was a soldier in WWII. He fought in the Italian campaign. He's said all of eight words to me my entire life about the war. (I was playing a combat flight simulator game and dropped a cluster bomb. He said "The Germans used cluster bombs on us once." I didn't play that game much after that.)

If humans were such cold-blooded killers, soldiers wouldn't come back from war traumatized: They'd have a natural resistance to the sort of bloodshed that's required. Killing other humans isn't natural for people to do. Not feeling remorse afterward is even less natural.

If we were such savages at heart, why would we almost universally feel remorse or trauma?

Thanks for sharing, seriously.

It reminds me of the many documented stories of WWI, where the soldiers rarely fired on each other (Even when walking above the trenches) for fear of return fire. There was an unspoken 'truce' for many of those men and even spoken for others (One story involves groups apologizing if their artillery got too close!).

It's called Tit for Tat altruism and is well documented both biologically and in software as an evolutionary stable trait.

I think you combine the naturally occurring Tit for Tat with the sentient nature of the brain (The ability to simulate your existence in others shoes)...and morality seems the natural result. It seems to take tribalism in the form of religion, nationalism, gender, race, etc to override.

/I'm sure an evolutionary psychologist can step up and point out my flaws while illuminating it more in depth

2009-07-05 10:33:16 PM

letrole: The Icelander: That murder is murder and theft is theft in this country has far more to do with the thoughts of the Enlightenment and the rights of man (which were in direct contradiction to the church at that time) than with Christianity.

Yes, we've already established the influence of the Enlightenment, to the degree that you assume its high minded ideas run through the heads of savages. Where do eggs come from?

Who represents the "savages" you're talking about? All people? Non-Christians? I mean those "high-minded" ideas were a long time coming, and I don't think anyone here is trying to claim that morality hasn't evolved except you.

2009-07-05 10:34:13 PM

I hate religious morons.

You can't prove or disprove God, so if they say that God exists for them they are free to do whatever stupid, barbaric, ignorant, and savage things their god tells them to do. And the rest of us are forced to tolerate them.

2009-07-05 10:34:18 PM

The Icelander: If we were such savages at heart, why would we almost universally feel remorse or trauma?

That's not universal. Excuse me fullcaps:

STOP ASSIGNING WESTERN THOUGHT TO THE DEFAULT STATE OF MAN.

2009-07-05 10:35:01 PM

letrole,

You can't prove that you believe in God.

/checkmate.

2009-07-05 10:35:18 PM

letrole: STOP ASSIGNING WESTERN THOUGHT TO THE DEFAULT STATE OF MAN.

Says the guy doing just that.

2009-07-05 10:35:44 PM

I'm a misanthrope.

Farker Soze

2009-07-05 10:36:30 PM

shiat dude, I drive by a billboard saying "JESUS is the only way to God" weekly. You don't see me doing more than rolling my eyes.

"I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.' How are we going to make it? Look at our schools, everyday. Everyday there's something going on. Kids are out here killing each other, kids are here using drugs. Who else are they going to believe in?"

I hear Baal used to keep the kids in line and the biremes running on time. Why not give him a second chance?

2009-07-05 10:36:47 PM

letrole: The Icelander: If we were such savages at heart, why would we almost universally feel remorse or trauma?

That's not universal. Excuse me fullcaps:

STOP ASSIGNING WESTERN THOUGHT TO THE DEFAULT STATE OF MAN.

Stop assuming there is one "default" state for man, especially in this day and age.

2009-07-05 10:37:20 PM

TheAgeOfEgos: It reminds me of the many documented stories of WWI, where the soldiers rarely fired on each other (Even when walking above the trenches) for fear of return fire. There was an unspoken 'truce' for many of those men and even spoken for others (One story involves groups apologizing if their artillery got too close!).

The Christmas Truce ^{(^)} is probably one of my favorite stories about WWI.

Here you have two groups of young men, far from home, sitting in the mud and shooting at each other. Then one side hears the sound of the other side singing "Silent Night" drifting over no-man's land. The next day, they climb out of their trenches. They share their meager rations and have a game of soccer. Someone even finds a Christmas tree.

The following Christmas, the order came down from the commanders of both sides that the officers were to shoot anyone who even thought about taking time out from killing the enemy to humanize them. They were going to shoot their own men for not wanting to shoot their enemy.

It seems that if you don't think of your enemy as a faceless other, you have a hard time shooting them. Funny thing for "savages" to have to deal with.

sabremkg

2009-07-05 10:37:27 PM

Alright we need a three party system here! Were all the satanist at??? hollar!!!!

br0g

2009-07-05 10:37:44 PM

FitzShivering: Wenchmaster: genner: What happens to people who don't have kids?

We have more disposable income.

Depends how many pets you have. I'm pretty sure one of our cats has officially cost more than a child this year. :)

I'm pretty sure you're doing something wrong...

2009-07-05 10:38:13 PM

The Icelander: Gawdzila: This is patently false, and comparing ants and bees to higher mammals is silly.

Social insects are often to referred to as superorganisms. They don't make decisions to do something any more than our cells make decisions.

Indeed, in fact I saw a demonstration of a swarm of very simple robots that had very simple behavior instructions. When they interact with each other they can collectively perform organized tasks despite the fact that none of them, individually, has any concept of the goal that they are accomplishing, much less how to accomplish it or why.

2009-07-05 10:38:20 PM

letrole: That's not universal.

You're right. Religious zealots often feel no remorse or trauma.

Befuddled

2009-07-05 10:38:34 PM

If you need a reason for an atheist to want a moral and just society, there's always self-perservation. I'd rather live in a society where the norm was respect and tolerance for others than a society where everyone is a cutthroat backstabber waiting to shaft someone for a quick buck. It's way too much effort to keep looking over one's shoulder, it's better to get others to not want to do harm.

Ow My Balls

2009-07-05 10:38:41 PM

We're not going to escape our own solar system, are we?

2009-07-05 10:39:20 PM

sabremkg: Alright we need a three party system here! Were all the satanist at??? hollar!!!!

Could I get some more beer in my baby skull please?
*tap* *tap*

Ahem, where were we?

2009-07-05 10:40:01 PM

vertiaset: You and I are not in disagreement. Altruism is the genesis of morality but it is not morality. Only humans, with their ability to see themselves as separate and distinct from the rest of creation and hence with free will, can be moral or immoral. There is no such thing as an immoral chimpanzee or dolphin. That is just plain silly and I cannot believe that anyone of even moderate intelligence would make such a claim.

Argumentum ad yoursilly. Very effective.

drjekel_mrhyde

2009-07-05 10:40:30 PM

cheshirecatsmileyface: As a black person and a Christian, that doesn't bother me in the least. You don't have to believe in God to be a good person. But maybe that's because my faith isn't contingent on everybody else believing the same thing. Or maybe I just know how to mind my own damn business. *finger snap*headshake*

Hey there
/Third black person I seen here besides myself

2009-07-05 10:40:38 PM

nmathew01

2009-07-05 10:41:10 PM

vertiaset: nmathew01

vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil". Are these universal or do they vary from person to person or society to society?

Mind telling me where you get yours? No sarcasm intended.

Well, I guess that is a fair enough question.

I get my ethical grounding from a lifetime of study of ethics starting from the pre-Socratics, the words of Christ especially the beatitudes, St. Paul's Hymn to Love, through the teachings of the various sages of the Axial age, the Bahavagad Gita, Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Zoroaster, Lao Tze, Confucius, Gautama Siddhattha, St. Augustine, the medieval Humanist tradition, in particular Peter Abelard, then Baruch Spinoza, Martin Luther, the Transcendentalists, in particular Thoreau and Emerson, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche and finally the many fine thinkers of the New Humanist movement of the 21st century.

It is constantly evolving and undergoing refinement as I gain in maturity, insight and wisdom.

I am sure I have a lot yet to learn.

A fine response. Given that you did not simply point to a book claiming specific revelation, and that you're working things out as best you can, do you believe that we need a deity or otherworldly power to help us out, or can we figure things out amongst ourselves?

sorry about the run-on.

Ugg, 14 minutes between your post and mine. Sorry, but it looks like I'm playing get ready for the week too much to actually take part in a discussion.

2009-07-05 10:42:21 PM

sabremkg: Alright we need a three party system here! Were all the satanist at??? hollar!!!!

I'm a misanthrope. Does that count?

crazy_gaijin

2009-07-05 10:43:39 PM

Brainmeat: letrole: MorganFreeman: My point is that apart from God the God I believe in

So substitute whatever deity or religion you choose. You end up with somebody saying "because I said so". Either that, or it's each man deciding for himself if murder is murder.

Reality is ruled by majority.

So, back when mostly everyone believed the earth was flat, the center of the solar system, et al, it was actually so?

2009-07-05 10:46:58 PM

drjekel_mrhyde: cheshirecatsmileyface: As a black person and a Christian, that doesn't bother me in the least. You don't have to believe in God to be a good person. But maybe that's because my faith isn't contingent on everybody else believing the same thing. Or maybe I just know how to mind my own damn business. *finger snap*headshake*

Hey there
/Third black person I seen here besides myself

Oh, I'm not black, my Fark handle is.

p.s. Where exactly are the Christians like you hiding out? They're kind of getting overshadowed by the loons these days.

2009-07-05 10:47:49 PM

vertiaset: When you read a post do you actually READ it or do you just hear your own voice clamoring in your head? Of course there are other sources of moral grounding than religion. That was the point of my post. I agree with the author of the billboard atheists SHOULD adopt an ethical system to replace the one they have rejected when they rejected faith.

Then why the need for religion? Perhaps believing in unicorns would lead to even greater moral purity than belief in God. Has anyone done a controlled study?

Moral relativism and nihilistic amorality are both strange and dangerous world views.

Perhaps so, perhaps not, but what do they have to do with the price of bread in Moscow? These worldviews are orthogonal to the theism/atheism axis.

bravian

2009-07-05 10:49:27 PM

Befuddled: If you need a reason for an atheist to want a moral and just society, there's always self-perservation. I'd rather live in a society where the norm was respect and tolerance for others than a society where everyone is a cutthroat backstabber waiting to shaft someone for a quick buck. It's way too much effort to keep looking over one's shoulder, it's better to get others to not want to do harm.

Finally someone said it. There is no benefit to going in and biatching out or otherwise causing harm to the poor kid at the sandwich place nearby or co-workers at the office or in my family (no matter how much i want to). I don't need a magic faerie creature in the sky detailed from a badly written book put together by a committee to teach me these concepts.

2009-07-05 10:50:05 PM

letrole: The Icelander: But it's also not as simple as letrole is making it out to be, either. And I think his "The only thing that keeps us from bashing open each other's skulls and feasting on the goo inside is religion" hypothesis is the one that's the furthest from reality.

I never said such a thing. My point is that apart from God, there is no right and wrong, only results. I presented an example of men in the wild state who didn't have a full-blown sense of Western Ethics, as many "modern thinkers" seem to assume they would.

That's not your "point". It's not a "point" at all. That's your opinion, and it is an unsupported, bare assertion. You have failed to demonstrate how the particular social construct we call "religion" is any more efficacious than any other in regulating human behavior - and in fact, you haven't even tried. You seem to expect the rest of us to accept it as axiomatic - which we don't. You have, essentially placed yourself in the same position as the "angry atheist" who insists that religion is somehow unique in providing an excuse for general human intolerance and assholishness - because he says it is.
You keep saying it, but offer no supporting argument or evidence. At this point, I think I'm reasonable to conclude that you have none to offer.
The statement that "apart from God, there is no right or wrong", epistemologically isn't even wrong - it's gibberish. Nonsense. You may as well say "Apart from bowling ball, there is no up or down"
It's an attempt to link two unrelated concepts with... well, nothing but the fact that you insist that they are linked.

2009-07-05 10:50:32 PM

crazy_gaijin: So, back when mostly everyone believed the earth was flat, the center of the solar system, et al, it was actually so?

Lets have an experiment. Everyone in the world should believe I'm banging Megan Fox and Sasha Grey.

Please.

Ding Dong Seven

2009-07-05 10:53:49 PM

G2V: ...I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

The term Free Thinkers has been around for ages. It means, "think for yourself" - as in, don't listen to the dude in the big pointy hat; make your own mind up.

The argument "Yeah, that'll win people over" has been played out. Atheists have been bending over backwards for far too long, and it has gotten us nowhere. If calling a spade a spade fails to win anyone over, well - fark 'em.

I'm sick and farking tired of being labeled a "militant" or "fundamentalist" atheist, merely because I do not believe that there's an invisible, omnipotent, omniscient creature around.

A significant portion of vegetarians are assholes. But I've never had one call me a militant meat eater. From this, one can deduce that Christians are, on average, bigger assholes than the worst vegetarian.

zamboni

2009-07-05 10:54:35 PM

More tolerant christians

themishmash.typepad.com

/hot as hell

siva

2009-07-05 10:56:18 PM

Christianity... Islam... My two least favorite religions. You know who started that shiat? The JEWS! Damn Jews, always causing trouble.

2009-07-05 10:57:03 PM

2009-07-05 10:57:28 PM

vertiaset: Altruism is the genesis of morality but it is not morality. Only humans, with their ability to see themselves as separate and distinct from the rest of creation and hence with free will, can be moral or immoral.

But what makes you think that this ability of ours is not also granted purely by our biology? It seems to be to be a product of the ability for abstract thought, something that is due to our unusually large association cortex.

vertiaset: There is no such thing as an immoral chimpanzee or dolphin. That is just plain silly and I cannot believe that anyone of even moderate intelligence would make such a claim.

Are you so sure that a dolphin or a gorilla is unable to see itself as an individual free agent? I think we have not plumbed the depths of dolphin intelligence sufficiently to say this for certain. Gorillas that have been taught how to communicate via sign language, such as Coco, have made limited expressions of abstract thought and expressed compassion and empathy for other animals.

Perhaps this isn't enough, but the dividing line is not a particularly clear one, and your patronizing tone towards those who consider the question is not warranted. Considering the number of characteristics that we once considered "purely human" that seem to show up in other animals, we may not be quite as unique as you believe. The difference between a human and a dolphin may be large, but it is a question of degree, not quality. Dolphins have an association cortex in their brains too. If it evolves to be a bit larger we might be obligated to start negotiating with them for tuna rights ;)

2009-07-05 10:57:51 PM

beoswulf: Replace Muslim with fundamentalist Christian, line these up leading to South Carolina...sign I can agree with.

So now you're upset with the policy that Mecca is for Muslims only--so much so that you're threadjacking an Atheism thread with some obtuse mention of South Carolina? Lots of places in the world are off-limits to many humans outside of a group. Why do you care?

2009-07-05 11:01:06 PM

Mordant: I think we're seeing the game come to an end here, unless someone is just really cranky today.

Huh? WTF does that mean?

2009-07-05 11:01:52 PM

Ding Dong Seven: A significant portion of vegetarians are assholes. But I've never had one call me a militant meat eater.

Then you don't know that many of them. I do and I have been. No one is calling atheists inherently Fundamentalist. Its when they start telling others they're absolutely irrational or sub-human or complete slobbering idiots just because they happen not to agree with atheism. That earns an F-bomb, regardless of your ideology.

2009-07-05 11:03:39 PM

Gawdzila: vertiaset: Altruism is the genesis of morality but it is not morality. Only humans, with their ability to see themselves as separate and distinct from the rest of creation and hence with free will, can be moral or immoral.

