In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Ennuipoet: I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

yep

Sad tag busy elsewhere, subby?

Too bad we don't have an utter farking disgrace tag.

basemetal: Ennuipoet: I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

yep

I hope you are both wrong.

That's what happens when you use Medicaid. The state that pays out Medicaid payments gets to bill your estate when you die. Actually, it's more than "gets to", the state is required by federal law to sue the estate to recover certain costs, including all nursing home care.

Weaver95: basemetal: Ennuipoet: I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

yep

I hope you are both wrong.

You hope history is boring?

Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

Sum Dum Gai: That's what happens when you use Medicaid. The state that pays out Medicaid payments gets to bill your estate when you die. Actually, it's more than "gets to", the state is required by federal law to sue the estate to recover certain costs, including all nursing home care.

Yes, when you go into a nursing home whatever you have in the way of social security, etc. gets signed over to them.

This guy no doubt received way more in benefits than his money will ever cover, sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I'd sign up for it.

/The problem with America is we don't seem to understand what an entitlement is and what things really cost. taking too much fro granted...

He should have taken the time to ensure his girlfriend would be in the clear once he died. Sounds like they assumed since she was part owner his half would automatically go to her, unfortunately, that isn't true.

I do love how they made her his "common law wife" so they could go after her specifically.

I'm sure all the "Support our Troops" magnets got him into heaven though.

It seems that his status as a veteran is incidental to this story. He received care under Medicaid, not veteran's benefits. I don't know why anyone would object to welfare beneficiaries paying back what they receive from their assets. Frankly, I wonder why he qualified in the first place.

You get medicaid while you have exempt assets and when you die they'll go after them.

It's probably not going to amount to anything in this case because I think the assets are still exempt so long as she lives. The state will get the property when she dies, though.

I see nothing wrong except perhaps a letter that's not clear enough.

Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

I always heard it had something to do with Roman provincial officials offering food to starving Goths in exchange for using their daughters as concubines, and then forgetting to give them the food.

It was probably the same guys doing both.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

It also doesn't really compare, does it? Complete failure to grasp the situation.

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

I certainly hope you didn't pay too much for that trust. It won't work that way in any jurisdiction with which I'm familiar. You can't transfer money from your left pocket to your right pocket and claim "This is no longer mine, although I can still use it freely. No creditor can claim it because I say so."

Laughable that anyone thinks that would be successful.

SnakeLee: You hope history is boring?

I know that's not the actual point you are referencing, but it does bring up something that bothers me. A lot of people DO find history boring. I never understood it until I took a University history course, and then it dawned on me. History's entertainment lies in how it is presented to you. Researching some obscure fact for a class you hate? Boring. Being forced to read about a subject that doesn't interest you, and written in prose that makes the sahara seem overly humid? Boring. Lecturer who drones on about the subject with minimal enthusiasm? Boring.

I like history when I read about stuff I'm passionate about, or when I hear historical facts/events as told by a dynamic (and obviously passionate) individual.

How hard do professors/educators/textbook publishers work to make subjects like the Roman Empire, the middle ages, and the cold war, so amazingly boring? Those are fascinating times, with amazing lessons and events. But because they're presented in the same manner as dry toast, most people assume history is boring by association.

It's maddening.

Subby says he owes VA but he was on Medicaid. So I am confused. VA should be a benefit and he wouldn't owe, otherwise he wouldn't have qualified to be there. Medicaid, on the other hand, loves to get its money back through estate recovery. Sounds like things weren't fully explained.

Mewling liberals, they think someone else should have to pay for their medical care. A veteran is man enough to die for his country when he is young, so he should be willing when he is old and destitute. It's disgraceful that so many of them turn into socialists when they get old.

Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Yes he was a vet but his injuries that required care were the result of a workplace injury in 1990, not something that happened in Vietnam. This isn't a VA issue, it's a Medicaid issue and he just happened to be using VA facilities.
Should the VA be taking care of vets who were injured in the line of duty free of charge? Yes. Should the VA be taking care of vets injured on the job 20 years later free of charge? No way. He spent his insurance pay-out on property instead of medical care.

I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

famousp: Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Getting your car or your plumbing fixed doesn't cost more then your entire assets accumulated over a lifetime.

I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

beer4breakfast: famousp: Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Getting your car or your plumbing fixed doesn't cost more then your entire assets accumulated over a lifetime.

Then you should die and let your assets pass intact to your heirs.

"apiarist:" I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.

If I had $1 billion plus, that would be a different story, but I am a fairly modest man, not at all rich.

As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.

I owned a piece of land, sold it to someone, contingent that I could live there all my life, and cancel at any time.

They agreed to the terms, I agreed to sell. Fair dinkum, cobber.

Case closed.

Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Um, Medicare /= Medicaid.

famousp:
For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

If my pipes still leaked, that plumber wouldn't be getting paid.
If my transmission still slipped, I'd expect the mechanic to look at it again if he expects his money.
If those doctors expect to be paid, they shouldn't have let the guy die!
This isn't waiting tables- they shouldn't just expect to be paid even when they do a bad job!

/not serious

Anyone who thinks the system you have now for healthcare is better than the way most other socialized countries run theirs are complete fools.

Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

olddinosaur: That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

A revocable living trust doesn't help at all if you or your estate gets sued by creditors, in fact it actually works against your interests; with probate, the creditor has a limited time in which to sue the estate, and since a living trust bypasses probate, it bypasses that as well.

An irrevocable living trust can protect some of your assets, but a) this transfer of assets counts against your eligibility for Medicaid in the first place, and b) you lose all control of the assets except as specified by the terms of the trust; you can't modify the terms of the trust or anything. Creditors can only take those assets that your fund gives you.

Retort: TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

yeah.. that whole communism thing was totally cool

Actually, TFA says that it was a "state-run veterans home". That leads me to believe that it was not a VA facility.

Sum Dum Gai: olddinosaur: That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

A revocable living trust doesn't help at all if you or your estate gets sued by creditors, in fact it actually works against your interests; with probate, the creditor has a limited time in which to sue the estate, and since a living trust bypasses probate, it bypasses that as well.

An irrevocable living trust can protect some of your assets, but a) this transfer of assets counts against your eligibility for Medicaid in the first place, and b) you lose all control of the assets except as specified by the terms of the trust; you can't modify the terms of the trust or anything. Creditors can only take those assets that your fund gives you.

It seems to me that it's just a better idea to gift or sell on the cheap everything to your heirs when you know your time is coming and in return ask for a stipend from their income, banked against the value of your assets when you die. If you trust your kids, do it when you retire.

chu2dogg: Retort: TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

yeah.. that whole communism thing was totally cool

I'm sorry, did the Vietnam war take place in America?

That war was something you should all be horribly ashamed of.

olddinosaur: "apiarist:" I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.

If I had $1 billion plus, that would be a different story, but I am a fairly modest man, not at all rich.

As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.

I owned a piece of land, sold it to someone, contingent that I could live there all my life, and cancel at any time.

They agreed to the terms, I agreed to sell. Fair dinkum, cobber.

Case closed.

Maybe you should check with competent lawyers.

Retort: It seems to me that it's just a better idea to gift or sell on the cheap everything to your heirs when you know your time is coming and in return ask for a stipend from their income, banked against the value of your assets when you die. If you trust your kids, do it when you retire.

Even that counts against your medicaid eligibility for the next five years, so you'd have to do it at least 5 years before you needed medicaid.

apiarist: Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Um, Medicare /= Medicaid.

Huh, so they are. I grew up with my grandparents and they never bothered to tell me anything about them. I figured they were both the same thing, but people just said them differently.

Ahha! I was wondering where all this hope and change was going to start popping up. Found it!

Hardly surprising and probably similar to what is going to happen to most small estates of people who linger on under medical care going forward. Not all of those procedures you get will be covered so if you want to pass something to your heirs you'd better die fast - not after a lingering illness that costs you first your job, then your health insurance, then all your assets.

Personally I plan to just have some of my ashes sent to each of my creditors.

olddinosaur: "apiarist:" I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.

If I had $1 billion plus, that would be a different story, but I am a fairly modest man, not at all rich.

As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.

I owned a piece of land, sold it to someone, contingent that I could live there all my life, and cancel at any time.

They agreed to the terms, I agreed to sell. Fair dinkum, cobber.

Case closed.

You should have saved your money, if you really consulted with "many lawyers". Google the Uniform Fraudulent Transfers Act. Since you didn't really part with control over the assets, the "transfer" didn't take place until your death or insolvency. You're toast. Unless, of course, you don't live in the United States. If you really live in Australia, I doubt that the law is different, but I'm not licensed to practice there.

oh - and then have them sued for 'improper disposal of human remains'

Doppleganger871: Ahha! I was wondering where all this hope and change was going to start popping up. Found it!

Are you mentally retarded?

olddinosaur: I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.

If I had $1 billion plus, that would be a different story, but I am a fairly modest man, not at all rich.

As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.

I owned a piece of land, sold it to someone, contingent that I could live there all my life, and cancel at any time.

They agreed to the terms, I agreed to sell. Fair dinkum, cobber.

Case closed.

Yes, of course it's legal. It just doesn't offer any protection against creditors.

The reason it offers no protection from litigation is the 'cancel at any time' provision. That makes it an asset under your control, as you can claim the asset at any time, and that makes it fair game for any lawsuit against you or your estate.

Only in an irrevocable trust can you protect an asset from a lawsuit -- for example, if you set up a trust that pays you $1500 per month until you die or the trust is out of money. Then a creditor could take the $1500 each month, but they couldn't take the assets in the trust itself. The downside is neither can you -- the assets you put in the trust can never be reclaimed by you, and if you need more than $1500, you're out of luck, there's nothing anyone can do.

dave2198: Doppleganger871: Ahha! I was wondering where all this hope and change was going to start popping up. Found it!

Are you mentally retarded?

Nope, liberalism is the mental disorder.

But, imagine this happening to everyone else who is taken care of under state-run medical coverage. Not too far-fetched.

olddinosaur: "apiarist:" I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.



As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.



So it doesn't sound like what you are doing is legal, but you'll get away with it because you don't make enough money for the creditors to figure it's worth fighting for.

Retort: I'm sorry, did the Vietnam war take place in America?

That war was something you should all be horribly ashamed of.

Why should we be ashamed of a tie?!

This just in: Debts owed will be levied against your estate.

As they should be.

"sum Dum Gai:" You are probably technically correct, but I am practically correct.

If I owe you money and I croak, what I own stands good for what I owe, so I intend to croak owing as little as possible.

If you wish to launch a lawsuit against my estate, trying to recover $1-5K in debt by seizing a piece of land worth $10-15 K, at a cost of $25 K+, be my guest! You may win---but if you do, you will be like the King of Phyrrus, who said after winning a battle at too high a cost: "One more victory like that, and I am ruined!"

The general idea is, hold as little property as you can and sell off everything before you die, so that you die broke, or as near so as possible.

This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

My father passed away recently, and owned a house in Key West worth $960 large, but also owing huge medical bills for many years of long-term care. He retired worth almost a million, but he died broke.

And yes, he put his ass on the line: Navy Commander, 20 years' service, Navy Cross, Purple Heart, Air Medal, WW II Victory Medal, and numerous lesser citations.

DaShredda:


Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Soldiers win wars. I have yet to see a cure for cancer. Soldiers 1, Cancer curers 0.

Yeah, having to actually pay for things sucks doesn't it.

Doppleganger871: But, imagine this happening to everyone else who is taken care of under state-run medical coverage. Not too far-fetched.

Medicaid isn't state-run medical coverage. It's a last-resort loan given by the state when you have no medical coverage left and virtually no assets remaining.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.


It is. And in this case it's completely irrelevant and a poor analogy. The veterans in your story were very much alive and near the beginnings of their adult lives. The veteran in the article is FARKING DEAD. And the state took care of him until he died.

Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

olddinosaur: "sum Dum Gai:" You are probably technically correct, but I am practically correct.

If I owe you money and I croak, what I own stands good for what I owe, so I intend to croak owing as little as possible.

If you wish to launch a lawsuit against my estate, trying to recover $1-5K in debt by seizing a piece of land worth $10-15 K, at a cost of $25 K+, be my guest! You may win---but if you do, you will be like the King of Phyrrus, who said after winning a battle at too high a cost: "One more victory like that, and I am ruined!"

The general idea is, hold as little property as you can and sell off everything before you die, so that you die broke, or as near so as possible.

This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

My father passed away recently, and owned a house in Key West worth $960 large, but also owing huge medical bills for many years of long-term care. He retired worth almost a million, but he died broke.

And yes, he put his ass on the line: Navy Commander, 20 years' service, Navy Cross, Purple Heart, Air Medal, WW II Victory Medal, and numerous lesser citations.

So your father was honest and paid his bills. I honor his character and his service. Whether you had any right to his assets as opposed to the people who cared for him apparently isn't a question that concerns you.

Your plan is to cheat your creditors, and hope that recovery would be impractical. It's not "legal", but it might work. Whether it is moral or ethical I'll leave to you.

Sum Dum Gai: Doppleganger871: But, imagine this happening to everyone else who is taken care of under state-run medical coverage. Not too far-fetched.

Medicaid isn't state-run medical coverage. It's a last-resort loan given by the state when you have no medical coverage left and virtually no assets remaining.


Correct. I believe you have to have less than $2,500 to your name before they'll step in -- at least I think that's the number they gave us when my mom became terminally ill a couple of years ago.

So I'm not sure how a guy with an estate worth $70k got the benefits. (?)

/didn't RTFA

I guess he didn't listen to Obama and get Private Insurance to pay the VA back for his medical bills. So his family is basically SOL.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Veterans groups are angry after President Obama told them Monday that he is still considering a proposal to have treatment for service-connected injuries charged to veterans' private insurance plans.
President Obama, with Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shineski, spoke with leaders of veterans groups Monday.

President Obama, with Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shineski, spoke with leaders of veterans groups Monday.

Leaders of the country's most prominent veterans groups met Monday at the White House with Obama, Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel and Steven Kosiak, the director in charge of defense spending for the Office of Management and Budget.

Some of the veterans groups were caught off guard when the president said the administration is still thinking about the idea as a way of generating $540 million for the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2010. The groups and some members of Congress have been very vocal in opposing the idea.

The message, according to some of the people in the room, was that if the groups do not like this idea, they need to come back with another way of saving or raising revenue for the VA.

"I got the distinct impression that the only hope of this plan not being enacted is for an alternative plan to be developed that would generate the desired $540 million in revenue," Cmdr. David Rehbein of the American Legion said in a written statement.

But the chairman of the Senate Committee on Veterans' Affairs vowed Tuesday that the plan would never gain the panel's approval.

Obama and the VA (new window)

olddinosaur: "sum Dum Gai:" You are probably technically correct, but I am practically correct.

If I owe you money and I croak, what I own stands good for what I owe, so I intend to croak owing as little as possible.

If you wish to launch a lawsuit against my estate, trying to recover $1-5K in debt by seizing a piece of land worth $10-15 K, at a cost of $25 K+, be my guest! You may win---but if you do, you will be like the King of Phyrrus, who said after winning a battle at too high a cost: "One more victory like that, and I am ruined!"

