Yeah, having to actually pay for things sucks doesn't it.

Doppleganger871: But, imagine this happening to everyone else who is taken care of under state-run medical coverage. Not too far-fetched.

Medicaid isn't state-run medical coverage. It's a last-resort loan given by the state when you have no medical coverage left and virtually no assets remaining.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.


It is. And in this case it's completely irrelevant and a poor analogy. The veterans in your story were very much alive and near the beginnings of their adult lives. The veteran in the article is FARKING DEAD. And the state took care of him until he died.

Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

olddinosaur: "sum Dum Gai:" You are probably technically correct, but I am practically correct.

If I owe you money and I croak, what I own stands good for what I owe, so I intend to croak owing as little as possible.

If you wish to launch a lawsuit against my estate, trying to recover $1-5K in debt by seizing a piece of land worth $10-15 K, at a cost of $25 K+, be my guest! You may win---but if you do, you will be like the King of Phyrrus, who said after winning a battle at too high a cost: "One more victory like that, and I am ruined!"

The general idea is, hold as little property as you can and sell off everything before you die, so that you die broke, or as near so as possible.

This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

My father passed away recently, and owned a house in Key West worth $960 large, but also owing huge medical bills for many years of long-term care. He retired worth almost a million, but he died broke.

And yes, he put his ass on the line: Navy Commander, 20 years' service, Navy Cross, Purple Heart, Air Medal, WW II Victory Medal, and numerous lesser citations.

So your father was honest and paid his bills. I honor his character and his service. Whether you had any right to his assets as opposed to the people who cared for him apparently isn't a question that concerns you.

Your plan is to cheat your creditors, and hope that recovery would be impractical. It's not "legal", but it might work. Whether it is moral or ethical I'll leave to you.

Sum Dum Gai: Doppleganger871: But, imagine this happening to everyone else who is taken care of under state-run medical coverage. Not too far-fetched.

Medicaid isn't state-run medical coverage. It's a last-resort loan given by the state when you have no medical coverage left and virtually no assets remaining.


Correct. I believe you have to have less than $2,500 to your name before they'll step in -- at least I think that's the number they gave us when my mom became terminally ill a couple of years ago.

So I'm not sure how a guy with an estate worth $70k got the benefits. (?)

/didn't RTFA

I guess he didn't listen to Obama and get Private Insurance to pay the VA back for his medical bills. So his family is basically SOL.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Veterans groups are angry after President Obama told them Monday that he is still considering a proposal to have treatment for service-connected injuries charged to veterans' private insurance plans.
President Obama, with Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shineski, spoke with leaders of veterans groups Monday.

President Obama, with Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shineski, spoke with leaders of veterans groups Monday.

Leaders of the country's most prominent veterans groups met Monday at the White House with Obama, Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and Steven Kosiak, the director in charge of defense spending for the Office of Management and Budget.

Some of the veterans groups were caught off guard when the president said the administration is still thinking about the idea as a way of generating $540 million for the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2010. The groups and some members of Congress have been very vocal in opposing the idea.

The message, according to some of the people in the room, was that if the groups do not like this idea, they need to come back with another way of saving or raising revenue for the VA.

"I got the distinct impression that the only hope of this plan not being enacted is for an alternative plan to be developed that would generate the desired $540 million in revenue," Cmdr. David Rehbein of the American Legion said in a written statement.

But the chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs vowed Tuesday that the plan would never gain the panel's approval.

Obama and the VA (new window)

olddinosaur: "sum Dum Gai:" You are probably technically correct, but I am practically correct.

If I owe you money and I croak, what I own stands good for what I owe, so I intend to croak owing as little as possible.

If you wish to launch a lawsuit against my estate, trying to recover $1-5K in debt by seizing a piece of land worth $10-15 K, at a cost of $25 K+, be my guest! You may win---but if you do, you will be like the King of Phyrrus, who said after winning a battle at too high a cost: "One more victory like that, and I am ruined!"

The general idea is, hold as little property as you can and sell off everything before you die, so that you die broke, or as near so as possible.

This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

My father passed away recently, and owned a house in Key West worth $960 large, but also owing huge medical bills for many years of long-term care. He retired worth almost a million, but he died broke.

