OgreMagi: Yes, I tend to piss off the GLBT people around here.

Willful ignorance on Fark tends to piss off more than just the GLBT types.

hetheeme:

Well, to be honest, I think every male is a Lesbian trapped in a man's body.

beoswulf:
That's outrageous, next someone will say a person born in the 20th century can't demand to legally be addressed as a knight of King Arther's round table.

Dude, on my license it reads: Sir Skippy of Sinistra, Duke of Moravia, Knight of the Round Table

/DMV gave me a real hard time about switching to 4 point text

I've taking enough social sciences/psychology/anthropology/biology to comment: Yeah, chick is still a dude. It really is black and white like that. She's altered her body to appear female to appease her inner demons, but genetically, still a dude. I don't have a thing against someone who does this, but they are simply deceiving themselves into thinking they've changed themselves on anything but a superficial level. That is what needs to be treated by psychology. They need to come to terms with the fact that even though the penis or vagina is changed, they really are no different than they were before.

/read As Nature Made Him as one farker suggested, I would recommend it. It is overwhelmingly in favor of a genetic basis for gender not a "I really feel like a woman" bs emotional attachment to gender.

"Having been one of the guys - or at least doing a good job of pretending I was - I have seen it from both sides.

I'll bet 'she' still does.

Good for her, but I wonder if the award is really appropriate. Apparently she had a good bit of her business success before transitioning -- indeed, that's how she paid for the surgery. To whatever degree a bias in favor of males exists (something the award by it's nature is highlighting by limiting it to female recipients), she likely benefitted from such bias before becoming female.

So I don't know.

/cute though
//would hit her and have her babies
///what?

They will often make the presumption that I don't know my maths or technology.

Apparently not too keen on english either

bhcompy: Apparently not too keen on english either

She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

bhcompy: FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

Here you go, idiot. On an American dictionary site, no less.. (new window)

bhcompy: Maths? Really?

Yes really

Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

It's standard in both British English and Australian English, as well as being widely used by English speakers from the Indian subcontinent. Perhaps you're so attuned to hearing 'math' that you've not perceived the difference, but you appear to be on very shaky ground when assessing others' educational achievements.

WAIT!

wtf you guys?

If its okay to be born a man and have your penis made into something vagina-like...

Then why is it NOT okay to say that this person is a man who had his penis turned into something vagina-like?

Is there something wrong with that?

Because its kind of farked up that most of the people here who feel that there's nothing wrong with this...

seem to feel that there's a lot wrong with saying this.

Some people will call this person a man some will call him (or her) a woman.

Is it really so IMPORTANT when the reality is what it is and when you say that gender is not so easily definable anyways??

If the "reality" of the gender situation is so hard to clarify ANYWAYS...

Then WHY does it matter at all whether or not this person is called a MAN or WOMAN?

Seriously.

What is there to be ashamed of?

Think about it and stop wining.

There's nothing wrong with this man living as a woman... and there's nothing wrong with this woman having been born a man right??

So get over it and stop acting like this some kind of crime against the sexually confused.

OR is there something WRONG with sexual confusion? Because the irony is strong in this thread.

Sir_Dude: So its harder to change genders than get a firearm? Gasp.

And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

srsly? srsly? WHO came up with this analogy? It's clearly designed to compare two things that are not at all comparable and appeal to people on a highly emotional level.

That is COMPLETELY DISHONEST.

No respect.

How does gun ownership have even ONE thing in common with gender reassignment?

This entire analogy is based around the flawed rationale that if one owns a gun one is going to use it to kill people.

FAIL.

Shagbert: bhcompy: FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

Here you go, idiot. On an American dictionary site, no less.. (new window)

I WAS TOLD THERE'D BE NO MATHS!

Murkanen: OgreMagi: Yes, I tend to piss off the GLBT people around here.

Willful ignorance on Fark tends to piss off more than just the GLBT types.

It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off. I don't give a crap what people do in their bedroom. I voted against prop 8. However, a sex change operation is only changing the superficial packaging, not the underlying reality.

It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off.

Yes, I'm sure that is the problem.

Would I have guessed that she used to be a man? No. Do I think she's attractive? Well, for England. *Shrug*

Technically still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalance.