The general idea is, hold as little property as you can and sell off everything before you die, so that you die broke, or as near so as possible.

This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

My father passed away recently, and owned a house in Key West worth $960 large, but also owing huge medical bills for many years of long-term care. He retired worth almost a million, but he died broke.

And yes, he put his ass on the line: Navy Commander, 20 years' service, Navy Cross, Purple Heart, Air Medal, WW II Victory Medal, and numerous lesser citations.

So you're a farking scumsucking douchebag who borrows money without intention of paying it back?

Good to know.

Injuries received while serving are covered by the VA. My dad's hearing loss, and back problems are covered because they are a direct result of his service in Vietnam. Those are the only things he gets treated for at the VA. Anything else that happens to him gets covered by his regular health insurance.

It sucks for this guy and his wife but it seems that either no one explained things to him or he was just confused. Any treatment he recieved for his workplace injury wouldn't be covered by the VA.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Ya know I came in here to rant but... well... you got it man. Can't add anything to that.

Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

olddinosaur: This guy in the article f*cked up, he kept everything in his own name, instead of transferring it quietly to the chick. So he dies owning land worth money, against which he owes a tidy sum; the chick gets nothing, because it does not look like they were married---another mistake!

Well, if he transferred it, he'd potentially need to pay a gift tax, plus any gifted amount (where this = value of the asset - price he sells it for) will count against his medicaid eligibility for five years. So he would have had to divest the assets at least five years in advance. Plus, of course, they'd have no way of knowing five years ahead of time which of the two might need medical care -- had he given all assets to her, and she was the one in a nursing home, they'd lose everything.

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because when I pay my plumber the problem better stay fixed. Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.
Obviously the doctors failed if he died. At the very least he should get a discount.

/when I get old and require medical treatment I will demand a lifetime guarantee

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

Good farking plan.

/Copy and paste.

Mrs_J: Injuries received while serving are covered by the VA. My dad's hearing loss, and back problems are covered because they are a direct result of his service in Vietnam. Those are the only things he gets treated for at the VA. Anything else that happens to him gets covered by his regular health insurance.

Yup. The VA fully pays for indefinite nursing home stays for any veteran disabled in service. Apart from that, though, just like private insurance there are limits to how long (or if) they'll pay for nursing homes. Medicare will cover a nursing home at first, but once that's out, you have to either have private insurance, personal funds, or medicaid.

It sucks for this guy and his wife but it seems that either no one explained things to him or he was just confused. Any treatment he recieved for his workplace injury wouldn't be covered by the VA.

Yeah, that is one major problem with our complicated health care system, especially for seniors. They really need a financial adviser figure to help them navigate what is, even to a younger person, a complicated web of different programs. When you take into account many seniors no longer have the degree of mental alertness that they once had, navigating medicare/private insurance/medicaid/VA benefits/etc. can be a huge task.

If the VA doesn't already offer, they should offer free financial planning to veterans and their families, and they should be actively reminding eligible people every year or two that they should take advantage of these advisers.

budsterr: famousp:

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because when I pay my plumber the problem better stay fixed. Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.
Obviously the doctors failed if he died. At the very least he should get a discount.

/when I get old and require medical treatment I will demand a lifetime guarantee

So under your theory, any MD who treats someone with a terminal condition should get stiffed? Wow! My sister died last month from stage 4 breast cancer and pancreatic cancer. The caregivers who made her last months tolerable deserve to be paid and be able to support their families, regardless of your demented views.

apiarist: Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

eqtworld: Link (new window)

That was on the TV last night.

It sucks for his estate but this is no different than any of us running up $300k in medical bills then kicking the bucket.

Not to be a Troll, but the only person I have heard float the idea of Veterans paying back for injurys that occured durning service is President Obama. Link (new window)

Monty845: apiarist:

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

I was assuming that he paid FMV, and it was not a sham transaction. Sham transactions will get you just as far as the tax protesters who claim that US Dollars are not income as defined by the tax code, and therefore are not taxable.

It's his fault for getting sick and not having a proper professional career to pay his bills.

Monty845: apiarist: Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.

I sent them all a death certificate copy with a letter explaining things and that was the end of that.

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

I paid market value, financed 100%. Didn't do it because she was dying, but to rid her of some debt. Worked out great for both of us. She got to live with me until her death 5 years later. Worked out well for both of us. Since the market crash I owe more than it's worth, but will continue to pay for it as my sig is my bond.

Nice living in a country with public health care.

After my parents pass away, I'm going to quit my job and sell everything I own so I can travel the world. Then, I'm going to run up massive credit card debt so I can travel the world some more. Then, I'm going to blow my head off.

/Suck it

apiarist: Monty845: apiarist:

No problem at all. You did everything according to the book. Now, if she'd "sold" it to you for $10, with the right to take it back at any time (as olddinosaur, advocates, you'd have a problem.

/INAL
Its still a sham transaction if you pay $10 for a $100,000 house. If the death was within the 5 (used to be 3) year clawback, they could probably get the difference between what you paid and what it was worth...
/INAL

I was assuming that he paid FMV, and it was not a sham transaction. Sham transactions will get you just as far as the tax protesters who claim that US Dollars are not income as defined by the tax code, and therefore are not taxable.

It wasn't clear to me from the comment, your assumption is certainly a fair one. Just the other $10 sale comments near it made it sound to me like the commentor was implying they had gotten away with it

SuperDuper28: It sucks for his estate but this is no different than any of us running up $300k in medical bills then kicking the bucket.

When you risk everything for your country's agenda your country should take care of you.

poisonedpawn78
Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

So your argument for state run healthcare is to point out the glaring fault of state run healthcare?

Poppa Boner
When you risk everything for your country's agenda your country should take care of you.

When you're no longer risking everything for your country's agenda, and you get hurt while doing something for your own agenda, the country has no obligation to you. The VA system should be for service related problems and the retirees who put in the 20 years to get the entitlement.

\Vet

Wraithbane: poisonedpawn78
Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

So your argument for state run healthcare is to point out the glaring fault of state run healthcare?

Socialized health care does not require 277,000$ payments when used.

You can overgeneralize all you want to simplify it down for your own brain, in the end you know socialized medicine through taxation is the right and humane way to go. Bankrupting families because corrupt companies want their share is not.

DaShredda: I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Soldiers are heroes because they have the balls to do what cowards like you would wet their panties whilst running away from.
Plus, a pretty large amount of us are black, latino, and asian and have come to find out that the rednecks are absolutely the first guys that we want watching our backs.

olddinosaur: "apiarist:" I have checked it with many lawyers and it is legal.

If I had $1 billion plus, that would be a different story, but I am a fairly modest man, not at all rich.

As such, I can sell my house, my car, and my other property to anyone I wish, and since the value of the prize is not equal to the cost of the suit, the case is void.

I owned a piece of land, sold it to someone, contingent that I could live there all my life, and cancel at any time.

They agreed to the terms, I agreed to sell. Fair dinkum, cobber.

Case closed.

In this case you are correct. As long as the creditors don't hold the title, they can't go after anything you don't own.

The only thing you risk in this case is if you somehow had a falling out with the people that have granted you permission to use the land. If they wanted, they could pursue an eviction. You might even legally be correct, but we both know that in this country your rights only go so far as the cash you are willing to spend in litigation.

Of course, that's why the whole thing is called a trust. And for the smaller sized estates/holdings you won't run into that sort of crazed greed (hopefully, but I've seen families split over as little as $10k)


If you are doing this to avoid some of the shadier aspects of creditors (those that try for more than they really are owed), I don't have an issue.

However, If you are borrowing or running up a debt with a person with the intention of preventing them from collecting upon that debt, then you are being very unethical, and while I have enjoyed your advice in the past, I would look down upon you for that.

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

Congratulations. You've just made all your property available to not only your own creditors, but all the creditors and potential ex-wives of your "friends" who hold bare title to it. Cunning plan, indeed!

This is typical of the tax people in Iowa. They are ruthless. I have had my run-in's with those bastards over the years and have learned that they will try to tax anything they think they can get their hands on. They even show up at flea markets on Sunday's and hand out tax forms expecting people to cough up on the spot.

Best advice...don't live, earn income, or die in Iowa.

Terrydatroll: Before my mother died I purchased her house. She was living off SS and an annuity. My brother was the beneficiary of her life insurance policy. She had 60K in various (mostly) hospital bills. She died with no estate since her annuity stopped when she deceased. No one could touch the insurance because, as the lawyer explained, it was my brothers money, not hers and he was not responsible for her bills.



And that is why we have the high cost of health care. People ripping off the system raises the costs for everyone.

poisonedpawn78: Anyone who thinks the system you have now for healthcare is better than the way most other socialized countries run theirs are complete fools.

Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

Hate to break it to you buddy, but "socialized medicine" isn't some magical box that produces quality medical care at no cost to anyone. There is no such critter.

M. Thatcher : "The problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other's peoples' money to spend."

That said, Medicaid/Medicare does an adequate job for what they are - safety nets.
Which ARE paid for - if not by the person they help then by the rest of us.

My Mom - should she live long enough - will eventually run out of savings to pay for her nursing home care. At that point her pension (Post Office) and her SS will be re-allocated to maintain her where she is - minus an allowance for personal spending like the occasional vending machine treat or small purchase.

Should her putative heirs expect others to pay for her care while leaving her personal wealth (such as it is) sacrosanct?

I would be surprised if the value of the medical care this guy got over the years doesn't amount to a heck of a lot more than his remaining assets. As his (common-law) wife, she MAY have to sell one of the two homes - ONE house, a car, and some savings ($30k?) are exempt from collection in such cases. You don't get to keep a vacation or rental property you don't live in. And if she didn't marry him just to keep both houses while he was alive, she's lucky they didn't at least consider a fraud charge.

eqtworld: Thurg: Soldiers are heroes because they have the balls to do what cowards like you would wet their panties whilst running away from.

Like go half way around the world to fire the first shot against a sovereign nation because maybe they could have vague "WMDs"; then continue to kill people even when you realize you are there for no valid reason?

No, you will never see me trying to justify Iraq. Bush should be in prison, not at the ranch clearing brush.
Nice try though!

came here for all the libtards talking about ways to rip off paying for medical bills.
also came to see them whine about how expensive health care is (and somehow not realizing that when people don't pay their bills it raises the cost for everyone else).

So, wait, if I enlist in the military, get wounded in combat (twice), come home, then have a life-altering "accident" that confines me to a wheelchair for the rest of my life, I can rack up a farkload of bills and not be expected to pay for it? For real?

tag is for whoever thinks a free ride is in order.

I am just so sick of the way the government is NOT explaining things to people. Why not have something that explains how these things work.

I dont think that my mother understands either

FRTFA

One of the homes is valued at $42,920, she said, and the other is worth about $35,000. Both are in Bettendorf.

What kind of home is that cheap unless it is in Detroit?

WHEN YOU'RE >50 YOU NEED TO PLAN FOR THE EVENT OF DEATH.

All I got from this article is there were a couple of really farking ignorant folks living together.

Wraithbane: When you're no longer risking everything for your country's agenda, and you get hurt while doing something for your own agenda, the country has no obligation to you. The VA system should be for service related problems and the retirees who put in the 20 years to get the entitlement.

\Vet

F*ck that. There should be elementary healthcare services until death for anyone who is willing to put themselves in front of a bullet for their country's misguided bullshiat.

Barbecue Bob: olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.


/Copy and paste.

Another unethical person ripping off people, nice.

If you "sell" something at way below market value, it is a taxable event for the recipient and most ethical trustees (and people) would recognize it aa a ripoff and it invalidates the tax/shielding benefits of the transaction.

Animatronik:

I always heard it had something to do with Roman provincial officials offering food to starving Goths in exchange for using their daughters as concubines, and then forgetting to give them the food.

It was probably the same guys doing both.

The Roman Empire fell because Rome kept on taking in barbarians, treating them like inferiors, mistreating them, and using them as disposable troops, creating well trained and equipped enemies who hated the Romans and knew all of their tactics. The Roman Republic fell because a system was set up where the soldiers owed all of their loyalty to their general rather than the state, giving the generals enough power that they started to take on Rome itself.

That's what you get with socialized health care, amiright guys?

horonto: FRTFA

One of the homes is valued at $42,920, she said, and the other is worth about $35,000. Both are in Bettendorf.

What kind of home is that cheap unless it is in Detroit?

Bigger than my present apartment, and I pay about $800 a month.

apiarist: budsterr: famousp:

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because when I pay my plumber the problem better stay fixed. Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.
Obviously the doctors failed if he died. At the very least he should get a discount.

/when I get old and require medical treatment I will demand a lifetime guarantee

So under your theory, any MD who treats someone with a terminal condition should get stiffed? Wow! My sister died last month from stage 4 breast cancer and pancreatic cancer. The caregivers who made her last months tolerable deserve to be paid and be able to support their families, regardless of your demented views.

Failure to understand sarcasm is a sign of a diminished intellect. Good luck with that.

/sorry about your sister douchebag

Can we also recoup all of those welfare payments somehow?
Because as many of you are saying these government expenses are not free and need to be repaid by the estate of the decedent.
Oh, Liberals only want to get back payments from a veterans estate?

I read this an am thankful I'm a Canadian. I'm scared, though, because our right-wing ideologue Prime Minister wants reduce our hard-earned Universality.

You have a Medicaid, that has to be payed back? We have Medicare. It is free for everyone, and never has to be paid back. It's called Traditional Democratic Socialism. Yours is Third-Way social democracy at best.

tenpoundsofcheese: And that is why we have the high cost of health care. People ripping off the system raises the costs for everyone.

People don't typically rip off a system that isn't flawed. The first reason would technically be that you couldn't if it weren't flawed, but beyond that, not many people feel bad ripping off an insurance company that will drop you at the moment you commit the sin of getting sick. Just like not many employees feel bad taking some liberties on an expense report when you're working for a company who will fire you at the drop of a hat because the CEO's stock price hasn't gone up enough lately.

One major problem with the U.S. is that everyone views making money at every single turn as being some kind of virtue. I'm not saying that capitalism is bad. It's not. But runaway greed is. We have a trickle down degeneration of ethical fabric. As a general rule, people treat each other like shiat in this country if money is involved.

torquestripe: Can we also recoup all of those welfare payments somehow?
Because as many of you are saying these government expenses are not free and need to be repaid by the estate of the decedent.
Oh, Liberals only want to get back payments from a veterans estate?

what? did you rtfa?
the treatment was not free and payment was expected.
welfare is free and no repayment is expected

a great example of government run healthcare on a small scale. Can't wait till it goes national,

Medicaid is welfare. It is welfare exactly the same as food stamps or the monthly checks that go to single mothers with 5 kids and no job. If the lady in the story had been married to the deceased, she would have been allowed to stay on the property (in TN, anyway) until she died. No little old wives or husbands are being thrown out on the street. Live-in girlfriends and adult children, however, are not protected. The state could have easily told this man, "You need to sell your house and after you've spent that $70,000 on your care, we'll start paying." Instead, the state did not touch this man's property while he was alive. If he had wanted to die in his home, he could have. Now that he is dead and clearly not in need of it,it's time for the state to try to recoup some of what they spent on this man. I think it's a very humane system that helps chronically ill people and their spouses when they most need it. I am a social worker in a nursing home, and I explain this to people every single day. I'm sure he was told; but maybe the live-in caregiver was not told. She, unfortunately, is screwed. If he'd put the property in her name 5 years ago, though, she'd be free and clear. So if you're living with and caring for someone who says you can have it all when they die, you better get it early, or hope they never go in the nursing home.