And yes, he put his ass on the line: Navy Commander, 20 years' service, Navy Cross, Purple Heart, Air Medal, WW II Victory Medal, and numerous lesser citations.

So you're a farking scumsucking douchebag who borrows money without intention of paying it back?

Good to know.

Injuries received while serving are covered by the VA. My dad's hearing loss, and back problems are covered because they are a direct result of his service in Vietnam. Those are the only things he gets treated for at the VA. Anything else that happens to him gets covered by his regular health insurance.

It sucks for this guy and his wife but it seems that either no one explained things to him or he was just confused. Any treatment he recieved for his workplace injury wouldn't be covered by the VA.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Ya know I came in here to rant but... well... you got it man. Can't add anything to that.

Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

olddinosaur: This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

Well, if he transferred it, he'd potentially need to pay a gift tax, plus any gifted amount (where this = value of the asset - price he sells it for) will count against his medicaid eligibility for five years. So he would have had to divest the assets at least five years in advance. Plus, of course, they'd have no way of knowing five years ahead of time which of the two might need medical care -- had he given all assets to her, and she was the one in a nursing home, they'd lose everything.

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because when I pay my plumber the problem better stay fixed. Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.
Obviously the doctors failed if he died. At the very least he should get a discount.

/when I get old and require medical treatment I will demand a lifetime guarantee

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

Good farking plan.

/Copy and paste.

Mrs_J: Injuries received while serving are covered by the VA. My dad's hearing loss, and back problems are covered because they are a direct result of his service in Vietnam. Those are the only things he gets treated for at the VA. Anything else that happens to him gets covered by his regular health insurance.

Yup. The VA fully pays for indefinite nursing home stays for any veteran disabled in service. Apart from that, though, just like private insurance there are limits to how long (or if) they'll pay for nursing homes. Medicare will cover a nursing home at first, but once that's out, you have to either have private insurance, personal funds, or medicaid.

It sucks for this guy and his wife but it seems that either no one explained things to him or he was just confused. Any treatment he recieved for his workplace injury wouldn't be covered by the VA.

Yeah, that is one major problem with our complicated health care system, especially for seniors. They really need a financial adviser figure to help them navigate what is, even to a younger person, a complicated web of different programs. When you take into account many seniors no longer have the degree of mental alertness that they once had, navigating medicare/private insurance/medicaid/VA benefits/etc. can be a huge task.

If the VA doesn't already offer, they should offer free financial planning to veterans and their families, and they should be actively reminding eligible people every year or two that they should take advantage of these advisers.

budsterr: famousp:

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because when I pay my plumber the problem better stay fixed. Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.
Obviously the doctors failed if he died. At the very least he should get a discount.

/when I get old and require medical treatment I will demand a lifetime guarantee

So under your theory, any MD who treats someone with a terminal condition should get stiffed? Wow! My sister died last month from stage 4 breast cancer and pancreatic cancer. The caregivers who made her last months tolerable deserve to be paid and be able to support their families, regardless of your demented views.

apiarist: Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

eqtworld: Link (new window)

That was on the TV last night.

It sucks for his estate but this is no different than any of us running up $300k in medical bills then kicking the bucket.

Not to be a Troll, but the only person I have heard float the idea of Veterans paying back for injurys that occured durning service is President Obama. Link (new window)

Monty845: apiarist:

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

I was assuming that he paid FMV, and it was not a sham transaction. Sham transactions will get you just as far as the tax protesters who claim that US Dollars are not income as defined by the tax code, and therefore are not taxable.

It's his fault for getting sick and not having a proper professional career to pay his bills.

Monty845: apiarist: Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

I paid market value, financed 100%. Didn't do it because she was dying, but to rid her of some debt. Worked out great for both of us. She got to live with me until her death 5 years later. Worked out well for both of us. Since the market crash I owe more than it's worth, but will continue to pay for it as my sig is my bond.

Nice living in a country with public health care.

After my parents pass away, I'm going to quit my job and sell everything I own so I can travel the world. Then, I'm going to run up massive credit card debt so I can travel the world some more. Then, I'm going to blow my head off.