But what makes you think that this ability of ours is not also granted purely by our biology? It seems to be to be a product of the ability for abstract thought, something that is due to our unusually large association cortex.

vertiaset: There is no such thing as an immoral chimpanzee or dolphin. That is just plain silly and I cannot believe that anyone of even moderate intelligence would make such a claim.

Are you so sure that a dolphin or a gorilla is unable to see itself as an individual free agent? I think we have not plumbed the depths of dolphin intelligence sufficiently to say this for certain. Gorillas that have been taught how to communicate via sign language, such as Coco, have made limited expressions of abstract thought and expressed compassion and empathy for other animals.

Perhaps this isn't enough, but the dividing line is not a particularly clear one, and your patronizing tone towards those who consider the question is not warranted. Considering the number of characteristics that we once considered "purely human" that seem to show up in other animals, we may not be quite as unique as you believe. The difference between a human and a dolphin may be large, but it is a question of degree, not quality. Dolphins have an association cortex in their brains too. If it evolves to be a bit larger we might be obligated to start negotiating with them for tuna rights ;)

Elephants and African Grey Parrots understand the concept of self (ESPECIALLY THE LATTER), we should really be working on uplifting the grey parrots to full sentience by selective breeding.

2009-07-05 11:04:30 PM

crazy_gaijin: Brainmeat: letrole: MorganFreeman: My point is that apart from God the God I believe in

So substitute whatever deity or religion you choose. You end up with somebody saying "because I said so". Either that, or it's each man deciding for himself if murder is murder.

Reality is ruled by majority.

So, back when mostly everyone believed the earth was flat, the center of the solar system, et al, it was actually so?

For intensive purposes, it was. If you disagreed with it, without proof, you were considered dim-witted, ignorant, or insane.

Nothing really is, until it is proven. An example would be global warming. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Which is true? The majority controls the truth until proof is made otherwise.

tony41454

2009-07-05 11:06:01 PM

I'm sick of these atheists pushing their godless ideology down our throats. If you want to go to hell, fine, but keep it to yourself.

2009-07-05 11:06:48 PM

rebussohal

2009-07-05 11:07:27 PM

The Icelander: You'd like this song (^)

I prefer Down, Down, Down To Mephisto's Cafe

MaxRebo

2009-07-05 11:09:15 PM

Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

One of the stupidest attampts at an aphorism I ever read. If bald had NOTHING to do with hair at all I might have some reason to agree with the analogy. It almost sounds smart until you realize how stupid an argument it is.

Let's not use any analogies so they don't confuse the issue.

Not believing in any god is NOT THE SAME as believing there is no god. NO ONE CAN PROVE god exists or does not exist (not in this world).

Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

2009-07-05 11:10:35 PM

letrole: You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society.

Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. (new window)

Also, you might be interested to know Aristotle was no monotheist, but nonetheless devised a significant branch of ethics completely divorced from religion. Kantian ethics does not rely on a "god" and neither does Utilitarianism. For someone who likes to talk a big intellectual game and make sweeping claims about morality, you haven't done any of your homework. Of course, for you that's par for the course. I've never seen you act otherwise. And finally, there is no such thing as a "Judeo-Christian" society in the U.S. Jews been about 2% of the American population and not much more since the beginning. The Talmud is not a major influence on American culture as a whole.

2009-07-05 11:13:36 PM

MaxRebo: Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

Atheism is many things, but cannot possibly be a religion. Simply saying "NO!" is not an ethos of any kind. Furthermore, all religions have rituals and a symbolic language. Even non-religious ideologies, like Freudian psychoanalysis and American nationalism have rituals and a symbolic language. Atheism doesn't. It has no positive content. Secular Humanism is a better candidate for your argument but has no rituals either.

2009-07-05 11:15:04 PM

Ding Dong Seven: don't listen to the dude in the big pointy hat

I'd listen to this broad in this pointy hat.

keeleyhazellworld.com

/pointy

2009-07-05 11:15:08 PM

MaxRebo: Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

One of the stupidest attampts at an aphorism I ever read. If bald had NOTHING to do with hair at all I might have some reason to agree with the analogy. It almost sounds smart until you realize how stupid an argument it is.

Let's not use any analogies so they don't confuse the issue.

Not believing in any god is NOT THE SAME as believing there is no god. NO ONE CAN PROVE god exists or does not exist (not in this world).

Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

There is no God. Atheism is not a religion. Believe what you like. I won't convert anyone, nor encourage anyone to convert to atheism. Atheist don't allow themselves the benefit of relief given by religion that comes from an ultimate forgiveness and final positive end. My proof for not believing in God, is human history. All of it. All good, all bad, all love, all death. All the same. With or without a God.

2009-07-05 11:15:18 PM

JQPublic

I'll have you know that is my current favorite religion-topic comic. I have a copy on my office door.

2009-07-05 11:15:26 PM

MaxRebo: Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

One of the stupidest attampts at an aphorism I ever read. If bald had NOTHING to do with hair at all I might have some reason to agree with the analogy. It almost sounds smart until you realize how stupid an argument it is.

Let's not use any analogies so they don't confuse the issue.

Not believing in any god is NOT THE SAME as believing there is no god. NO ONE CAN PROVE god exists or does not exist (not in this world).

Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

So not believing in stuff that doesn't exist is a religion?
Unicorns?
Leprechauns?
1+1=3?
Flat Earth?
Geocentrism?

Those must be religions too.

2009-07-05 11:16:18 PM

Agreed. I'm so sick of that stupid argument. There's no dogma, tenets, holy book, deity to worship, etc. It's like calling not believing in aliens a religion, and it's stupid.

Subtrul

2009-07-05 11:19:26 PM

vertiaset: No, it comes from the fact that we're social animals. Other social animals demonstrate morality as well. Dolphins will protect swimmers from sharks and save shipwrecked sailors. Female wolves will raise abandoned human children as their own.

Don't be silly. Ants are social animals as are bees. There is no morality in nature beyond man and you know it.

Ants and bees are not animals stupid, the degree of social conscience depends on the degree of neurological complexity.

2009-07-05 11:19:49 PM

Somacandra: JQPublic

I'll have you know that is my current favorite religion-topic comic. I have a copy on my office door.

I have several on my computer. I try to collect real good ones. I've even made a few myself and shown some of my friends. One of my best skewers astrology. A 'psychic' says to an atheist, "I'm an Aries" to which the atheist wryly replies "So was Hitler".

2009-07-05 11:20:40 PM

Brainmeat: For intensive purposes, it was.

I disagree. What about tides and gravity?
Those things affect you, and neither would work if the Earth were flat.

Brainmeat: Nothing really is, until it is proven.

Not really. I think it is useful to make a distinction between what "actually is" and what society treats as correct (which is what you seem to hold up as "what is"). How you're treated by society is dependent on the latter, but everything else depends on the latter.

2009-07-05 11:20:40 PM

vertiaset: A human will react at first instinctively, then will reprocess the sensory information against a catalog of previous events and compare and contrast. Then a human can PROJECT this thought, now removed from actual experience but substituting for it into the future and avoid situations where danger is present and disregard situations where the rustling is just the wind in the leaves.

I've got a sneaking suspicion that in a decade or two, with improved brain scan technology, we will know a lot more about this. Until then, its pretty much pure speculation, albeit educated.

Given that, its probably better to take some certainty out of your proclamations. You simply don't know. Neither do I. Neither does anyone.

2009-07-05 11:20:50 PM

Somacandra: Atheism is many things, but cannot possibly be a religion. Simply saying "NO!" is not an ethos of any kind. Furthermore, all religions have rituals and a symbolic language. Even non-religious ideologies, like Freudian psychoanalysis and American nationalism have rituals and a symbolic language. Atheism doesn't. It has no positive content. Secular Humanism is a better candidate for your argument but has no rituals either.

Saving this for posterity.

yelmrog

2009-07-05 11:21:51 PM

detfrost1:
Elephants and African Grey Parrots understand the concept of self (ESPECIALLY THE LATTER), we should really be working on uplifting the grey parrots to full sentience by selective breeding.

I would love to have a sentient gray parrot for a sidekick when the post-apocalypse comes around.

2009-07-05 11:22:22 PM

vertiaset: The Icelander

vertiaset: I get my ethical grounding from a lifetime of study of ethics starting from the pre-Socratics,

But if you need Jesus to have ethics, how could the pre-Socratics have ethics?

\This thinking lead to the destruction of quite a bit of knowledge

Two things Sport, first you need to switch gears when you go from replying to letrole to me, the simplistic atheist spiel you use with him does not serve you well in a more sophisticated discussion.

Second, if you are going to make statements about what you contend are my beliefs then do me the courtesy of reading my posts in this thread. If you had read them, you would realize that I have stated many times over, starting with my original comment in this thread, that one does not need religion to be moral.

Do these things out of simple courtesy and I will be happy to converse with you.

Well, to refresh, it all started when you posed the "innocent" question of how is is possible for someone to be moral without God.

That's like asking "How is it possible for a black man to be a physicist? I'm not saying it's impossible, mind you, I'm just asking a question."
It implies, primae facie, that there would be some reason to think otherwise.
Why would the question of how an atheist can be a moral being be any more valid than asking how a baseball player can be a moral being? Unless you are asserting that morality and the concept of "god" are somehow intrinsically related - a principle for which you have offered no supporting data.
The question itself rests upon an unsupported, and to a nonbeliever, insulting premise - just as the question of "how" a black man could be a physicist would be unsupported, and insulting to a black man.
You asked: "So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway?"
Who says it "comes from" anywhere? Or that, if it does, it comes from anywhere other than where yours comes from?
When and how did you establish that an "atheist's" morality issues from any other source than your own? Do you think that it does? The question would seem to imply so - but you don't say.
The question is intrinsically dishonest and insulting - and intellectually cowardly.

2009-07-05 11:22:50 PM

Subtrul: Ants and bees are not animals stupid

...someone needs to re-take highschool biology.

RevMercutio

2009-07-05 11:23:16 PM

vertiaset: RevMercutio

vertiaset: I personally like this billboard. It is less a advertisement for atheism than an appeal to atheists to adhere to a moral system. I think this is a good idea.

If you require a religion to make you "good" and give you "morals", you're not a good person.

Do something because it is right, not because you're scared of your deity.

If you are directing that comment to me then clearly you have not been paying attention.

It's more a general statement. You've explained and explored the background behind your morality. Many don't.

2009-07-05 11:23:26 PM

vertiaset: They do not have a sense of self in the way that humans do for the same reason that I cannot play World of Warcraft on my IBM AT. They do not have the hardware to run the software.

Our neocortex serves as its primary function providing us with the ability to think abstractly. It evolved initially as a second line of defense against danger. When confronted with a rustle in the bushes a gazelle will simply run, partly through instinct and partly though remembered experience. A human will react at first instinctively, then will reprocess the sensory information against a catalog of previous events and compare and contrast. Then a human can PROJECT this thought, now removed from actual experience but substituting for it into the future and avoid situations where danger is present and disregard situations where the rustling is just the wind in the leaves.

Right, except the discussion was about gorillas and dolphins which do have the hardware, and display signs of differentiating self all the time. Nice try at the misdirect.

2009-07-05 11:23:45 PM

Reposting this for clarification. Darwin was not averse to religion, and did not automatically assert that natural selection theory interfered with a religious interpretation of the world. Also, its funny this billboard defines atheism this way because one of the key differences between Christianity and its surrounding ancient religions was the Christian insistence on "Creation ex Nihilo." Or "creation of the universe out of nothing." The surrounding Roman Pagans and most others saw this as sheer theological lunacy, and took it for granted that the world was fashioned by the Gods out of pre-existing base material.

MaxRebo

2009-07-05 11:23:51 PM

JQPublic: MaxRebo: Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

One of the stupidest attampts at an aphorism I ever read. If bald had NOTHING to do with hair at all I might have some reason to agree with the analogy. It almost sounds smart until you realize how stupid an argument it is.

Let's not use any analogies so they don't confuse the issue.

Not believing in any god is NOT THE SAME as believing there is no god. NO ONE CAN PROVE god exists or does not exist (not in this world).

Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

So not believing in stuff that doesn't exist is a religion?
Unicorns?
Leprechauns?
1+1=3?
Flat Earth?
Geocentrism?

Those must be religions too.

Not believing is not the same as believing not (read and understand my post before responding next time). Try again. I don't believe in any of those things either, but I don't waste ANY time telling others not to believe in them, or get all pissy about it when I don't get my way.

2009-07-05 11:27:09 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Incorrect; I have a higher level of mutual information with the man than the candle.

letrole: There is no right and wrong, there are only results.

If your choice results in you no longer existing, it was the wrong choice.

letrole: If by killing and stealing you are able to succeed, then you win.

However, these usually have long term drawbacks that make them losing tactics overall.
And you have to remember that THE GAME never ends.

letrole: Survival of the fittest.

However, fitness is tested at levels of society as well as individual. (Actually, since a human is a society of cells, and a cell a society of molecules, the idea that an "individual" can be tested may be Not Even Wrong.)

Khanmots: Well, one could perform a test to see if there is indeed a califlower occupying one's cranial cavity. One might even suspect that the existance of such a califlower would create observable side-affects on one's external behavior...

Very close. The former suggests the sense of "test" as "experiment", which suggests need to take the validity of the experimental method as a primary assumption; let's avoid that. The latter is closer yet by suggesting the sense of competitive testing of an existing data set for the criterion of minimum description length. (The latter is the one I favor.) While again too large to take as a primary, it can be broken down to more basic propositions that are substantially harder to argue with.

Khanmots: How do you know that those don't exist?

Testing by Minimum Description Length Induction again indicates that the formal descriptions for the extant evidence which include such are longer than the conventional alternative describing same; ergo, a unicorn description is not the one most probably correct.

This inference rests on the validity of the Robbins Axioms (or other boolean-constructing equivalent) for inference, self-consistency of the ZF axioms (independent of Choice, and possibly Power Set) or similar, and the assumption that reality and evidence relate by a pattern (recognizable at some ordinal level of hypercomputation). While these premises themselves do rest on nothing but Faith, this is the sum of the Faith required.

Khanmots: I don't believe that either, but again, I have no way of knowing.

The limited endorsement of "one most probably correct" is (as best I can tell) the strongest such endorsement possible within these constraints... which is to say, the furthest we can be said to "know" anything about the "real world".

Including about the cauliflower, never mind the unicorns.

Khanmots: In short, to believe or disbelieve in something whose existence is unknowable requires faith.

Correct.

However, under the least premises of Faith to have the existence of Cauliflower minimally knowable and testable, the existence of God is knowable and testable to the same degree.

Minsky: What leads you to believe that there are people reading your text? Or even that you're posting at all?

That's the current Minimum Description Length hypothesis.

letrole: I find it most amusing that the natural state of man is assumed to be a cooperative form of social altruism. It's not. We are cruel and violent and savage.

The reality is somewhere in between. The altruism of FAIR has limits from INGROUP. When it doesn't, Fark's queue gets submissions about PETA's complaining that Obama really would hurt a fly after all.

theorellior: If this is not the case, then do other species carry these universal characteristics?

HARM (in a slightly different sense than Haidt's) may be universal to life; FAIR and INGROUP are widely observed in the animal kingdom. Something akin to AUTHORITY crops up in numerous mammal species; it would be interesting to survey which. If I recall, however, one of Haidt's articles indicated PURITY/DISGUST is only in the primates, and possibly just humans.