/Buy long-term care insurance. I do.

And the new guy in charge, the same one who floated a proposal to have war wounded pay for their medical care through their private insurance policies?

All the leftist blogs' favorite general, Eric Shinseki.

The way certain individuals carry on about "personal responsibility" and how veterans of our wars don't deserve any breaks or special favors makes me seriously question why anyone would put their life on the line for this farked-up piece of shiat country full of selfish assholes. I sure wouldn't.

KiwDaWabbit: tenpoundsofcheese: And that is why we have the high cost of health care. People ripping off the system raises the costs for everyone.

People don't typically rip off a system that isn't flawed. The first reason would technically be that you couldn't if it weren't flawed, but beyond that, not many people feel bad ripping off an insurance company that will drop you at the moment you commit the sin of getting sick. Just like not many employees feel bad taking some liberties on an expense report when you're working for a company who will fire you at the drop of a hat because the CEO's stock price hasn't gone up enough lately.

One major problem with the U.S. is that everyone views making money at every single turn as being some kind of virtue. I'm not saying that capitalism is bad. It's not. But runaway greed is. We have a trickle down degeneration of ethical fabric. As a general rule, people treat each other like shiat in this country if money is involved.

What a joke. Do you think there is any system that isn't flawed in some way?!
Nice hyperbole about insurance companies dropping people when they get sick. Does it happen? Sure? Is it a pandemic? No. I know plenty of people who got far more health benefits than they paid in and are still covered.

Typical libtard hyperbole. The "problem" you are referring to is that people believed that just because they work at a company for 10 years they are entitled to work their for 11 years.

People get fired when when they aren't worth the money.
People quit when they think they can make better money or have better opportunities elsewhere.

But it is clear you don't know what you are talking about and just repeating libtard talking points. Example. the CEO doesn't have a stock price.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Interesting story. I don't see the analogy in this case though. He wasn't paying back the VA, he was paying back the state's medicaid, which was covering an accident he sustained as a civilian. This is in fact, a state issue.

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

um k. good luck with that buddy.

svenbertil: Nice living in a country with public health care.

Not sure what point you're trying to make, but his accident happened in 1990.

CruJones: This just in: Debts owed will be levied against your estate.

As they should be.

Or, in other words, patriotism is for suckers, uh?

tenpoundsofcheese:
What a joke. Do you think there is any system that isn't flawed in some way?!

Nice hyperbole about insurance companies dropping people when they get sick. Does it happen? Sure? Is it a pandemic? No. I know plenty of people who got far more health benefits than they paid in and are still covered.

Typical libtard hyperbole. The "problem" you are referring to is that people believed that just because they work at a company for 10 years they are entitled to work their for 11 years.

People get fired when when they aren't worth the money.
People quit when they think they can make better money or have better opportunities elsewhere.

But it is clear you don't know what you are talking about and just repeating libtard talking points. Example. the CEO doesn't have a stock price.

CEO's don't typically own stock in the companies they run? Okay.

It's also funny how you accuse me of having "libtard" talking points when I haven't heard any "libtards" using these talking points. It sounds like a case of protesting too much, as if maybe you were using the talking point that pervasive fraud is making everyone's insurance rates skyrocket. Yeah, that's it. It's not greed, it's everyone conspiring to gang up on the poor insurance companies. Let me get out my violin.

poisonedpawn78: Anyone who thinks the system you have now for healthcare is better than the way most other socialized countries run theirs are complete fools.

Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

Actually moron, you proved the exact opposite of the point you were trying to make. This is what happens when government gets involved. If you think that this will not happen to compulsory government health care where the government robs estates of everyone, rich or poor, to pay obscene inflated medical bills the government says they are owed, you are a fool. I am sure you also think that some bureaucrat in washington will not look at your race and age and dictate if your surgery and life is more valuable than the guy next to you... If you are lucky and don't die when that happens and get approved, after a year waiting for that decision you can get on the 1 year waiting list! Hope you don't die in that process.... SIGN ME UP FOR THAT!!!! RAWRGGGRBLE HMO PPO's SUCK!

What happened here is a microcosm of what is wrong with socialized medicine... Because, you know, VA care/medicaid/medicare is socialzed medicine, and look how craptastic that is.

I swear people in this country are farking retards.

KiwDaWabbit: tenpoundsofcheese:
What a joke. Do you think there is any system that isn't flawed in some way?!

Nice hyperbole about insurance companies dropping people when they get sick. Does it happen? Sure? Is it a pandemic? No. I know plenty of people who got far more health benefits than they paid in and are still covered.

Typical libtard hyperbole. The "problem" you are referring to is that people believed that just because they work at a company for 10 years they are entitled to work their for 11 years.

People get fired when when they aren't worth the money.
People quit when they think they can make better money or have better opportunities elsewhere.

But it is clear you don't know what you are talking about and just repeating libtard talking points. Example. the CEO doesn't have a stock price.

CEO's don't typically own stock in the companies they run? Okay.


you wrote: "because the CEO's stock price hasn't gone up enough lately"
the CEO doesn't have a stock price. The STOCK has a stock price. See, that's why the call it a "stock price".

NExD:

If done correctly, it would be better for most people. The problem is that people tend to misunderstand what "most people" actually means. It would immediately improve the situations of the 47 million (or whatever it is now) without health insurance. It might make my personal wealth situation worse, for example.

Cataholic: olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

Congratulations. You've just made all your property available to not only your own creditors, but all the creditors and potential ex-wives of your "friends" who hold bare title to it. Cunning plan, indeed!

this.

It's already been noted by apiarist and a few others, but, for the record, anyone following Olddinosaur's advice on estate planning will be in for an unpleasant surprise; the government (medicaid, state and federal tax collectors) can assuredly reach assets in revocable trusts, and in many states so can your creditors. It's not a question of "it's not worth it for them to sue." The government simply disregards revocable trusts and treats those assets as though you owned them when you died, because for all real purposes you did. There are ways to move assets around to avoid probate and your creditors, but that plan certainly wouldn't have helped the soldier from the article: medicaid would have ignored the goofy trust and just grabbed it anyway.

budsterr: Other then being a teacher, doctors are the only profession where you can utterly fail and expect and get full compensation.

Nice.

/asshole

tenpoundsofcheese: you wrote: "because the CEO's stock price hasn't gone up enough lately"
the CEO doesn't have a stock price. The STOCK has a stock price. See, that's why the call it a "stock price".

Is that all you have? Really? You're using the fact that you misinterpreted something twice your dual-purpose deflection and trump card?

KiwDaWabbit: NExD:

If done correctly, it would be better for most people. The problem is that people tend to misunderstand what "most people" actually means. It would immediately improve the situations of the 47 million (or whatever it is now) without health insurance. It might make my personal wealth situation worse, for example.

yes. and bankrupt our country and our citizens who actually pay for things and make this country run, thereby ruining what makes this country great.... for everyone. Sign me up to pay for that!

My favorite part:

""None of those expenses, including the taxes, are necessary expenses, according to the state. The only so-called legitimate expense was the funeral. They want half the value of the houses. It doesn't matter how much I saved the state for the 13 years I took care of him.""

So, taxes and building codes are elective? I like that idea.

Poppa Boner: Wraithbane: When you're no longer risking everything for your country's agenda, and you get hurt while doing something for your own agenda, the country has no obligation to you. The VA system should be for service related problems and the retirees who put in the 20 years to get the entitlement.

\Vet

F*ck that. There should be elementary healthcare services until death for anyone who is willing to put themselves in front of a bullet for their country's misguided bullshiat.

It'd help first-term enlistments, but it'd definitely screw your retention rate. You'd get a bunch of douchnozzle's pulling one enlistment only to get out at their first opportunity because now they have healthcare for life. Not in my military, thank you very much. At least people joining for supplemented education will at least, y'know, use that benefit to benefit the country once they're out.

/not saying there aren't douchnozzle's already in the military

In 100-200 years stories like this will be told in history class to point out how horrible and oppressive living in this era is, where anyone can come take your assets if you get sick.

Please sir can I have some medical care?

And this is where somewhere posts the Strong Bad video on misused apostrophes.

/dammit

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Too bad Rome got canceled after not quite 2 seasons. I wonder how it would have turned out?



//hot

KiwDaWabbit: tenpoundsofcheese: you wrote: "because the CEO's stock price hasn't gone up enough lately"
the CEO doesn't have a stock price. The STOCK has a stock price. See, that's why the call it a "stock price".

Is that all you have? Really? You're using the fact that you misinterpreted something twice your dual-purpose deflection and trump card?

I got more, but that is all I need.

KiwDaWabbit: NExD:

If done correctly, it would be better for most people. The problem is that people tend to misunderstand what "most people" actually means. It would immediately improve the situations of the 47 million (or whatever it is now) without health insurance. It might make my personal wealth situation worse, for example.

Yeah, but 20% of those without insurance are illegal immigrants, and I don't know how much people are willing to pay for that coverage too.

beer4breakfast: famousp: Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Getting your car or your plumbing fixed doesn't cost more then your entire assets accumulated over a lifetime.

Kind of depends on how much you have in assets and how much you need in repairs to car or body.

TANSTAAFL

greentea1985: Animatronik:

I always heard it had something to do with Roman provincial officials offering food to starving Goths in exchange for using their daughters as concubines, and then forgetting to give them the food.

It was probably the same guys doing both.

The Roman Empire fell because Rome kept on taking in barbarians, treating them like inferiors, mistreating them, and using them as disposable troops, creating well trained and equipped enemies who hated the Romans and knew all of their tactics. The Roman Republic fell because a system was set up where the soldiers owed all of their loyalty to their general rather than the state, giving the generals enough power that they started to take on Rome itself.

Sorry i missed that you were talking about the republic not the empire. I think the last thing you said is closer to the cause than any abuse of veterans though. The Marian reforms created what amounts to paid standing armies that would go on extending campaigns, completely different from early armies that were raised for short campaigns and defensive wars. These armies tended to develop strong loyalties their generals, who couldn't resist using them for political purposes.

Summoner101: Poppa Boner: Wraithbane: When you're no longer risking everything for your country's agenda, and you get hurt while doing something for your own agenda, the country has no obligation to you. The VA system should be for service related problems and the retirees who put in the 20 years to get the entitlement.

\Vet


F*ck that. There should be elementary healthcare services until death for anyone who is willing to put themselves in front of a bullet for their country's misguided bullshiat.

It'd help first-term enlistments, but it'd definitely screw your retention rate. You'd get a bunch of douchnozzle's pulling one enlistment only to get out at their first opportunity because now they have healthcare for life. Not in my military, thank you very much. At least people joining for supplemented education will at least, y'know, use that benefit to benefit the country once they're out.

/not saying there aren't douchnozzle's already in the military


Right on

chu2dogg: Retort: TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

yeah.. that whole communism thing was totally cool

Well the fact that we pulled out and they still went red and nothing much changed here kind of demonstrates how that was was farking pointless.

Not a slam on this guy, he did his job there and it wasn't his fault that the general public bought the whole commie menace line of bullshiat, but it was still bullshiat.

Plus, as a kind of aside: It was a popular revolution. We may not agree with the ethos that they were playing in to, but as people who pride ourselves on our revolutionary heritage, where the fark do we get off on trying to quash other people's right to rebel against their own governments? You think it would have been cool if some superpower had stepped in and prevented us from revolting because they didn't like our own ideas?

The guy owned houses "plural" but he was using medicaid/medicare???
Sweet setup there. Should I be angry about this?

poisonedpawn78: Anyone who thinks the system you have now for healthcare is better than the way most other socialized countries run theirs are complete fools.

Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

THIS a million times over

Retort: chu2dogg: Retort: TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

yeah.. that whole communism thing was totally cool

I'm sorry, did the Vietnam war take place in America?

That war was something you should all be horribly ashamed of.

Read my above comments on my thoughts on that stupid and pointless war.

Then go eat a mile of dicks for preaching to us about our own history. Like your ancestral and national record is pure as the driven snow.

Doppleganger871: Ahha! I was wondering where all this hope and change was going to start popping up. Found it!

Came here for some stupid coont to blame Obama.

/Sadly unsurprised.

Soldiers are treated as good as possible in a logical society because nothing can fark up your life plan like losing a war. And by war, I mean real war, the kind where if you lose, a fuzzy little foreigner is going to rampage through all your shiat and rape your womenfolk. This is admittedly something we don't have to worry about at this time, but you never know. The world has changed allot in the last 50 years, what will it look like 50 years from now?

What was the original point of this whole deal? Oh yeah. The guy owed a debt. His dead ass has to pay it. End of story. The veteran angle has nothing to do with it other than as a pity plea by the aggrieved "widow". My grandmother had very little when she went into a nursing home. She basically sold it all to pay for the first few months (maybe 10-15 grand). Then she went on Medicaid/Medicare and lived there for 8 years. In my book, she made out pretty good for dying with nothing. So did this guy.

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Last time I checked, my plumber didn't charge me $700 for a $3 pipe fitting and then another $5000 to fix it. Also, when he said he'd be here at 3, and was going to be a little late, he called he to tell me. I didn't have to sit in a room for 3 hours after my appointment just to get stuck in a little room with my ass hanging out for another hour.

Oh, and the guy that works on my cars only charges me his cost for the parts? How do I know? I usually sign for them while he's working on my car.

I tip the plumber, and the mechanic, and a good waitress. I flip the Dr bird.

You aren't entitled to anyone else's money when your car breaks.
You aren't entitled to anyone else's money when your house falls apart.
You aren't entitled to anyone else's money when a tree falls on your $3000 grill.
You aren't entitled to anyone else's money when you drop your iphone in the pool.

Why are you entitled to somebody else's money when you hit your hand with a hammer?

I understand some of these events may be covered by forms of insurance. Insurance is a voluntary service that people can choose to enter or leave for another service, the antithesis of coercion through taxation.

Thurg: DaShredda: I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Soldiers are heroes because they have the balls to do what cowards like you would wet their panties whilst running away from.
Plus, a pretty large amount of us are black, latino, and asian and have come to find out that the rednecks are absolutely the first guys that we want watching our backs.

Dude I'm a vet, combat vet even. Not all soldiers are "heroes". Sure a soldier in wartime has more opportunities to prove bravery and to help others, they also have more opportunities to be horrible farks to strangers.