/Suck it

apiarist: Monty845: apiarist:

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

I was assuming that he paid FMV, and it was not a sham transaction. Sham transactions will get you just as far as the tax protesters who claim that US Dollars are not income as defined by the tax code, and therefore are not taxable.

It wasn't clear to me from the comment, your assumption is certainly a fair one. Just the other $10 sale comments near it made it sound to me like the commentor was implying they had gotten away with it

SuperDuper28: It sucks for his estate but this is no different than any of us running up $300k in medical bills then kicking the bucket.

When you risk everything for your country's agenda your country should take care of you.

poisonedpawn78
Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

So your argument for state run healthcare is to point out the glaring fault of state run healthcare?

Poppa Boner
When you risk everything for your country's agenda your country should take care of you.

When you're no longer risking everything for your country's agenda, and you get hurt while doing something for your own agenda, the country has no obligation to you. The VA system should be for service related problems and the retirees who put in the 20 years to get the entitlement.

\Vet

Wraithbane: poisonedpawn78
Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

So your argument for state run healthcare is to point out the glaring fault of state run healthcare?

Socialized health care does not require 277,000$ payments when used.

You can overgeneralize all you want to simplify it down for your own brain, in the end you know socialized medicine through taxation is the right and humane way to go. Bankrupting families because corrupt companies want their share is not.

DaShredda: I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Soldiers are heroes because they have the balls to do what cowards like you would wet their panties whilst running away from.
Plus, a pretty large amount of us are black, latino, and asian and have come to find out that the rednecks are absolutely the first guys that we want watching our backs.

olddinosaur: "apiarist:" I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.

If I had $1 billion plus, that would be a different story, but I am a fairly modest man, not at all rich.

As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.

I owned a piece of land, sold it to someone, contingent that I could live there all my life, and cancel at any time.

They agreed to the terms, I agreed to sell. Fair dinkum, cobber.

Case closed.

In this case you are correct. As long as the creditors don't hold the title, they can't go after anything you don't own.

The only thing you risk in this case is if you somehow had a falling out with the people that have granted you permission to use the land. If they wanted, they could pursue an eviction. You might even legally be correct, but we both know that in this country your rights only go so far as the cash you are willing to spend in litigation.

Of course, that's why the whole thing is called a trust. And for the smaller sized estates/holdings you won't run into that sort of crazed greed (hopefully, but I've seen families split over as little as $10k)


If you are doing this to avoid some of the shadier aspects of creditors (those that try for more than they really are owed), I don't have an issue.

However, If you are borrowing or running up a debt with a person with the intention of preventing them from collecting upon that debt, then you are being very unethical, and while I have enjoyed your advice in the past, I would look down upon you for that.

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

Congratulations. You've just made all your property available to not only your own creditors, but all the creditors and potential ex-wives of your "friends" who hold bare title to it. Cunning plan, indeed!

This is typical of the tax people in Iowa. They are ruthless. I have had my run-in's with those bastards over the years and have learned that they will try to tax anything they think they can get their hands on. They even show up at flea markets on Sunday's and hand out tax forms expecting people to cough up on the spot.

Best advice...don't live, earn income, or die in Iowa.

Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.



And that is why we have the high cost of health care. People ripping off the system raises the costs for everyone.

poisonedpawn78: Anyone who thinks the system you have now for healthcare is better than the way most other socialized countries run theirs are complete fools.

Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

Hate to break it to you buddy, but "socialized medicine" isn't some magical box that produces quality medical care at no cost to anyone. There is no such critter.

M. Thatcher : "The problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other's peoples' money to spend."

That said, Medicaid/Medicare does an adequate job for what they are - safety nets.
Which ARE paid for - if not by the person they help then by the rest of us.

My Mom - should she live long enough - will eventually run out of savings to pay for her nursing home care. At that point her pension (Post Office) and her SS will be re-allocated to maintain her where she is - minus an allowance for personal spending like the occasional vending machine treat or small purchase.

Should her putative heirs expect others to pay for her care while leaving her personal wealth (such as it is) sacrosanct?