Tainted1: TechnicallyChromosomally still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalancelegally a woman.

FTFY.

You people can label this person all you want ... but if you didn't know any differently, it wouldn't matter--and the law lets her live as a woman.

Tainted1: Technically still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalance.

In "problems of the human condition" that ranks a lot lower than depressed and suicidal. Sorry that an individual's happiness offends you.

Repo Man: beoswulf: That sums up the GID cult, it entitles the bearer to the same sense of smugness of people that drive hybrid Hummers. If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.

Since there is no way (at this time) to change the structure of the brain to match the body it is in, the only medical treatment available is to alter the body to match the brain. Men and women's brains are different; and nature makes mistakes.

Beoswulf was one of those mistakes.

Monkeypillow: how'd you get over it?

how says I've ever grown up? ;) I tried it for a while, didn't like it. Plus doing creative type work means never having to grown up.

OgreMagi: Ah, yes. The politically correct pseudo-science crowd.

No just the people who point out that things aren't necessarily as they seem and that there's more than one way to look at something.

rat_brain_flies_plane: And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

You totally missed his point.

OgreMagi: It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off.

There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Just remember it's far easier to dig a hole than to build a pole...

He's still a guy - just a divot where his junk used to be.

Male Humans are born with male genitalia. If you're born with a shlong, I'm calling you sir.

Shagbert: bhcompy: FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

Here you go, idiot. On an American dictionary site, no less.. (new window)

Says it's British. Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline to be challenged and to learn.

The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

:D

As an engineer i appreciate it, but you're giving some of my peers far to much credit.... for example: I drunk what is allegedly a civil engineer... and that obtuse ignorant farker was having issues with the 'set of the empty set,' many basic rules of algebra, and abb3w's (p or q) inquisition... and still to this day will claim he has 4 semesters of calculus under his belt which if you've had one of these conversations with him you'd realize he actually has grasped little of what passed in one ear and out the other.

As far as goldeneye belittling people with PhD's while he cranks out his masters in farking finance (lol) ... well as W.C. Fields would say "you just can't smarten up a chump."

/any bets on whether or not he has a 'GED in Law' too?

FootInMouthDisease: 'set of the empty set,

A group of people posting at Free Republic? No? Damn it. Um give me a minute.... ;)

well as W.C. Fields would say "you just can't smarten up a chump."

hehe I was thinking of all the math heads I've read about in finance and all that, none of them studied finance. One of them at least created a way to do better at black jack before he got into stock picking.

WhyteRaven74: rat_brain_flies_plane: And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

You totally missed his point.

What that before someone takes their penis and pays a doctor to flip it inside out, they might want to be sure that it isn't something they're going to regret for the rest of thier life, introducing additional turmoil, and physical and/or mental damage?


I suppose this is totally like gun control.

rat_brain_flies_plane: I suppose this is totally like gun control.

He was using some hyperbole there. If you read the rest of his post, you'd see he knows of what he speaks.

OgreMagi: I don't care what physical changes have been made, the question of being a man or woman is defined by the chromosomes. That can not be changed, so he is still a man.

Psst. That stuff they taught you in middle school about XX = female and XY = male? It was simplified for middle-schoolers.

Yes, I tend to piss off entertain the GLBT people around here.

FTFY, I think.

WhyteRaven74: Monkeypillow: how'd you get over it?

how says I've ever grown up? ;) I tried it for a while, didn't like it. Plus doing creative type work means never having to grown up.

OgreMagi: Ah, yes. The politically correct pseudo-science crowd.

No just the people who point out that things aren't necessarily as they seem and that there's more than one way to look at something.

rat_brain_flies_plane: And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

You totally missed his point.

OgreMagi: It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off.

There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Thank you, WR. Just, thank you. There are other voices of reason in this thread but yours is an outstanding one. You're a person who I'd genuinely love to have a conversation with at some point.

escapedlabmonkey: Male Humans are born with male genitalia. If you're born with a shlong, I'm calling you sir.

How large a clitoris does one need in order to earn that honorific? Alternatively, what degree of hypospadias (new window, NSFW image) or other malformation leads you to pronounce "that's no 'shlong'"?