Wearing a uniform does not make anyone an automatic "hero". It usually just means they didn't have a good enough SAT or enough family money to go to college right away, and playing with guns and blowing shiat up looks like more fun that working at Pizza Hut.

And before you give me any shiat, remember I'm a farking "hero" so watch your mouth.

A "state-run veterans home?" Run by the Iowa Department of Human Services?

Sorry, subby, but that's NOT the VA.

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

But why not go the whole way and privatise the military - after all - why stiff your soldier for keeping you safe?

If socialised healthcare is such a failure maybe socialised armies should be on the way out too. Then you'd get the best people who actually want to be defending you - not some poor hick from a trailer park who joined up to get a cheap education.

Wow you are all farking retarded. It has been a while since I've had to use this. Ages, even..

Link (pops)

You'd think you'd know better but no. You don't. Gliberals and republican'ts doing the same thing everyone else does. You know what? We *all* use toilet paper after we shiat, for the most part, so you might as well get used to it.

nealpolitan: Soldiers are treated as good as possible in a logical society because nothing can fark up your life plan like losing a war. And by war, I mean real war, the kind where if you lose, a fuzzy little foreigner is going to rampage through all your shiat and rape your womenfolk.

Nobody is threatening us with invasion, nor has anybody ever in our entire history as a nation, with the possible exception of the War of 1812.

This is admittedly something we don't have to worry about at this time, but you never know.

Yes I do. It's called nuclear deterrence.

The world has changed allot in the last 50 years, what will it look like 50 years from now?

It really hasn't changed THAT much since 1959. They had planes, cars, televisions, radios, tanks, atomic bombs, rockets, and even computers. We don't need a large standing force just waiting indefinitely and wasting obscene amounts of resources, not to mention destroying the environment in the process. If a real threat to our nation looms 50 or 100 years from now, we can rise to meet it then. That would be the rational thing to do.

I thought animal doctors made lots of money...

apiarist: Laughable that anyone thinks that would be successful.

This. I'm hoping it was an exceptionally geeky troll.

logruszed: Thurg: DaShredda: I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Soldiers are heroes because they have the balls to do what cowards like you would wet their panties whilst running away from.
Plus, a pretty large amount of us are black, latino, and asian and have come to find out that the rednecks are absolutely the first guys that we want watching our backs.

Dude I'm a vet, combat vet even. Not all soldiers are "heroes". Sure a soldier in wartime has more opportunities to prove bravery and to help others, they also have more opportunities to be horrible farks to strangers.

Wearing a uniform does not make anyone an automatic "hero". It usually just means they didn't have a good enough SAT or enough family money to go to college right away, and playing with guns and blowing shiat up looks like more fun that working at Pizza Hut.

And before you give me any shiat, remember I'm a farking "hero" so watch your mouth.

After my VERY un-serious last post I read your post. 4 years and, even in the Corps, I want to thank you for reminding them that everyone is not a hero by default. Do they need payment for their services? Yes. Are they special? No. The person next to me took the round, not I. Had I been in his position I would have. It wasn't heroism unless biting your bottom lip and sticking your head under your rifle to peek around a corner is heroism. Hell, you want a hero? Look to the corpsman, he spent about an hour on that kid.

Hmm... As an aside? I wonder how many will fess up to my latest chicanery. And some random text here so that it isn't actually read by people. How about I try to think of something witty? No? Okay. It took a while but I suspect that someone (or many) will have just wandered off blindly across the internet. They don't know how dangerous it is.

Did I mention I'm right completely hammered? Avoid the V.A. at all cost. Every time I've gone there for my knee or shoulder they've pretty much wanted to use it as an excuse to chop me open and poke at random bits as if I'm some sort of still-alive-cadaver. If you can pay your medical then do so, that's about all I can add though I suspect you might already know it.

olddinosaur: That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

That's interesting, but everything I own actually IS worth about $10, so probably not worth the effort.

????

My grandfather had emphysema and was on on a raft of medications (and permanently attached to an oxygen tank) for about 10 years. He eventually died from heart failure, almost right after they found was was suspected to be lung cancer. My point was, he was a sick, sick man. When he died, after several years of treatment in both the VA hospital system and at home under Medicaid & Medicare, my grandmother never saw a bill for anything.

"people should be outraged"

seriously?

what outrages me about this is that this woman thinks that a few years of service entitles her man to complete insurance coverage decades after the fact on injuries that had nothing to do with service. that outrages me.

if that was the kind of thing we deserve and could expect, i'd have signed up right out of high school 15 years back and done my 4 years to get my lifetime insurance. you'd have to be stupid not to.

cmon lady, get your head out of your ass.

He received health services in a country without a real system of socialized healthcare. Of course the provider is going to seek payment.

If you think this is an injustice, then socialized healthcare is what you want.

It's worth noting that his injuries were not from wartime service.

It's also worth noting that they're seeking half the couple's shared assets, not all of them. So if their combined assets are $70K, $35K is his half and is payable against his debts. The other $35K worth is hers to keep.

I don't see the problem here, except that you in the USA don't have a public healthcare system. If you don't like that, support socialized healthcare.

Summoner101: It'd help first-term enlistments, but it'd definitely screw your retention rate. You'd get a bunch of douchnozzle's pulling one enlistment only to get out at their first opportunity because now they have healthcare for life. Not in my military, thank you very much. At least people joining for supplemented education will at least, y'know, use that benefit to benefit the country once they're out.

/not saying there aren't douchnozzle's already in the military

I agree completely that people will take advantage of the system but wasn't that the point of a free education too? Educating and healing people are good things for society. Especially when those are the people holding the guns for your liberties. I want soldiers to believe in something and fight for good. Not a bunch of cynical automatons.

/canuck
//post don't count

If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.

DaShredda: I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Typical post n' run troll. You got a few nibbles, but nothing substantial. And another thing, I hope you didn't study hard in web design or art. Man, your site is terrible. Is that seriously the link you give to potential clients? Yikes!

SnakeLee: Weaver95: basemetal: Ennuipoet: I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

yep

I hope you are both wrong.

You hope history is boring?

Good thing our President doesn't have disdain for those in the military.

LOL people talk about the US health care system as if it were the model of efficiency. LOL! ROFL! LMAO!!!!

TRUTH is that it is the only one of it's kind in the world and the worst in terms of cost per quality, quantity, and comprehension of treatment in the world. Yes, USA #1! In what? I haven't the foggiest, the more I read about other developed nations the more this one seems like a huge joke.

King Merkin: If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.

What? Why? How about fighting fires? Being a cop? Chances are a cop or a fire fighter is going to have had a much more tangible impact on you or your community in your lifetime.

Nemo's Brother: SnakeLee: Weaver95: basemetal: Ennuipoet: I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

yep

I hope you are both wrong.

You hope history is boring?

Good thing our President doesn't have disdain for those in the military.

This comment, if sarcastic, is about 8 years late.

BO didn't send people to fight a bullshiat war without proper armor.

Ringtailed79: WHEN YOU'RE >5018 YOU NEED TO PLAN FOR THE EVENT OF DEATH.

All I got from this article is there were a couple of really farking ignorant folks living together.

FTFY

In case someone hasn't pointed this out already, that's exactly the position all gay couples are in when a partner dies. It doesn't matter how long they have been together or what they have been through. If a partner dies with his or her name on any assets those assets can be seized and sold if the remaining names can't pony up half the cash.

The lady in the article is lucky she gets to be called the common law wife. Plenty of gay people have been screwed out of property they co own with their partners.

logruszed:
This comment, if sarcastic, is about 8 years late.

BO didn't send people to fight a bullshiat war without proper armor.

You go to the hospital with the insurance you have, not the insurance you want.

These people are responsible for understanding the law and making provisions for it all. If she has to pay half of what the properties are worth, she can just sell one and pay them with that. She will still have one left. We definitely need to provide better for our veterans, especially ones that were wounded, but that isn't what this story is really about, is it? It's more along the lines of, "Waaah we didn't understand the law."

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

Money is an illusion, which means that how much things cost change with the way the sun looks today.

TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.


FTFA:
In 1990, he was badly injured in a welding explosion in Bettendorf.

Apparently he was still attached to the 101st airborn arc welding brigade when he was injured?

"Everybody who gets Medicaid is told this is a government program for which we will be expecting repayment,"

Then it's NOT A FUC*ING GOVERNMENT PROGRAM, IS IT, POOKIE?

Where do you suppose they spend all that money that they get from ripping people off for sh*t that taxes are supposed to fund?

bunner: "Everybody who gets Medicaid is told this is a government program for which we will be expecting repayment,"

Then it's NOT A FUC*ING GOVERNMENT PROGRAM, IS IT, POOKIE?

How is it not? Sounds a lot like my student loans.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

They gave them curry??? Crikey.

Hey, have you got this bass ackwards?

If the Emperors "provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support" then why did the republic fall?

And at the top of your paragraph you say NO support was given. Quite the opposite, in fact.

/coming in 170 comments late, apologies if I've missed anything regarding this

Hey subby - a "state-run veterans home" is not run by VA, but rather by the state.

Helps if you read/verify your tag against the article.

eggrolls: ????

My grandfather had emphysema and was on on a raft of medications (and permanently attached to an oxygen tank) for about 10 years. He eventually died from heart failure, almost right after they found was was suspected to be lung cancer. My point was, he was a sick, sick man. When he died, after several years of treatment in both the VA hospital system and at home under Medicaid & Medicare, my grandmother never saw a bill for anything.

So you are saying socialism works?

Leskay: If the Emperors "provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support" then why did the republic fall?

Well... the Republic became an Empire in part because the emperors bribed the soldiers to assist them in taking over the biatch.

Animatronik: Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

I always heard it had something to do with Roman provincial officials offering food to starving Goths in exchange for using their daughters as concubines, and then forgetting to give them the food.

It was probably the same guys doing both.



Those poor starving Goths.

Medicaid is the nation's major public health insurance program for low-income Americans, financing health and long-term care services for over 52 million people, including children and many of the sickest and poorest in our nation. Since its enactment in 1965, Medicaid has improved access to health care for low-income individuals, financed innovations in health care delivery, and functioned as the nation's primary source of long-term care financing. The State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) was enacted in 1997 to provide coverage to uninsured low-income children who did not qualify for Medicaid. Today, the SCHIP program assists roughly 5 million low-income children.

Recent rapid growth in Medicaid spending at a time of great fiscal crisis at both state and federal levels has placed Medicaid squarely at the center of the current national health policy debate. Recent state-level efforts to constrain Medicaid spending have restricted provider payments, eligibility, and benefits, leading some to worry about comprising access to care. On the federal level, policymakers are now considering proposals to restructure Medicaid and dramatically cut spending.

Boy howdy.

Poppa Boner: Summoner101: It'd help first-term enlistments, but it'd definitely screw your retention rate. You'd get a bunch of douchnozzle's pulling one enlistment only to get out at their first opportunity because now they have healthcare for life. Not in my military, thank you very much. At least people joining for supplemented education will at least, y'know, use that benefit to benefit the country once they're out.

/not saying there aren't douchnozzle's already in the military

I agree completely that people will take advantage of the system but wasn't that the point of a free education too? Educating and healing people are good things for society. Especially when those are the people holding the guns for your liberties. I want soldiers to believe in something and fight for good. Not a bunch of cynical automatons.

/canuck
//post don't count

Which is precisely why when you are in the military, the majority of your healthcare, and the healthcare for your family, is mostly paid for. But there's a reason lifetime healthcare is reserved for retirees and wounded: they earned it in time or blood. Everyone else? They still have their years or body parts to go and do something else to earn their ride on the gravy train.

Besides, there are enough people in the military that are in for all the wrong reasons and literally don't five a shiat. There doesn't need to be more.

Anyway, lack of healthcare for life isn't what I generally see making soldiers "cynical automatons." I'd explain, but my choice of words would be anything but tactful.

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Running water is a luxury; a car is a luxury; health is not a luxury.
Your analogy fails.

Terrydatroll: DaShredda:


Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

Soldiers win wars. I have yet to see a cure for cancer. Soldiers 1, Cancer curers 0.

Wars are never won, they just end.

If we don't give up this primitive concept of worshiping the monkey holding the biggest rock we're doomed.

olddinosaur: If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

That's america for ya.... make everything a complicated process to keep your stuff away from a group of thieves with a monopoly on the legal use of violence.

How about people just make their own deals with health care providers instead?

King Merkin: If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.

Why?

That just creates a war machine where it is more profitable to kill than to do something useful.

I'm surprised the neocons are still to this day against the idea of universal coverage. Pulling out the "wait til the government manages it if you don't like it now" angle rings hollow to the guy who has no coverage whatsoever (and there are, what, like 40+ million of us in this boat?). Yeah, thanks for your concern bub, I'll take my chances okay?

My constitution tells me I am endowed by certain INALIENABLE rights, the first of which it mentions is LIFE. I want my taxes to pay for its upkeep before allocating funds to unnecessary wars and programs that don't benefit me directly. A health care system that pays cradle to grave is a benefit I now regard as an entitlement paid for out of every dime I pay in taxes.

Canadians and EU citizens laugh at our archaic system. Hopefully we'll get to that stage before too long.

jst3p: eggrolls: ????

My grandfather had emphysema and was on on a raft of medications (and permanently attached to an oxygen tank) for about 10 years. He eventually died from heart failure, almost right after they found was was suspected to be lung cancer. My point was, he was a sick, sick man. When he died, after several years of treatment in both the VA hospital system and at home under Medicaid & Medicare, my grandmother never saw a bill for anything.

So you are saying socialism works?

Not with the prior statement, but based on an experience in an emergency room in Crawley, West Sussex England many years ago, I would.

King Merkin: If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.

I'm not disagreeing, but that would go a long way to (further) bankrupting this country. Can you imagine the added costs? Literally hundreds of thousands of young men and women are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. Paying for all of their health care for the next 50 years of their lives would cost untold hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars. Factor in the First Gulf Conflict, Panama, Grenada, Vietnam and Korea (not to mention other smaller incidents) and we are talking tens of millions of people. It would be unsustainable.

Can'tLetYouDoThatStarFox: nealpolitan: Soldiers are treated as good as possible in a logical society because nothing can fark up your life plan like losing a war. And by war, I mean real war, the kind where if you lose, a fuzzy little foreigner is going to rampage through all your shiat and rape your womenfolk.

Nobody is threatening us with invasion, nor has anybody ever in our entire history as a nation, with the possible exception of the War of 1812.

This is admittedly something we don't have to worry about at this time, but you never know.

Yes I do. It's called nuclear deterrence.

The world has changed allot in the last 50 years, what will it look like 50 years from now?

It really hasn't changed THAT much since 1959. They had planes, cars, televisions, radios, tanks, atomic bombs, rockets, and even computers. We don't need a large standing force just waiting indefinitely and wasting obscene amounts of resources, not to mention destroying the environment in the process. If a real threat to our nation looms 50 or 100 years from now, we can rise to meet it then. That would be the rational thing to do.

