Cute chick.

Cool story, bro!

Wow, that's a really amazing transgendervestite I don't know what word to use here. Where's WR when you need her?

That's EXTREME!

blonde

There is no way I would know that at one time she was a man.

Bek: Where's WR when you need her?

you called? ;)

mjoven1975: There is no way I would know that at one time she was a man.

Which is actually pretty common. Indeed if you think about it, it's kind of the whole point in a way.

Yeah, definitely would have fooled me. Good for her, and good on the magazine for not tossing her from the list after finding out.

GAT_00: good on the magazine for not tossing her from the list after finding ou

It's an English magazine, they don't have to worry about a bunch of fundy types screaming on FoxNews for a week ;)

WhyteRaven74: mjoven1975: There is no way I would know that at one time she was a man.

Which is actually pretty common. Indeed if you think about it, it's kind of the whole point in a way.

It can go both ways though. There was a transsexual who ran for mayor in my hometown. "She" was about 6 foot 5 and was built like a linebacker.

mjoven1975: There was a transsexual who ran for mayor in my hometown

Yeah results can vary. Though some of that can be remedied if a person chooses to remedy it.

"I thought you said you were born in Iran."

Well. That obviously explains her success.

I am so confused!

that's a man, baby!

/at least by our genetic standards. Gender-wise...its up to the person.
//i wouldn't hit it.

Matthew Gwyther is full of shiat. 'She' has been on TV a number of times, has her own website on sexual identity rights, etc. A cynical person (hi) might think that 'her' position on the list, particularly as 'her' company is a minnow, was nothing more than a PR move - a successful one, it seems.

Heh, haemaker wins it!

Also, this is the Internet and "she" runs an Internet company. There are no girls on the Internet, jut G.I.R.L.s

TRAP THREAD!

yeh.. would.

She...uh

She looks like the majority of any volleyball players I've ever known. She's definitely not bad looking at all.

I'd hit it (her)...

/but then I'm on Fark, so there is that

If you didn;t tell me she was a man, I would never have known, until of course she becomes untucked

She looks like a sort-of-masculine woman. I wouldn't have guessed she was born a dude, but I wouldn't exactly call her "hot."

On second thought, she would be hot for a serious volleyball girl.
And less masculine.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: She looks like a sort-of-masculine woman. I wouldn't have guessed she was born a dude, but I wouldn't exactly call her "hot."

She's hot for a successful IT business woman. But she looks way better in make up.

/I'd hit it

This guy understands




/no obscure, Just Shoot Me reference

Let's see her titties.

I bet she'd let you stick it in her pooper.

haemaker: "I thought you said you were born in Iran."

Came here for this.

/it takes all sorts to make a world

TRAPS!

Just me?

haemaker: "I thought you said you were born in Iran."

Hah, I miss the IT Crowd. Damn everyone else for having such short TV series. I mean six episodes and then wait till 2010?! BS!

Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

I found this more amusing:

RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

Her sex is male, her gender isn't.

RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

Made it to over thirty posts before a pinhead chimed in. That might be a FARK record for these sort of threads. Worst episode of South Park ever.

timefishblue: RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

Her sex is male, her gender isn't.

Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

timefishblue: RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

Her sex is male, her gender isn't.

By what your saying, 100 years ago any girl that wanted to play sports or wear pants would be "transgendered"

In other news, being born with a penis isn't immunity from becoming an attention whore.

Meh, basically a white Serena Williams.

Repo Man: That might be a FARK record for these sort of threads

I've seen a thread go over 50 posts on this topic before the pinheads came around.

/also ever notice most tranny threads show up on Saturdays?

Repo Man: RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

Made it to over thirty posts before a pinhead chimed in. That might be a FARK record for these sort of threads. Worst episode of South Park ever.

Great, here come the FARK ad hominem attack defense force.

RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

That's outrageous, next someone will say a person born in the 20th century can't demand to legally be addressed as a knight of King Arther's round table.

beoswulf: timefishblue: RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman.

Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

Her sex is male, her gender isn't.

By what your saying, 100 years ago any girl that wanted to play sports or wear pants would be "transgendered"

In other news, being born with a penis isn't immunity from becoming an attention whore.

No, I mean gender in the psychological sense. Having your penis flipped inside out and thinking that you're really a woman is nowhere near anything to do with pants or skirts.

Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

What you want to believe doesn't overturn what's well accepted in psychological, anthropological and sociological circles.

RidesAPaleHorse: Sorry, but taking hormones and turning your penis inside out does not make you a woman. Do you have a Y Chromosome? Then you're male.

All the genes on your chromosomes do is tell your gonads to develop one way or another. From there, everything developmentally comes down to hormones.

That's why you have intersexed people and people with gender identity issues. Hormones that affect the fetus can come from outside the womb. Or the genes that control the development of the gonads can malfunction, causing a hormone imbalance or hormone insensitivity. That's also why the whole XX/XY thing as an absolute test is kinda bogus, since it is not a guaranteed system.

In the end, who cares. The lady in the article was an adult, she made a choice, and she had the resources to have the job carried out successfully. Now she's making big money and is leading a successful life. More power to her.

So everyone so sure that XY must be male, XX must be female....

Just curious about your other views on evolution and on nature vs. nurture and other things.

For example, do you think being gay is a choice?
What about XXY? Can they be transgendered?

If an XY starts taking hormones at an early age, and for a long duration, what then, are they exclusively male too?

Are all characteristics we associate with male and female behaviors (not just genitals, but behaviors as well) exclusively on the XY gene, and is the Y copy of that gene always dominant?

Goldeneye007: Hmm, ask your parents if you're allowed to read this:
AIS (new window)

This dude suffers from a DSM listed Gender Identity Disorder, if he was treated as a child he could have benefited greatly, there's a 90%+ cure rate, the vast majority of little boys that want to mangle their genitals grow up to be healthy gay adult male and safe from the risks of unnecessary surgery and hormones at inappropriate dosages. ( for more info google the Village Voice article See Tom be Jane)

Unfortunately there is a cult-like community of enablers that are like very much like Scientologists in more ways their one; particularly in their vicious character assassinations of anybody that points the double standard for mentally ill men claiming to be women vs the mentally ill claiming to be historical figures.

beoswulf: the vast majority of little boys that want to mangle their genitals grow up to be healthy gay adult male

you're assuming these boys grow into men who have any sexual interest in men.

Well, beoswulf (and timefishblue and Goldeneye007), since you've obviously given this issue so much more time, attention, and deep consideration than anyone else, I suppose there's really nothing left to add to the thread.

/lucky enough to be born in the right sort of body
//curious enough to have looked into the issues in some depth anyhow

I would have hit it if I didn't know she was once a man....

Who am I kidding? A va-jay-jay is a va-jay-jay. I'd still hit it.

WhyteRaven74

I know you're fighting the good fight and all, but you can't convince these types of folks about anything. Fear's fear, after all.

I'm almost half-convinced that one or two basement dwellers make up the majority of the pure bile handles. No widespread series of circumstances/personality traits can equate to that much stupid.

So this just proves that a woman has to be a man to succeed in business. Way to reinforce stereotypes, toots.

jfarkinB: Well, beoswulf (and timefishblue and Goldeneye007), since you've obviously given this issue so much more time, attention, and deep consideration than anyone else, I suppose there's really nothing left to add to the thread.

/lucky enough to be born in the right sort of body
//curious enough to have looked into the issues in some depth anyhow

Was I wrong in saying her sex is male and her gender is female? How is her sex female now? Because she got to some approximation of it by having her dick flipped inside out? I thought "sex" was just the physical part that doesn't really matter.

zen_lawndarts: but you can't convince these types of folks about anything

I know that, I just like watching them fumble along as I point out their errors. This is Fark after all, watching people trip over themselves is half the fun of this place ;)

beoswulf: if he was treated as a child he could have benefited greatly, there's a 90%+ cure rate

Mainstream medical journal citation, please? I ask, because you've quoted the same statistic in several of these threads.

