He may no longer be a man, but isn't a woman either.

I have a question because I am genuinely curious and know absolutely nothing about this subject except that genes, hormones and environment all combine to generate some outcome.

Are most people who are transgendered (transsexual?) gay or straight or what? I mean, this person had a sex change. Are they more likely to like dudes or chicks now, and would they be considered hetero, gay or a lesbian?

I'm (a) too lazy and (b) too busy to look this up right now.

/Back to work
//Why yes, I am lame, thanks for asking.

Just because you chop off a guy's dick doesn't make him a woman. The surgery doesn't do anything to make a woman, only remove the man. That is just an IT.

I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

Sympathizes

Monkeypillow: a lot of my interests happen to pay very well.

this is always a nice plus

jenlen: nice gams, indeed.

thanks :)

I picture it the same as some abolitionist trying to convince a plantation owner in South Carolina in 1860 that those black folks are indeed human beings and have rights, too.

At times it is like that. And really, if I'm not going to poke holes in people's arguments, what on Earth at my doing on Fark? ;)

DHMOlogist: Are most people who are transgendered (transsexual?) gay or straight or what?

It's like anyone else. Some are gay, some are straight and some are bi. Also some change a bit when they start taking hormones. But then again, they go through puberty all over again, so not surprising really. But really there's no overall leaning towards any particular sexuality among the transgendered. Which does mean that, yes, you can have a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Thisbymaster: Just because you chop off a guy's dick doesn't make him a woman. The surgery doesn't do anything to make a woman, only remove the man. That is just an IT.

Michael Jackson's own mutilation would be more authentic if he requested his race changed on official documentation.

Thankfully the gay community is becoming resentful of the "GBLT" tag because one of those is not like the others. So called transsexuals hang on the coattails of homosexual movement and drag it down. I'd be bitter too if the ignorantly proud to be mentally ill made a mockery out of my struggle for equal rights.

jenlen: WhyteRaven... nice gams, indeed.

Also, I laud you for trying to educate the neanderthals, but I fear it is a lost cause..

That sums up the GID cult, it entitles the bearer to the same sense of smugness of people that drive hybrid Hummers. If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.

kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

And what of individuals who were born with CAIS, or Klineflter's, or intersex? Do you just not speak to them, and treat them as though they do not exist?

The most important sex organ is the one between your ears.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: She looks like a sort-of-masculine woman. I wouldn't have guessed she was born a dude, but I wouldn't exactly call her "hot."


I agree. She's not hot, but I'd say she's determinately not the last option at closing time.

beoswulf: That sums up the GID cult, it entitles the bearer to the same sense of smugness of people that drive hybrid Hummers. If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.




Since there is no way (at this time) to change the structure of the brain to match the body it is in, the only medical treatment available is to alter the body to match the brain. Men and women's brains are different; and nature makes mistakes.

Repo Man: kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

And what of individuals who were born with CAIS, or Klineflter's, or intersex? Do you just not speak to them, and treat them as though they do not exist?

Stop trying to confuse the issue, the intersex having to choose between a sex is not even close to expecting everyone to pretend a biological male become a woman. Not to mention those showing symptoms of those legitimate conditions are statistically insignificant.

The vast majority of so called transsexuals have GID, demanding someone recognize your sex "change" is equivalent to a schizophrenic demanding other people listen to the voices in his head.


The most important sex organ is the one between your ears.

And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

Good, then don't ask my weight either, I was born about 8 pounds.
/Or how long it is either. I was hung like a soybean according to the pictures
//So I guess since I was born with a baby penis, I still have a baby penis now?

beoswulf: Thankfully the gay community is becoming resentful of the "GBLT" tag because one of those is not like the others.

bwahahahahhaha so that's why the Chicago Pride parade last weekend had a transgendered grand marshal? Really?

If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.

That's what we do. I can only imagine what you think of cultures that aren't binary when it comes to sex and gender.

WhyteRaven74:
beoswulf: Thankfully the gay community is becoming resentful of the "GBLT" tag because one of those is not like the others.

bwahahahahhaha so that's why the Chicago Pride parade last weekend had a transgendered grand marshal? Really?

beoswulf is just trolling, and in poor taste at that. I troll sometimes myself, but I can't bring myself to spew vitriol at an oppressed, misunderstood minority just for lulz. That's what separates us from the /b/easts I guess.