Listen brainiac, I wasn't looking to argue whether we need the military we have now or not. I was just saying that it's not a good idea to shiat on your soldiers and/or veterans.

In the 6 or 7 thousand years or so of recorded human history, mistreating or neglecting your armed forces has never gone over very well.

Retort: chu2dogg: Retort: TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

yeah.. that whole communism thing was totally cool

I'm sorry, did the Vietnam war take place in America?

That war was something you should all be horribly ashamed of.

I am horribly ashamed of my balls.

Dude's major expenses came from an accident not on Uncle Sam's time. Dude didn't have insurance to cover that, and used (abused!) medicaid to finance that stuff. And on top of that, dude didn't have his papers in order for when he died.

Why are people outraged at this? His combat-related expenses WERE paid for by the VA. This $277k was for his brain surgery and resulting care from his welding accident.

Sure, it sucks that a combat veteran died in a bitter fashion, but it was his own fault. And he dragged his live-in-woman into the whole thing too.

Animatronik: Sum Dum Gai: That's what happens when you use Medicaid. The state that pays out Medicaid payments gets to bill your estate when you die. Actually, it's more than "gets to", the state is required by federal law to sue the estate to recover certain costs, including all nursing home care.

Yes, when you go into a nursing home whatever you have in the way of social security, etc. gets signed over to them.

This guy no doubt received way more in benefits than his money will ever cover, sounds like a pretty good deal to me. I'd sign up for it.

/The problem with America is we don't seem to understand what an entitlement is and what things really cost. taking too much fro granted...

Again, its the liters bringing common sense, that should be obvious since nobody pays for message board access anymore.

DerDuschbagen: My constitution tells me I am endowed by certain INALIENABLE rights, the first of which it mentions is LIFE.

I like your constitution. Perhaps you should suggest the government amend their constitution so it better conforms to yours.

King Merkin: If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.

Like the empire cares about people. Use them up, throw them away. Stealing people's money (or printing it) to provide vets with health care is less money available for them to steal or wage more wars with.

SecretAgentWoman: He should have taken the time to ensure his girlfriend would be in the clear once he died. Sounds like they assumed since she was part owner his half would automatically go to her, unfortunately, that isn't true.

I do love how they made her his "common law wife" so they could go after her specifically.

I don't think that's a matter of going after her, but of protecting her.

Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Medicare Medicaid

King Merkin: If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.


I believe you get free medical care for life if you serve 20 years and retire in the military (don't quote me on it, but friends have mentioned it). If you serve one year and leave, you should not be entitled to free medical care for life. Every person in the country would sign up and drop at the first opportunity if that were the case, and then we'd have truly socialized medical care.

/ohwait

He was shot in Vietnam, but his debilitating accident was decades later.

poisonedpawn78: Anyone who thinks the system you have now for healthcare is better than the way most other socialized countries run theirs are complete fools.

Every story like this should reinforce why the system needs to change, but then again, nobody cares until it happens to them. So aslong as its not happening to you, good old capitalism belongs in healthcare right?

Here's the thing; I don't live in those other countries, I live in America. I know what a mess the U.S. government makes of health care for soldiers-see Walter Reed. I know what a mess the U.S. government makes of health care for veterans-see the VA. I know what a mess the U.S. government makes of health care for American Indians-see the Indian Health Service. I know how budget-busting the U.S. government's effort to care for the elderly is-see Medicare.

If you have some method by which we can put the Canadian or German or Japanese government in charge of an American national health care system, hey, I might care about how well it works in those countries. As it is, every single bit of the health care system the U.S. government touches is shiat, overpriced, or both. So why the hell would I trust the U.S. government to run the whole system?

"Japanese and European companies make good small cars" is not an argument for buying small cars from GM. And "Japanese and European governments run good national health systems" is not an argument for a health system run by the U.S. government.

Point 1: This is NOT the VA
Point 2: He was injured as a CIVILIAN
Point 3: He was awarded a settlement for that injury
Point 4: He was well aware of the need for repayment
Point 5: The state is NOT going after the full amount, just what is left in his estate
Point 6: The woman in this article isn't even his wife and, in no way, can be held liable for his expenses

Point 7: 90% of Farkers are either naive, can't read or can't comprehend simple English

Summoner101: I'd explain, but my choice of words would be anything but tactful.

I'd listen. eip

I'm a vet and I'm fighting the VA for my benefits. How do you suppose I pay for health care for my non-service connected injuries. I don't have money or a job. If someone could explain this to me, that would be super.

Moopy Mac: King Merkin: If you fight in combat for the US military, you should - at the least - receive free health care for the rest of your life.

I'm not disagreeing, but that would go a long way to (further) bankrupting this country. Can you imagine the added costs? Literally hundreds of thousands of young men and women are coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. Paying for all of their health care for the next 50 years of their lives would cost untold hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars. Factor in the First Gulf Conflict, Panama, Grenada, Vietnam and Korea (not to mention other smaller incidents) and we are talking tens of millions of people. It would be unsustainable.

Yeah except a majority of people in this country think that not only can we (that's we as in the politicians, the taxpayers, the R's the D's - hell whatever grouping you want to use) anyway, not only can we do it for those hundreds of thousands but all 300+ million of us - everyone, you know, universal health coverage.

If a few hundred thousand, relatively healthy people, covered for the rest of their lives would be a nearly unbearable burden, someone please tell me how the fark would pay for health care for EVERYONE short of:

A) Spending every single dime of tax money, and every penny that can be begged, borrowed or stolen from some other country...

or

B) Completely nationalizing ALL health care facilities, workers and technologies and requiring a certain percentage of individuals to work within that sector.

I mean if we spent all of $3000 per person per year on medical care (yeah right) we'd still spend a trillion bucks a year.

citizen905: Mewling liberals, they think someone else should have to pay for their medical care. A veteran is man enough to die for his country when he is young, so he should be willing when he is old and destitute. It's disgraceful that so many of them turn into socialists when they get old.

I can guess you never served a day in your life. Republicans, eager to crowd around a fight screaming for blood and violence, but when the bullets go flying, you turn yellow and run for the hills.

foo monkey: He was shot in Vietnam, but his debilitating accident was decades later.

So what? Governments shouldn't be turning their backs on the health of their own people let alone the ones who have fought for them. At least soldiers joining now may have an idea of what they're getting into. Veterans of past wars were forced into it or told they were unpatriotic cowards if they didn't volunteer. They at least deserve to be given healthcare.

punchaprep: I'm a vet and I'm fighting the VA for my benefits. How do you suppose I pay for health care for my non-service connected injuries. I don't have money or a job. If someone could explain this to me, that would be super.

Suck it up, Nancy. What - do you expect the citizens of the country you fought for, could have died for, and lost friends defending owes you more than a "Thanks, Buddy", a pat on the back and a coupon for coffee at Denny's? What are you, a commie?

Verzio: poisonedpawn78: If you have some method by which we can put the Canadian or German or Japanese government in charge of an American national health care system, hey, I might care about how well it works in those countries.

In an overly simplistic scheme, how about something like this: Uninsured patient shows up at the ER or for a Dr.'s appointment. Hospital/Dr. treats patient, bills Uncle Sam.

This would, in effect, be just like an expansion of Medicare. Not sure what your beef with Medicare is but assuming you DON'T have private insurance wtf do you care? The alternative is no care at all.

Poppa Boner: So what? Governments shouldn't be turning their backs on the health of their own people let alone the ones who have fought for them. At least soldiers joining now may have an idea of what they're getting into. Veterans of past wars were forced into it or told they were unpatriotic cowards if they didn't volunteer. They at least deserve to be given healthcare.

Your troll is weak.

foo monkey: Your troll is weak.

I'm a troll but I wasn't trolling.

Poppa Boner: foo monkey: Your troll is weak.

I'm a troll but I wasn't trolling.

I'm not biting other than to say, "I'm not biting."

Terrydatroll: Soldiers win wars. I have yet to see a cure for cancer. Soldiers 1, Cancer curers 0.

Winning wars is worthless make-work. Every person in the United States military is on welfare, excepting the Navy and Air Force scientists. Give a man a salary to stand here and hold a gun. Give a man a salary to go over there and kill people. Give a man a salary to sit at home and watch SportsCenter. It's all the same to me.

I'm with the minority here. Soldiers are not heroes. They are well compensated and given exceptional job security to perform a job that is relatively dangerous, but not more dangerous than municipal waste management or logging. For someone with no college education, infantry is fat friggin' career. And the ones who do have an education are officers and never in the line of fire anyway.

We pamper our soldiers. I'm sick of the hero worship. They don't deserve free health care for life any more than the heroes who cook our meals and fix our cars.

DerDuschbagen:

My constitution tells me I am endowed by certain INALIENABLE rights, the first of which it mentions is LIFE..

Yes you have the right to life. You don't have a guarantee that tax payers will pay for your health care. I assume you are trolling since no one could be that stupid.

DerDuschbagen: Verzio: poisonedpawn78: If you have some method by which we can put the Canadian or German or Japanese government in charge of an American national health care system, hey, I might care about how well it works in those countries.

In an overly simplistic scheme, how about something like this: Uninsured patient shows up at the ER or for a Dr.'s appointment. Hospital/Dr. treats patient, bills Uncle Sam.

This would, in effect, be just like an expansion of Medicare. Not sure what your beef with Medicare is but assuming you DON'T have private insurance wtf do you care? The alternative is no care at all.

Then why would anyone have insurance??

Fooshards: Dude's major expenses came from an accident not on Uncle Sam's time. Dude didn't have insurance to cover that, and used (abused!) medicaid to finance that stuff. And on top of that, dude didn't have his papers in order for when he died.

Why are people outraged at this? His combat-related expenses WERE paid for by the VA. This $277k was for his brain surgery and resulting care from his welding accident.

Sure, it sucks that a combat veteran died in a bitter fashion, but it was his own fault. And he dragged his live-in-woman into the whole thing too.

because people were too lazy to RTFA. they just knee-jerk reacted to the misleading headline.

famousp: You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.
You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Unless it's a porno. Sometimes they get stiffed before they even do any work.


olddinosaur: If I owe you money and I croak, what I own stands good for what I owe, so I intend to croak owing as little as possible.



Pirates often proudly announce what bad credit risks they are, giving the finger to bill collectors while chanting "Take what you can, give nothing back!" This is why if you have a pre-existing condition such as an eyepatch or wooden pegleg, most insurance providers will reject you outright.

bunner: "Everybody who gets Medicaid is told this is a government program for which we will be expecting repayment,"

Then it's NOT A FUC*ING GOVERNMENT PROGRAM, IS IT, POOKIE?

Where do you suppose they spend all that money that they get from ripping people off for sh*t that taxes are supposed to fund?

Parking tickets, vehicle registration, public toll road, the list goes on.

Want to re-think that concept?

All in all, there are two real issues here, and they don't really have anything to do with each other:

1. A person receiving medical benefits through medicaid didn't actually understand the terms of medicaid, and neither did the person who ultimately bears the responsibility for paying back what's owed.

2. American veterans are treated like garbage.

Both these points are true, but as some people have mentioned, they really don't have any connection to each other.

Unfortunately, despite having a romantic and patriotic image of war, the second the veterans come home, they're treated just like everyone else, not just by society at large, but by the government as well. Despite having a massive amount of physical and mental trauma from fighting, the government will always try to pay nothing and take as much as possible, no matter how much of a hero the veteran was.

Of course, the obvious result of this policy is that virtually no one in their right mind is going to join the military, not when the government and culture does so little for its veterans. For the risk they're taking, they're much better off being a truck driver, construction worker, or commercial fisherman. At least those professions compensate their workers for the tremendous risks they're taking.

Now that I think of it, the concept of 'serving your country' sounds distinctly anti-capitalist. Instead of trying to trick the dumbest kids in the class into signing up, maybe they should just start paying what the service is really worth. $60-80,000 a year sounds about right, to start, considering the danger they're placing themselves in.

SIDE NOTE:

From what I've learned, Rome fell because they assembled a giant army of Germans around their country, but thanks to over-taxation and bureaucracy, weren't able to raise the money to house, clothe, or feed them. Their solution was to basically hide and hope the Germans went away, but not before convincing the Germans to trade their children (including daughters to be concubines) for food, much of it never arriving for them.

The result: the Germans sacked the ever living shiat out of Rome, not only taking their kids back, but also grabbing absolutely everything of value. In fact, they took so much, when a later invading tribe called the Vandals arrived, there was nothing left to steal, so they just wrecked everything, coining the term 'vandalism'.

The first probate I ever handled was the estate of a friend's mom. She died intestate (i.e., without a Will), and the estate's only asset was a house in tear-down condition on a small lot without access - it was essentially worthless. Meanwhile, she owed the state a gazillion dollars for several years of nursing home care. The state's "asset recovery" department was actually quite decent and humane - the guy asked me to provide documentation demonstrating that the extraordinarily low purchase price of the house was legit (a fair concern, given that the buyer was one of the deceased's daughters), he verified that my bill was reasonable, and then he settled for 90% of what was left over. No one inherited much money, but the probate closed with the estate solvent, and the state stamped "paid in full" on its big-ass bill.

When you turn 50, buy a Long Term Care insurance policy. If your parents are over 50 and don't have one, tell them to get one.

Your health care is your responsibility.

onebadgungan: punchaprep: I'm a vet and I'm fighting the VA for my benefits. How do you suppose I pay for health care for my non-service connected injuries. I don't have money or a job. If someone could explain this to me, that would be super.

Suck it up, Nancy.

Easy. The answer is different if you were drafted or if you signed up voluntarily.

You think this is bad, wait till everyone gets government sponsored health care.

Tommy Moo: Terrydatroll: Soldiers win wars. I have yet to see a cure for cancer. Soldiers 1, Cancer curers 0.

Winning wars is worthless make-work. Every person in the United States military is on welfare, excepting the Navy and Air Force scientists. Give a man a salary to stand here and hold a gun. Give a man a salary to go over there and kill people. Give a man a salary to sit at home and watch SportsCenter. It's all the same to me.

I'm with the minority here. Soldiers are not heroes. They are well compensated and given exceptional job security to perform a job that is relatively dangerous, but not more dangerous than municipal waste management or logging. For someone with no college education, infantry is fat friggin' career. And the ones who do have an education are officers and never in the line of fire anyway.

We pamper our soldiers. I'm sick of the hero worship. They don't deserve free health care for life any more than the heroes who cook our meals and fix our cars.

Either you're a troll or an ignorant farktard.

punchaprep: I'm a vet and I'm fighting the VA for my benefits. How do you suppose I pay for health care for my non-service connected injuries. I don't have money or a job. If someone could explain this to me, that would be super.

I'm self employed and on the transitional tricare, TAMP i believe. It's 70 a month and its pretty good. But i only get that for 7 years I think? Not sure, I think it was only 6 months at the start of GWOT and they kept upping it. After that i will have to get continuing health care. Basically the same plan but it will cost around 250 per month. shiatty, but probably still better than most individual health insurance programs.

Being self employed sucks. I know a guy who was paying 3.5k per month. Now granted that was for his entire family, but good gawd!