Also, please include the same "cure rate" for tweens that have entered puberty. This is an important stat since the rate drops significantly at this point.

Quantum Apostrophe: Goldeneye007: Hmm, ask your parents if you're allowed to read this:
AIS (new window)

It should change their mind, but it will likely only cause confusion, and further anger. "Mongo no like ambiguity in gender! Make Mongo's brain hurt!"

beoswulf:
Great, here come the FARK ad hominem attack defense force.

When something so stunningly ignorant is posted, there is really little else to do. Either you really are that arrogant and ignorant, or you are trolling. Either way you're worthless.

WhyteRaven74: zen_lawndarts: but you can't convince these types of folks about anything

I know that, I just like watching them fumble along as I point out their errors. This is Fark after all, watching people trip over themselves is half the fun of this place ;)

LOL. love it

\ great gams

Don't judge her. Do you have any idea what it's like being a fembot, living in a manbot's manputer's world?

Kate Craig-Wood

Heh.

It's astounding how this 'cult' is so motivated to promote the myth of transsexualism that's nothing more than a relic from the days when mental illness was a serious stigma.

Seems pretty clear from 100 Watt Walrus's 2 pics that one is early one and one is late. She even said in the article that she was beginning to become attractive. The difference between those two pics is pretty substantial, actually.

There's some wierdos that like to dress in womens' clothes but I have to say that if you're willing to take the step to have your penis removed then you're pretty damn serious and it's not just a "hobby". So I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and call her a she without any quotes around it.

In all of recorded history there have only been a very few people that have been able to live life from the perspective of both genders. It must be an interesting experience, to say the least. Maybe she should write a book not for transgenders, but for the rest of us so that we can better understand each other.

beoswulf: It's astounding how this 'cult' is so motivated to promote the myth of transsexualism that's nothing more than a relic from the days when mental illness was a serious stigma.

It's funny how some people still dogmatically insist that the brain doesn't have gender, in spite of the overwhelming evidence gathered in the past few decades. The blank slate hypothesis is the real relic here.

Zombalupagus: Seems pretty clear from 100 Watt Walrus's 2 pics that one is early one and one is late. She even said in the article that she was beginning to become attractive. The difference between those two pics is pretty substantial, actually.

Um, the second pic is of someone else. 100 Watt Walrus was comparing the two people.

What you're saying may be true, but those pics don't apply.

Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

Really, because you're so absolutely certain that it's as black and white as XX and XY are you? Go do some reading.

beoswulf: if he was treated as a child he could have benefited greatly, there's a 90%+ cure rate,

Citation needed. Are you John Money in disguise?

beoswulf: It's astounding how this 'cult' is so motivated to promote the myth of transsexualism that's nothing more than a relic from the days when mental illness was a serious stigma.

I'd invite you to read "As Nature Made Him" to see how wrong you are, but I suspect that you won't even try.

WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

What you want to believe doesn't overturn what's well accepted in psychological, anthropological and sociological circles.

Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: Zombalupagus: Seems pretty clear from 100 Watt Walrus's 2 pics that one is early one and one is late. She even said in the article that she was beginning to become attractive. The difference between those two pics is pretty substantial, actually.

Um, the second pic is of someone else. 100 Watt Walrus was comparing the two people.

What you're saying may be true, but those pics don't apply.

Geez, no one recognizes Starbuck (Katee Sackhoff)? She does look different with long hair, but c'mon. I lusted after Boomer much more, but she looks good in that shot for sure.

Goldeneye007: WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

What you want to believe doesn't overturn what's well accepted in psychological, anthropological and sociological circles.

Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

I'm guessing there are fellow southerners who would like for you to stop reinforcing negative stereotypes about the intolerance and ignorance of southerners.

Goldeneye007: WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

What you want to believe doesn't overturn what's well accepted in psychological, anthropological and sociological circles.

Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

Looks like the ad hominem arguments are coming from both sides now.

Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

And yours is?

spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

And yours is?

Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

Goldeneye007: spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

And yours is?

Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

Right, so when you have a doctoral degree--more specifically, one in a field that directly pertains to issues of gender, sex, and sexuality--then you can come back and argue against organizations such as the APA.

austerity101: Goldeneye007: spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

And yours is?

Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

Right, so when you have a doctoral degree--more specifically, one in a field that directly pertains to issues of gender, sex, and sexuality--then you can come back and argue against organizations such as the APA.


But that wouldn't be a real degree at all.

Goldeneye007: Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

And that makes you qualified to dismiss other disciplines does it? No offense dude, but it's people with your discipline that have continually screwed the world economy over and over again thus leaving us with a definite sense that every idiot has your degree.

I just watched an interesting documentary about this called "Trinidad". Did you know Trinidad, CO was the Transsexual capital of the world?

I think there are some people who have this procedure who need it. I also think there are some people, and this is borne out by the doc above, who get it because of psychological issues or societal pressures that could have been addressed and would have kept them from losing everything (wives, kids, jobs, etc) and feeling like this surgery was their only option to get their lives back.

This woman look like one of the former. Intelligent, centered, successful, and now a woman. She also looks very happy, which is important. Considering all the bone-density issues, muscular issues, and hormone issues she's going to encounter over the rest of her life, I certainly hope this was the right thing for her to do.

buk110

Silly troll, taking it from behind and removing one's junk are mutually exclusive.

I'm guessing the Bible says whatever it needs to in order to perpetuate your unfathomable hatred for everyone else. Any piece of literature that tells me that while I and everyone else are formed in the image of a perfect being I nonetheless have the moral responsibility to condemn them for not being more like me is of course the perfect argument ender. Any arbitrary view (all vegetable stands need firebombing,etc.) are equally defensible using such rubbish.

views, dammit. Shiner thread's got me a bit the worse for wear.

I've done my part WhyteRaven74, such as it was, and believe I'll turn in for the evening. Good luck.

Repo Man: Quantum Apostrophe: Goldeneye007: Hmm, ask your parents if you're allowed to read this:
AIS (new window)

It should change their mind, but it will likely only cause confusion, and further anger. "Mongo no like ambiguity in gender! Make Mongo's brain hurt!"

They'll get a kick out of fetal development. As if something so complex goes smoothly all the time.
Link (new window)
Link (new window)

Here's a good book. (new window)

On the hot side of "average English chick". Though that might be owing more to the decent teeth.

spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

And that makes you qualified to dismiss other disciplines does it? No offense dude, but it's people with your discipline that have continually screwed the world economy over and over again thus leaving us with a definite sense that every idiot has your degree.

It is true that we screwed things up the last time, but we will also be the ones to fix it. There's a reason that WE have the keys to the local, state, federal, and world economies. It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline to be challenged and to learn. The hardest thing I've ever seen on any anthro/psych/soc test was a couple of vague matching and multiple choice questions. I could probably sit down with a good book of Cliffsnotes for a couple of hours and be as well versed in the subject as one who went through four years of the subject.

Doesn't matter how screwed up "her" brain is, "she" is a he. Mental illness does not change that.

/I draw the line after homosexuals
//the rest are messed up and need therapy, execution, etc.

sbrister: \ great gams

thanks :)

Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

Getting a PhD in any of them takes far more work than most people will subject themselves to just for the sake of a degree. Even a PhD in psycho leading to a nice office job is a ton of work. At least you won't have to travel who knows where to do your research.