2009-07-05 11:27:09 PM

MorganFreeman: Agreed. I'm so sick of that stupid argument. There's no dogma, tenets, holy book, deity to worship, etc. It's like calling not believing in aliens a religion, and it's stupid.

it all depends on the level of fanaticism (and ignorance)of the individual. At what point does a "non-belief" become the equivalent of a "belief".
- when you insist you're right in a non-falsifiable debate from either side?
- when you discuss it in forums on the internet with other 'non-believers'?
- when you organize around it?
- when you have representation of your non-belief?
- when you seek to 'convert' (for lack of a better word) as many as possible to your philosophical view?
- when some people whom you share this philosophical view (non-belief, insistence in philosophical materialism and naturalism, etc.) want a symbol so they can identify themselves with other people who share the same non-belief?

yeah, you're right, it's a stupid argument. unless the person behind the non-belief is a fanatic (or evangelical) about it. Especially if they think they've got some moral imperative, or elitist mentality around it.

Why people deny that is equally stupid. Just admit they can be as annoying as any religious fanatic and move on. With all due respect and semantic bullshiat by certain people who can't admit that aside....

2009-07-05 11:28:09 PM

Gawdzila: Not really. I think it is useful to make a distinction between what "actually is" and what society treats as correct (which is what you seem to hold up as "what is"). How you're treated by society is dependent on the latter, but everything else depends on the latter.

Actually, yes, as seen through the lens of quantum physics, nothing really is, until it is chosen. So reality is a bleeding edge of consciousness sort of thing, that evolves every microsecond. Or not.

MaxRebo

2009-07-05 11:28:30 PM

Somacandra: -snip- Atheism doesn't. It has no positive content. -snip-

This.

2009-07-05 11:28:32 PM

jso2897: Well, to refresh, it all started when you posed the "innocent" question of how is is possible for someone to be moral without God.

That's like asking "How is it possible for a black man to be a physicist? I'm not saying it's impossible, mind you, I'm just asking a question."
It implies, primae facie, that there would be some reason to think otherwise.
Why would the question of how an atheist can be a moral being be any more valid than asking how a baseball player can be a moral being? Unless you are asserting that morality and the concept of "god" are somehow intrinsically related - a principle for which you have offered no supporting data.
The question itself rests upon an unsupported, and to a nonbeliever, insulting premise - just as the question of "how" a black man could be a physicist would be unsupported, and insulting to a black man.
You asked: "So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway?"
Who says it "comes from" anywhere? Or that, if it does, it comes from anywhere other than where yours comes from?
When and how did you establish that an "atheist's" morality issues from any other source than your own? Do you think that it does? The question would seem to imply so - but you don't say.
The question is intrinsically dishonest and insulting - and intellectually cowardly.

i93.photobucket.com

2009-07-05 11:29:00 PM

Militant Atheists is the term used by religious idiots when they can't win a debate against a smart Atheist.

Godscrack

2009-07-05 11:29:43 PM

sluck604

2009-07-05 11:29:45 PM

ArthGuinness

2009-07-05 11:30:09 PM

heap: Earguy: /actual picture of Big Mama

who charred santa?

I lol'd, thanks for that.

2009-07-05 11:32:12 PM

MaxRebo: JQPublic: MaxRebo: Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

One of the stupidest attampts at an aphorism I ever read. If bald had NOTHING to do with hair at all I might have some reason to agree with the analogy. It almost sounds smart until you realize how stupid an argument it is.

Let's not use any analogies so they don't confuse the issue.

Not believing in any god is NOT THE SAME as believing there is no god. NO ONE CAN PROVE god exists or does not exist (not in this world).

Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

So not believing in stuff that doesn't exist is a religion?
Unicorns?
Leprechauns?
1+1=3?
Flat Earth?
Geocentrism?

Those must be religions too.

Not believing is not the same as believing not (read and understand my post before responding next time). Try again. I don't believe in any of those things either, but I don't waste ANY time telling others not to believe in them, or get all pissy about it when I don't get my way.

I don't believe any of those things either. And I don't consider my disbelief to be a religion, either. I can't turn a blind eye when a large segment of our population wants to legislate their instruction in public schools as "teaching the controversy" and mandating school children to take a daily loyalty oath to them, or grant billions of dollars per year into groups of people that believe those, etc. Call it being pissy.

2009-07-05 11:32:49 PM

Example of Christchuckers forcing their religion down someone's throat. This time an person in the military, an ATHEIST in the military. (new window)

2009-07-05 11:34:46 PM

kerpal32: MorganFreeman: Agreed. I'm so sick of that stupid argument. There's no dogma, tenets, holy book, deity to worship, etc. It's like calling not believing in aliens a religion, and it's stupid.

it all depends on the level of fanaticism (and ignorance)of the individual. At what point does a "non-belief" become the equivalent of a "belief".
- when you insist you're right in a non-falsifiable debate from either side?
- when you discuss it in forums on the internet with other 'non-believers'?
- when you organize around it?
- when you have representation of your non-belief?
- when you seek to 'convert' (for lack of a better word) as many as possible to your philosophical view?
- when some people whom you share this philosophical view (non-belief, insistence in philosophical materialism and naturalism, etc.) want a symbol so they can identify themselves with other people who share the same non-belief?

yeah, you're right, it's a stupid argument. unless the person behind the non-belief is a fanatic (or evangelical) about it. Especially if they think they've got some moral imperative, or elitist mentality around it.

Why people deny that is equally stupid. Just admit they can be as annoying as any religious fanatic and move on. With all due respect and semantic bullshiat by certain people who can't admit that aside....

I agree, but the requirements posted are misleading. Do people organize around atheism? Sure, people with shared ideas of any sort organize around them. They discuss them on internet forums. But I don't know any that want a particular symbol or are seeking "converts" per se. It's just not something non-believers are known for doing. I like discussing this stuff, but I'm not particularly invested in other people walking away from it totally agreeing with me.

Cornelius Dribble

2009-07-05 11:35:13 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

A troll by any other name would smell as rank...

2009-07-05 11:39:54 PM

detfrost1: Christchuckers

Really? Christ-chucker?

MorganFreeman: I like discussing this stuff, but I'm not particularly invested in other people walking away from it totally agreeing with me.

i2.photobucket.com

2009-07-05 11:40:14 PM

madblader: Militant Atheists is the term used by religious idiots when they can't win a debate against a smart Atheist.

Oh snap!

Jeffrey.Rodriguez

2009-07-05 11:40:45 PM

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

I'm not aware of anyone killing anyone else over the tooth fairy. To say nothing of the lesser trespasses on the individual's rights.

2009-07-05 11:41:25 PM

Cornelius Dribble: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

A troll by any other name would smell as rank...

What if one puts the man and the candle into the box with Schrodinger's Cat?

/fine line between science and homicide. Who would know?

2009-07-05 11:41:35 PM

Jeffrey.Rodriguez: I'm not aware of anyone killing anyone else over the tooth fairy.

You've never met small children.

2009-07-05 11:41:40 PM

Gawdzila: Brainmeat: For intensive purposes, it was.

I disagree. What about tides and gravity?
Those things affect you, and neither would work if the Earth were flat.

Brainmeat: Nothing really is, until it is proven.

Not really. I think it is useful to make a distinction between what "actually is" and what society treats as correct (which is what you seem to hold up as "what is"). How you're treated by society is dependent on the latter, but everything else depends on the latter.

What is true and what is perceived to be true can be fundamentally different, and when they disagree with one another, what is true is still true and what is believed to true is also true, to the person who believes it. It is like arguing politics on fark, one side believes what they want based on their evidence, the other side does the same to their point of view. Both look like warglble to each other. My point was, which I guess I stated poorly, that even a well argued point, based in reality and proven by whatever science is necessary, can still be considered by the majority to be incorrect, because they choose not to believe it. Once the majority follows the science and proofs, can it be considered to be seen as true, since although it was actually true, it was not thought so by the masses. I think I mucked it up quite a bit and do apologize for any confusion. I think the only further way to clarify would be to tell you that we have always been at war with East Asia.

/I appreciate your conversation
//Not snark

2009-07-05 11:42:03 PM

Cornelius Dribble: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

A troll by any other name would smell as rank...

Yeah - but at least he has the balls to come out and say what he means, and not cloak it in phony "questions".

2009-07-05 11:44:07 PM

JQPublic: What if one puts the man and the candle into the box with Schrodinger's Cat?

Pussy death thought experiment!!!

snitramc

2009-07-05 11:45:04 PM

As soon as this thread becomes longer than the Steve McNair one I will surely do a mandatory facepalm
------------------------------------------------------------------
There is a Steve McNair thread?

2009-07-05 11:46:00 PM

MorganFreeman: It's like calling not believing in aliens a religion, and it's stupid.

Well, if not believing in aliens isn't a religion, then why do these antialienists insist on ridiculing us true believers? Why do you have to mock us?

The saucer people WILL smite you for your blasphemy. And when you stand before the throne of the Supreme Lizard Person begging for your life, don't say I didn't warn you.

Armandeus

2009-07-05 11:47:58 PM

I've heard all these arguments a hundred times before, so I've come here for the funny pictures. More funny pictures!

quakesteak

2009-07-05 11:49:35 PM

Earguy: After seeing the billboard, Team of Life community activist Essie "Big Mama" Reed brought her students out to protest it Wednesday afternoon.

Oh, no, you got Big Mama upset.

/actual picture of Big Mama

SHE'S upset about a sign that essentially says "be good for goodness' sake"?!

/santa dress

2009-07-05 11:50:10 PM

Armandeus: I've heard all these arguments a hundred times before, so I've come here for the funny pictures. More funny pictures!

I second the motion.

/and the sentiment

2009-07-05 11:50:15 PM

Armandeus: I've heard all these arguments a hundred times before, so I've come here for the funny pictures. More funny pictures!

whorechurch.files.wordpress.com

Hot.

2009-07-05 11:51:23 PM

2009-07-05 11:51:47 PM

vertiaset: Really? So, either you are saying that Dolphins have a neocortex, that they have an equivalent structure or the neocortex is not the seat of self. Which is it? In any case it will be news to the field of neuroscience the world over. Maybe a link or two would help us understand your earth shattering pronouncements.

I'm a little bored, so I'll argue it your way.

Really? So you're saying that gorillas' haven't learned international sign language and communicated all the emotions associated with the concept of self? I'm sure the scientific community awaits your findings on this alternate reality. Please provide a link, or just wish really hard, and I'm sure you'll be rewarded.

See? I can be a lowbrow smartass too.

StupidPopMediaReference

2009-07-05 11:51:48 PM

"Religion has convinced people that there is an invisible man living in the sky, who watches everything you do for every minute of every day.

And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things that he doesn't want you to do.

If you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place of burning and fire and smoke and anguish for you to live forever and suffer and burn and scream until the end of TIME!!!

But he loves you." George Carlin

2009-07-05 11:52:14 PM

vertiaset: They do not have a sense of self in the way that humans do for the same reason that I cannot play World of Warcraft on my IBM AT. They do not have the hardware to run the software.

Yes but, as with your IBM AT, it isn't that they are missing some essential piece of hardware so much as it is that the hardware they have isn't quite up to snuff. That doesn't mean it can't run some facsimile of WoW though.

I might also point out that we don't exactly know everything about brains (although we do know a lot), and we are still often surprised by the capabilities and behaviors of some animals. I'm not suggesting that a dolphin is like a person. What I am suggesting is that we don't know the capabilities of their hardware exactly, and it would be a mistake to be too sure in our assumptions about what they do or do not think.

vertiaset: Our neocortex serves as its primary function providing us with the ability to think abstractly.

You're mistaken.
The neocortex refers to the six-layered arrangement of neurons covering the entirety of the cerebral hemispheres. ALL mammals have a neocortex. Neocortex covers all areas of the brain (except the older brain structures such as the hippocampus which are covered in the three-layered archicortex), including areas not related to abstract thought, such as primary motor cortex.

As for your explanation of human behavior, I am well aware of how learning and abstract thought work. But your biological explanation is just wrong. As I said, all mammals have neocortex. The part of our brain that allows for abstract thought and information synthesis is called "association cortex". Humans have, compared to overall brain size, a larger association cortex than any other animal, but other animals DO have association cortex.

2009-07-05 11:52:40 PM

madblader: Militant Atheists is the term used by religious idiots when they can't win a debate against a smart Atheist.

or, more likely, it's used to describe anti-theistic hate rhetoric and behaviour by some atheists, and frustration a gnostic atheist feels when he / she realizes they can no more prove their philosophical position than any gnostic theist but insist on continuing to argue with everyone about it.

BTW - I'm really getting a laugh out of this and similar threads while reading excerpts of Hawking's essay addressing Fermi's paradox and colonizing other planets through the equivalent of intelligent design from his Life in the Universe lecture series. (circa 2007)

http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=4487687 (pops)

2009-07-05 11:53:07 PM

bartink: Armandeus: I've heard all these arguments a hundred times before, so I've come here for the funny pictures. More funny pictures!

Hot.

Now, you see, you have raised a far deeper and more troubling question than any so far addressed here - namely: "Who the hell dresses their baby up like a SANDWICH?"

2009-07-05 11:53:49 PM

eraser8: MorganFreeman: It's like calling not believing in aliens a religion, and it's stupid.

Well, if not believing in aliens isn't a religion, then why do these antialienists insist on ridiculing us true believers? Why do you have to mock us?

The saucer people WILL smite you for your blasphemy. And when you stand before the throne of the Supreme Lizard Person begging for your life, don't say I didn't warn you.

www.iconocast.com

StupidPopMediaReference

2009-07-05 11:54:37 PM

jso2897: bartink: Armandeus: I've heard all these arguments a hundred times before, so I've come here for the funny pictures. More funny pictures!

Hot.

Now, you see, you have raised a far deeper and more troubling question than any so far addressed here - namely: "Who the hell dresses their baby up like a SANDWICH?"

I can't answer that question but I can raise yet another: Would someone please pass the mustard?

TigerStar

2009-07-05 11:55:05 PM

I find it interesting that the Communist Chinese, the Fundamentalist Muslims and the Fundamentalist Christians agree on so many issues, but none of them like one another.

2009-07-05 11:55:46 PM

bartink: JQPublic: What if one puts the man and the candle into the box with Schrodinger's Cat?

Pussy death thought experiment!!!

you've changed the outcome just talking about it.

www.theage.com.au

2009-07-05 11:56:42 PM

versiaset's profile pic:

farm2.static.flickr.com

2009-07-05 11:56:44 PM

jso2897: Now, you see, you have raised a far deeper and more troubling question than any so far addressed here - namely: "Who the hell dresses their baby up like a SANDWICH?"

I am ashamed to say at one point my child may have been dressed as some form of berry for Halloween. That's all I will say.

2009-07-05 11:58:29 PM

kerpal32: you've changed the outcome just talking about it.

If only that were more true.

If you locked me in a box with Selma Hayek, when would we be considered to have consummated the relationship?

I'm guessing something approaching infinity.

2009-07-05 11:59:45 PM

TigerStar: I find it interesting that the Communist Chinese, the Fundamentalist Muslims and the Fundamentalist Christians agree on so many issues, but none of them like one another.

you'd be surprised at the number of things they have in common.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_religion (pops)

as well as the similarities to various theories under physical cosmology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology (pops)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_cosmology (pops)

2009-07-06 12:00:32 AM

2009-07-06 12:00:37 AM

Gawdzila: vertiaset: They do not have a sense of self in the way that humans do for the same reason that I cannot play World of Warcraft on my IBM AT. They do not have the hardware to run the software...[snip]

I feel the need for an oh snap pic, but I have none amusing enough that I can find at work right now...