So screw the haters, and god speed, tranny lady!

beoswulf: This dude suffers from a DSM listed Gender Identity Disorder, if he was treated as a child he could have benefited greatly, there's a 90%+ cure rate, the vast majority of little boys that want to mangle their genitals grow up to be healthy gay adult male and safe from the risks of unnecessary surgery and hormones at inappropriate dosages. ( for more info google the Village Voice article See Tom be Jane)

Unfortunately there is a cult-like community of enablers that are like very much like Scientologists in more ways their one; particularly in their vicious character assassinations of anybody that points the double standard for mentally ill men claiming to be women vs the mentally ill claiming to be historical figures.

that's the biggest pile of warrgarbl I've heard in a while. Homosexuals don't have gender identity issues. They are fine with who they are, it's the same-sex attraction thing that farks with their minds until they come to grips with it.

But you are partly correct. GID is probably what was taking place. This person was extremely uncomfortable in the role that her genes assigned her. She was able to correct that with surgery. Oh, and you do realize that the standard protocol prior to SRS is intensive counseling, right? At least a year as I understand it. You know, to make sure that this is really the road you want to travel down? 90% success rate my arse.

beoswulf: pretend a biological male become a woman.

There are some Native American tribes who'd pat you on the head and tell you go spend some money at the casino with that simplistic way of seeing things.

legitimate conditions are statistically insignifican

no individual is statistically insignificant. Statistics are well and good for population studies, but when it comes to how we treat people, frequency plays no part.

demanding someone recognize your sex "change" is equivalent to a schizophrenic demanding other people listen to the voices in his head.

A great many schizophrenics desperately wish other people could hear the voices in their head. For by hearing them others could understand the torment that is schizophrenia and just how overwhelming it is. Of course some schizophrenics don't hear any voices at all, their hallucinations are not of the auditory variety. In that case, they wish other people could experience them too.

And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

what behavioral therapy would cause someone to feel alright in their body their in and develop the behavioral particulars that go along with that body that they have never developed?

WhyteRaven74: Nice job assuming human development is limited to the binary categorical constructs of western logic.

Not to be trolling, but binary gender identity is just a western concept? Historically, I think it's a pretty universal standard that people classify genders are "penis" and "vagina" -- exceptions can probably be found anywhere, but I don't think there has been a major society that has not had societal gender definitions and roles based on external genitalia.

This is relevant to "her" interests:



/slightly hot

beoswulf: And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

The AMA and the APA beg to differ.

No Such Agency: beoswulf is just trolling, and in poor taste at that

Could be, though given some of what I've seen on the internet and the consistency, such as it is, of the argument? Not necessarily.

I've seen your trolls, they're nice get people to react trolls. I think I've even bit on one or two myself ;)

So screw the haters, and god speed, tranny lady!

thanks :)

kenposan: At least a year as I understand it

yep and at least in the states the guideline for getting surgery is two separate therapists have to sign off as saying you're fit for it and of sound mind.

beoswulf: Repo Man: kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

And what of individuals who were born with CAIS, or Klineflter's, or intersex? Do you just not speak to them, and treat them as though they do not exist?

Stop trying to confuse the issue, the intersex having to choose between a sex is not even close to expecting everyone to pretend a biological male become a woman. Not to mention those showing symptoms of those legitimate conditions are statistically insignificant.



And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.



Most intersexed individuals strongly identify as one sex or the other, without too much regard towards which they most look like physically. That's because the most important sex differences are physical structures in the brain.

Therapy cannot physically alter the portions of the brain that make us male or female.

The 7 Year Lurk: beoswulf: And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

The AMA and the APA beg to differ.

But he's in finance, and knows better than those pointy headed scientifical types.

Goldeneye007: spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

And yours is?

Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

Ah, a field that any idiot can buy a degree in?

Quantum Apostrophe: kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

Good, then don't ask my weight either, I was born about 8 pounds.
/Or how long it is either. I was hung like a soybean according to the pictures
//So I guess since I was born with a baby penis, I still have a baby penis now?

. .

WhyteRaven74:


I'm really not here to discuss this with you. After all the effort of mutilating your body your denial must run way too deep for a fark thread to overcome. It'd be devastating to acknowledge you could have simply been treated and cured of GID all along.

Maybe it would help if you admitted that few people recognized the symptoms of GID in children years ago. But even though you missed out on the easy road to medical treatment as a youth I'd imagine that spending half the amount of time in therapy as you do on these fark threads would have likely made a huge difference.