Repo Man: I'm guessing there are fellow southerners who would like for you to stop reinforcing negative stereotypes about the intolerance and ignorance of southerners.

I always found Shelby Foote to be a quick remedy for the idea southerners are all dumb yokels, his books on the Civil War are wonders if research and writing.

Goldeneye007: working on a master's degree in Finance

And you complain about other people's degrees? Pot, meet kettle, kettle, pot.

buk110: And it's a slap in the face of God. The Bible says we are on this earth to procreate ... there is no way that fag can ever produce a child.

Actually the Bible doesn't exactly say that. Though it does say the God creates nothing he loathes nor loathes anything in creation.

Lost Thought 00: Meh, basically a white, more feminine version of Serena Williams.

FTFY

zen_lawndarts: Good luck.

thanks

Quantum Apostrophe: As if something so complex goes smoothly all the time.

I love Fark. If it is known, someone here knows it.

irrational: Doesn't matter how screwed up "her" brain is, "she" is a he

Nice job assuming human development is limited to the binary categorical constructs of western logic.

Goldeneye007: It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline to be challenged and to learn.

The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

WhyteRaven74: The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

I love physics. Too bad there's not a whole lot of work out there that pay enough to justify the difficulty. I'll probably end up in EE, computer engineering, mechanical engineering, software development or similar.

/Still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up.

There are to genders, male and female. No crossovers, only mutants with serious mental issues. I suppose we shouldn't treat schizophrenics because they should be bound by western ideas of consciousness? You feel you were born wrong? Too bad. Get help.

beoswulf: This dude suffers from a DSM listed Gender Identity Disorder, if he was treated as a child he could have benefited greatly, there's a 90%+ cure rate, the vast majority of little boys that want to mangle their genitals grow up to be healthy gay adult male and safe from the risks of unnecessary surgery and hormones at inappropriate dosages. ( for more info google the Village Voice article See Tom be Jane)

Unfortunately there is a cult-like community of enablers that are like very much like Scientologists in more ways their one; particularly in their vicious character assassinations of anybody that points the double standard for mentally ill men claiming to be women vs the mentally ill claiming to be historical figures.

The DSM-V won't have Gender Identity Disorder listed in it, much like the DSM-IV doesn't have homosexuality as a disorder anymore.

WhyteRaven74:
Goldeneye007: It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline to be challenged and to learn.

The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

What do you think Finance is? It's about as applied as math can get.

irrational: There are to genders, male and female. No crossovers, only mutants with serious mental issues. I suppose we shouldn't treat schizophrenics because they should be bound by western ideas of consciousness? You feel you were born wrong? Too bad. Get help.

Get help? Isn't that what they're doing? As far as I know, people undergo extensive psycological screening before a doctor will endorse gender reassignment surgery. People just don't decode that they'd like to be one way or another willy nilly. I'm pretty sure they've always felt one way or another. If it makes 'em happy, where's the harm?

/Southerner
//Is typing from a phone

buk110: Wow he's really cute - I bet he puts out on a first date.

No matter what you say or how you try to spin it...That's a man. And it's a slap in the face of God. The Bible says we are on this earth to procreate ... there is no way that fag can ever produce a child.

And that's all he is...a fag that wanted to take it from behind so he got his junk removed....

Sickening...

Let's see... unicorns, giants, People screwing their daughters... Hmm... I don't see any trolls in your bullshiat book. Nice try.

WhyteRaven74: beoswulf: the vast majority of little boys that want to mangle their genitals grow up to be healthy gay adult male

you're assuming these boys grow into men who have any sexual interest in men.

He's also assuming that banging dudes is inherently better than having a vajayjay.

Monkeypillow: /Still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up.

grow up? Who'd ever do a silly thing like that? ;)

Bestbank Tiger: He's also assuming that banging dudes is inherently better than having a vajayjay.

Also another erroneous assumption he makes, yes :)

Goldeneye007: What do you think Finance is? It's about as applied as math can get.

I think some actuaries might take issue with that. Also given how many people with nothing but math backgrounds I've seen around finance, that is people with MS's or PhD's in math, hardly seems worthwhile to have a whole separate field of study.

WhyteRaven74: Monkeypillow: /Still doesn't know what he wants to be when he grows up.

grow up? Who'd ever do a silly thing like that? ;)

Me, to a certain extent. I don't much care for responsibility, but I really enjoy stuff -- expensive stuff. I figure my parents will cut me off at some point, so I should find a way to support my hobbies doing something I enjoy. Fortunately for me, a lot of my interests happen to pay very well.

WhyteRaven... nice gams, indeed.

Also, I laud you for trying to educate the neanderthals, but I fear it is a lost cause. I picture it the same as some abolitionist trying to convince a plantation owner in South Carolina in 1860 that those black folks are indeed human beings and have rights, too.

Goldeneye007: spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

And that makes you qualified to dismiss other disciplines does it? No offense dude, but it's people with your discipline that have continually screwed the world economy over and over again thus leaving us with a definite sense that every idiot has your degree.

It is true that we screwed things up the last time, but we will also be the ones to fix it. There's a reason that WE have the keys to the local, state, federal, and world economies. It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline to be challenged and to learn. The hardest thing I've ever seen on any anthro/psych/soc test was a couple of vague matching and multiple choice questions. I could probably sit down with a good book of Cliffsnotes for a couple of hours and be as well versed in the subject as one who went through four years of the subject.

You can't actually believe this. My ex-roommate is a math genius, and he is now working in algorithmic trading at Barclay's (formerly Lehman Bros.). Even he is willing to admit that these peeps are one of (the many) parties responsible for the meltdown (think about all the confusing derivatives designed by these Quants). He also harbors no illusions that this is really going to change or that he (or any of these finance whizzes) are going to do anything to improve the situation.

Why is he doing it then, you ask? Because he absolutely loves applied math, and he wants to play with the newest computer toys, and he didn't want a PhD.

Plus, he wanted to move to NYC, where his family is from, and he is making serious bank right of a masters program.

He may no longer be a man, but isn't a woman either.

I have a question because I am genuinely curious and know absolutely nothing about this subject except that genes, hormones and environment all combine to generate some outcome.

Are most people who are transgendered (transsexual?) gay or straight or what? I mean, this person had a sex change. Are they more likely to like dudes or chicks now, and would they be considered hetero, gay or a lesbian?

I'm (a) too lazy and (b) too busy to look this up right now.

/Back to work
//Why yes, I am lame, thanks for asking.

Just because you chop off a guy's dick doesn't make him a woman. The surgery doesn't do anything to make a woman, only remove the man. That is just an IT.

I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

Sympathizes

Monkeypillow: a lot of my interests happen to pay very well.

this is always a nice plus

jenlen: nice gams, indeed.

thanks :)

I picture it the same as some abolitionist trying to convince a plantation owner in South Carolina in 1860 that those black folks are indeed human beings and have rights, too.

At times it is like that. And really, if I'm not going to poke holes in people's arguments, what on Earth at my doing on Fark? ;)

DHMOlogist: Are most people who are transgendered (transsexual?) gay or straight or what?

It's like anyone else. Some are gay, some are straight and some are bi. Also some change a bit when they start taking hormones. But then again, they go through puberty all over again, so not surprising really. But really there's no overall leaning towards any particular sexuality among the transgendered. Which does mean that, yes, you can have a lesbian trapped in a man's body.

Thisbymaster: Just because you chop off a guy's dick doesn't make him a woman. The surgery doesn't do anything to make a woman, only remove the man. That is just an IT.

Michael Jackson's own mutilation would be more authentic if he requested his race changed on official documentation.