2009-07-06 12:02:31 AM

MAAG

2009-07-06 12:03:11 AM

Is this the lake of fire?
http://seds.org/hst/ngc4261.html

LouDobbsAwaaaay

2009-07-06 12:03:21 AM

Either God had reasons to make actions good or evil, or he had no reasons.

If God had no reasons to make actions good or evil, then all morality is completely arbitrary. It is random chance that rape, murder, and theft are evil acts and kindness, charity, and honesty are good acts.

If God had reasons to make actions good or evil, then those actions are good or evil because of those reasons, and not because of God.

Theists have never been able to get around this simple problem with morality-by-the-word-of-God. They have no answer to it.

iaazathot

2009-07-06 12:05:29 AM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Like not collecting stamps is a hobby...

tinfoil-hat maggie

2009-07-06 12:06:21 AM

Armandeus: I've heard all these arguments a hundred times before, so I've come here for the funny pictures. More funny pictures!

Just trying to help. supernatural.blogs.com

tinfoil-hat maggie

2009-07-06 12:07:56 AM

icanhazstapler

2009-07-06 12:09:31 AM

Hindmost: Why would an atheist pay money for an ad? I sure as fark wouldn't bother.

What about the tooth fairy? Also not real, but sure as shiat not paying to broadcast that to the commoners. wtf?

Anyone who's visited Fark knows that it's fun to incense the mentally degenerate. It doesn't do anything to further the cause, but it is the source of endless hours of entertainment.

This billboard does not do any of that, however, but it does raise awareness that just because you have doubts doesn't mean you're doomed to hell or, worse, isolation.

2009-07-06 12:09:44 AM

iaazathot: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Like not collecting stamps is a hobby...

whorechurch.files.wordpress.com

Amigajoe

2009-07-06 12:10:58 AM

bushbot111: Farkers are so confused....they hate religion but they love black people no matter what. What are they to do? This thread is full of torn emotions. I love it

-You're new here, yes?

/go back to FR

icanhazstapler

2009-07-06 12:12:07 AM

Brainmeat: The majority controls the truth until proof is made otherwise.

That isn't truth you're thinking of. I believe the term you're confusing it for is "wikiality."

2009-07-06 12:13:38 AM

icanhazstapler: Brainmeat: The majority controls the truth until proof is made otherwise.

That isn't truth you're thinking of. I believe the term you're confusing it for is "wikiality."

Thats truthiness you can believe in.

2009-07-06 12:17:36 AM

shipofthesun: Actually, yes, as seen through the lens of quantum physics, nothing really is, until it is chosen. So reality is a bleeding edge of consciousness sort of thing, that evolves every microsecond. Or not.

You're misusing the concept of uncertainty and superposition, this is NOT what it implies.
I guarantee my physics professors would be very upset at that argument.

Brainmeat: My point was, which I guess I stated poorly, that even a well argued point, based in reality and proven by whatever science is necessary, can still be considered by the majority to be incorrect, because they choose not to believe it.

That's true, but I still don't think that what people believe to be true has any affect on what is actually true.

Brainmeat: when they disagree with one another, what is true is still true and what is believed to true is also true, to the person who believes it.

This is what I really disagree with.
Something cannot be "true to the person who believes it". They can believe it and be wrong, but believing it does not make it true. If a lot of people believe something it can affect the way society behaves, but it can never affect the way nature behaves. Consider a plain enough example and this becomes obvious; if someone gives you a cyanide pill and tells you it is Tylenol, it will kill you whether you honestly believe it will cure your headache or not.

If reality could be different for a someone just because of what they believe to be true, it would imply that the world works differently for different people. In this case, two people performing the same experiment would get different results depending on what they expected to happen. The world would be incomprehensible and, in fact, what "really is" wouldn't exist; it would be a meaningless concept.

2009-07-06 12:18:16 AM

kerpal32: madblader: Militant Atheists is the term used by religious idiots when they can't win a debate against a smart Atheist.

or, more likely, it's used to describe anti-theistic hate rhetoric and behaviour by some atheists, and frustration a gnostic atheist feels when he / she realizes they can no more prove their philosophical position than any gnostic theist but insist on continuing to argue with everyone about it.

BTW - I'm really getting a laugh out of this and similar threads while reading excerpts of Hawking's essay addressing Fermi's paradox and colonizing other planets through the equivalent of intelligent design from his Life in the Universe lecture series. (circa 2007)

http://www.fark.com/cgi/comments.pl?IDLink=4487687 (pops)

Just because you can't disprove or prove God the default is not that there might be one. In fact, it is the opposite.

2009-07-06 12:18:40 AM

MorganFreeman: iaazathot: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Like not collecting stamps is a hobby...

Heh.

Not an original idea, but a few years ago I made a crapload of "Religious Tracts" that, on the cover, looked exactly like a Jack Chick publication.

The cover said, in an angry font, "WHAT GOD HAS REVEALED TO MAN" with the usual fanfare of design in the background.

Inside, the pages were all blank.

From_The_Year_2000

2009-07-06 12:19:46 AM

Most people that believe in god unquestioningly are morons. It's a troll thing to say, but it's also true

Corvus

2009-07-06 12:22:41 AM

onebadgungan: Corvus: So my city having a giant cross on public land is ok but people privately having a billboard like this is not?

I immediately thought of San Diego, where I live.
(checks profile)

Yep. Cool deal. Fark party, y'all?

I hate all the "save our cross people".

If they want to "save the cross" how about they collect millions in private money and buy it privately and not have our public tax money pay for it.

They went it against that idea when they couldn't rig the auction to sell it to them for a cheap price.

It drives me nuts these are the same people who are against "government waste" and spending and when you say well it's a waste to spend money on a giant cross on a hill they flip out like that's the most important spending the government should do.

They are crazy lunatics.

2009-07-06 12:24:04 AM

From_The_Year_2000: Most people that believe in god unquestioningly are morons. It's a troll thing to say, but it's also true

Unquestioningly is the key term, but yeah. There's a ton of smart Christians, but anyone who doesn't question what they believe in and why isn't going to come off as a genius.

2009-07-06 12:24:36 AM

Gawdzila: You're misusing the concept of uncertainty and superposition, this is NOT what it implies.
I guarantee my physics professors would be very upset at that argument.

I'm sorry, are you trying to tell me how to interpret Heisenberg? And your professors can be as upset as they want, uncertainty is as uncertainty does. I'm not actually bound to think any specific way about how the universe operates, as nothing of any great importance rides on the outcome.

2009-07-06 12:38:54 AM

From_The_Year_2000: Most people that believe in god unquestioningly are morons. It's a troll thing to say, but it's also true

I think if you took a moment and considered the chart I posted above, you would realize that personality is more important to any given person's "religion" than their intelligence (or their ability to "win" an argument on the internet).

2009-07-06 12:39:20 AM

vertiaset: Somebody has Wikipedia bookmarked.

It had more to do with the class on brain biology that I took a couple quarters ago.

vertiaset: Your comment was first and foremost hairsplitting, this is Fark, not the Lancet. Secondly, in the latter part of your post you acknowledge I was correct. Now, why would you go to all that trouble?

The point seems to have eluded you..

First you said that morality required a sense of self and the ability for abstract thought, and that dolphins "don't have the hardware" for it, citing humans neocortex as the structure that gives us this unique ability.

I pointed out that, not only is the neocortex common to ALL mammals, but the structure that does give us abstract thought is a piece of hardware that many animals do have. On top of that, we have little idea of the relationship between the size of the association cortex and the sorts of mental dexterity it allows you to perform, meaning that nobody can say for certain what sort of mental capabilities many of the higher mammals have.

Not only is this NOT hairsplitting, but I didn't agree with you. I directly contradicted your position that other animals "do not have the hardware" necessary for abstraction, and especially your assertion that no person "of even moderate intelligence would make such a claim".

Was that easier to follow for you?

2009-07-06 12:47:13 AM

shipofthesun: I'm sorry, are you trying to tell me how to interpret Heisenberg?

No, I'm not telling you how to interpret it.
I'm just telling you that it doesn't support the argument you made.

shipofthesun: I'm not actually bound to think any specific way about how the universe operates, as nothing of any great importance rides on the outcome.

Agreed, but irrelevant.
I don't care if you're right or wrong about how the universe works, I just point out misuses of physics when they happen.
That sort of fast and loose interpretation is what results in crap like The Secret.

2009-07-06 12:55:00 AM

vertiaset: Perhaps, then true morality is a HUMAN thing, and that religious morality is just a part of our evolution toward true morality.

Not too horribly wrong, but multiply wrong.
1) Morality is not limited to humans.
2) "evolution toward" implies a linear path, as opposed to the non-uniform drunkard's walk in a minefield (in an n-dimensional space) that evolution uses
3) The phrase "toward true morality" implies the destination is reachable, rather than asymptotic approach
4) to maintain the useful distinction between my objects of the terms morality and ethics, "toward better ethics" would be preferred

vertiaset: Morality is purely a human construct.

Morality is a human concept. So, however, are the laws of thermodynamics.

vertiaset: When a cat tortures a mouse before eating it, the cat is not being immoral. It is not immoral when a black hole consumes an entire galaxy or when a wolf pack hunts a new born elk.

Morality requires choice. Your examples give no choices, they are only events; morality only enters in the consideration for multiple options.

Now, if you want to discuss the cat choosing between eating the mouse immediately versus doing more before that... yes, it's a question of morality. And we can get into that.

letrole: My point is that apart from God, there is no right and wrong, only results. I presented an example of men in the wild state who didn't have a full-blown sense of Western Ethics, as many "modern thinkers" seem to assume they would.

It's still ethics; merely a somewhat alien system of ethics, in part from the alien probabilities of the different environment.

vertiaset: There is no morality in nature beyond man

img529.imageshack.us

Any of the four will do.

vertiaset: I am sure I have a lot yet to learn.

Interesting.

So, would you agree with the Commutativity of Logical Inclusive Disjunction -- that (P OR Q) is logically equivalent to (Q OR P), such that either might be inferred from the other?

img359.imageshack.us

vertiaset: Only humans, with their ability to see themselves as separate and distinct from the rest of creation and hence with free will, can be moral or immoral.

img529.imageshack.us

Jim_Callahan

2009-07-06 12:55:58 AM

G2V:
That being said, I hate when atheists call themselves "Free thinkers," as an implicit differentiation between themselves and the religious. Yeah, that'll win people over.

Believe it or not, Atheism is not evangelical, we've no obligation to win people over whatsoever.

It's also a reasonably accurate, factual label as the religious (correct or not) are slaving their will intentionally to that of another (imaginary) being. It's not even being a dick, really.

For being a dick, see things like this:

From_The_Year_2000: Most people that believe in god unquestioningly are morons. It's a troll thing to say, but it's also true

//To be fair, most people, period, are morons, but the implication that it's restricted to the religious is kind of unfair.

br0g

2009-07-06 12:58:20 AM

JQPublic

That's funny

right there. I could actually hear the background music from the mac ads accompanying the crack of the bat against the scientologist's head. Good stuff.

2009-07-06 12:58:51 AM

Wasn't somebody mentioning something about Atheism, not a religion, symbols, organizing, etc?

/just fuel for the fire, since it's hot, like my link

jmomo

2009-07-06 01:08:09 AM

Sounds a lot like a billboard that was put up here in Arizona a month ago. It causes a good stir among the republifundies. There are multiple "god is great" whoop-de-do signs around Arizona, but only this one makes the news. Can't have people thinking for themselves.

2009-07-06 01:08:49 AM

Ding Dong Seven: The term Free Thinkers has been around for ages.

Circa 1692, belike.

Brainmeat: Reality is ruled by majority.

However, you are only eligible to vote if you are a Universe.

vertiaset: A law that is universal and applies equally to all of humanity and in all times and places.

Your scope is too limited.

kerpal32: it all depends on the level of fanaticism (and ignorance)of the individual.

img529.imageshack.us

2009-07-06 01:11:44 AM

br0g: JQPublic

That's funny right there. I could actually hear the background music from the mac ads accompanying the crack of the bat against the scientologist's head. Good stuff.

Haha yeah, this was the first thing I thought of :)

hoyso.com

2009-07-06 01:12:51 AM

abb3w:
Brainmeat: Reality is ruled by majority.

However, you are only eligible to vote if you are a Universe.

so full of win I think I pissed myself...

Vash's Apprentice

2009-07-06 01:15:18 AM

From_The_Year_2000: Most people that believe in god unquestioningly are morons. It's a troll thing to say, but it's also true

Actually, I agree. How can you get any answers if you don't ask questions? Blind faith is what makes families strap C4 onto their sons and daughters.

Also, anyone that thinks a sign is threatening to Christianinty has little to no faith in God.

/Self-righteous Athiest indignation in 5,4,3....;)
//No, I will NOT get into a pathetic flamewar

Tanishh

2009-07-06 01:17:14 AM

vertiaset: I personally like this billboard. It is less a advertisement for atheism than an appeal to atheists to adhere to a moral system. I think this is a good idea.

One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral. After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

What a strange ... and dangerous ... world view.

I don't see the problem.

You're saying that a lot of people give up on God, and then without their belief in God, throw away their morals and cease seeing good/evil and simply do whatever they feel like doing.

I would assert that such people are inherently immoral and that if the only thing keeping them in line was fear of not going to heaven and not being judged well by God, then they had bigger issues.

The same goes for those who still believe in God and always believe in God. If the only (or even primary by a longshot) reason that they are moral, ethical, and good is that they fear not going to heaven or not being viewed well by God, then something is very wrong with that person to begin with.

I look around me and see about as much evidence that God exists as I do the tooth fairy or santa claus, and as such I believe that God is about as likely to exist as the aforementioned figures. Despite this, and despite the fact that I don't think there is a heaven or hell necessarily, I think I'm all around a pretty decent person. I don't break any major laws (besides jaywalking and speeding every so often), I treat people with kindness and respect when they deserve it, I am generous with my friends, I speak ill only of he who merits it, don't do drugs/alcohol, and I try to be considerate to others at all times. I do these things not because I fear punishment or judgement but because I believe they are what a good person would do and I want to be a good person.

My point is, there are good theists and there are bad/immoral theists (adulterers, drug addicts, murderers, thieves, all around jackasses, etc.). There are good atheists and there are bad atheists (same as aforementioned list). Being a good/moral/ethical person has nothing to do with what you believe in and everything to do with how you act and what choices you make in life. If belief in God helps more people to make positive choices then that's swell, but there's still an inherent problem with those people if without their belief in God and judgement after death they would make evil or wrong choices. I would argue that such people are flawed individuals, even if not outwardly so.

2009-07-06 01:35:04 AM

letrole is his DURR-name

Unless someone believes every single word of the Bible (even the stuff that contradicts itself, doublethink ftw) then obviously they get their morality from something other than it.

If you say "I don't believe this part" then you must have a moral compass apart from religion telling you that it's wrong. For example if you're a Christian and eat shellfish. It says in the Bible eating an aquatic animal that posesseses no scales is 'abomination'. If you are a Christian and don't believe that then theres a voice inside you telling you it's wrong, this voice doesn't come from the Bible does it now?

It's sad that many religious people have to have the fear of eternal torture looming over them in order to be moral.