Making group purchasing and tieing healthcare with an employment benefit was the most retarded decision we ever made as a country.

tenpoundsofcheese: You think this is bad, wait till everyone gets government sponsored health care.

Yeah. Wait until everyone can go to the doctor, get cared for, stay healthy, stay productive, pay nothing for their medical needs, and not have to worry about going broke if there is an actual problem. That'll show them.

Doppleganger871: dave2198: Doppleganger871: Ahha! I was wondering where all this hope and change was going to start popping up. Found it!

Are you mentally retarded?

Nope, liberalism is the mental disorder.

But, imagine this happening to everyone else who is taken care of under state-run medical coverage. Not too far-fetched.

I'm pretty sure the money you owe the hospital doesn't just go away when you die, even if you don't have Medicaid.

Hospitals know how to hire collectors, too...

foo monkey: I'm not biting other than to say, "I'm not biting."

Pussy.

Loren:
Then why would anyone have insurance??

Same reason people in Canada and the EU have it. You want faster/better/different service you pay for it.

tenpoundsofcheese:
Yes you have the right to life. You don't have a guarantee that tax payers will pay for your health care. I assume you are trolling since no one could be that stupid.

Why not? Can you come up with, you know, a sound reason why my tax dollars SHOULD pay for services I don't need (war in Iraq, White House re-decoration, etc.) but deny me the one service I really do need?

logruszed: Want to re-think that concept?

No.

Either he was eligible for Medicaid as a veteran or he wasn't.

"But, but.. he was WELDING!" Yeah, sounds like a work related injury. Was he covered or not? It would seem not. Yet, certainly those bills we paid out of the Medicaid funding. And just as SOON as they attach his estate and recoup what they can of it, they're GONNA PUT ALL THAT BACK INTO THE MEDICAID FUND.


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah, sure.

I'm an estate planning attorney who does Medi-Cal (California Medicaid) work, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

I finally get to live this cliche. For real.

This isn't VA. He was receiving benefits in a State Veteran's home, but those benefits were paid by Medicaid, not the Veteran's Administration, which had nothing to do with it.

Medicaid is a "needs based" (read "poverty") program. To qualify he had to have owned less than $2,000 in countable assets. For the most part, his home and retirement accounts were exempt. The rental home shouldn't normally be exempt, but there's an exception for businesses generating income.

The Medicaid estate claim isn't there because they lived together in a common law relationship (frankly, I disagree with the portion of the article discussing this and believe that the facts aren't all there.) The estate claim exists because he died owning half of the properties. However, if the two of them had married before his death, the Medicaid estate claim would have been deferred until the death of the surviving spouse. Also, there's no transfer penalty for transfers between spouses under the federal regulations, so if they had married and he had gifted his half of the home and the rental property to her, it should be completely exempt from the estate claim ("should" meaning this works in California, but maybe not Iowa depending on Iowa's rules.)

Of course if they had married and he wasn't in a nursing home on Medicaid, both spouses (the family unit) would have had to have qualified for benefits together. I imagine that she may have had too much money of her own for the two of them to qualify together.

In California, the state Department of Health Care Services will accept a voluntary lien instead of immediate payment, so if the same policy exists in Iowa, she could keep her home.

As for irrevocable trusts, the rules vary from state to state, but in California, they work very well because there isn't a transfer penalty imposed in California for gifting away your exempt principal residence. I've done over 350 of them since 2003. I can't give a definitive answer for what they could have done in Iowa, but I can tell you that this woman's dilemma exists in part because she didn't get the right legal advice ahead of time.

I recognize that many people would agree that Medicaid planning is a bit of a scam - collecting benefits from the government while avoiding the eventual estate claim. But it's still legal.

Anyone interested in this sort of thing can find a list of attorneys who do elder law/Medicaid work at www.naela.com.

DerDuschbagen: Why not? Can you come up with, you know, a sound reason why my tax dollars SHOULD pay for services I don't need (war in Iraq, White House re-decoration, etc.) but deny me the one service I really do need?

Representation has come to mean "we let you pick your own thief to come and play ball with us and spend your money on sh*t you'd never spend it on".

Somehow, representation should offer more choices.

fordjae: I read this an am thankful I'm a Canadian. I'm scared, though, because our right-wing ideologue Prime Minister wants reduce our hard-earned Universality.

You have a Medicaid, that has to be payed back? We have Medicare. It is free for everyone, and never has to be paid back. It's called Traditional Democratic Socialism. Yours is Third-Way social democracy at best.

Never has to be paid back ? Are you mental ? You pay for it your whole life with your taxes ! Then eventually successive generations pay for it until it gets to the point where your entire society collapses from the debt load. It will happen....eventually.

jasnotron: Then eventually successive generations pay for it until it gets to the point where your entire society collapses from the debt load. It will happen....eventually.

Yeah, because medical care is like being touched by God and anybody with an M.D. should get progressively more money and 13.00 Tylenols should rule the earth because being in a hospital is like a privilege that no poor person deserves and every aspect of medicine costs should triple annually until that crushing debt you spoke of is more fact than fiction.

darth_shatner: famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

But why not go the whole way and privatise the military - after all - why stiff your soldier for keeping you safe?

If socialised healthcare is such a failure maybe socialised armies should be on the way out too. Then you'd get the best people who actually want to be defending you - not some poor hick from a trailer park who joined up to get a cheap education.

One thing to remember is that "socialized armies" are actually the one thing that our government is supposed to provide for us.

DerDuschbagen: My constitution tells me I am endowed by certain INALIENABLE rights, the first of which it mentions is LIFE.

I think you need to go back and look at your Constitution again. It doesn't mention what you think it does.

I like how when they were talking about the evils of the old government, the Founding Fathers talked about "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", but there's not a lot about any of that in the laws starting the (second) new government.

I am a nursing home social worker who deals with this issue constantly. I made a few fact-based statements over 100 posts ago which absolutely no one has referenced. Of course, they were just comments about my experience within the system, not ravings about God and Country. Carry on.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Despite the fact it's a poor comparison to the article, I'm afraif this is rather inaccurate history. Previous to the Marian reforms (at or around 100bc), you couldn't join the Roman army without having some money. It would be unlikely that you (as a Roman citizen of enough money to get in the army) would have any great amount of land, as most of it was tied up in latifundia, the so called public land that was 'leased' by the Senatorial classes. The end of the republican era comes about 60 years later with the death of Caesar and the rise of the second triumvirate, during which under the Marian reforms, veterans would be paid in land, but not land anywhere near Rome (as not to impinge on land already claimed by Senators, and also to have fighting men on scene for any future uprisings). The daggermen from the late republic weren't soldiers who'd been ruined by the state, they were the usual cut-throats you find in any city (see: the death of Publius Clodius Pulcher by Titus Annius Milo's "gladiators"). And so to your last point, the republic didn't fall apart due to a surfeit of upset legionnaires, it fell apart because it was pulled apart from above, in the Senate.

Until we address outlandish medical fees and star closing the gap between what things cost and what they need to be "resold" at to be profitable, health care for the poor is going to be a mirage.

And it shouldn't be.

Some things actually work better without a tautological profit motive.

olddinosaur: "sum Dum Gai:" You are probably technically correct, but I am practically correct.

In law, there is no difference between technicality and practicality. If you rile the right person with your post-mortem plans, they might just pursue your assets for what you owe. I'm hoping that you just don't owe anything.

I think a clearer and more pertinant analogy might be selling your mortgaged house for $10 to your kids prior to your death. It's not going to hold up, the bank is going to come for your assets regardless.

logruszed: Retort: chu2dogg: Retort: TheOtherGuy: Famousp:

You don't stiff your veterans for saving your freakin' ass and way of life.

/FTFY

Incorrect. He fought in Vietnam.

yeah.. that whole communism thing was totally cool

I'm sorry, did the Vietnam war take place in America?

That war was something you should all be horribly ashamed of.

Read my above comments on my thoughts on that stupid and pointless war.

Then go eat a mile of dicks for preaching to us about our own history. Like your ancestral and national record is pure as the driven snow.

My ancestor was pretty much responsible for the arrival of the white man here. Doesn't mean I can't comment on more recent atrocities for which some of the people involved are still alive. Nobody has even mentioned Iraq yet. As uncomfortable as it is to have to acknowledge it on the internet for the rest of your life, you can't deny the US is a warlike nation with little respect for life.

Kensey: DerDuschbagen: My constitution tells me I am endowed by certain INALIENABLE rights, the first of which it mentions is LIFE.

I think you need to go back and look at your Constitution again. It doesn't mention what you think it does.

I like how when they were talking about the evils of the old government, the Founding Fathers talked about "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness", but there's not a lot about any of that in the laws starting the (second) new government.

My bad, I goofed. It's the declaration of independence of course. Still, it echoes the sentiment that, I believe, is "self-evident" nonetheless. That a primary task of any government is to take care of its citizens. Hundreds of years ago death by war from foreign enemies coming over to your neck of the woods was very much a daily concern. Today that concern is far eclipsed by a devastating illness that will cost tens of thousands in treatment your family simply can't afford.

Again, let's be reminded that the G8 nations all have some form of universal coverage. They figured out how to provide for this basic need without ruining their economy along the way. All, that is, except the U.S.

Add this to the list of why I'm not in support of government involvement with health care. It will be interesting to see examples of this when "health care reform" gets passed.

Here's a hint: Health care reform isn't about making sure uninsured are covered.

Better get your assets protected, or be giving them all away before you die.

jasnotron: fordjae: I read this an am thankful I'm a Canadian. I'm scared, though, because our right-wing ideologue Prime Minister wants reduce our hard-earned Universality.

You have a Medicaid, that has to be payed back? We have Medicare. It is free for everyone, and never has to be paid back. It's called Traditional Democratic Socialism. Yours is Third-Way social democracy at best.

Never has to be paid back ? Are you mental ? You pay for it your whole life with your taxes ! Then eventually successive generations pay for it until it gets to the point where your entire society collapses from the debt load. It will happen....eventually.

So what do you think happens with privatised care? Where do all these sick people who are supposedly a burden on the tax system under socialised healthcare disappear to when the system is private?

onebadgungan: tenpoundsofcheese: You think this is bad, wait till everyone gets government sponsored health care.

Yeah. Wait until everyone can go to the doctor, get cared for, stay healthy, stay productive, pay nothing for their medical needs, and not have to worry about going broke if there is an actual problem. That'll show them.


Wait until you sit down to do your taxes after the first full year of your "pay nothing for your medical" utopia. You'll get a direct look at how not free state run medical insurance is.

OHIP (Ontario insurance plan) USED to be a good, well-run program up until the time the Liberals (party name...not a pejorative term) won. Even before the Liberals ruined it, I recall distinctly receiving just 70% of my paycheque...and I was earning less than $30K. Rates just went up from there if you made more and you don't get it back in a tax refund (typically) like you tend to do in the US.

farkuufarkinfark: Add this to the list of why I'm not in support of government involvement with health care. It will be interesting to see examples of this when "health care reform" gets passed.

Here's a hint: Health care reform isn't about making sure uninsured are covered.

Better get your assets protected, or be giving them all away before you die.

You act like companies don't go after you for health care bills in the private world. Aren't you cute!

* pinches cheeks *

One of the biggest reasons people go bankrupt is hospital bills. Not from the government going after you for Medicaid payment, but from the private hospitals coming after you.

Animatronik: Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

I always heard it had something to do with Roman provincial officials offering food to starving Goths in exchange for using their daughters as concubines, and then forgetting to give them the food.

It was probably the same guys doing both.

or the aquaducts they sealed with lead so they wouldn't leak.

craig328: onebadgungan: tenpoundsofcheese: You think this is bad, wait till everyone gets government sponsored health care.

Yeah. Wait until everyone can go to the doctor, get cared for, stay healthy, stay productive, pay nothing for their medical needs, and not have to worry about going broke if there is an actual problem. That'll show them.


Wait until you sit down to do your taxes after the first full year of your "pay nothing for your medical" utopia. You'll get a direct look at how not free state run medical insurance is.

OHIP (Ontario insurance plan) USED to be a good, well-run program up until the time the Liberals (party name...not a pejorative term) won. Even before the Liberals ruined it, I recall distinctly receiving just 70% of my paycheque...and I was earning less than $30K. Rates just went up from there if you made more and you don't get it back in a tax refund (typically) like you tend to do in the US.

Well, I'd have more money for my taxes if I didn't have to pay for all this health care. And even if I owed more on my taxes, at least I wouldn't worry about being bankrupt, or losing everything because I was hit by a car and needed to be in a hospital for a week. It's been pointed out numerous times in numerous threads about health care that people in Canada pay less per capita than people in America for their health care - taxes included.

punchaprep: I'm a vet and I'm fighting the VA for my benefits. How do you suppose I pay for health care for my non-service connected injuries. I don't have money or a job. If someone could explain this to me, that would be super.

Do what the rest of us have to do. Find a job and make some money.

Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the job our soldiers do and respect those who serve greatly. If you were injured in the line of duty, or if it is a condition brought on by the same, then by all rights the military should pay for it for the rest of your life (and I have no problems with my tax dollars being put towards that end instead of welfare and medicaid), otherwise don't ask me, and the rest of the country, to pay you for an injury sustained outside of the military.

Biscuit Tin: I am a nursing home social worker who deals with this issue constantly. I made a few fact-based statements over 100 posts ago which absolutely no one has referenced. Of course, they were just comments about my experience within the system, not ravings about God and Country. Carry on.

Okay, so let me ask you a question...if the woman was his common law wife, why doesn't she get the same protection?

Gilligan13: Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the job our soldiers do and respect those who serve greatly. If you were injured in the line of duty, or if it is a condition brought on by the same, then by all rights the military should pay for it for the rest of your life (and I have no problems with my tax dollars being put towards that end instead of welfare and medicaid), otherwise don't ask me, and the rest of the country, to pay you for an injury sustained outside of the military.

So you dont feel veterans deserve extra benefits for being willing to put their lives on the line for their country.

Eh its just a life, right? fark em?

(minor troll. While I'm a fan of financial responsibilty, I also firmly believe in taking care of the people who have served the country, whether or not their medical needs came from servature or otherwise).

Damn it's easy to tell who didn't read/comprehend the article.
It's the usual whargarrbl suspects too.

/iowa state nursing home =/= VA
//yeah I know it's been covered, reiterating.

Queensowntalia: Gilligan13: Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the job our soldiers do and respect those who serve greatly. If you were injured in the line of duty, or if it is a condition brought on by the same, then by all rights the military should pay for it for the rest of your life (and I have no problems with my tax dollars being put towards that end instead of welfare and medicaid), otherwise don't ask me, and the rest of the country, to pay you for an injury sustained outside of the military.

So you dont feel veterans deserve extra benefits for being willing to put their lives on the line for their country.

Eh its just a life, right? fark em?

(minor troll. While I'm a fan of financial responsibilty, I also firmly believe in taking care of the people who have served the country, whether or not their medical needs came from servature or otherwise).