Thankfully the gay community is becoming resentful of the "GBLT" tag because one of those is not like the others. So called transsexuals hang on the coattails of homosexual movement and drag it down. I'd be bitter too if the ignorantly proud to be mentally ill made a mockery out of my struggle for equal rights.

jenlen: WhyteRaven... nice gams, indeed.

Also, I laud you for trying to educate the neanderthals, but I fear it is a lost cause..

That sums up the GID cult, it entitles the bearer to the same sense of smugness of people that drive hybrid Hummers. If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.

kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

And what of individuals who were born with CAIS, or Klineflter's, or intersex? Do you just not speak to them, and treat them as though they do not exist?

The most important sex organ is the one between your ears.

Yankees Team Gynecologist: She looks like a sort-of-masculine woman. I wouldn't have guessed she was born a dude, but I wouldn't exactly call her "hot."


I agree. She's not hot, but I'd say she's determinately not the last option at closing time.

beoswulf: That sums up the GID cult, it entitles the bearer to the same sense of smugness of people that drive hybrid Hummers. If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.




Since there is no way (at this time) to change the structure of the brain to match the body it is in, the only medical treatment available is to alter the body to match the brain. Men and women's brains are different; and nature makes mistakes.

Repo Man: kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

And what of individuals who were born with CAIS, or Klineflter's, or intersex? Do you just not speak to them, and treat them as though they do not exist?

Stop trying to confuse the issue, the intersex having to choose between a sex is not even close to expecting everyone to pretend a biological male become a woman. Not to mention those showing symptoms of those legitimate conditions are statistically insignificant.

The vast majority of so called transsexuals have GID, demanding someone recognize your sex "change" is equivalent to a schizophrenic demanding other people listen to the voices in his head.


The most important sex organ is the one between your ears.

And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

Good, then don't ask my weight either, I was born about 8 pounds.
/Or how long it is either. I was hung like a soybean according to the pictures
//So I guess since I was born with a baby penis, I still have a baby penis now?

beoswulf: Thankfully the gay community is becoming resentful of the "GBLT" tag because one of those is not like the others.

bwahahahahhaha so that's why the Chicago Pride parade last weekend had a transgendered grand marshal? Really?

If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.

That's what we do. I can only imagine what you think of cultures that aren't binary when it comes to sex and gender.

WhyteRaven74:
beoswulf: Thankfully the gay community is becoming resentful of the "GBLT" tag because one of those is not like the others.

bwahahahahhaha so that's why the Chicago Pride parade last weekend had a transgendered grand marshal? Really?

beoswulf is just trolling, and in poor taste at that. I troll sometimes myself, but I can't bring myself to spew vitriol at an oppressed, misunderstood minority just for lulz. That's what separates us from the /b/easts I guess.

So screw the haters, and god speed, tranny lady!

beoswulf: This dude suffers from a DSM listed Gender Identity Disorder, if he was treated as a child he could have benefited greatly, there's a 90%+ cure rate, the vast majority of little boys that want to mangle their genitals grow up to be healthy gay adult male and safe from the risks of unnecessary surgery and hormones at inappropriate dosages. ( for more info google the Village Voice article See Tom be Jane)

Unfortunately there is a cult-like community of enablers that are like very much like Scientologists in more ways their one; particularly in their vicious character assassinations of anybody that points the double standard for mentally ill men claiming to be women vs the mentally ill claiming to be historical figures.

that's the biggest pile of warrgarbl I've heard in a while. Homosexuals don't have gender identity issues. They are fine with who they are, it's the same-sex attraction thing that farks with their minds until they come to grips with it.

But you are partly correct. GID is probably what was taking place. This person was extremely uncomfortable in the role that her genes assigned her. She was able to correct that with surgery. Oh, and you do realize that the standard protocol prior to SRS is intensive counseling, right? At least a year as I understand it. You know, to make sure that this is really the road you want to travel down? 90% success rate my arse.

beoswulf: pretend a biological male become a woman.

There are some Native American tribes who'd pat you on the head and tell you go spend some money at the casino with that simplistic way of seeing things.

legitimate conditions are statistically insignifican

no individual is statistically insignificant. Statistics are well and good for population studies, but when it comes to how we treat people, frequency plays no part.

demanding someone recognize your sex "change" is equivalent to a schizophrenic demanding other people listen to the voices in his head.

A great many schizophrenics desperately wish other people could hear the voices in their head. For by hearing them others could understand the torment that is schizophrenia and just how overwhelming it is. Of course some schizophrenics don't hear any voices at all, their hallucinations are not of the auditory variety. In that case, they wish other people could experience them too.

And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

what behavioral therapy would cause someone to feel alright in their body their in and develop the behavioral particulars that go along with that body that they have never developed?

WhyteRaven74: Nice job assuming human development is limited to the binary categorical constructs of western logic.

Not to be trolling, but binary gender identity is just a western concept? Historically, I think it's a pretty universal standard that people classify genders are "penis" and "vagina" -- exceptions can probably be found anywhere, but I don't think there has been a major society that has not had societal gender definitions and roles based on external genitalia.

This is relevant to "her" interests:



/slightly hot

beoswulf: And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

The AMA and the APA beg to differ.

No Such Agency: beoswulf is just trolling, and in poor taste at that

Could be, though given some of what I've seen on the internet and the consistency, such as it is, of the argument? Not necessarily.

I've seen your trolls, they're nice get people to react trolls. I think I've even bit on one or two myself ;)

So screw the haters, and god speed, tranny lady!

thanks :)

kenposan: At least a year as I understand it

yep and at least in the states the guideline for getting surgery is two separate therapists have to sign off as saying you're fit for it and of sound mind.

beoswulf: Repo Man: kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

And what of individuals who were born with CAIS, or Klineflter's, or intersex? Do you just not speak to them, and treat them as though they do not exist?

Stop trying to confuse the issue, the intersex having to choose between a sex is not even close to expecting everyone to pretend a biological male become a woman. Not to mention those showing symptoms of those legitimate conditions are statistically insignificant.



And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.



Most intersexed individuals strongly identify as one sex or the other, without too much regard towards which they most look like physically. That's because the most important sex differences are physical structures in the brain.

Therapy cannot physically alter the portions of the brain that make us male or female.

The 7 Year Lurk: beoswulf: And that's exactly why sufferers of GID need behavioral therapy, not scalpels and dangerous hormones.

The AMA and the APA beg to differ.

But he's in finance, and knows better than those pointy headed scientifical types.

Goldeneye007: spqr_ca: Goldeneye007: Yeah, the fields that any idiot can get a degree in.

And yours is?

Econ & Math, working on a master's degree in Finance.

Ah, a field that any idiot can buy a degree in?

Quantum Apostrophe: kleppe: I don't care how you cut it, shape it, mutilate it - When I ask your gender I am asking what you were born as.

Good, then don't ask my weight either, I was born about 8 pounds.
/Or how long it is either. I was hung like a soybean according to the pictures
//So I guess since I was born with a baby penis, I still have a baby penis now?

. .

WhyteRaven74:


I'm really not here to discuss this with you. After all the effort of mutilating your body your denial must run way too deep for a fark thread to overcome. It'd be devastating to acknowledge you could have simply been treated and cured of GID all along.

Maybe it would help if you admitted that few people recognized the symptoms of GID in children years ago. But even though you missed out on the easy road to medical treatment as a youth I'd imagine that spending half the amount of time in therapy as you do on these fark threads would have likely made a huge difference.

On the other hand years of being forced to humor the delusions of GID victims has created a massive backlash against the transsexual cult. When news broke of the woman hopped on male hormones pretending to be a man that got pregnant it was the moment mainstream people and particularly health professionals snapped out of your daydream and declared the emperor has no clothes.