Atheists realise this is the only life we have and it's precious. So most of us try to enjoy our life without imposing on others happiness.

2009-07-06 01:36:17 AM

Tanishh: vertiaset: I personally like this billboard. It is less a advertisement for atheism than an appeal to atheists to adhere to a moral system. I think this is a good idea.

One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral. After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

What a strange ... and dangerous ... world view.

I don't see the problem.

You're saying that a lot of people give up on God, and then without their belief in God, throw away their morals and cease seeing good/evil and simply do whatever they feel like doing.

I would assert that such people are inherently immoral and that if the only thing keeping them in line was fear of not going to heaven and not being judged well by God, then they had bigger issues.

The same goes for those who still believe in God and always believe in God. If the only (or even primary by a longshot) reason that they are moral, ethical, and good is that they fear not going to heaven or not being viewed well by God, then something is very wrong with that person to begin with.

I look around me and see about as much evidence that God exists as I do the tooth fairy or santa claus, and as such I believe that God is about as likely to exist as the aforementioned figures. Despite this, and despite the fact that I don't think there is a heaven or hell necessarily, I think I'm all around a pretty decent person. I don't break any major laws (besides jaywalking and speeding every so often), I treat people with kindness and respect when they deserve it, I am generous with my friends, I speak ill only of he who merits it, don't do drugs/alcohol, and I try to be considerate to others at all times. I do these things not because I fear punishment or judgement but because I believe they are what a good person would do and I want to be a good person.

My point is, there are good theists and there are bad/immoral theists (adulterers, drug addicts, murderers, thieves, all around jackasses, etc.). There are good atheists and there are bad atheists (same as aforementioned list). Being a good/moral/ethical person has nothing to do with what you believe in and everything to do with how you act and what choices you make in life. If belief in God helps more people to make positive choices then that's swell, but there's still an inherent problem with those people if without their belief in God and judgement after death they would make evil or wrong choices. I would argue that such people are flawed individuals, even if not outwardly so.

For this very reason though I never take on any type of personal crusade against theism. We can all agree that there are people out there who are the "flawed individuals" you speak of. ("I was an inbreedin killin sunuvagun, but then I found Jesus, and he saved me!"). And I for one, would rather they have a flawed source of morality than none at all.

onebadgungan

2009-07-06 01:40:39 AM

Corvus: onebadgungan: Corvus: So my city having a giant cross on public land is ok but people privately having a billboard like this is not?

I immediately thought of San Diego, where I live.
(checks profile)

Yep. Cool deal. Fark party, y'all?

I hate all the "save our cross people".

If they want to "save the cross" how about they collect millions in private money and buy it privately and not have our public tax money pay for it.

They went it against that idea when they couldn't rig the auction to sell it to them for a cheap price.

It drives me nuts these are the same people who are against "government waste" and spending and when you say well it's a waste to spend money on a giant cross on a hill they flip out like that's the most important spending the government should do.

They are crazy lunatics.

I agree. A war memorial is fine, but it should represent all of the people, not just one segment, if it's on government land. Come up with a good design, let us vote on it, and install it - be done with it and move on. Or get rid of the land and let whoever you sell it to do their thing.

2009-07-06 01:43:46 AM

The universe is always in balance. The number of atheists in Hell is always equal to the number of Christians in Heaven. That is the way the universe balances its books.

/I'm doing my part.

give me doughnuts

2009-07-06 01:51:08 AM

Do you really need any more of a moral or ethical base than the Golden Rule (Modern interpretation): Do you like it when people act like assholes towards you or somebody you like? Then don't act like an asshole towards someone else.

And perhaps the Heinlein definition of sin: The only real sin lies in hurting other people unnecessarily. Hurting yourself isn't a sin, it's just stupid.

lordargent

2009-07-06 01:52:38 AM

give me doughnuts

2009-07-06 01:54:49 AM

Dr_Gats: For this very reason though I never take on any type of personal crusade against theism. We can all agree that there are people out there who are the "flawed individuals" you speak of. ("I was an inbreedin killin sunuvagun, but then I found Jesus, and he saved me!"). And I for one, would rather they have a flawed source of morality than none at all.

But I do wish they would shut up about it.

skinned

2009-07-06 01:56:13 AM

If there really was a God there wouldn't be a Ft Lauderdale.

give me doughnuts

2009-07-06 01:58:22 AM

skinned: If there really was a God there wouldn't be a Ft Lauderdale.

No shiat. He's be up in Palm Beach with the well-to-do folks.

davidphogan

2009-07-06 02:07:26 AM

khonshu: yay! atheism thread:

Ooooh, apparently I have a cult to go start.

2009-07-06 02:09:44 AM

Dr_Gats: Wasn't somebody mentioning something about Atheism, not a religion, symbols, organizing, etc?

/just fuel for the fire, since it's hot, like my link

Gee, I guess that means the NRA, Goodwill, and the National Football League are all religions....

Zombalupagus

2009-07-06 02:13:17 AM

khonshu: yay! atheism thread:

As someone who just described himself as "50% atheist" and falling in the middle between ENTP and INTP I find that chart very disturbing.

2009-07-06 02:34:34 AM

abb3w: 2) "evolution toward" implies a linear path, as opposed to the non-uniform drunkard's walk in a minefield (in an n-dimensional space) that evolution uses

Or perhaps an exponential path towards complexity and purpose.

2009-07-06 02:39:35 AM

Lenny_da_Hog: Dr_Gats: Wasn't somebody mentioning something about Atheism, not a religion, symbols, organizing, etc?

/just fuel for the fire, since it's hot, like my link

Gee, I guess that means the NRA, Goodwill, and the National Football League are all religions....

Hey, I was just completing a list...

kerpal32: symbol

kerpal32:

...it all depends on the level of fanaticism (and ignorance)of the individual. At what point does a "non-belief" become the equivalent of a "belief".
- when you insist you're right in a non-falsifiable debate from either side?
- when you discuss it in forums on the internet with other 'non-believers'?
- when you organize around it?
- when you have representation of your non-belief?
- when you seek to 'convert' (for lack of a better word) as many as possible to your philosophical view?
- when some people whom you share this philosophical view (non-belief, insistence in philosophical materialism and naturalism, etc.) want a symbol so they can identify themselves with other people who share the same non-belief?

So now we just need rituals and a door to door convert program...

2009-07-06 03:09:32 AM

globalwarmingpraiser

2009-07-06 03:26:10 AM

If you believe in god fine, don't bring it up and beat people over the head with it.

If you don't believe in god fine, don't bring it up and beat people over the head with it.

Same thing goes for sexuality. Most people don't care quit AW'ing for no good reason. If you are being an asshole about it your the problem.

1. A person with a strong faith saying God bless you, isn't insulting you. They mean it.
2. An atheist not joining in a prayer when they don't believe isn't insulting. They think different than you.
3. If all you wear are religious T-shirts your overcompensating. I banged your daughter in high school....in da butt.
4. If your straight a picture of the wife and kids are fine, but covering your desk is being a douche.
5. If you are gay showing up in extreme clothing is asking for ridicule. Same as Emo's. Dress appropriatelyfor work.

Most people know these rules and have no problems. If you are offended by them guess what. Your the problem.

basilbrush

2009-07-06 03:37:44 AM

eqtworld: bushbot111: eqtworld

Where is thst?

GISville

WTF is wrong with Protestants, evolution does not mean there is no god! I currently live in a country with more roman catholic churches per person that any other country in the world and almost everyone here believes in evolution. Although that Benedict dickhead is trying to change that.

2009-07-06 03:40:03 AM

This thread is still going?

Good G-d.

DemonEater

2009-07-06 03:48:47 AM

globalwarmingpraiser: If you believe in god fine, don't bring it up and beat people over the head with it.

If you don't believe in god fine, don't bring it up and beat people over the head with it.

I'm pretty happy to never mention my non-belief in God. Like I don't mention pink elephants, the Roswell aliens, or the female orgasm. There's just not much point in talking about stuff that doesn't exist.

It's those religious people who make all the noise that pretty much force our hands. Flipping channels tonight, caught a guy preaching about how God gave us the vote, and how we need to vote according to the Bible, making Biblical morality the law of the land, so we're not found wanting when Jesus returns. Or some such crazy shiat.

Believe me, I'd rather it never came up. But I'm not sitting around while bible-thumpers try to take my rights, teach kids demonstrably false "science", or try to convert me. fark that.

Mustaf Herod Upyur Poupr

2009-07-06 04:01:26 AM

Godscrack wins this thread. The LULZ is strong with that pic.

Your Faith is Creepy

2009-07-06 04:07:40 AM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral. After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

This is just weak. How does it follow that, if man is the measure of all things, there is no right and wrong? Why do you think these concepts are not human inventions?

A moral relativist is a person who doesn't believe in moral absolutes, i.e. that the same moral standards apply equal to all people in all times, places and situations. Do you believe in moral absolutes? If so, please share.

Sometimes Christians cite the Ten Commandments as a basis for morality. I've never heard a Christian describe their applied interpretation of "Thou shall not kill" in anything other than morally relativistic terms.

2009-07-06 04:08:54 AM

DemonEater:
Believe me, I'd rather it never came up. But I'm not sitting around while bible-thumpers try to take my rights, teach kids demonstrably false "science", or try to convert me. fark that.

I agree with the first two.

I don't care if they try to convert me, though. I kind of view it from that standpoint that while I think they are gravely in error, if they really think they are savings souls, I can see why they're doing it, and as long as their interference in my life extends just to basically annoying me, I'm not going to get too angry over it.

I am polite and tell them I'm not interested, or in the worst case scenario tell them I do not have any religious beliefs and ask them if they'd like a cup of coffee (I do this for the Jehovah's Witnesses who somehow always know which weekend I decide to sleep in -- good chaps, but my "YOU JUST WOKE ME UP YOU BASTARD" bloodshot eyes scare them). I've found most people tend to respect you when you say you aren't interested and leave it at that.

2009-07-06 04:11:22 AM

Your Faith is Creepy: vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality. Many, certainly not all, become moral relativists or, even worse, amoral. After all, if man is the measure of all things and there is no right or wrong, just "things people do", then there is no evil and, conversely, no good.

This is just weak. How does it follow that, if man is the measure of all things, there is no right and wrong? Why do you think these concepts are not human inventions?

A moral relativist is a person who doesn't believe in moral absolutes, i.e. that the same moral standards apply equal to all people in all times, places and situations. Do you believe in moral absolutes? If so, please share.

Sometimes Christians cite the Ten Commandments as a basis for morality. I've never heard a Christian describe their applied interpretation of "Thou shall not kill" in anything other than morally relativistic terms.

Thou shalt not make repetitive, generic music.
Thou shalt not make repetitive, generic music.
Thou shalt not make repetitive, generic music.
Thou shalt not make repetitive, generic music.

Abstruse

2009-07-06 04:11:23 AM

horaciomears

2009-07-06 04:16:58 AM

2009-07-06 04:28:25 AM

abb3w:
Brainmeat: Reality is ruled by majority.

However, you are only eligible to vote if you are a Universe.

I like that response. You made me snerk.

2009-07-06 04:32:18 AM

Here's a very interesting Standford lecture on the relationship between the crazies and religious belief.

Link (new window)

Your Faith is Creepy

2009-07-06 04:46:32 AM

FitzShivering: Thou shalt not make repetitive, generic music.

So the biggest sinners by atheist lights are John Williams, Yanni, Mannheim Steamroller, Kenny G and John Tesh?

I can get behind that.

CruiserTwelve

2009-07-06 05:10:02 AM

rustylite: CruiserTwelve: W. T. Fark: First sensible thing I've ever heard you say.

So a post is only sensible if you agree with it. I see how that works now.

aaaaaaaaaand back to being an idiot again

Raed my post again and think about it.

2009-07-06 05:21:19 AM

vertiaset: Two things Sport, first you need to switch gears when you go from replying to letrole to me, the simplistic atheist spiel you use with him does not serve you well in a more sophisticated discussion.

I smell another kerpal32 alt...

vistar

2009-07-06 05:44:53 AM

Religion. I choose not to participate.
If anyone tries to convert me to their way of thinking they have instantly empowered me to try and convert them to my way of thinking. Once I start talking over them about my way of thinking - they run a mile. Interfering nuisance dealt with.

/Noli nothi permittere te terere.
//Dopey exhortations are more forceful in Latin

Crazy Bacon Legs

2009-07-06 05:57:16 AM

jso2897: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

If you are an insurance salesman, there is no difference between listening to the radio and spitting on a snake.
If you are a lion tamer, there is no difference between folding a paper airplane and ordering out for pizza.
If you are an artichoke farmer, there is no difference between having your tonsils out and painting a Volkswagen.

Discuss.

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time.

You just made your way onto my favorites list. Good job.

DemonEater

2009-07-06 06:03:57 AM

madblader: Here's a very interesting Standford lecture on the relationship between the crazies and religious belief.

Link (new window)

While that was a fascinating lecture, and I thank you for linking it...
Fark you for posting it at 4:30am.
I am now going to have to stay up.
Bastard.

foxo

2009-07-06 06:19:56 AM

I sure don't wanna go to heaven,being assigned a job of guardian angel for all eternity to protect some creep politician or corporate criminal from harm on this earth.
If God? created man in his? image,I sure don't want nothing to do with that loser.
I believe the Virgin Mary did not pop out jebus,it was the stork that delivered him.

sluck604

2009-07-06 07:00:42 AM

MaxRebo: JQPublic: MaxRebo: Farkshower1972: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.

One of the stupidest attampts at an aphorism I ever read. If bald had NOTHING to do with hair at all I might have some reason to agree with the analogy. It almost sounds smart until you realize how stupid an argument it is.

Let's not use any analogies so they don't confuse the issue.

Not believing in any god is NOT THE SAME as believing there is no god. NO ONE CAN PROVE god exists or does not exist (not in this world).

Atheism IS a religion. They are trying to create converts just like any other faith-based group (faith defined as belief without proof).

So not believing in stuff that doesn't exist is a religion?
Unicorns?
Leprechauns?
1+1=3?
Flat Earth?
Geocentrism?

Those must be religions too.

Not believing is not the same as believing not (read and understand my post before responding next time). Try again. I don't believe in any of those things either, but I don't waste ANY time telling others not to believe in them, or get all pissy about it when I don't get my way.

When your kid is failing math because he believes 1+1=3 come back to us.

/dumb ass.

Mykeru

2009-07-06 07:13:48 AM

Khanmots: (I'm an agnostic if you can't tell; I'll leave it unsaid if I'm an athiest agnostic or a thiest agnostic)

I'm amused by your dogmatic, militant belief in things being unknowable. Are you a pixie agnostic too, or do you just trot that word for things you can't disprove that also happen to be "God".

And I'm going to guess you're a smug theistic agnostic who retreated to agnosticism when apologetics failed.

BorgiaGinz

2009-07-06 07:32:48 AM

You're all going to Hell! (new window)

/loves The Bastard Fairies

BorgiaGinz

2009-07-06 07:37:09 AM

A leading African-American theologian weighs in. . . (new window)

califacondor

2009-07-06 07:43:15 AM

Dear lord,
I read this entire thread...
My eyes are bleeding and its getting bright out.
I've gotta stop clicking these god threads.

xanadian

2009-07-06 07:45:00 AM

Being a Christian, I can attest that what the billboard says is true. You DON'T need to believe in God to be a good person.

You're still gonna go to hell, though...