I would be surprised if the value of the medical care this guy got over the years doesn't amount to a heck of a lot more than his remaining assets. As his (common-law) wife, she MAY have to sell one of the two homes - ONE house, a car, and some savings ($30k?) are exempt from collection in such cases. You don't get to keep a vacation or rental property you don't live in. And if she didn't marry him just to keep both houses while he was alive, she's lucky they didn't at least consider a fraud charge.

eqtworld: Thurg: Soldiers are heroes because they have the balls to do what cowards like you would wet their panties whilst running away from.

Like go half way around the world to fire the first shot against a sovereign nation because maybe they could have vague "WMDs"; then continue to kill people even when you realize you are there for no valid reason?

No, you will never see me trying to justify Iraq. Bush should be in prison, not at the ranch clearing brush.
Nice try though!

came here for all the libtards talking about ways to rip off paying for medical bills.
also came to see them whine about how expensive health care is (and somehow not realizing that when people don't pay their bills it raises the cost for everyone else).

So, wait, if I enlist in the military, get wounded in combat (twice), come home, then have a life-altering "accident" that confines me to a wheelchair for the rest of my life, I can rack up a farkload of bills and not be expected to pay for it? For real?

tag is for whoever thinks a free ride is in order.

I am just so sick of the way the government is NOT explaining things to people. Why not have something that explains how these things work.

I dont think that my mother understands either

FRTFA

One of the homes is valued at $42,920, she said, and the other is worth about $35,000. Both are in Bettendorf.

What kind of home is that cheap unless it is in Detroit?

WHEN YOU'RE >50 YOU NEED TO PLAN FOR THE EVENT OF DEATH.

All I got from this article is there were a couple of really farking ignorant folks living together.

Wraithbane: When you're no longer risking everything for your country's agenda, and you get hurt while doing something for your own agenda, the country has no obligation to you. The VA system should be for service related problems and the retirees who put in the 20 years to get the entitlement.

\Vet

F*ck that. There should be elementary healthcare services until death for anyone who is willing to put themselves in front of a bullet for their country's misguided bullshiat.

Barbecue Bob: olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.


/Copy and paste.

Another unethical person ripping off people, nice.

If you "sell" something at way below market value, it is a taxable event for the recipient and most ethical trustees (and people) would recognize it aa a ripoff and it invalidates the tax/shielding benefits of the transaction.

Animatronik:

I always heard it had something to do with Roman provincial officials offering food to starving Goths in exchange for using their daughters as concubines, and then forgetting to give them the food.

It was probably the same guys doing both.

The Roman Empire fell because Rome kept on taking in barbarians, treating them like inferiors, mistreating them, and using them as disposable troops, creating well trained and equipped enemies who hated the Romans and knew all of their tactics. The Roman Republic fell because a system was set up where the soldiers owed all of their loyalty to their general rather than the state, giving the generals enough power that they started to take on Rome itself.

That's what you get with socialized health care, amiright guys?

horonto: FRTFA

One of the homes is valued at $42,920, she said, and the other is worth about $35,000. Both are in Bettendorf.

What kind of home is that cheap unless it is in Detroit?

Bigger than my present apartment, and I pay about $800 a month.

apiarist: budsterr: famousp:

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because when I pay my plumber the problem better stay fixed. Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.
Obviously the doctors failed if he died. At the very least he should get a discount.

/when I get old and require medical treatment I will demand a lifetime guarantee

So under your theory, any MD who treats someone with a terminal condition should get stiffed? Wow! My sister died last month from stage 4 breast cancer and pancreatic cancer. The caregivers who made her last months tolerable deserve to be paid and be able to support their families, regardless of your demented views.

Failure to understand sarcasm is a sign of a diminished intellect. Good luck with that.

/sorry about your sister douchebag

Can we also recoup all of those welfare payments somehow?
Because as many of you are saying these government expenses are not free and need to be repaid by the estate of the decedent.
Oh, Liberals only want to get back payments from a veterans estate?

I read this an am thankful I'm a Canadian. I'm scared, though, because our right-wing ideologue Prime Minister wants reduce our hard-earned Universality.

You have a Medicaid, that has to be payed back? We have Medicare. It is free for everyone, and never has to be paid back. It's called Traditional Democratic Socialism. Yours is Third-Way social democracy at best.