Donnchadha: but binary gender identity is just a western concept?

Among Native American groups, various Asian groups and some African groups sex and/or gender aren't necessarily binary. There are some groups that assume some people have a sex or gender that is neither all male or all female. Some have gender on a spectrum. Some hold intersex to be something far more general than we do. To various groups sex and/or gender are not rigidly linked to biological reproductive organs or functions.

WhyteRaven74-

Wow- you're the Tatsuma of gender indentity threads. In a good way. Keep up the good fight.

beoswulf: I'm really not here to discuss this with you.

You're not here to discuss anything just spew forth whatever uninformed platitudes you have in an effort to try to cling to your own rather peculiar biases.

After all the effort of mutilating your body your denial must run way too deep for a fark thread to overcome

Me in denial? Not hardly. I could have never become what you think I should've become, I was not born to be that. Had I been born to be that, life would be a farkload simpler.

When news broke of the woman hopped on male hormones pretending to be a man that got pregnant it was the moment mainstream people and particularly health professionals snapped out of your daydream and declared the emperor has no clothes.

Why are you so threatened by people not fitting into neat little boxes? It's not just this issue, it's every issue I see you comment on. The second someone doesn't fit into a neat little box, you just go off. Between that and your utter lack of empathy, you obviously have very limited experience in dealing with or even actually listening to anyone who is substantially different from yourself, a psychologist could say a thing or two about you. Of course a simple humanist could as well. For someone lacking empathy is unfit to stand in judgment of another and indeed to lack empathy for others is to be deficient as a person.

redsquid: you're the Tatsuma of gender indentity threads.

*snort* that made me literally LOL. And thanks :) For me there's nothing worse than missing one of these threads, in part cause they are rare and in part cause there is always one or two people around who do actually care and do actually want to know more. For me, that is enough. The loons? It's the internet, they're as much a part of it as porn is.

WhyteRaven74:

yep and at least in the states the guideline for getting surgery is two separate therapists have to sign off as saying you're fit for it and of sound mind.

So its harder to change genders than get a firearm? Gasp.
My only comment is about the "I had a medical condition" quote. I don't want to start any negative vibes here but I went through the start of the process in the late 80's. My background was bad - schizophrenia (mom and grandmom in the house) alcoholic father and repeated molestations for over 7 years by family drinking buddies. I made the decision to not change but was considered a potential candidate at the time.
I feel I made the choice that was right for me, as I'm sure others who have been in the process, but it isn't something that can be treated with a pill and aftercare instructions. This is an extremely hard decision and it takes several years to make the choice, no one can do it for you.

/still has respect for others in the change, took me three years when I did it.

It's funny how in so many threads, I encounter so many people who are very "live and let live" ... but someone is born with a mind in one gender and the body in another sex, and suddenly it's not ok to live and let live? I'm sure it's not the same people, but it's a strange dichotomy on here.

It's not as though gender reassignment surgery is ever considered lightly, people.

Sir_Dude: /still has respect for others in the change, took me three years when I did it.

In my case I've always known, just a matter of getting to where I do something about it.

austerity101: ... but someone is born with a mind in one gender and the body in another sex, and suddenly it's not ok to live and let live?

They're called trolls, don't feed them.

austerity101: It's not as though gender reassignment surgery is ever considered lightly, people.

Well, it should be obvious that most people would not willingly submit themselves to social humiliation and potentially alienate their entire family without good reason.

That being said, I would caution anyone from lumping social criticism of transsexuals along side medical criticism of current therapy. For instance, right now it's impossible to determine the root cause for gender dismorphia and to even separate patients into categories of those who are experiencing "true" dismorphia and those who have have extreme cases of fetishized transvestism.

This is a valid ethical concern for medical practitioners due to the fact that gender reassignment surgery is nigh unreversable and there have been cases of patients who despite the rigorous mental screening have come out the other side of the process even more depressed and suicidal than before, some of them even taking their own lives.

In a perfect world everyone would be diagnosed accurately and treated appropriately, but we're not there yet, so while I understand the good intentions that goes into a vigorous defense of transgendered people, I hope that there will still be some room for valid debate upon appropriate treatment techniques.

I hope that there will still be some room for valid debate upon appropriate treatment techniques.

Not on FARK there isn't. There is only room for shouting down knuckle draggers who display their ignorance with pride. The valid debate will have to happen in the journals of medical science, and the publications and conferences of psychiatrists, and others who specialize in the relevant fields.

scruffy1: Cute chick.



/hot

TwistedFark: This is a valid ethical concern for medical practitioners due to the fact that gender reassignment surgery is nigh unreversable and there have been cases of patients who despite the rigorous mental screening have come out the other side of the process even more depressed and suicidal than before, some of them even taking their own lives.

Someone could suffer from GID and more common variety clinical depression, I guess.

I imagine there have been more than a few depressives who have latched onto the idea of a sex change as the ultimate "cure" for their depression. Which is why the screening is in place. I have a friend who is bipolar and agoraphobic, and thought I doubt he'd ever consider a sex change, the desperation for some way out is intense at times.

WhyteRaven74: The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

My majors :)

/Start Physics PhD program in the fall
//Scared to death

It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline ((finance)) to be challenged and to learn.

This is possibly the wrongest statement I have ever read on fark. Finance? Best and brightest? Puhleaze.

I'm confused. At first, I thought she was a hermaphrodite who had parts of both and then cut of some to be one rather than the other but then I got confused. But I think I'm not confused anymore.

Bacontastesgood: It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline ((finance)) to be challenged and to learn.

This is possibly the wrongest statement I have ever read on fark. Finance? Best and brightest? Puhleaze.

It's true! I mean, look at the fantastic state of our economy right now, and how all the hard work, dedication, hypotheses and predictions from the best and brightest are enriching our lives every day! Let's not forget that the best and brightest are to thank for Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, GM, and quite a few banks (who's primary focus is finance even) for folding and/or being able to fark over Americans for billions of dollars that we will never see again.

/best and brightest my ass
//degree in finance = aiming to steal money from people who actually work for it

RemyDuron: /Start Physics PhD program in the fall

awesome!

/made my way through Roger Penrose's Road to Reality, which is basically a single volume undergraduate physics crash course

RoxtarRyan: /best and brightest my ass

Funny how people will totally neglect any moral element in calling someone the best

WhyteRaven74: ...to lack empathy for others is to be deficient as a person.

Fark quote of the year.

+1, would recommend

WhyteRaven74: Donnchadha: but binary gender identity is just a western concept?

Among Native American groups, various Asian groups and some African groups sex and/or gender aren't necessarily binary. There are some groups that assume some people have a sex or gender that is neither all male or all female. Some have gender on a spectrum. Some hold intersex to be something far more general than we do. To various groups sex and/or gender are not rigidly linked to biological reproductive organs or functions.

In the West, we call those third-sex dudes, "catchers".

Generally speaking, in the cultures being discussed, you're not considered homosexual if you're only pitching and it's only part time.

/would hit the blond nerd

I don't care what physical changes have been made, the question of being a man or woman is defined by the chromosomes. That can not be changed, so he is still a man.

Yes, I tend to piss off the GLBT people around here.

WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: Sorry, her gender and sex is male. whether or not you want to believe otherwise.

What you want to believe doesn't overturn what's well accepted in psychological, anthropological and sociological circles.

Ah, yes. The politically correct pseudo-science crowd.

OgreMagi: the question of being a man or woman is defined by the chromosomes

Only if you want to take a really simplistic view of it. Given that it's one gene on the Y chromosome that triggers male differentiation, if it doesn't work, you get an XY female.