2009-07-06 07:49:41 AM

Zombalupagus: As someone who just described himself as "50% atheist" and falling in the middle between ENTP and INTP I find that chart very disturbing.

"Disturbing" in what way? Like in a creepy "Ouija Board" way, or just an I-didn't-expect-that-chart-to-be-accurate way?

2009-07-06 08:03:06 AM

xanadian: You're still gonna go to hell, though...

Who told you that?

2009-07-06 08:10:57 AM

DarnoKonrad: Billboards. That is militant. Think of the children. They must be stopped.

The children must be stopped?

vertiaset: Yes, and a fine one at that. I wonder though, how many of the fuzzy headed "sky wizard" atheists on Fark have ever even heard of "Humanism".

Um... everyone?

vertiaset: My favorite atheist. A man who was not an ideologue. Not a hater. A man who knew both religion and science. A man who realized one could be a skeptic and a believer. A true seeker after the "Truth" ... yes with a capital "T".

He also said things like:

Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.

...and...

Humanity has the stars in its future, and that future is too important to be lost under the burden of juvenile folly and ignorant superstition.

...and...

I don't believe in an afterlife, so I don't have to spend my whole life fearing hell, or fearing heaven even more. For whatever the tortures of hell, I think the boredom of heaven would be even worse.

...and...

The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom.

...and...

There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere.

...and...

To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today.

...all of which would have him instantly branded on Fark as an "intolerant, militant ATHIEST ZOMG!!!" (The misspelling is important.)

And yet all he was was awesome.

The Icelander: People with an incomplete knowledge of evolution think this, but they're wrong.

...somewhat implies they are looking for "completeness" as opposed to "ammo."

Vangor: No. I stated an often overlooked fact. If the deity determines what is good and evil, this does not make good and evil absolutes. The concepts are still arbitrary and dependent upon the will of the deity. If one wishes to argue the deity cannot alter concepts such as good and evil, obviously something greater set those concepts firmly, but the same rules apply to this "something".

This is why moral absolutes fail for an argument.

That's one situation. The other is that God commands some things because they are Good(TM), but that would put God in a superfluous role. If Good(TM) is absolute, it can be reached without God(TM).

Not to mention there's that whole "functional" layer, where if you ask ten different theists what God commands, you usually get twenty different answers, so... Even if you WERE granting that Good exists and God tells us what it is, the methods used are way too incoherent for proper interpretation.

Marcintosh: Huh -

I'll be damned

WINRAR!

letrole: STOP ASSIGNING WESTERN THOUGHT TO THE DEFAULT STATE OF MAN.

letrole: You think murder is murder, theft is theft, whatever, only because you were brought up in a Judeo Christian society. Try as you might, you can only find ways of "scientifically" explaining the things that you were already taught.

Hee-hee... This dude is so adorable.

bartink: Lets have an experiment. Everyone in the world should believe I'm banging Megan Fox and Sasha Grey.

Please.

Unfortunately you put both of them too close, so we're really just going to believe that Sasha Grey is banging Megan Fox.

Still pretty much a win for everyone, though.

vertiaset: I have been asked, more than once, where I personally find my ethical center. I have made several comments regarding moral relativism and, despite further queries by some of you I did not really follow up on the subject. I do not want to be seen as avoiding the issue. Moreover, since I asked this question of atheists it is only fair. My response was a simple bibliography and I think was less than thoughtful. So, having given it some more thought, this is my more thoughtful answer:

/morality is relative
//not when you have decided what your objective should be

vertiaset: Some people, like many Fark "atheists" who have not actually given much thought to their atheism, take the view that morality is entirely relative and is dependent upon the mores of the society in which it exists. This leads to the idea that since it was as a religious necessity in the culture of the Aztecs to defeat their neighbors in warfare and tear their living hearts out that this was a "moral" act. Likewise the same could be said of slavery, the witch hunts of medieval Europe, the Inquisition or the Holocaust. These folks are known as "Moral Relativists".

...and yet you are completely incorrect. Anthropologically-speaking, we can say they believed they were acting morally, but certainly we are under no compunctions to label it "moral," since we judge it by our perspective. (And I'd like to think we've come at least a LITTLE ways since the days of human sacrifice.) In the same way that if we're discussing particular evolutionary drives in human nature, we are discussing it in that capacity, not saying that "because it is natural, it is both 'good' and 'moral' to society." Your comments are precisely as asinine as those always trying to link evolution and eugenics, for precisely the same reason.

Frankly, alla them evil "moral relativists" I find are far MORE moral than others, because they tend to define "society" as "everyone" (usually branching out to other species as well), look at societies past and present for markers, and apply only thought to the matter, without having any sort of scriptural override.

It is only the recognition that morals are relative, and frankly understanding that is rather necessary to trying to properly figure out a way to blend all the divergent relativists (who think they aren't) in the world in some fashion where we can stop killing each other all the time, kthxplz.

We also recognize that there's a drive for males to mount finely-proferred posteriors, but there's no rutting that goes on in the middle of the street.

...usually.

ninjakirby: ...someone needs to re-take highschool biology.

o_O

Grade school biology.

abb3w: However, these usually have long term drawbacks that make them losing tactics overall.
And you have to remember that THE GAME never ends.

...and yet you just made all of us LOSE IT, damn you!

Jeffrey.Rodriguez: I'm not aware of anyone killing anyone else over the tooth fairy.

i41.tinypic.com

bartink: If you locked me in a box with Selma Hayek, when would we be considered to have consummated the relationship?

I'm guessing something approaching infinity.

Oh yeah, dumbass? How are you getting any FOOD in there without opening the box? That's a consummation-limiter right there!

Gawdzila: Haha yeah, this was the first thing I thought of :)

Your spoon is way too big, dude.

I'll end with an Asimov quote, too:
Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.

FlashHarry

2009-07-06 08:16:24 AM

JQPublic: The sign is located in Los Angeles on the 105 Freeway.

Link (new window)

the fact that these people are stupid enough to think that atheism means "belief in nothing" or that an atheist believes that "nothing made everything" means that one cannot argue with them. they are beyond the grasp of intelligence.

vicaphit

2009-07-06 08:23:36 AM

This sign is awesome. Why can a Christian put up a sign and not an Athiest?

If I ever become a rich person, I will be putting up Athiest signs all over the place (preferably near christian signs)

SwallowTheKnife

2009-07-06 08:34:09 AM

"The women and blacks in this neighborhood, they've been discriminated before, in the recent past, as early as 30, 40 years ago," Loukinen said, "and yet, they have no problem discriminating against another group, whether it be gays or atheists."

www.clanpot.com

/Hot like tea.

SurfaceTension

2009-07-06 08:40:00 AM

vertiaset: One of my main problems with atheists is that all too often in abandoning their faith they also abandon any sense of morality.

Two points:

How can one abandon something which he never had in the first place. I'm almost 40 years old and have never adhered to any religious belief.

Also, do you consider anyone who doesn't adhere to YOUR religious belief to be immoral? What gives your religion the corner on morality? If you agree that people with widely disparate religious beliefs (Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists) can be moral, then don't you have to allow for the possibility that morality is subjective, and isn't imposed from just your Higher Power?

2009-07-06 08:48:49 AM

Crazy Bacon Legs: jso2897: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

If you are an insurance salesman, there is no difference between listening to the radio and spitting on a snake.
If you are a lion tamer, there is no difference between folding a paper airplane and ordering out for pizza.
If you are an artichoke farmer, there is no difference between having your tonsils out and painting a Volkswagen.

Discuss.

That's what I've been trying to say this whole time.

You just made your way onto my favorites list. Good job.

I actually kind of like LeTrole. Unlike most of the religious bigots here (and I hasten to add that those bigots are very few - most of the believers here are as tolerant and respectful of my non-belief as I am of their belief), he says what he means, and means what he says - in contrast to the creeps who couch their insulting attacks on non-belief as "respectful questions".
Like them, he regards non-believers as morally sub-human - but he has the guts to come right out and say so.

Gothnet

2009-07-06 08:56:19 AM

jso2897: I actually kind of like LeTrole. Unlike most of the religious bigots here ... he says what he means, and means what he says

Best laugh I've had in days! Thanks!

gad

2009-07-06 09:07:39 AM

madblader: Here's a very interesting Standford lecture on the relationship between the crazies and religious belief.

Link (new window)

Thanks, a very interesting lecture. I'm glad we're finally zeroing in on biological reasons for religion, hopefully some day we'll have a cure. Metamagical Schizotypalism. Also of interest for good discussions of 'Magical Thinking' you might want to get the podcasts for 'The Skeptics Guide to the Universe' Link You know, intelligent discussions without loonies trying to tell you that 'Atheism is a Religion' and other nonsense arguments.

Rambo'sDad

2009-07-06 09:21:54 AM

fumb duck: 1)farkshower:
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

Calling 'Atheism' a religion is like calling 'Bald' a hair color.
wow...can I borrow that?...

2)jso2897
"Why, if I had a nickel for every Chinaman who's stolen my apricots, Shia LeBouf would be president of Guam!"
you are my hero,although I have no clue what that means....

You are my hero because I have no clue what that means.

Vash's Apprentice

2009-07-06 09:32:56 AM

SurfaceTension: : If you agree that people with widely disparate religious beliefs (Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists) can be moral, then don't you have to allow for the possibility that morality is subjective, and isn't imposed from just your Higher Power?

It's called a conscience, and it could be argued that it is God given.

/thanks for playing, here's some lovely parting gifts

Lolthien

2009-07-06 09:43:01 AM

Bagelox-99

2009-07-06 09:44:30 AM

JQPublic: In 1989, I was a soldier, a newlywed, and a new father. I needed a car real bad, stationed up at Ft. Lewis, WA. The only people that would finance my loan was Alaska Federal Credit Union, only if I was Catholic. I was, and still am atheist, and needed a car. So I, and my wife (she was a protestant) had to feign catholicism to get a car loan.

WTF??? A Federal Credit Union (for gov't employees, right?) in 1989, denying credit to people based on religious affiliations???

Now if the only people who would finance you were the Knights of Columbus Credit Union, I can see it (not approve, but see it).

How was that possible?

Lolthien

2009-07-06 09:45:09 AM

DamnYankees: JQPublic: You are conflating atheism with communism. The two are not related.

No I'm not. People were killed in Russia because they were religious, and they were killed because the state believed religion was evil and harmful and should be wiped out. It wasn't incredibly widespread, but it happened.

There's nothing stopping an atheist from hating religious so much he kills people out of his hatred.

Are you honestly suggesting more people have been killed for believing in god than have been killed for not believing in (the proper) god throughout history?

I would like to see some statistics for that please.

vonster

2009-07-06 10:27:20 AM

It's so nice to see people stand up for what they don't believe in...

TheBigJerk

2009-07-06 10:29:09 AM

globalwarmingpraiser: If you believe in god fine, don't bring it up and beat people over the head with it.

If you don't believe in god fine, don't bring it up and beat people over the head with it.

Same thing goes for sexuality. Most people don't care quit AW'ing for no good reason. If you are being an asshole about it your the problem.

1. A person with a strong faith saying God bless you, isn't insulting you. They mean it.
2. An atheist not joining in a prayer when they don't believe isn't insulting. They think different than you.
3. If all you wear are religious T-shirts your overcompensating. I banged your daughter in high school....in da butt.
4. If your straight a picture of the wife and kids are fine, but covering your desk is being a douche.
5. If you are gay showing up in extreme clothing is asking for ridicule. Same as Emo's. Dress appropriatelyfor work.

Most people know these rules and have no problems. If you are offended by them guess what. Your the problem.

Hi, I'm an imaginary internet person. I'm a lesbian, single, and looking for love. I ask out another woman because she's cute, nice, and friendly. She's straight, but since we're following your "don't bring it up" rule no one knows anyone else's sexuality.

OHNOEZ!

It is easy to make pithy statements, it is a whole lot harder to make people behave nicely to each other.

2009-07-06 10:30:04 AM

Lolthien: Low Troll Potential. Poor effort.

Yet he hooked an entire 700 post argument with that line.
Even I was guilty of responding once.

I don't understand why everyone continues to respond to vertiaset and letrole, even after they have demonstrated a complete lack of actual objective thought-process through this entire thread.

skeptic99

2009-07-06 10:45:52 AM

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

And not collecting stamps is a hobby.

DesertEagle

2009-07-06 10:46:33 AM

Vash's Apprentice umm... guy, Islam is an Abrahamic faith the God Muslims believe in is the same God from the old testament.

/No, Allah is not another deity, it's the same Judeo-Christian God
//Yes it is. Allah is the name, just like the Jews call God by the tetragrammaton YHWH and some Christians, Jehovah

zahadum party planner

2009-07-06 10:55:13 AM

I could spout off dozens of examples of hypocrisy within religion, of it's intolerance, bigotry, and blood lust, but this isn't a debate about the good (or lack thereof) that exists within religion. This is about the right to believe as you wish. This billboard is simply telling people they don't have to be sheep, that it's ok to question the existence of God, and that if you do, you're not alone.

That's really the fundamental core of atheism. I don't believe in a spiritual being who created the world and all that is within it. If someone wants to believe in God, then for me there's no issue here. Every day I am exposed to other's religious beliefs in the form of bumper stickers, religious jewelry, tshirts, and programming on cable and radio. And I have no issue with that. I know that some people are militant about confronting religion, but that's not my way.

Most religions encourage their members to convert others, to tell them that what they believe is wrong, and that they should believe what the religious person believes. At it's core I'm ok with the idea of letting others know what you know (or what you believe to be so). Just leave me be if I choose not to believe. Don't threaten me, belittle me, harass me, intimidate me, or try control me or impose your beliefs on me.

When you do, that's where you've crossed the line.

As many have posted in this thread, there are billboards that attempt to scare people into believing as they do, that they will go to hell if they don't. So threats and scare tactics? Perfectly fine. Peacefully telling others that it's ok to think for yourself, and suddenly you're "anti christian". (and by the way, this billboard doesn't mention any one religion or any one God. it is hardly anti-christian, way to show your ego folks)

The simple fact is this: if we have freedom of religion, then we have freedom *from* religion too. I can choose to believe in Christianity, Judaism, Mohammed, Vishnu or none at all. Either we all are free or none of us are. It makes my brain hurt that christians in particular get all wigged out when they see anything atheist in nature as an attack on their faith, but they have no issue when a mosque gets built in their community. How is believe in something other then what you believe ok but belief in nothing is not? Either way, they aren't on the same page as you.

Vash's Apprentice

2009-07-06 10:56:46 AM

DesertEagle: Vash's Apprentice umm... guy, Islam is an Abrahamic faith the God Muslims believe in is the same God from the old testament.

/No, Allah is not another deity, it's the same Judeo-Christian God
//Yes it is. Allah is the name, just like the Jews call God by the tetragrammaton YHWH and some Christians, Jehovah

Uh, if you could point out where in my post I singled out Muslims, you'd have a point. Otherwise, thanks for overgeneralizing, asshat.

/and WE'RE the intolerant ones?

2009-07-06 11:03:59 AM

Mykeru: Khanmots: (I'm an agnostic if you can't tell; I'll leave it unsaid if I'm an athiest agnostic or a thiest agnostic)

I'm amused by your dogmatic, militant belief in things being unknowable. Are you a pixie agnostic too, or do you just trot that word for things you can't disprove that also happen to be "God".

And I'm going to guess you're a smug theistic agnostic who retreated to agnosticism when apologetics failed.