On the other hand years of being forced to humor the delusions of GID victims has created a massive backlash against the transsexual cult. When news broke of the woman hopped on male hormones pretending to be a man that got pregnant it was the moment mainstream people and particularly health professionals snapped out of your daydream and declared the emperor has no clothes.

Donnchadha: but binary gender identity is just a western concept?

Among Native American groups, various Asian groups and some African groups sex and/or gender aren't necessarily binary. There are some groups that assume some people have a sex or gender that is neither all male or all female. Some have gender on a spectrum. Some hold intersex to be something far more general than we do. To various groups sex and/or gender are not rigidly linked to biological reproductive organs or functions.

WhyteRaven74-

Wow- you're the Tatsuma of gender indentity threads. In a good way. Keep up the good fight.

beoswulf: I'm really not here to discuss this with you.

You're not here to discuss anything just spew forth whatever uninformed platitudes you have in an effort to try to cling to your own rather peculiar biases.

After all the effort of mutilating your body your denial must run way too deep for a fark thread to overcome

Me in denial? Not hardly. I could have never become what you think I should've become, I was not born to be that. Had I been born to be that, life would be a farkload simpler.

When news broke of the woman hopped on male hormones pretending to be a man that got pregnant it was the moment mainstream people and particularly health professionals snapped out of your daydream and declared the emperor has no clothes.

Why are you so threatened by people not fitting into neat little boxes? It's not just this issue, it's every issue I see you comment on. The second someone doesn't fit into a neat little box, you just go off. Between that and your utter lack of empathy, you obviously have very limited experience in dealing with or even actually listening to anyone who is substantially different from yourself, a psychologist could say a thing or two about you. Of course a simple humanist could as well. For someone lacking empathy is unfit to stand in judgment of another and indeed to lack empathy for others is to be deficient as a person.

redsquid: you're the Tatsuma of gender indentity threads.

*snort* that made me literally LOL. And thanks :) For me there's nothing worse than missing one of these threads, in part cause they are rare and in part cause there is always one or two people around who do actually care and do actually want to know more. For me, that is enough. The loons? It's the internet, they're as much a part of it as porn is.

WhyteRaven74:

yep and at least in the states the guideline for getting surgery is two separate therapists have to sign off as saying you're fit for it and of sound mind.

So its harder to change genders than get a firearm? Gasp.
My only comment is about the "I had a medical condition" quote. I don't want to start any negative vibes here but I went through the start of the process in the late 80's. My background was bad - schizophrenia (mom and grandmom in the house) alcoholic father and repeated molestations for over 7 years by family drinking buddies. I made the decision to not change but was considered a potential candidate at the time.
I feel I made the choice that was right for me, as I'm sure others who have been in the process, but it isn't something that can be treated with a pill and aftercare instructions. This is an extremely hard decision and it takes several years to make the choice, no one can do it for you.

/still has respect for others in the change, took me three years when I did it.

It's funny how in so many threads, I encounter so many people who are very "live and let live" ... but someone is born with a mind in one gender and the body in another sex, and suddenly it's not ok to live and let live? I'm sure it's not the same people, but it's a strange dichotomy on here.

It's not as though gender reassignment surgery is ever considered lightly, people.

Sir_Dude: /still has respect for others in the change, took me three years when I did it.

In my case I've always known, just a matter of getting to where I do something about it.

austerity101: ... but someone is born with a mind in one gender and the body in another sex, and suddenly it's not ok to live and let live?

They're called trolls, don't feed them.

austerity101: It's not as though gender reassignment surgery is ever considered lightly, people.

Well, it should be obvious that most people would not willingly submit themselves to social humiliation and potentially alienate their entire family without good reason.

That being said, I would caution anyone from lumping social criticism of transsexuals along side medical criticism of current therapy. For instance, right now it's impossible to determine the root cause for gender dismorphia and to even separate patients into categories of those who are experiencing "true" dismorphia and those who have have extreme cases of fetishized transvestism.

This is a valid ethical concern for medical practitioners due to the fact that gender reassignment surgery is nigh unreversable and there have been cases of patients who despite the rigorous mental screening have come out the other side of the process even more depressed and suicidal than before, some of them even taking their own lives.

In a perfect world everyone would be diagnosed accurately and treated appropriately, but we're not there yet, so while I understand the good intentions that goes into a vigorous defense of transgendered people, I hope that there will still be some room for valid debate upon appropriate treatment techniques.