Not really a troll. I have a lot of family and friends in the military (all 4 branches) and myself tried to enlist, but was medically ineligible. But for someone to try and claim life benefits from 2-4 years of service, and then use them to cover an injury sustained years later is like me trying to get my first job to cover an workers comp injury sustained 10 years later at a different job. No relation whatsoever. Again, any related condition sustained or related to duty SHOULD be covered for life.

As for career veterans, retirees, disbled during duty? I do believe that they do deserve benefits the rest of their life for serving as long as they did. 20 years plus is no joke.

Remember, this is the same government you want to take over health care.

Vertdang: Damn it's easy to tell who didn't read/comprehend the article.
It's the usual whargarrbl suspects too.

/iowa state nursing home =/= VA
//yeah I know it's been covered, reiterating.

randomjsa: Remember, this is the same government you want to take over health care.

SEE?! That's what I'm on about!

Ok, first off, the Veterans Home is NOT part of the VA. It was a state run home, just like the ones in Minnesota are. They are part of a state agency. The VA is a federal agency.

Second, the woman needs to contact a lawyer.

Blompkin: Now that I think of it, the concept of 'serving your country' sounds distinctly anti-capitalist. Instead of trying to trick the dumbest kids in the class into signing up, maybe they should just start paying what the service is really worth. $60-80,000 a year sounds about right, to start, considering the danger they're placing themselves in.

Thats a lot of money for an entry level job that requires a GED at best, even with hazard pay. Is there an economic advantage to pay grunts that much when you can get some to do it at half price?

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Universal healthcare would fix this

onebadgungan: Either you're a troll or an ignorant farktard.

God you are a lazy fark. I at least presented a case. You're the troll. You can't just walk by and snipe someone. Make an argument, dumbass.

SecretAgentWoman: He should have taken the time to ensure his girlfriend would be in the clear once he died. Sounds like they assumed since she was part owner his half would automatically go to her, unfortunately, that isn't true.

I do love how they made her his "common law wife" so they could go after her specifically.

It's the exact opposite. She was made the "common law wife" to protect her, somewhat. If she was just the girlfriend, the state would get the entire amount of his estate. Since she's being considered the "wife" now, she gets to keep half of it, and only give the other half to the estate.

She is in no way liable for the bill out of her own assets.

Example #904829034802938402 of "Veterans to whom rules apparently do not apply, and the morans who support them."

Fooshards: Dude's major expenses came from an accident not on Uncle Sam's time. Dude didn't have insurance to cover that, and used (abused!) medicaid to finance that stuff. And on top of that, dude didn't have his papers in order for when he died.

Why are people outraged at this? His combat-related expenses WERE paid for by the VA. This $277k was for his brain surgery and resulting care from his welding accident.

Sure, it sucks that a combat veteran died in a bitter fashion, but it was his own fault. And he dragged his live-in-woman into the whole thing too.

This.

famousp:

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

Because she's cute?

/rimshot

Poppa Boner: Pussy.

NO YOU.

jackmalice: I'm an estate planning attorney who does Medi-Cal (California Medicaid) work, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.


Nice post, Jack. Thanks. As someone who's nearing 50, I imagine I should have already done some estate planning. I'll make a point of contacting one of your colleagues in Arizona.

DaShredda: I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.

We've been working at it for awhile now. If we ever
succeed there will be lots of us in line for the
medal ceremony saying we were glad to do it, no need
to call us heroes. In the meantime, STFU.

Retort: Sum Dum Gai: olddinosaur: That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

A revocable living trust doesn't help at all if you or your estate gets sued by creditors, in fact it actually works against your interests; with probate, the creditor has a limited time in which to sue the estate, and since a living trust bypasses probate, it bypasses that as well.

An irrevocable living trust can protect some of your assets, but a) this transfer of assets counts against your eligibility for Medicaid in the first place, and b) you lose all control of the assets except as specified by the terms of the trust; you can't modify the terms of the trust or anything. Creditors can only take those assets that your fund gives you.

It seems to me that it's just a better idea to gift or sell on the cheap everything to your heirs when you know your time is coming and in return ask for a stipend from their income, banked against the value of your assets when you die. If you trust your kids, do it when you retire.

That worked so well for King Lear.

Queensowntalia: Gilligan13: Don't get me wrong, I truly appreciate the job our soldiers do and respect those who serve greatly. If you were injured in the line of duty, or if it is a condition brought on by the same, then by all rights the military should pay for it for the rest of your life (and I have no problems with my tax dollars being put towards that end instead of welfare and medicaid), otherwise don't ask me, and the rest of the country, to pay you for an injury sustained outside of the military.

So you dont feel veterans deserve extra benefits for being willing to put their lives on the line for their country.

Eh its just a life, right? fark em?

(minor troll. While I'm a fan of financial responsibilty, I also firmly believe in taking care of the people who have served the country, whether or not their medical needs came from servature or otherwise).

In my anecdotal experience most of them do it because they don't have a plethora of better options in life. The reward is in the opportunities that open up to many of them due to the training and experience they received. IF they are injured while they serve then I agree, take care of them for life. If they are injured a decade later on the job and were not insured then what makes them any different than any other uninsured worker?

Poppa Boner: I'm sure all the "Support our Troops" magnets got him into heaven though.

So the guy gets hurt working a private job, then goes to the VA for treatment. Now the VA wants some of their moeny back.

If the guy would have gone to a hospital/rehab/nursing home, they would have asked for money back too.

Not to hard to understand

apiarist: olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.

When you die, what you have stands good for what you owe. If there is a surplus, your heirs inherit, but if there's a shortfall, your creditors lose.

That is why all my property is tied up in a living trust, where I have "sold" it to various people for $10o cash in hand and "other good and valuable considerations," but while I am alive I have full use of the property--as well as the right to cancel the sale at any time, upon refund of $10, and the buyer has no recourse.

Thus when I croak, other people get all my property instantly, there are no wills, no courts, no lawyers--nothing.

If you sue, $10 is all you collect.

If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

I certainly hope you didn't pay too much for that trust. It won't work that way in any jurisdiction with which I'm familiar. You can't transfer money from your left pocket to your right pocket and claim "This is no longer mine, although I can still use it freely. No creditor can claim it because I say so."

Laughable that anyone thinks that would be successful.

This makes me feel a little better. I've always been jealous of the people whose parents tried to actually leave them an estate. Most days it feels like my mother specifically set up her affairs to screw me over.

I am responsible enough for her to reside in my home for over a year. I am responsible enough to make her health care decisions and write the checks for her bills, yet in the wild event that she leaves an estate (won't happen) her will states that I have to first submit any request for money in writing to my boomer-aged cousin. He can reject or accept my request.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

Difference is this guy was retired, it was a medicare program that normally gets reimbursed and the state didn't come for the assets during his life time. This goes on with non-vets as well. Its SOP when the state picked up his tab for years before he died.

Now if the voted away his pension and VA benis before he kicked then you would have a case

veteran

lilplatinum:

Thats a lot of money for an entry level job that requires a GED at best, even with hazard pay. Is there an economic advantage to pay grunts that much when you can get some to do it at half price?

You have a point, but what I was getting at is that if you didn't assume that soldiers was a socialized profession, and treated it more like contractor work, then no, that doesn't seem that outrageous.

You're probably right about the amount though, around $40,000-60,000 sounds closer to correct, at least to start. Compared with what you'd have to pay skilled mercenaries, that isn't so unreasonable.

The problem is, in regards to the military, the government wants to have its cake and eat it too. They want to run the military like a socialized service, where everyone gives all the effort they can, and they receive their basic needs in return, but the moment the soldiers leave the service, the government wants to treat them as if they were normal citizens in a capitalist society. They have services and benefits for veterans, of course, but they're never nearly enough, not when you factor in the sacrifice the soldiers have made, for almost nothing in return.

If the government just paid them upfront, with a reasonable wage in exchange for their highly specialized knowledge, personal sacrifices, and tremendous risks they're taking, then treating them like normal citizens when they're old and/or wounded wouldn't seem so bad.

I mean, you don't feel bad for truck drivers that work for the government, do you? There's a lot of risk, and many of them suffer from psychological and physical problems relating to their work, but we all know this, and they're compensated upfront for these risks and sacrifices.

Now imagine truck drivers getting paid nearly nothing, recruited through aggressive and deceptive means, and then abandoned in their old age, leaving them nearly penniless. It'd seem rather ridiculous, wouldn't it?

ANOTHER SIDE NOTE

As someone else mentioned, the problem with Roman soldiers not getting paid, or losing everything when they return home, first happened long before the fall of Rome. That happened near the beginning, when the senate still was in charge, and the result was that the soldiers revolted, and a representative of the people was added to the senate, called the Tribune (I believe, it's a little early in the day to be certain of exact names), with veto power.

The same thing probably happened again later, but as many have mentioned, this wasn't the reason that Rome fell. Overall, it's because the system became so corrupt and bureaucratic that they couldn't raise an effective army, and as a result, German invaders simply washed over the country.

famousp: Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

olddinosaur: Pretty much hogwash.


If the guy didn't have his stuff in order, it was all his own fault.

citizen905: Mewling liberals, they think someone else should have to pay for their medical care. A veteran is man enough to die for his country when he is young, so he should be willing when he is old and destitute. It's disgraceful that so many of them turn into socialists when they get old.

A human being and his family get wiped out by simply becoming ill and you can even think this sort of shiat?

What the fark is wrong with you people?

Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Move to Canada. I pay $5 in parking for a trip to the emergency room.

Robin_G: A human being and his family get wiped out by simply becoming ill and you can even think this sort of shiat?

What the fark is wrong with you people?

He didn't just become ill. He was injured in a welding accident and was apparently uninsured.

It isn't even close to the same thing.

Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Old people have no concept what the rest of us pay for medical care. My mother went through a stage where she called me every day and criticized me for "not having Blue Cross and Blue Shield" as if I just chose to be uninsured to piss her off. When she became totally debilitated with Alzheimer's, I figured out why she refused to believe what the monthly premiums would be for me.

As part of her retirement package, she gets BCBS for something ridiculous, like $100 a month. At 81. She'd shiat if she knew how much her nursing home costs, and that it's coming out of her bank account because she did not purchase any sort of long term care insurance.

Retirement package? Pension? Might as well say 23 skiddoo to me, it has as much generational relevance.

/off to work

Sorry I assed up the italics.

Robin_G: Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Move to Canada. I pay $5 in parking for a trip and fork over half my paycheckto the emergency room.

FTFY....assuming you earn a paycheck that amounts to anything, of course

Move to Canada. I pay $5 in parking and fork over half my paycheck for a trip to the emergency room.

whoops

jst3p: Robin_G: A human being and his family get wiped out by simply becoming ill and you can even think this sort of shiat?

What the fark is wrong with you people?

He didn't just become ill. He was injured in a welding accident and was apparently uninsured.

It isn't even close to the same thing.

Would it have been any different if he had gotten cancer? No.

Same thing = same thing.

Robin_G: jst3p: Robin_G: A human being and his family get wiped out by simply becoming ill and you can even think this sort of shiat?

What the fark is wrong with you people?

He didn't just become ill. He was injured in a welding accident and was apparently uninsured.

It isn't even close to the same thing.

Would it have been any different if he had gotten cancer? No.

Same thing = same thing.

Did he get cancer?
One situation is 100% avoidable. They aren't the same thing.

Torch the property first.

simpsonfan: Torch the property first.

At least take out all the copper.

japlemon: Robin_G: Cheesus: I did not know this. I sincerely doubt my grandmother knows this. Well, so much for her house I guess. The hospital sends her bills all the time and she rips them up saying "Medicare is supposed to pay for it all". I'd kill for a $32 bill for a trip to the emergency room.

Move to Canada. I pay $5 in parking for a trip and fork over half my paycheckto the emergency room.

FTFY....assuming you earn a paycheck that amounts to anything, of course

Popular myth.

There's a really good article on it here: http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427

Truth is though, I'd happily pay a pretty sizable chunk of (my pretty sizable) paycheck every month to help ensure that everyone in my country has health care. The idea that a person has to pay to be healthy is insane. What's the expression? If you don't have your health you don't have anything? I guess you folks want to make that one a reality.

Sad. Really, really sad.

jst3p: Robin_G: jst3p: Robin_G: A human being and his family get wiped out by simply becoming ill and you can even think this sort of shiat?

What the fark is wrong with you people?

He didn't just become ill. He was injured in a welding accident and was apparently uninsured.

It isn't even close to the same thing.

Would it have been any different if he had gotten cancer? No.

Same thing = same thing.

Did he get cancer?
One situation is 100% avoidable. They aren't the same thing.

I'm not sure you entirely understand the meaning of the word "accident".

Dictionary.com defines it as:

ac⋅ci⋅dent
/ˈæksɪdənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ak-si-duhnt] Show IPA
Use accident in a Sentence
-noun
1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3. any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.

Seems to me that 'accidents' are, by definition, unavoidable.

Now, if the point you are trying to make is that he did something stupid, got hurt and should now pay for it, well, that's something else altogether, but I didn't see anything in the article that suggested he was a screwup, only that he was injured in an explosion. He may not have even been the guy who caused the explosion. Hardly his fault then was it?

famousp
Medical care is a service which must be paid for with money.

For some reason, when someone receives a large hospital bill for the huge number of complicated procedures performed on their bodies, they throw a fit.

You don't stiff your plumber for fixing your pipes.

You don't stiff your mechanic for fixing your car.

Why stiff your doctor for fixing your body?

That is because my plumber and mechanic don't charge me the equivalent of $5 for a single Q-tip or $1000 a day to lay in a bed. If health care was not so over priced, I would not have a problem with paying. But since a single operation can cost more than most people make in a year, sometimes 5 or 10 years, there is a huge problem.

I had the flu (type A) for a couple days, then I got pneumonia. I was sick! Went to the hospital because I could barely breath. Oxygen saturation was 83%, breaths per minute at 100.

They put me in a room, put me on meds, and kept me overnight. I felt like a different person the next day and I go home. They did a great job.

Several weeks later I receive the bill. $4871.00 for a single day in the hospital to fix pneumonia. The health care costs in this country are out of control. I am still paying that damn bill.

Ennuipoet: In Rome, during the late Republic, the Veterans would come home from the wars to find all they had was taken in taxes and sold to the rich. Their lands were tilled by slaves and they were left penniless and broken to fend for themselves as best they could. These men were promised land and rewards for their service and paid with poverty. Men trained by the State in the art and science of war are dangerous tools, without hope they may be wielded by dangerous men. The Republic fell in the small part to this kind of behavior when Caesar and subsequent Emperors provided for the welfare of the Veterans to curry support.

I'm just saying, you know, history is pretty interesting.

I hope you like reruns.

Robin_G: Seems to me that 'accidents' are, by definition, unavoidable.

Now, if the point you are trying to make is that he did something stupid, got hurt and should now pay for it, well, that's something else altogether, but I didn't see anything in the article that suggested he was a screwup, only that he was injured in an explosion. He may not have even been the guy who caused the explosion. Hardly his fault then was it?