Well, if you'd caught my other posts in this thread, you'd see that I'm also agnostic when it comes to the existence of undetectable flying unicorns. I don't believe that those exist, but I freely admit I could be wrong as I have no way of knowing. I'm interested thoug; how would you disprove the hypothesis that undetectable entities are undetetable? And if you can't disprove that, how would you disprove the hypothesis that it's possible for undectectable entities to exist?

abb3w attempts to do so with more formal variations of Occam's razor. He thinks he succeeds; I'm not convinced. If he's ever in the area I'd love to have a face-to-face with him (and a few mathmaticians) I know as my higher math background is rather sporadic and incomplete... with what I do know causing me to believe that he's subtly misusing the constructs he cites, but I lack the background to formally show it. Unfortunantly with my piecemeal background any discussion here between us is doomed to convince neither of us. (Give me my mathmatician friends though, and they may be able to serve as an interpreter :P)

tombotia

2009-07-06 11:07:14 AM

TheBigJerk: Hi, I'm an imaginary internet person. I'm a lesbian, single, and looking for love. I ask out another woman because she's cute, nice, and friendly. She's straight, but since we're following your "don't bring it up" rule no one knows anyone else's sexuality.

OHNOEZ!

It is easy to make pithy statements, it is a whole lot harder to make people behave nicely to each other.

Don't try to pick up co-workers especially at the office? Wow that's hard. Go to a gay/lesbian bar to pick up dates if that's your fancy. Or use dating websites, etc...

I'd find it fairly low class for a hetero guy to wander around hitting on chicks, so why can't I find it low class for a gay guy to do the same thing?

Politically correct my ass...

ZeroPly

2009-07-06 11:08:51 AM

dillengest

2009-07-06 11:17:54 AM

genner:
As for my motivation no...it's not all about rewards or punishments. I follow God because I actually like the guy.

Personally I can't get along with a guy who demands that everyone worship him.

DesertEagle

2009-07-06 11:30:26 AM

my bad Vash's Apprentice, that was actually meant for SurfaceTension

and don't take internet arguments so seriously bro, it ain't worth it :D

2009-07-06 11:46:52 AM

zahadum party planner: It makes my brain hurt that christians in particular get all wigged out when they see anything atheist in nature as an attack on their faith, but they have no issue when a mosque gets built in their community.

Insanity loves company.

2009-07-06 11:49:08 AM

Dr_Gats: Wasn't somebody mentioning something about Atheism, not a religion, symbols, organizing, etc?

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

papabusche

2009-07-06 12:01:58 PM

James F. Campbell: vertiaset: So, all of you "moral" atheists. Where does your sense of morality come from anyway? Is there "good" and "evil".

do people really think in terms of good and evil? when you hear about someone walking into a weight room and shooting his old football coach, do you think in your head "that guy is evil" or do you think "man that guy has some serious chemical imbalances in his brain"

I wonder if calling someone evil is a cheap way of saying that person can't be helped, fark em.

know what i mean? good and evil sounds silly to me.
Am i alone here? i wish there was a billboard that addressed this issue.

AndreMA

2009-07-06 12:10:49 PM

James F. Campbell: My wish is that a hundred years from now, people look at Christianity, Islam, and Judaism in the same manner that we presently look at ~~Greek mythology~~ astrology.

FTF... someone

WillOfGod

2009-07-06 12:17:46 PM

Bf+

2009-07-06 12:18:50 PM

"I don't know the reason for putting this sign up," said Big Mama. "It says 'Do not believe in God.'

What does god think of liars?

kgf

2009-07-06 12:59:25 PM

Militant atheism!! Amen!

MojaveVista

2009-07-06 01:04:13 PM

Why does any of this matter? Basically it comes down to that science CAN PROVE EVERYTHING! and that if you are a Christian then your an idiot. The debate of rather there is a God not has become redundant in nature. On one hand science says we have proof and are right, while Christians say we have proof but no one wants to listen to our proof... I'm calling shenanigans

2009-07-06 01:10:00 PM

MojaveVista: if you are a Christian then your an idiot

And probably have bad grammar,too.

WillOfGod

2009-07-06 01:11:25 PM

MojaveVista: Why does any of this matter? Basically it comes down to that science CAN PROVE EVERYTHING! and that if you are a Christian then your an idiot. The debate of rather there is a God not has become redundant in nature. On one hand science says we have proof and are right, while Christians say we have proof but no one wants to listen to our proof... I'm calling shenanigans

This post appears to be a MADlibs of troll bait.

2009-07-06 01:21:12 PM

Man On Pink Corner: Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

I don't recall the UAW arguing philosophy or metaphysics. Much less insisting they must be right, well, "because".

Truly you have a dizzying intellect as you show.

img294.imageshack.us

dletter

2009-07-06 01:45:10 PM

Way late in the thread, so, just my thoughts which I'm sure have been said numerous times...

The sign says: "Being a good person doesn't require God."

It doesn't say "Don't believe in God" (as many want to imply).
It doesn't say "People who believe in God are bad".
It doesn't even claim that "God doesn't exist" (although, that could be clearer by adding 'a belief in' between require and God).

The only way you COULD be offended by this is you believe that if someone doesn't believe in God, that automatically makes them not a "Good person", no matter what else they do in life.

And the people who believe that are the a-holes.

CrankMyBlueSax

2009-07-06 03:01:17 PM

This thread is getting stale. Can we have a new thread where we can assert that theists are stupid?

fuzzywois

2009-07-06 03:11:45 PM

letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Well, there would be a difference, but it wouldn't matter what that difference is.

BUT! I agree with the troll. What is RELIGION? Dictionary terms, even philosophical terms...usually, anyway, depending on who you 'believe' (u hoh, philosophy could be merely faith??? ok, no, different topic for a different day).... but anyway, FAITH in a NEGATIVE is still faith.

There was another remark... not collecting stamps is a hobby. Well, it is, if that's what you specifically focus on. If I meet a person who purposely avoids collecting stamps, i would ascribe them that hobby. Now, however, i do not collect stamps, but i have never really given stamp collecting much of a thought. Do i still have that hobby of not stamp collecting? Hmmm, difficult to say. So if someone actively believes in the non-existence of God, he or she has a belief system centered around the non-existence of god/supreme being/metaphysical-slash-intelligent designer(s). But take someone else, who doesn't believe in god only because it doesn't matter to him... does he still have a religion? I suppose he does... a non-practicing atheist? I mean, if you were baptized christian but don't do anything related to that faith because it merely doesn't matter, are you still a christian? Probably not. Only then would I say you are non-religious. You don't think about it; it doesn't matter; it doesn't guide your overall path in life. So if you have enough conviction to say "I am an atheist.", where does that leave you? There's shades of gray...

So maybe, maybe if you adhere to a certain definition of religion, that atheism isn't a religion because you don't have a congregation of followers or a set of symbols or rituals... maybe if that's how you define religion, then ok... maybe atheism isn't a religion. But it is still a very specific set of beliefs centered around the ultimate (unprovable) truth of "There is no god." But at the very most, by other definitions of religion, which only require you have a belief system revolving around something , then atheism is a religion.

I guess letrole is wrong... atheism can take the form> of religion, depending on just how much a person's beliefs matter to his or her lifestyle.

2009-07-06 03:12:14 PM

CrankMyBlueSax: Can we have a new thread where we can assert that theists are stupid?

It's next to the one about your mom.

Ha ha.

See? Get it? It's a "your mom" joke.

Christ Jesus, I'm witty. See what I did there?

seamus james

2009-07-06 03:42:04 PM

fuzzywois: letrole: If you're an Atheist, then there is no moral difference between killing a man and blowing out a candle.

Well, there would be a difference, but it wouldn't matter what that difference is.

BUT! I agree with the troll. What is RELIGION? Dictionary terms, even philosophical terms...usually, anyway, depending on who you 'believe' (u hoh, philosophy could be merely faith??? ok, no, different topic for a different day).... but anyway, FAITH in a NEGATIVE is still faith.

"Faith: not wanting to know what it true."

Faith is a conviction in belief without justification. Atheists justify their lack of belief through logic, be it with philosophy, science, or some combination thereof.

/Philosophy major
//Basically an atheist (I don't like certainty or truth, but I don't believe in god).

Mykeru

2009-07-06 03:51:14 PM

Khanmots: how would you disprove the hypothesis that undetectable entities are undetetable

Since when does anyone have to prove a negative?

2009-07-06 06:09:23 PM

seamus james: Faith is a conviction in belief without justification. Atheists justify their lack of belief through logic, be it with philosophy, science, or some combination thereof.

Not so much "without justification" as "justified only by assertion under quia ego sic dico".

www.ealasaid.com

Of course, logic, mathematics, and science all are inferences from more basic ideas... which ultimately run into...
img529.imageshack.us

2009-07-06 06:28:25 PM

God stopped by my house, earlier. Pretty amazing, I think.

Anyhoo, I had all these questions... if he exists, why doesn't he do something about all the problems in his creation and which religious notions are correct and...

Anyhoo... he smiled at me, leaned in and said "None of that is the point". Then he made what was probably the most incredible sandwich, ever, got into a flaming chariot and before he flew into the sky as it parted, he said "Stop trying to break things you don't know how to fix and the world will take care of itself".

I wish he'd told me how to make that sandwich.

2009-07-06 06:43:17 PM

fuzzywois: But it is still a very specific set of beliefs centered around the ultimate (unprovable) truth of "There is no god." But at the very most, by other definitions of religion, which only require you have a belief system revolving around something , then atheism is a religion.

So... If you name any particular God/pantheon and ascribe a religion to it and ask anyone if they believe, you are in fact creating TWO religions: those who worship, and those who do not? Everyone has an infinite number of religions: one they probably belong to, and all the infinite possibilities they do not belong to?

Because that's creating a pretty weak and pointless definition of "religion" there, and one nobody uses when they identify themselves as belonging to... you know... a religion.

seamus james

2009-07-06 06:56:31 PM

abb3w: seamus james: Faith is a conviction in belief without justification. Atheists justify their lack of belief through logic, be it with philosophy, science, or some combination thereof.

Not so much "without justification" as "justified only by assertion under quia ego sic dico".

Of course, logic, mathematics, and science all are inferences from more basic ideas... which ultimately run into...

Well, that depends. If you accept Kant's ontology, then the "inferences from more basic ideas" that you're speaking of are resolved.

Of course, if you subscribe continental philosophy, in the way of say Nietzsche or Heidegger, then you're right. Nietzsche railed against a belief in science just as much as a belief in religion (particularly in the Genealogy and the Gay Science). But then, if that's the point your making, faith in anything lacks a foundation. Hence, the basis for Nihilism (an -ism I've often ascribed to my particular line of thought).

2009-07-06 07:00:41 PM

skeptic99: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

And not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Be quiet, you dirty aphilatelist.

2009-07-06 08:27:54 PM

seamus james: If you accept Kant's ontology, then the "inferences from more basic ideas" that you're speaking of are resolved.

The steps of inference from the more basic ideas are pretty well established, correct.

My point is the remaining reliance on those more (or "most") basic ideas. While there are several ways to get various equivalent Logics for inference between propositions, they all start with some underlying rules/Axioms. And those ideas rest on... well, not much.

seamus james: But then, if that's the point your making, faith in anything lacks a foundation.

Close to the point, not quite; my point is to give the Theists their devils' due, and not a bit more.

Yes, Faith can be a foundation; and if you go down far enough, yes, even Science (as a philosophical discipline) ultimately takes a few points on Faith... but those ultimate points for Science are fewer, more basic, and different than what most people think they are.

And mostly, those ultimate points are taken (at least implicitly) as part of the foundations of Faith by other creeds.

TheMysteriousStranger

2009-07-06 09:25:26 PM

limeyfellow:
The really weird thing about that is Darwin was a Anglican Minister for his whole adult life. Some people really need a good smack.

Darwin was NEVER an Anglican Minister.

He did earn a degree that was largely aimed at becoming one on the theory that a gentlemen should have a profession. If he had not gotten the chance to go on the Beagle his family would have bought him his position -- literally how it was done back then. Of course that profession would have left him with plenty of free time to do what he wanted to do: pursue natural history and indeed many Anglican ministers did exactly that.

While Darwin did think the Bible could be some kind of authority when he took his famous voyage, that was unusual in his social circles. After the voyage until the 1860s or so he appears to have been some kind of deist and afterwards some sort of agnostic.

TheMysteriousStranger

2009-07-06 09:28:19 PM

Militant atheism or agnosticism is when you publicly mention that you are not a believer.

Militant theism is when you massacre people for religious reasons -- unless the people are those society wants to die.

ZipSplat

2009-07-06 09:31:28 PM

Vash's Apprentice: Some people can't be helped

Timothy McVeigh was not insane. He was immersed in conspiracy theories so long without counterpoint that it became his reality. It is a testament to not only the importance curbing conspiracy theorist culture, but of what happens when peoples' information sources become insular the the point of credulousness.

2009-07-06 11:40:07 PM

TheMysteriousStranger: Militant atheism or agnosticism is when you publicly mention that you are not a believer.

Militant theism is when you massacre people for religious reasons -- unless the people are those society wants to die.

Yeah, that's about right.

2009-07-07 12:59:52 AM

Kliffoth: TheMysteriousStranger: Militant atheism or agnosticism is when you publicly mention that you are not a believer.

Militant theism is when you massacre people for religious reasons -- unless the people are those society wants to die.

Yeah, that's about right.

not really, but it's not surprising your self deception and rationalization make you believe that. Well that along with a lot of rhetoric by others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism#Atheism_and_totalitarian_reg im es (pops)

img22.imageshack.us

2009-07-07 02:14:40 AM

kerpal32: Kliffoth: TheMysteriousStranger: Militant atheism or agnosticism is when you publicly mention that you are not a believer.

Militant theism is when you massacre people for religious reasons -- unless the people are those society wants to die.

Yeah, that's about right.

not really, but it's not surprising your self deception and rationalization make you believe that. Well that along with a lot of rhetoric by others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism#Atheism_and_totalitarian_reg im es (pops)

*YAWN* I tire of you, find someone else to play with.

2009-07-07 03:26:03 AM

bunner: I wish he'd told me how to make that sandwich.

He didn't tell you? He told me how to make it last week. The secret can be yours for 3 easy payments of $199.95.

2009-07-07 03:27:09 AM

In other news, Hitler was a stamp collector. According to stamp collectors, if a stamp collector kills millions of people, he must not have been a true stamp collector.

The stupid, it burns.

2009-07-07 08:54:12 AM

kerpal32: your self deception and rationalization make you believe that

img529.imageshack.us

2009-07-07 10:01:12 AM

abb3w:

img503.imageshack.us

FTFY.

Klifforth - I tire of you and your old busted big-ass bag of hate too. Stop acting like some brainwashed anti-theist dweeb, or take it back to Dawkins.Net with the other brainwashed losers.

img218.imageshack.us

2009-07-07 06:00:47 PM

kerpal32: Kliffoth: TheMysteriousStranger: Militant atheism or agnosticism is when you publicly mention that you are not a believer.

Militant theism is when you massacre people for religious reasons -- unless the people are those society wants to die.

Yeah, that's about right.

not really, but it's not surprising your self deception and rationalization make you believe that. Well that along with a lot of rhetoric by others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism#Atheism_and_totalitarian_reg im es (pops)

You have never said anything that wasnt an attack on atheists.