Ok so I'm on mobile so I can't quote anyone, but this is for all those discussing if your sex and gender are the same thing etc etc.

It is ironic that Texas's refusal to recognise sex change opperations as real change of legal gender lead them to be the first state to grant a same sex marriage. A lesbian and a man who had a sex change opperation to become a lesbian (which I totally don't understnd butr don't need to as neither of those two people are me).

The state refused to recognise the mans switch to female so they grantted the marriage between two women.

No matter what you think about the issue of gender v sex,or same sex marriage, the irony here is beautiful.


/Blackberry post at 4am so forgive spelling.

Executive transsexual?

WhyteRaven74: /made my way through Roger Penrose's Road to Reality, which is basically a single volume undergraduate physics crash course

Neat. So far, I've gone through AP physics B. Start university in a couple of months -- praying that in addion to doing well, I figure out what it is I'm supposed to be. Growing up sucks -- how'd you get over it?

OgreMagi: Yes, I tend to piss off the GLBT people around here.

Willful ignorance on Fark tends to piss off more than just the GLBT types.

hetheeme:

Well, to be honest, I think every male is a Lesbian trapped in a man's body.

beoswulf:
That's outrageous, next someone will say a person born in the 20th century can't demand to legally be addressed as a knight of King Arther's round table.

Dude, on my license it reads: Sir Skippy of Sinistra, Duke of Moravia, Knight of the Round Table

/DMV gave me a real hard time about switching to 4 point text

I've taking enough social sciences/psychology/anthropology/biology to comment: Yeah, chick is still a dude. It really is black and white like that. She's altered her body to appear female to appease her inner demons, but genetically, still a dude. I don't have a thing against someone who does this, but they are simply deceiving themselves into thinking they've changed themselves on anything but a superficial level. That is what needs to be treated by psychology. They need to come to terms with the fact that even though the penis or vagina is changed, they really are no different than they were before.

/read As Nature Made Him as one farker suggested, I would recommend it. It is overwhelmingly in favor of a genetic basis for gender not a "I really feel like a woman" bs emotional attachment to gender.

"Having been one of the guys - or at least doing a good job of pretending I was - I have seen it from both sides.

I'll bet 'she' still does.

Good for her, but I wonder if the award is really appropriate. Apparently she had a good bit of her business success before transitioning -- indeed, that's how she paid for the surgery. To whatever degree a bias in favor of males exists (something the award by it's nature is highlighting by limiting it to female recipients), she likely benefitted from such bias before becoming female.

So I don't know.

/cute though
//would hit her and have her babies
///what?

They will often make the presumption that I don't know my maths or technology.

Apparently not too keen on english either

bhcompy: Apparently not too keen on english either

She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

bhcompy: FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

Here you go, idiot. On an American dictionary site, no less.. (new window)

bhcompy: Maths? Really?

Yes really

Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

It's standard in both British English and Australian English, as well as being widely used by English speakers from the Indian subcontinent. Perhaps you're so attuned to hearing 'math' that you've not perceived the difference, but you appear to be on very shaky ground when assessing others' educational achievements.

WAIT!

wtf you guys?

If its okay to be born a man and have your penis made into something vagina-like...

Then why is it NOT okay to say that this person is a man who had his penis turned into something vagina-like?

Is there something wrong with that?

Because its kind of farked up that most of the people here who feel that there's nothing wrong with this...

seem to feel that there's a lot wrong with saying this.

Some people will call this person a man some will call him (or her) a woman.

Is it really so IMPORTANT when the reality is what it is and when you say that gender is not so easily definable anyways??

If the "reality" of the gender situation is so hard to clarify ANYWAYS...

Then WHY does it matter at all whether or not this person is called a MAN or WOMAN?

Seriously.

What is there to be ashamed of?

Think about it and stop wining.

There's nothing wrong with this man living as a woman... and there's nothing wrong with this woman having been born a man right??

So get over it and stop acting like this some kind of crime against the sexually confused.

OR is there something WRONG with sexual confusion? Because the irony is strong in this thread.

Sir_Dude: So its harder to change genders than get a firearm? Gasp.

And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

srsly? srsly? WHO came up with this analogy? It's clearly designed to compare two things that are not at all comparable and appeal to people on a highly emotional level.

That is COMPLETELY DISHONEST.

No respect.

How does gun ownership have even ONE thing in common with gender reassignment?

This entire analogy is based around the flawed rationale that if one owns a gun one is going to use it to kill people.

FAIL.

Shagbert: bhcompy: FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

Here you go, idiot. On an American dictionary site, no less.. (new window)

I WAS TOLD THERE'D BE NO MATHS!

Murkanen: OgreMagi: Yes, I tend to piss off the GLBT people around here.

Willful ignorance on Fark tends to piss off more than just the GLBT types.

It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off. I don't give a crap what people do in their bedroom. I voted against prop 8. However, a sex change operation is only changing the superficial packaging, not the underlying reality.

It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off.

Yes, I'm sure that is the problem.

Would I have guessed that she used to be a man? No. Do I think she's attractive? Well, for England. *Shrug*

Technically still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalance.

Tainted1: TechnicallyChromosomally still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalancelegally a woman.

FTFY.

You people can label this person all you want ... but if you didn't know any differently, it wouldn't matter--and the law lets her live as a woman.

Tainted1: Technically still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalance.

In "problems of the human condition" that ranks a lot lower than depressed and suicidal. Sorry that an individual's happiness offends you.

Repo Man: beoswulf: That sums up the GID cult, it entitles the bearer to the same sense of smugness of people that drive hybrid Hummers. If you were actually concerned about GID sufferers you'd give them the tough love they need to get medical treatment.

Since there is no way (at this time) to change the structure of the brain to match the body it is in, the only medical treatment available is to alter the body to match the brain. Men and women's brains are different; and nature makes mistakes.

Beoswulf was one of those mistakes.

Monkeypillow: how'd you get over it?

how says I've ever grown up? ;) I tried it for a while, didn't like it. Plus doing creative type work means never having to grown up.

OgreMagi: Ah, yes. The politically correct pseudo-science crowd.

No just the people who point out that things aren't necessarily as they seem and that there's more than one way to look at something.

rat_brain_flies_plane: And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

You totally missed his point.

OgreMagi: It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off.

There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Just remember it's far easier to dig a hole than to build a pole...

He's still a guy - just a divot where his junk used to be.

Male Humans are born with male genitalia. If you're born with a shlong, I'm calling you sir.

Shagbert: bhcompy: FarkinNortherner: She's a native speaker of English, not American, ignoramus.

Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

Here you go, idiot. On an American dictionary site, no less.. (new window)

Says it's British. Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

WhyteRaven74: Goldeneye007: It is because some of the best and the brightest come through our discipline to be challenged and to learn.

The best and brightest are off in physics, math both pure and applied, engineering fields, chemistry and a few others. Finance? Not exactly.

:D

As an engineer i appreciate it, but you're giving some of my peers far to much credit.... for example: I drunk what is allegedly a civil engineer... and that obtuse ignorant farker was having issues with the 'set of the empty set,' many basic rules of algebra, and abb3w's (p or q) inquisition... and still to this day will claim he has 4 semesters of calculus under his belt which if you've had one of these conversations with him you'd realize he actually has grasped little of what passed in one ear and out the other.

As far as goldeneye belittling people with PhD's while he cranks out his masters in farking finance (lol) ... well as W.C. Fields would say "you just can't smarten up a chump."

/any bets on whether or not he has a 'GED in Law' too?

FootInMouthDisease: 'set of the empty set,

A group of people posting at Free Republic? No? Damn it. Um give me a minute.... ;)

well as W.C. Fields would say "you just can't smarten up a chump."

hehe I was thinking of all the math heads I've read about in finance and all that, none of them studied finance. One of them at least created a way to do better at black jack before he got into stock picking.