If he were not the guy who caused the explosion then sure I will concede your point. But I find that to be a stretch.

If he were welding in his garage and had no insurance, then the situation was in fact avoidable.

I can not say with 100% certainty that I will not be involved in an accident today. I can say with 100% certainty that I will not be involved in a hang-gliding accident while not insured.

jst3p: If he were not the guy who caused the explosion then sure I will concede your point. But I find that to be a stretch.

I'm not sure why you find that to be a stretch, but I think we could agree that not all accidents are the cause, directly or indirectly, of the person who was in them. Certainly very, very few cases of disease are the direct cause of the person who gets sick. Yet, if the person who is injured or sick is unable to afford appropriate coverage, he may well be faced with the possibility that he cannot afford to fix whatever health problem he is now afflicted with. Despite the fact that he did nothing whatsoever to cause his current condition he now faces death, suffering, or at the very least, bankruptcy.

So, the question remains. Why on Earth would you turn a blind eye to people who have, through no fault of their own, been less fortunate than you - to the extent that they will die, or have the quality of their lives severely diminished, when you could contribute a modest amount of your paycheck to help ensure it doesn't happen like that?

(The question is, of course, rhetorical. We both know why some people don't want to pay for those less fortunate to have health care.)

Robin_G: (The question is, of course, rhetorical. We both know why some people don't want to pay for those less fortunate to have health care.)

If only people who were less fortunate than I lacked health care you would have a point. There are a great many people who find themselves in this situation and know the steps that need to be taken in order to remedy this. I used to be one of them. I don't owe my position today to luck.

And "bankruptcy" is really not that bad of a way out for someone who is pretty low on the economic ladder to begin with, in fact it is a pretty good safety net.

jst3p: Robin_G: (The question is, of course, rhetorical. We both know why some people don't want to pay for those less fortunate to have health care.)

If only people who were less fortunate than I lacked health care you would have a point. There are a great many people who find themselves in this situation and know the steps that need to be taken in order to remedy this. I used to be one of them. I don't owe my position today to luck.

And "bankruptcy" is really not that bad of a way out for someone who is pretty low on the economic ladder to begin with, in fact it is a pretty good safety net.

I'm sorry, but I think that's a pretty naive statement on both parts. Yes, there are people who deliberately don't take the proper steps to remedy their situation. But a good number simply can't. I would say that most who are not covered simply can't afford it. (Perhaps that's naive on my part, but that's how I see it). I'll skip the luck bit. Luck always plays a part - but let's not go there.

As to bankruptcy being a good option, I think you may be referring to a time in the recent past when such things didn't mean much. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in this economy with a bankruptcy on my credit report. And that's for a relatively young person.

Can you imagine, you are 53, recently 'downsized', under insured and get cancer? You're screwed. You get the treatments you have to by selling everything you have, including your home. Six months later, you're healthy again, but still owe a quarter million. You declare bankruptcy and start over. At 53.

Can this end any way other than 'work until you die, you unlucky bastard'. (Sure it can, but is it likely to? No.)

And this doesn't even touch the screwing around insurance companies do to try to cheat their claimants out of what they have paid for.

I guess I look at it this way. Moving past the idea of should taxpayers be responsible for each others' health, I am more concerned about a system that seeks to profit from the health care system. Insurance companies are there to make money. Nothing else. If they don't, they do something to make sure that they do. That thought alone should be enough to scare you silly. :)

I busted my ass my entire life trying hard in school, reading, studying, etc etc etc.

I didn't party hard, I didn't fark around, and I spent my youth trying to work towards greatness.

The government gives some hick a gun, tells him to pull the trigger, and he's supposed to be taken care of for life?fark that shiat!

Soldiers are peons.

People who cure cancer are heroes.




Good for you that you studied. You aren't great, though. Great people don't call themselves great. Great people have humility, along with whatever else they have that makes them great.

"Not partying" does not equal "good person."

Not all soldiers are hicks. Some are, but not everyone who works hard and studies is smart, either.

Him pulling a trigger has nothing to do with what benefits he's entitled to.



Just because you don't like something, it doesn't make it wrong.

But you're probably trolling, so it doesn't really matter.

Tommy Moo: onebadgungan: Either you're a troll or an ignorant farktard.

God you are a lazy fark. I at least presented a case. You're the troll. You can't just walk by and snipe someone. Make an argument, dumbass.

OK.

I was in the military. Yes, much of what they do there is make-work. But it is to keep combat-ready.

They don't get paid that much until much later in their careers. The medical care is not too good if you have anything worse than a hangnail, and the benefits barely pay for a decent college education. You have to buy your own uniforms and work clothes, like everywhere else. It's not welfare, it's a job, a low-paying one, and until garbage collectors are killed at a rate equaling soldiers it's a much more dangerous job than almost anything, barring fireman and cops.

So, as I said before, you are either a troll or an ignorant ass.

Robin_G: Can you imagine, you are 53, recently 'downsized', under insured and get cancer? You're screwed. You get the treatments you have to by selling everything you have, including your home. Six months later, you're healthy again, but still owe a quarter million. You declare bankruptcy and start over. At 53.

If you aren't in good enough shape to handle a bankruptcy at 53 you have already failed.

I support Vetrans.

1: VA care for service related injury or illness.

2: reduced income tax rates equal to the years of service

3: reduced fees for school

4: reduced property taxes equal to the years of service

5: if you die in combat your spouse pays no taxes ... ever

jst3p: Robin_G: Can you imagine, you are 53, recently 'downsized', under insured and get cancer? You're screwed. You get the treatments you have to by selling everything you have, including your home. Six months later, you're healthy again, but still owe a quarter million. You declare bankruptcy and start over. At 53.

If you aren't in good enough shape to handle a bankruptcy at 53 you have already failed.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Whatever financial shape you were in before you got sick and declared bankruptcy is pretty meaningless. Come out the other side, you've got nothing. No savings, no home, no credit.

So now, at 53, you're looking at living in an apartment (can't get a mortgage) and starting with zero savings toward retirement. If you're lucky you still have a job to go back to now that you are healthy again.

And 12 years left until (normal age) retirement. I would suggest that most people would have no hope to save up enough for retirement in twelve years. And let's not forget, in most cases we're not talking about people who earn $100K a year. We're talking about normal folks earning an average wage.

Maybe I've missed something here, but what would you do to prepare for a bankruptcy? (Keep it legal and without the use of a crystal ball please...) :)

Robin_G: jst3p: Robin_G: Can you imagine, you are 53, recently 'downsized', under insured and get cancer? You're screwed. You get the treatments you have to by selling everything you have, including your home. Six months later, you're healthy again, but still owe a quarter million. You declare bankruptcy and start over. At 53.

If you aren't in good enough shape to handle a bankruptcy at 53 you have already failed.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Whatever financial shape you were in before you got sick and declared bankruptcy is pretty meaningless. Come out the other side, you've got nothing. No savings, no home, no credit.

So now, at 53, you're looking at living in an apartment (can't get a mortgage) and starting with zero savings toward retirement. If you're lucky you still have a job to go back to now that you are healthy again.

And 12 years left until (normal age) retirement. I would suggest that most people would have no hope to save up enough for retirement in twelve years. And let's not forget, in most cases we're not talking about people who earn $100K a year. We're talking about normal folks earning an average wage.

Maybe I've missed something here, but what would you do to prepare for a bankruptcy? (Keep it legal and without the use of a crystal ball please...) :)

Perhaps I am wrong but I am pretty sure you can protect a house, a car and some amount of other assets in bankruptcy. Declaring bankruptcy does not leave you destitute, unless you were destitute before.

jst3p: Perhaps I am wrong but I am pretty sure you can protect a house, a car and some amount of other assets in bankruptcy. Declaring bankruptcy does not leave you destitute, unless you were destitute before.

Ah, but we're not talking about bankruptcy due to outstanding bills. We're talking about a special kind of fun. Illness that leads to bankruptcy.

Most hospitals now want a good part of the money up front for treatment. If you don't have it, you don't get treated. To that end, many people with expensive illnesses end up selling the house, car and anything else they own in order to get treated. If they're lucky, the illness is cured before they run out of money and/or stuff to sell. If not, then they declare bankruptcy.

Under normal circumstances, you'd be right. You can often protect your home and a car when you file bankruptcy, but with an illness or injury bankruptcy, you tend not to have those things anymore at the time of filing.

It's just a horrible mess when this happens to someone and if you are without insurance, or under insured, you're pretty screwed. I'm not even sure that people who are in the insurance industry or are 'Con socialized medicine' would argue that one. I think the big argument is whether or not you should have to pick up the tab for your neighbour's hardship if he gets sick or hurt. I say yes, the 'Con' folks say no.

onebadgungan: Tommy Moo: onebadgungan: Either you're a troll or an ignorant farktard.

God you are a lazy fark. I at least presented a case. You're the troll. You can't just walk by and snipe someone. Make an argument, dumbass.

OK.

I was in the military. Yes, much of what they do there is make-work. But it is to keep combat-ready.

They don't get paid that much until much later in their careers. The medical care is not too good if you have anything worse than a hangnail, and the benefits barely pay for a decent college education. You have to buy your own uniforms and work clothes, like everywhere else. It's not welfare, it's a job, a low-paying one, and until garbage collectors are killed at a rate equaling soldiers it's a much more dangerous job than almost anything, barring fireman and cops.

So, as I said before, you are either a troll or an ignorant ass.

Or wants you benefits or is pissed off that the slice of the pie he is getting isn't bigger because you are getting yours. Count noses there are more and more like him. Eventually he'll be in the majority and then it gets interesting. Voters cutting veterans off vs pissed off vets with guns I wonder how that is going to turn out.

veteran former enlisted trigger man. And yes I have a degree and a job. Got out & got mine before it gets voted away.

Robin_G: It's just a horrible mess when this happens to someone and if you are without insurance, or under insured, you're pretty screwed. I'm not even sure that people who are in the insurance industry or are 'Con socialized medicine' would argue that one. I think the big argument is whether or not you should have to pick up the tab for your neighbour's hardship if he gets sick or hurt. I say yes, the 'Con' folks say no.


I agree we are talking about different scenarios but even in today's system we all pay for our neighbour's hardships.

jst3p: I agree we are talking about different scenarios but even in today's system we all pay for our neighbour's hardships

Agreed.

But in this case, it seems as though the system in Canada (and other socialized health care countries) works to a reasonable degree, but in the US it seems broken. It could only seem that way, but when I hear stories about people losing their homes because they got cancer or had a heart attack, I can't help but see it as broken.

japlemon: Move to Canada. I pay $5 in parking and fork over half my paycheck for a trip to the emergency room.

Wow, really? Sounds like a good deal to me. I mean, right now I fork over around 35% and get nothing.

Robin_G: jst3p: I agree we are talking about different scenarios but even in today's system we all pay for our neighbour's hardships

Agreed.

But in this case, it seems as though the system in Canada (and other socialized health care countries) works to a reasonable degree, but in the US it seems broken. It could only seem that way, but when I hear stories about people losing their homes because they got cancer or had a heart attack, I can't help but see it as broken.

I am no expert and I honestly don't have a side in the nationalized healthcare debate (I am waiting till I know more before making a stand) and while I see the merit in your arguments it just seems to me that the system in Canada can be considered broken as well, just in vastly different ways. The more I read about it the more I am convinced that there is no right answer. Like so many controversial issues if there were a silver bullet we would have found it by now.

jst3p: I am no expert and I honestly don't have a side in the nationalized healthcare debate (I am waiting till I know more before making a stand) and while I see the merit in your arguments it just seems to me that the system in Canada can be considered broken as well, just in vastly different ways. The more I read about it the more I am convinced that there is no right answer. Like so many controversial issues if there were a silver bullet we would have found it by now.

But someone has to find it first, don't they? Often times the US is the leader in new technology or methods of government. Maybe this time Canada/UK has found it first, and the US must play catch up this time? :)

Kidding aside, I'm sure both systems have room for improvement. And you're likely right, until we achieve some sort of ideal world where everything is free and beer flows like water from the faucet, there probably won't be a silver bullet.

That said, I've experienced the Canadian health care system first hand (more than once) and I'm pretty happy with it. And money didn't play a part in it at all. Now. How many things can you say that about? :)

onebadgungan: Tommy Moo: onebadgungan: Either you're a troll or an ignorant farktard.

God you are a lazy fark. I at least presented a case. You're the troll. You can't just walk by and snipe someone. Make an argument, dumbass.

OK.

I was in the military. Yes, much of what they do there is make-work. But it is to keep combat-ready.

They don't get paid that much until much later in their careers. The medical care is not too good if you have anything worse than a hangnail, and the benefits barely pay for a decent college education. You have to buy your own uniforms and work clothes, like everywhere else. It's not welfare, it's a job, a low-paying one, and until garbage collectors are killed at a rate equaling soldiers it's a much more dangerous job than almost anything, barring fireman and cops.

So, as I said before, you are either a troll or an ignorant ass.


And you're either a liar, or ... a liar.

Check your LES sometime, champ. At the time I retired, we were paid over $900 a year in uniform allowance.

At the time I retired as an E-8 (over 24), I made in excess of $72,000 a year, of which over $30,000 was tax-free (BAS, BAH, Etc.) Get sent to the desert and it's all tax free, even if you're in Qatar or Kuwait, where the most dangerous thing that's likely to happen is missing a stroke in your bunk.

If by "Barely paid for a decent college education" you mean they pay for 100% of your tuition while on active duty, then I guess you're right. Once you seperate, the Post 9/11 GI Bill pays 100% of your tuition, plus $1000 a year for books, plus a $1200/month housing allowance. Yeah, our education benefits suck.

Don't get me wrong. I support veteran's rights, and think the VA is doing a disservice to many with combat-related issues. But to see some jackass outright lie about the state of affairs in the military does no one any good.

I'm sure you're just a troll, and I bit the hook. If you really are, or were in uniform, please go fark yourself. Being a goddamn liar reflects poorly on yourself, and your service.

japlemon: Move to Canada. I pay $5 in parking and fork over half my paycheck for a trip to the emergency room.

The per-capita healthcare spending by the Canadian government is less than the per-capita healthcare spending of the US government (source). This counts federal, state/provincial, and local levels.

And Canada manages to cover 70% of total healthcare expenses with that money, while the US covers 45%.

If you don't have regular health insurance, and your health problems are not related to war injuries, I have no problem with the gov't billing your estate upon your death. In this case, the injury was a welding accident, I assume caused by a lack of proper safety precautions by the vet in question, so my sympathy meter is reading neutral. It's not like his legs got blown off by an IED or something.

j0ndas: If you don't have regular health insurance, and your health problems are not related to war injuries, I have no problem with the gov't billing your estate upon your death. In this case, the injury was a welding accident, I assume caused by a lack of proper safety precautions by the vet in question, so my sympathy meter is reading neutral. It's not like his legs got blown off by an IED or something.

Yeah. This is the kind of depraved indifference to human life that makes me want to puke.