Basing the determination solely on infant anatomical features is perhaps even sillier than basing it solely on a simple-minded glance at the chromosomes. I guess you'd put all the babies with ambiguous genitalia out on a rock or something.

WhyteRaven74: rat_brain_flies_plane: I suppose this is totally like gun control.

He was using some hyperbole there. If you read the rest of his post, you'd see he knows of what he speaks.

My bad. I think you're right.

jfarkinB: Basing the determination solely on infant anatomical features is perhaps even sillier than basing it solely on a simple-minded glance at the chromosomes. I guess you'd put all the babies with ambiguous genitalia out on a rock or something.

Well what are we supposed to base it on then...

... and why does it even matter?

Whether they call a person a man or woman who farking cares? After all gender is so difficult to define eh?

Honestly, if you were born with a dick and had it turned into a vajayjay and you felt that there was nothing wrong with that, then why would you care if someone called you a man? I can see the problem if someone is using it to mock you or shiat talk you... but seriously...

What's there to be ashamed of?

(and wait a minute... if gender is SO difficult to define... then shouldn't we wait until people are like 25 to determine whether or not they weren't destined to become men or women?)

You used to be a man and some people are still going to say you're a man while others are going to call you a woman.

Not everyone's going to be on the same page about it. Oh well. As long as it isn't abusive why get your panties in a knot?

gadian: I've taking enough social sciences/psychology/anthropology/biology to comment: Yeah, chick is still a dude. It really is black and white like that. She's altered her body to appear female to appease her inner demons, but genetically, still a dude. I don't have a thing against someone who does this, but they are simply deceiving themselves into thinking they've changed themselves on anything but a superficial level. That is what needs to be treated by psychology. They need to come to terms with the fact that even though the penis or vagina is changed, they really are no different than they were before.

/read As Nature Made Him as one farker suggested, I would recommend it. It is overwhelmingly in favor of a genetic basis for gender not a "I really feel like a woman" bs emotional attachment to gender.

QFT.

jfarkinB: escapedlabmonkey: Male Humans are born with male genitalia. If you're born with a shlong, I'm calling you sir.

How large a clitoris does one need in order to earn that honorific? Alternatively, what degree of hypospadias (new window, NSFW image) or other malformation leads you to pronounce "that's no 'shlong'"?

Basing the determination solely on infant anatomical features is perhaps even sillier than basing it solely on a simple-minded glance at the chromosomes. I guess you'd put all the babies with ambiguous genitalia out on a rock or something.

X or Y chromosome? Thank you.

Good butt-sniffing lord, do these threads always turn into such a trainwreck?

I find it utterly astounding that "hrr, hrr, your social gender must be determined by a genetic test" attracts so vocal a following...

Leishu: You're a person who I'd genuinely love to have a conversation with at some point.

I'd like that as well :)

rat_brain_flies_plane: I think you're right

yeah he talks about his experience with therapy on the subject at hand, definitely not off the wall, just a bit of hyperbole to start.

Minsky: do these threads always turn into such a trainwreck?

Given that this thread wasn't put on the mainpage it's not as much of a trainwreck as other threads on the subject have been.

WhyteRaven74: Minsky: do these threads always turn into such a trainwreck?

Given that this thread wasn't put on the mainpage it's not as much of a trainwreck as other threads on the subject have been.

Wow. Then I either admire your dedication in surviving them, or am a little concerned about the masochistic streak.

// Off to solace myself with a saner cross-section of humanity.

Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

bhcompy: I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

A lot of people won't hire retards, so you're out of luck.

Seriously, actually travel abroad some before harshing on other English dialects and making an ass out of yourself in the process.

EyeForgot: Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

As farked up as this seems, its probably the best thing to do. I am proponent of eugenics so getting rid of genetically screwed up people is desirable. It is just too bad that most people see this as cruel and nazi-like.

WhyteRaven74:

Among Native American groups, various Asian groups and some African groups sex and/or gender aren't necessarily binary.

Add Polynesia and the Pacific Isles to that list

bhcompy: They will often make the presumption that I don't know my maths or technology.

Apparently not too keen on english either

bhcompy: Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

bhcompy: Says it's British. Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

What a stupid woman! Why don't she speak Amuricun? Everybody knows Amuricun English is the only proper English. I hate people who leave "the" out when they say "university" or "hospital" too. Ignorant farks.