WhyteRaven74: rat_brain_flies_plane: And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

You totally missed his point.

What that before someone takes their penis and pays a doctor to flip it inside out, they might want to be sure that it isn't something they're going to regret for the rest of thier life, introducing additional turmoil, and physical and/or mental damage?


I suppose this is totally like gun control.

rat_brain_flies_plane: I suppose this is totally like gun control.

He was using some hyperbole there. If you read the rest of his post, you'd see he knows of what he speaks.

OgreMagi: I don't care what physical changes have been made, the question of being a man or woman is defined by the chromosomes. That can not be changed, so he is still a man.

Psst. That stuff they taught you in middle school about XX = female and XY = male? It was simplified for middle-schoolers.

Yes, I tend to piss off entertain the GLBT people around here.

FTFY, I think.

WhyteRaven74: Monkeypillow: how'd you get over it?

how says I've ever grown up? ;) I tried it for a while, didn't like it. Plus doing creative type work means never having to grown up.

OgreMagi: Ah, yes. The politically correct pseudo-science crowd.

No just the people who point out that things aren't necessarily as they seem and that there's more than one way to look at something.

rat_brain_flies_plane: And THIS is a farking RETARDED analogy.

You totally missed his point.

OgreMagi: It's my refusal to ignore real science that pisses them off.

There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Thank you, WR. Just, thank you. There are other voices of reason in this thread but yours is an outstanding one. You're a person who I'd genuinely love to have a conversation with at some point.

escapedlabmonkey: Male Humans are born with male genitalia. If you're born with a shlong, I'm calling you sir.

How large a clitoris does one need in order to earn that honorific? Alternatively, what degree of hypospadias (new window, NSFW image) or other malformation leads you to pronounce "that's no 'shlong'"?

Basing the determination solely on infant anatomical features is perhaps even sillier than basing it solely on a simple-minded glance at the chromosomes. I guess you'd put all the babies with ambiguous genitalia out on a rock or something.

WhyteRaven74: rat_brain_flies_plane: I suppose this is totally like gun control.

He was using some hyperbole there. If you read the rest of his post, you'd see he knows of what he speaks.

My bad. I think you're right.

jfarkinB: Basing the determination solely on infant anatomical features is perhaps even sillier than basing it solely on a simple-minded glance at the chromosomes. I guess you'd put all the babies with ambiguous genitalia out on a rock or something.

Well what are we supposed to base it on then...

... and why does it even matter?

Whether they call a person a man or woman who farking cares? After all gender is so difficult to define eh?

Honestly, if you were born with a dick and had it turned into a vajayjay and you felt that there was nothing wrong with that, then why would you care if someone called you a man? I can see the problem if someone is using it to mock you or shiat talk you... but seriously...

What's there to be ashamed of?

(and wait a minute... if gender is SO difficult to define... then shouldn't we wait until people are like 25 to determine whether or not they weren't destined to become men or women?)

You used to be a man and some people are still going to say you're a man while others are going to call you a woman.

Not everyone's going to be on the same page about it. Oh well. As long as it isn't abusive why get your panties in a knot?

gadian: I've taking enough social sciences/psychology/anthropology/biology to comment: Yeah, chick is still a dude. It really is black and white like that. She's altered her body to appear female to appease her inner demons, but genetically, still a dude. I don't have a thing against someone who does this, but they are simply deceiving themselves into thinking they've changed themselves on anything but a superficial level. That is what needs to be treated by psychology. They need to come to terms with the fact that even though the penis or vagina is changed, they really are no different than they were before.

/read As Nature Made Him as one farker suggested, I would recommend it. It is overwhelmingly in favor of a genetic basis for gender not a "I really feel like a woman" bs emotional attachment to gender.

QFT.

jfarkinB: escapedlabmonkey: Male Humans are born with male genitalia. If you're born with a shlong, I'm calling you sir.

How large a clitoris does one need in order to earn that honorific? Alternatively, what degree of hypospadias (new window, NSFW image) or other malformation leads you to pronounce "that's no 'shlong'"?

Basing the determination solely on infant anatomical features is perhaps even sillier than basing it solely on a simple-minded glance at the chromosomes. I guess you'd put all the babies with ambiguous genitalia out on a rock or something.

X or Y chromosome? Thank you.

Good butt-sniffing lord, do these threads always turn into such a trainwreck?

I find it utterly astounding that "hrr, hrr, your social gender must be determined by a genetic test" attracts so vocal a following...

Leishu: You're a person who I'd genuinely love to have a conversation with at some point.

I'd like that as well :)

rat_brain_flies_plane: I think you're right

yeah he talks about his experience with therapy on the subject at hand, definitely not off the wall, just a bit of hyperbole to start.

Minsky: do these threads always turn into such a trainwreck?

Given that this thread wasn't put on the mainpage it's not as much of a trainwreck as other threads on the subject have been.

WhyteRaven74: Minsky: do these threads always turn into such a trainwreck?

Given that this thread wasn't put on the mainpage it's not as much of a trainwreck as other threads on the subject have been.

Wow. Then I either admire your dedication in surviving them, or am a little concerned about the masochistic streak.

// Off to solace myself with a saner cross-section of humanity.

Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

bhcompy: I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

A lot of people won't hire retards, so you're out of luck.

Seriously, actually travel abroad some before harshing on other English dialects and making an ass out of yourself in the process.

EyeForgot: Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

As farked up as this seems, its probably the best thing to do. I am proponent of eugenics so getting rid of genetically screwed up people is desirable. It is just too bad that most people see this as cruel and nazi-like.

WhyteRaven74:

Among Native American groups, various Asian groups and some African groups sex and/or gender aren't necessarily binary.

Add Polynesia and the Pacific Isles to that list

bhcompy: They will often make the presumption that I don't know my maths or technology.

Apparently not too keen on english either

bhcompy: Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

bhcompy: Says it's British. Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

What a stupid woman! Why don't she speak Amuricun? Everybody knows Amuricun English is the only proper English. I hate people who leave "the" out when they say "university" or "hospital" too. Ignorant farks.

100 Watt Walrus: bhcompy: They will often make the presumption that I don't know my maths or technology.

Apparently not too keen on english either

bhcompy: Maths? Really? I've worked in multinational technology business for a few years and never heard the term. Doesn't show a high education level in any dialect of English I've heard

bhcompy: Says it's British. Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

What a stupid woman! Why don't she speak Amuricun? Everybody knows Amuricun English is the only proper English. I hate people who leave "the" out when they say "university" or "hospital" too. Ignorant farks.

Tonto went to hospital.

WhyteRaven74: There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Sociologists and psychologists? Get back to me when you find a real scientists.

irrational: EyeForgot: Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

As farked up as this seems, its probably the best thing to do. I am proponent of eugenics so getting rid of genetically screwed up people is desirable. It is just too bad that most people see this as cruel and nazi-like.

Uhm, intersexuality is not genetic. X, XXX, XXY, and XYY people are the only genetic gender abnormalities, and XXX and XYY have the same rates of ambiguous genitalia as XX and XY, and X and XXY are usually infertile anyway. So you don't actually have to worry about intersexuals passing on their intersexuality, their kids would be normal and not intersexual.

/I do agree that eugenics is okay, but prefer abortion as a method to infanticide
//but doing what you suggest would not affect the genetic quality of the human race at all, so it seems pointless

OgreMagi: WhyteRaven74: There are some scientists who'd like a word with you.

Sociologists and psychologists? Get back to me when you find a real scientists.

Also neurologists and biologists studying developmental growth, but hey.