God doesnt need your help.

2009-07-07 07:34:28 PM

kerpal32: Klifforth - I tire of you and your old busted big-ass bag of hate too. Stop acting like some brainwashed anti-theist dweeb, or take it back to Dawkins.Net with the other brainwashed losers.

I can say, with all honesty, that there is not one person I hate for being religious.

There are plenty of religious ideas I do find rediculous.

You have time and again shown your failure at grasping the difference between those two statements.

2009-07-07 07:49:29 PM

So far as I can tell, the greatest difference between the atheists and theists in this thread seems to be their opinions about human nature.

A few theists have insisted that humans are naturally cruel and savage, that we have no innate inclination towards altruism. (It is a scientific fact that human beings and our nearest evolutionary cousins have a natural predisposition towards altruistic behavior as demonstrated in comparative studies involving infants of both the human and chimpanzee species.)

More distressingly, genner could not comprehend why an atheist farker would care about the fate of humanity beyond their own lifetime.

It's tempting to conclude that these people have no inborn altruistic instinct, that they are sociopaths who would not be able to control themselves and behave ethically if not for their religious beliefs. Worst are those like genner who feel no loyalty for their own species, no desire to ensure its longterm survival in the absence of a personal reward.

I know this conclusion must be untrue. Perhaps they believe themselves to be selfish sociopaths, so they assume everyone else must be inwardly the same. That would explain why they are so confused by an atheist's eagerness to improve the human condition. They can't comprehend a sincere emotional investment in ones own species, an urgent desire to see others fed and sheltered which derives from natural empathy rather than scriptural teachings.

A Christian behaves for the same neurological reasons an atheist does. They just don't realize it, as they've been raised to credit their religious ruleset for everything in life that they do right.

2009-07-07 08:26:08 PM

Kliffoth: I can say, with all honesty, that there is not one person I hate for being religious.

I can say with all honesty that your snarky, sarcastic, mocking, ridiculing, narrow-minded, bigoted, indoctrinated, trolling comments on Fark make that really hard to believe about you.

A lot like Zamboro, who though he has a bigoted, narrow-minded, elitist mentality and is probably two pep rallies and a blog post shy of goose stepping his way toward demanding camps be opened to take care of anyone who disagrees with him. But I think you're able to see that about yourself, whereas he can't.

/my favorites are the elitist mentality and moral imperatives he applies to his rationalize the bigotries he has. It's almost as disturbing as some of the other aspects about his past and playing the victim when it is opportunistic for him.

2009-07-07 08:35:27 PM

guyinjeep16: You have never said anything that wasnt an attack on atheists.

Untrue. All I do is point out your ignorance, fallacies and biases. You just don't like it when I'm a dick to people being dicks. Including you.

You set atheism back 30 years.

/still insist science has to provide some immediate value or must be empirically testable?

2009-07-07 09:09:05 PM

kerpal32: "You just don't like it when I'm a dick to people being dicks. Including you."

How can not realize that this is just your rationalization for being a vicious, predatory douchebag? You're an awful human being but you escape that realization by blaming your behavior on the very atheists you antagonize.

Do you think anyone takes you seriously here? Do you think they listen to you, like you, and think your contributions are valuable? Do you imagine that most Farkers stand behind you and your opinions while the atheists you revile are in the minority? Exactly how many people do you consider to be in this "cabal" you often talk about?

You're like Samsaran and Czarangelus combined, yet you seem to think that you're a Farker in good standing. I don't understand this.

2009-07-07 09:18:53 PM

Zamboro: You're like Samsaran and Czarangelus combined, yet you seem to think that you're a Farker in good standing. I don't understand this.

Histrionic Personality Disorder Symptoms

* Is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention

* Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior

* Displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions

* Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

* Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail

* Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion

* Is suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances

* Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

2009-07-07 09:19:37 PM

I do have something to point out that you might appreciate, kerpal. Some time ago, a curious Farker did a WHOIS on Bevets' website. Alarmingly, it revealed all of his personal information. Real name, street address, the whole nine yards.

Bevets, most despised fundie-bot on Fark, made completely vulnerable to real-life harrassment. Given your cartoonish perception of me, wouldn't you assume I'd be the first to jump on that opportunity? Yet I haven't. I've no interest in it and to the best of my knowledge nobody else has done anything with the info.

Given full access to your personal information, the same thing would happen. Although you see many Fark atheists as cruel monsters and they perceive you the same way, the proof is in the pudding.

2009-07-07 09:32:20 PM

kerpal32: guyinjeep16: You have never said anything that wasnt an attack on atheists.

Untrue. All I do is point out your ignorance, fallacies and biases. You just don't like it when I'm a dick to people being dicks. Including you.

You set atheism back 30 years.

/still insist science has to provide some immediate value or must be empirically testable?

How does god feel about you being a liar?

Never said anything of the sort.

I see rational arguments being made, and I see you name calling.

2009-07-07 10:09:28 PM

Kliffoth: I can say, with all honesty, that there is not one person I hate for being religious.

I hate you for the religious fervor you possess in not hating people for being religious.

2009-07-07 10:27:27 PM

guyinjeep16: Never said anything of the sort.

bullshiat. abb3w even corrected you on it.

2009-07-07 10:32:34 PM

kerpal32: guyinjeep16: Never said anything of the sort.

bullshiat. abb3w even corrected you on it.

Of course not everything is testable you dolt.

I said the goal when studying science is to get to the point where it is testable.

You must have been cursing, name calling, and missed it.

What a shock.

2009-07-07 10:37:57 PM

Zamboro: How can not realize that this is just your rationalization for being a vicious, predatory douchebag?

project much? that is when you're not playing the victim?

2009-07-07 10:43:31 PM

kerpal32: "project much?"

...Says the guy who accuses me of being an aspiring brownshirt.....

kerpal32: "that is when you're not playing the victim?"

....while stirring up hate against a 'conspiratorial cabal' he believes is stalking him across Fark?

2009-07-07 10:44:27 PM

Zamboro: Given full access to your personal information, the same thing would happen.

btw - you're projecting again. or do you forget....

2009-07-07 10:47:03 PM

Zamboro: ....while stirring up hate against a 'conspiratorial cabal' he believes is stalking him across Fark?

How can you stalk him across Fark? I only stalk him to the grocery store.

2009-07-07 10:54:53 PM

Zamboro: Do you think anyone takes you seriously here? Do you think they listen to you, like you, and think your contributions are valuable? Do you imagine that most Farkers stand behind you and your opinions while the atheists you revile are in the minority? Exactly how many people do you consider to be in this "cabal" you often talk about?

You're like Samsaran and Czarangelus combined, yet you seem to think that you're a Farker in good standing. I don't understand this.

I use the term "clique" in the pejorative sense of the word. You should research it. You and your pals seem to have delusions about being a "cabal".

There's a lot you obviously don't understand or consider. Including how you're viewed on Fark.

2009-07-07 11:05:30 PM

cthellis: How can you stalk him across Fark? I only stalk him to the grocery store.

Huh, I thought I saw you at Safeway...

2009-07-07 11:32:08 PM

Zamboro: "btw - you're projecting again. or do you forget...."

It's precisely my point. Consider what you did when that opportunity presented itself. For all your moral posturing, you chose vengeance.

Do you think I'd do the same to you, given the chance? That's your justification for your behavior, right? "I'm a dick to people being dicks." Are we, in fact, dicks? Are we as bad as you, or even worse? Would you care to find out?

Make yourself vulnerable to me. Email me all of the personal information I would need to make your life miserable. If you're right about me, you know exactly what will happen. But what if nothing happens?

2009-07-07 11:32:26 PM

ninjakirby: Huh, I thought I saw you at Safeway...

As if you'd ever go somewhere so high-class as Safeway.

2009-07-07 11:43:21 PM

Whups, that should read kerpal32 for the quoted bit.

kerpal32: "I use the term "clique" in the pejorative sense of the word. You should research it. You and your pals seem to have delusions about being a "cabal"."

That's what's so boring about you. When it's suggested that you're furiously obsessed, you recoil and pretend at patronizing apathy. "What? I've spent my entire Fark career spitting venom at atheists? Oh please, as if I care about such a pathetic bunch...."

It's posturing, and I've never seen you stop for a moment or even slow the pace.

kerpal32: "There's a lot you obviously don't understand or consider. Including how you're viewed on Fark."

Quite well in fact. It's only those marked red that I don't get along with, and there's just a few of those. Everyone in green (they number well over 1,400) I've had no issue with, and in fact I've received much appreciated fan mail and TotalFark sponsorships from a number of them.

But then you're trying to shift the focus of the discussion, aren't you. Do you think you're well regarded on Fark? Do you think most take you seriously and approve of your demeanor?

2009-07-07 11:51:55 PM

Zamboro: Whups, that should read kerpal32 for the quoted bit.

kerpal32: "I use the term "clique" in the pejorative sense of the word. You should research it. You and your pals seem to have delusions about being a "cabal"."

That's what's so boring about you. When it's suggested that you're furiously obsessed, you recoil and pretend at patronizing apathy. "What? I've spent my entire Fark career spitting venom at atheists? Oh please, as if I care about such a pathetic bunch...."

It's posturing, and I've never seen you stop for a moment or even slow the pace.

kerpal32: "There's a lot you obviously don't understand or consider. Including how you're viewed on Fark."

Quite well in fact. It's only those marked red that I don't get along with, and there's just a few of those. Everyone in green (they number well over 1,400) I've had no issue with, and in fact I've received much appreciated fan mail and TotalFark sponsorships from a number of them.

But then you're trying to shift the focus of the discussion, aren't you. Do you think you're well regarded on Fark? Do you think most take you seriously and approve of your demeanor?

He simply cannot stop himself from name calling. He has a deep seated hatred for atheists. AND he is a liar about having atheist friends. Plus the fact that he doesnt read well enough to understand what the poster is saying.
He has misquoted other farkers more than anyone I have ever seen on FARK.

2009-07-08 12:05:35 AM

kerpal32: I can say with all honesty that your snarky, sarcastic, mocking, ridiculing, narrow-minded, bigoted, indoctrinated, trolling comments on Fark make that really hard to believe about you.

More adjectives please!

You really think you're getting a rise out of me? I have a personal rule: I don't let things anonymous jackasses say on the net get to me, ever.

Your description of my comments are false. Please provide quotes backing up your claims. Otherwise you're obviously a troll (as if we didn't know that anyway).

You fail yet again sir.

cthellis: I hate you for the religious fervor you possess in not hating people for being religious.

Fair enough.

2009-07-08 03:31:24 PM

kerpal32: All I do is point out your ignorance, fallacies and biases.

img529.imageshack.us

Zamboro: How can not realize that this is just your rationalization for concrete manifestion of your impulses toward being a vicious, predatory douchebag?

FTFY.

ninjakirby: * Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

Kinda hard to do that on the internet. Could that be expressed alternately by using lots of pictures, bold text, and large text?

ninjakirby: * Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

Such as the relationship of "involvement in the atheist clique/cabal"?

guyinjeep16: Never said anything of the sort.
kerpal32: bullshiat. abb3w even corrected you on it.

I corrected him on something of the sort, although Google isn't coughing up the link readily. (I don't think it was that exact point, but one close enough for work in the nuclear navy.) While kerpal32 is a bit of an ass, he's correct in noting that guyinjeep16 is a little fuzzy about inherent limitations in reasoning, and thus in the limits of science.

Zamboro: Do you think you're well regarded on Fark? Do you think most take you seriously and approve of your demeanor?

If you break him, you will be the one with the moral obligation to pick up the pieces.

2009-07-08 04:19:48 PM

abb3w: Kinda hard to do that on the internet. Could that be expressed alternately by using lots of pictures, bold text, and large text?

Rule 32, biatch.

abb3w: Such as the relationship of "involvement in the atheist clique/cabal"?

That's not what you said at our last meeting-slash-picnic-lunch.

2009-07-08 04:51:14 PM

abb3w: ninjakirby: * Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to self

Kinda hard to do that on the internet. Could that be expressed alternately by using lots of pictures, bold text, and large text?

ninjakirby: * Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

Such as the relationship of "involvement in the atheist clique/cabal"?

Oh, I'm fairly certain a number of the others apply, but the internet merely limits their applicability. Especially the intimate one, given his history of looking peoples personal information up, or calling them by their first names, etc.

2009-07-08 06:23:53 PM

I'm sure glad he doesn't know my name is Bufort McKokkenbahlz.

2009-07-08 06:51:45 PM

abb3w: While kerpal32 is a bit of an ass, he's correct in noting that guyinjeep16 is a little fuzzy about inherent limitations in reasoning, and thus in the limits of science.

I remember what I said , and it was along the lines of this: I believe that all things can eventually be tested scientifically. I may have also said UNDER A CERTAN CONTEXT, that something would needed to be testable to come to a conclusion. NOT EVEYTHING.

Of course not everything can be tested empirically, why would you have a discussion with someone who said otherwise?

Kerpal32 has continuously misquoted me and missread what I have said, over and over again. This isnt the first time you have jumped in on his bad information.

The reason you cant find it, is because I didnt say it.

/The ultimate goal IS to make things testable.

2009-07-08 07:33:58 PM

2009-07-09 12:48:39 AM

guyinjeep16: I believe that all things can eventually be tested scientifically.

How, praytell, do you test that?

guyinjeep16: Kerpal32 has continuously misquoted me and missread what I have said, over and over again.

Welcome to the club.

guyinjeep16: This isnt the first time you have jumped in on his bad information.

I will give even Lucifer Mekratrig his due... albeit only what, where, and sofaras earned. While kerpal32 may be the wrong end of the horse, he's not an idiot. On the other hand, while I feel he frequently overstates some of the limits of science, I feel you fail to recognize them; and worse, fail to significantly and counterproductive degree.

guyinjeep16: The reason you cant find it, is because I didnt say it.

Mmmm... no, I'm fairly certain he's used the word "scientism" in discussing your position despite null return, and even more certain Google's search (gasp!) frequently returns incomplete results despite web pages out there (even excluding deliberate darkweb). I expect I could find the relevant thread by checking through my Farkery bookmarks, but am too drunk and lazy at present.

guyinjeep16: /The ultimate goal IS to make things testable.

Close; "establish in community some means of testing" might be closer. "Retain what withstands testing", closer yet... perhaps even to within theological limits.

guyinjeep16: It looks like you are trying to make a philosophical assertion. On what basis would you like to make it?

Exhibited heuristic behavior!

As an inference, taken as conclusion by reliance on more fundamental propositions.

The first of these fundamentals is the proposition of Commutativity of Logical Inclusive Disjunction; which is to say, that (P OR Q) is logically equivalent to to (Q OR P) such that either may be inferred from the other. Do you care to object to this?

img359.imageshack.us

2009-07-09 01:17:06 AM

abb3w: guyinjeep16: I believe that all things can eventually be tested scientifically.

How, praytell, do you test that?

You dont test it, its just a personal belief and doesnt have any bearing.

2009-07-09 01:20:12 AM

abb3w: guyinjeep16: This isnt the first time you have jumped in on his bad information.

I will give even Lucifer Mekratrig his due... albeit only what, where, and sofaras earned. While kerpal32 may be the wrong end of the horse, he's not an idiot. On the other hand, while I feel he frequently overstates some of the limits of science, I feel you fail to recognize them; and worse, fail to significantly and counterproductive degree.

Again, listening to Kerpals incorrect missunderstandings of me?