100 Watt Walrus: bhcompy: They will often make the presumption that I don't know my maths or technology.

Apparently not too keen on english either

bhcompy: Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

bhcompy: Says it's British. Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

What a stupid woman! Why don't she speak Amuricun? Everybody knows Amuricun English is the only proper English. I hate people who leave "the" out when they say "university" or "hospital" too. Ignorant farks.

Tonto went to hospital.

WhyteRaven74: There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Sociologists and psychologists? Get back to me when you find a real scientists.

irrational: EyeForgot: Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

As farked up as this seems, its probably the best thing to do. I am proponent of eugenics so getting rid of genetically screwed up people is desirable. It is just too bad that most people see this as cruel and nazi-like.

Uhm, intersexuality is not genetic. X, XXX, XXY, and XYY people are the only genetic gender abnormalities, and XXX and XYY have the same rates of ambiguous genitalia as XX and XY, and X and XXY are usually infertile anyway. So you don't actually have to worry about intersexuals passing on their intersexuality, their kids would be normal and not intersexual.

/I do agree that eugenics is okay, but prefer abortion as a method to infanticide
//but doing what you suggest would not affect the genetic quality of the human race at all, so it seems pointless

OgreMagi: WhyteRaven74: There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Sociologists and psychologists? Get back to me when you find a real scientists.

Also neurologists and biologists studying developmental growth, but hey.

There's a weird divide in transsexualism. There's some who want to be the other gender because they are sick, and confused, and believe every gender stereotype in the book, and they think their life would be better if they were the other gender; they're delusional, and need to be treated with psychotherapy to help them understand what gender really means and more so, that being another gender won't make their life better, they'll still be the same person and their brain won't magically change. These people are usually also attention whores, self-victimizers, and make a lot of bad life decisions unrelated to transsexuality. Also, they tend to be the ones running to the media all the time, but I don't know about this woman.

Then there are the people who aren't making a big deal out of things, but they've just never felt right, they've always felt like their body is wrong and they are the other gender, but yet they understand that being the other gender won't make their life better or change their personality, they don't try to fit themselves into the stereotypical mold of the gender they want to be, and honestly, they go, get their sex change, then go right back to living their life with little fuss, except they don't need as much therapy and they are happier and more successful. They don't expect special treatment because they're transsexual (though they DO want to be treated like the gender they believe themselves to be), and really, the sex change DOES solve their problems. A lot of people born with ambiguous genitalia wind up like this later in life.

That's the thing-- category A "transsexuals" don't have any improvement in their lives once they get surgery. Their life sucks because they're crazy, and they make it suck, and they need therapy. And therapy will work on them, and can make them no longer "transsexual."

But category B transsexuals, no matter how much they try or how much therapy they get, will never stop being transsexual. Maybe someday we'll have a brain surgery or a pill that will cure it but honestly, they won't change no matter how much therapy they get, because it's something separate from run-of-the-mill delusions-- it's pretty clearly connected to hormones in the womb or a genetic aberration or something. So they can be unhappy all their life, or they can get an operation that makes them able to go on and live a perfectly normal, happy life-- and they do, afterwards.

The thing is, giving a category A "transsexual" a sex-change is borderline malpractice, so obviously there needs to be a serious psychiatric vetting process for people who come in with transsexuality. Worst of all, category A seems to be a lot more common these days, so doctors are constantly faced with pseudotranssexuals and thus are far too skeptical of the genuine ones, often subjecting them to years of very harsh and useless therapy-- and the later the transition, the more challenging it is for them to pass effectively afterwards.

I hope the DSM-V doesn't take out transsexuality. A gender reassignment surgeon is not qualified to tell the difference between a pseudotranssexual and a true transsexual, and honestly, such a huge change should require a supportive therapist regardless. It's not like being gay, you need medical treatment anyway and it's too big of a step to do without psychiatric involvement.

/chromosomes mean nothing
//a person with XY chromosomes can have a uterus if the hormones were right at the right times, though she's usually genetically infertile-- should they have to go through a sex-change operation to make them look male just because they have a Y chromosome?