I hope that there will still be some room for valid debate upon appropriate treatment techniques.

Not on FARK there isn't. There is only room for shouting down knuckle draggers who display their ignorance with pride. The valid debate will have to happen in the journals of medical science, and the publications and conferences of psychiatrists, and others who specialize in the relevant fields.

scruffy1: Cute chick.



/hot

TwistedFark: This is a valid ethical concern for medical practitioners due to the fact that gender reassignment surgery is nigh unreversable and there have been cases of patients who despite the rigorous mental screening have come out the other side of the process even more depressed and suicidal than before, some of them even taking their own lives.

Someone could suffer from GID and more common variety clinical depression, I guess.

I imagine there have been more than a few depressives who have latched onto the idea of a sex change as the ultimate "cure" for their depression. Which is why the screening is in place. I have a friend who is bipolar and agoraphobic, and thought I doubt he'd ever consider a sex change, the desperation for some way out is intense at times.

WhyteRaven74: The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

My majors :)

/Start Physics PhD program in the fall
//Scared to death

It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline ((finance)) to be challenged and to learn.

This is possibly the wrongest statement I have ever read on fark. Finance? Best and brightest? Puhleaze.

I'm confused. At first, I thought she was a hermaphrodite who had parts of both and then cut of some to be one rather than the other but then I got confused. But I think I'm not confused anymore.

Bacontastesgood: It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline ((finance)) to be challenged and to learn.

This is possibly the wrongest statement I have ever read on fark. Finance? Best and brightest? Puhleaze.

It's true! I mean, look at the fantastic state of our economy right now, and how all the hard work, dedication, hypotheses and predictions from the best and brightest are enriching our lives every day! Let's not forget that the best and brightest are to thank for Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, GM, and quite a few banks (who's primary focus is finance even) for folding and/or being able to fark over Americans for billions of dollars that we will never see again.

/best and brightest my ass
//degree in finance = aiming to steal money from people who actually work for it

RemyDuron: /Start Physics PhD program in the fall

awesome!

/made my way through Roger Penrose's Road to Reality, which is basically a single volume undergraduate physics crash course

RoxtarRyan: /best and brightest my ass

Funny how people will totally neglect any moral element in calling someone the best

WhyteRaven74: ...to lack empathy for others is to be deficient as a person.

Fark quote of the year.

+1, would recommend

WhyteRaven74: Donnchadha: but binary gender identity is just a western concept?

Among Native American groups, various Asian groups and some African groups sex and/or gender aren't necessarily binary. There are some groups that assume some people have a sex or gender that is neither all male or all female. Some have gender on a spectrum. Some hold intersex to be something far more general than we do. To various groups sex and/or gender are not rigidly linked to biological reproductive organs or functions.

In the West, we call those third-sex dudes, "catchers".

Generally speaking, in the cultures being discussed, you're not considered homosexual if you're only pitching and it's only part time.

/would hit the blond nerd

I don't care what physical changes have been made, the question of being a man or woman is defined by the chromosomes. That can not be changed, so he is still a man.

Yes, I tend to piss off the GLBT people around here.

WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

What you want to believe doesn't overturn what's well accepted in psychological, anthropological and sociological circles.

Ah, yes. The politically correct pseudo-science crowd.

OgreMagi: the question of being a man or woman is defined by the chromosomes

Only if you want to take a really simplistic view of it. Given that it's one gene on the Y chromosome that triggers male differentiation, if it doesn't work, you get an XY female.

Ok so I'm on mobile so I can't quote anyone, but this is for all those discussing if your sex and gender are the same thing etc etc.

It is ironic that Texas's refusal to recognise sex change opperations as real change of legal gender lead them to be the first state to grant a same sex marriage. A lesbian and a man who had a sex change opperation to become a lesbian (which I totally don't understnd butr don't need to as neither of those two people are me).

The state refused to recognise the mans switch to female so they grantted the marriage between two women.

No matter what you think about the issue of gender v sex,or same sex marriage, the irony here is beautiful.


/Blackberry post at 4am so forgive spelling.

Executive transsexual?

WhyteRaven74: /made my way through Roger Penrose's Road to Reality, which is basically a single volume undergraduate physics crash course

Neat. So far, I've gone through AP physics B. Start university in a couple of months -- praying that in addion to doing well, I figure out what it is I'm supposed to be. Growing up sucks -- how'd you get over it?