There's a weird divide in transsexualism. There's some who want to be the other gender because they are sick, and confused, and believe every gender stereotype in the book, and they think their life would be better if they were the other gender; they're delusional, and need to be treated with psychotherapy to help them understand what gender really means and more so, that being another gender won't make their life better, they'll still be the same person and their brain won't magically change. These people are usually also attention whores, self-victimizers, and make a lot of bad life decisions unrelated to transsexuality. Also, they tend to be the ones running to the media all the time, but I don't know about this woman.

Then there are the people who aren't making a big deal out of things, but they've just never felt right, they've always felt like their body is wrong and they are the other gender, but yet they understand that being the other gender won't make their life better or change their personality, they don't try to fit themselves into the stereotypical mold of the gender they want to be, and honestly, they go, get their sex change, then go right back to living their life with little fuss, except they don't need as much therapy and they are happier and more successful. They don't expect special treatment because they're transsexual (though they DO want to be treated like the gender they believe themselves to be), and really, the sex change DOES solve their problems. A lot of people born with ambiguous genitalia wind up like this later in life.

That's the thing-- category A "transsexuals" don't have any improvement in their lives once they get surgery. Their life sucks because they're crazy, and they make it suck, and they need therapy. And therapy will work on them, and can make them no longer "transsexual."

But category B transsexuals, no matter how much they try or how much therapy they get, will never stop being transsexual. Maybe someday we'll have a brain surgery or a pill that will cure it but honestly, they won't change no matter how much therapy they get, because it's something separate from run-of-the-mill delusions-- it's pretty clearly connected to hormones in the womb or a genetic aberration or something. So they can be unhappy all their life, or they can get an operation that makes them able to go on and live a perfectly normal, happy life-- and they do, afterwards.

The thing is, giving a category A "transsexual" a sex-change is borderline malpractice, so obviously there needs to be a serious psychiatric vetting process for people who come in with transsexuality. Worst of all, category A seems to be a lot more common these days, so doctors are constantly faced with pseudotranssexuals and thus are far too skeptical of the genuine ones, often subjecting them to years of very harsh and useless therapy-- and the later the transition, the more challenging it is for them to pass effectively afterwards.

I hope the DSM-V doesn't take out transsexuality. A gender reassignment surgeon is not qualified to tell the difference between a pseudotranssexual and a true transsexual, and honestly, such a huge change should require a supportive therapist regardless. It's not like being gay, you need medical treatment anyway and it's too big of a step to do without psychiatric involvement.

/chromosomes mean nothing
//a person with XY chromosomes can have a uterus if the hormones were right at the right times, though she's usually genetically infertile-- should they have to go through a sex-change operation to make them look male just because they have a Y chromosome?

Minsky: Then I either admire your dedication in surviving them

heh I'm used to it by now, plus if I don't weather the storm, who will?

Sidetrack: Add Polynesia and the Pacific Isles to that list

Yep they're among them too

Basiorana: and the later the transition, the more challenging it is for them to pass effectively afterwards.

Therapists have no real say so on when someone transitions. A person is free to transition as they see fit. All that a therapist has say so over is when a person can start hormones. But I haven't heard of anyone ending up waiting just because the therapists thinks based upon what others might say that they're not in their right mind.

OgreMagi: Sociologists and psychologists? Get back to me when you find a real scientists.

Sociologists are pretty good at noticing differing ways of seeing things in different societies. Unlike you they don't dismiss a cultures traditional way of seeing things just because they're different from their own. As for psychologists, given the work some do looking at brain activity in relation to behavior, you can't exactly go wanting for them to be objective, they already are.

irrational: I am proponent of eugenics so getting rid of genetically screwed up people is desirable

And how pray tell do you gauage genetically screwed up?

EyeForgot: They will always be fake no matter wha

Hey let's euthanize albinos, after all they can claim to be Asian, black or whatever else they are born, but hey they don't look it, so must be faking it.

irrational: EyeForgot: Honestly the kindest thing to do to a baby born intersexed would be to euthanize them. They will always be fake no matter what.

As farked up as this seems, its probably the best thing to do. I am proponent of eugenics so getting rid of genetically screwed up people is desirable. It is just too bad that most people see this as cruel and nazi-like.

Uhm, intersexuality is not genetic. X, XXX, XXY, and XYY people are the only genetic gender abnormalities, and XXX and XYY have the same rates of ambiguous genitalia as XX and XY, and X and XXY are usually infertile anyway. So you don't actually have to worry about intersexuals passing on their intersexuality, their kids would be normal and not intersexual.

/I do agree that eugenics is okay, but prefer abortion as a method to infanticide
//but doing what you suggest would not affect the genetic quality of the human race at all, so it seems pointless

Or the mother was a stupid biatch that was more concerned about her tits getting bigger so was on recalled and expired birth control (70's med student) and didn't realize she was el'prego until she was well into her 2nd trimester.

The infanticide is more for the mental bullshiat that the kid would have to grow up with. The solitude cause they could never be with anyone as an adult without the fear that the s/o would blab their f'n mouth about it. The fun times when they go to jail and the cops get every other cop to come look at the freak then throw them in with general population. Oh and rape/molestation haha farking ha. The cops will be worse to them when it gets reported than the actual rape was.

Killing them as infants would be way kinder than having them live a bullshiat life.

EyeForgot: Killing them as infants would be way kinder than having them live a bullshiat life.

You have a very negative view of life, and yet you wish to prevent others from living? Irony is wondering why you never returns its calls.

OgreMagi: It's my refusal choice to ignore real science that pisses them off.

Fixed, and yes. That is what I was getting at. You refuse to acknowledge facts because they make you squeamish. This makes you willfully ignorant on this particular subject.

I don't give a crap what people do in their bedroom. I voted against prop 8.

That's nice, irrelevant, but nice.

However, a sex change operation is only changing the superficial packaging, not the underlying reality.

The underlying reality is that the operation is to correct a physical deformity; the genitalia not matching physical wiring of the brain.

WhyteRaven74: Basiorana: and the later the transition, the more challenging it is for them to pass effectively afterwards.

Therapists have no real say so on when someone transitions. A person is free to transition as they see fit. All that a therapist has say so over is when a person can start hormones. But I haven't heard of anyone ending up waiting just because the therapists thinks based upon what others might say that they're not in their right mind.

I was talking about biologically transitioning only. Obviously it doesn't matter what a therapist says before a person can start living as their chosen gender, but as you say, a therapist can decide when the person starts their hormones, and the later in life a person starts the hormones, the more they look like their birth gender; transwomen who take female hormones before they are 15 are 100% convincing, you could never tell, unless they happen to be biologically very, very tall, but a transwoman who starts in her forties will always have a pronounced Adam's apple, masculine jawline, struggles with facial hair, etc etc. I know one person who couldn't have access to hormones when she was young (the therapists in her region all favored changing the mind, not the body), and she's now in her forties and basically said "screw it" to the whole thing because she knows that the surgery and hormones will not allow her to truly live unhindered as a woman, she'll always look like a man in drag, so why spend the money when she'd never be treated as she wants to be anyway? So the wait to take hormones can have serious consequences on the individuals.

/There are also whole websites on how to "fake it" for the pseudotranssexuals who want the hormones despite believing that being female means you are a sweet, patient, nice lady who everyone loves and treats like a princess
//Scares the shiat out of me

EyeForgot: Or the mother was a stupid biatch that was more concerned about her tits getting bigger so was on recalled and expired birth control (70's med student) and didn't realize she was el'prego until she was well into her 2nd trimester.

The infanticide is more for the mental bullshiat that the kid would have to grow up with. The solitude cause they could never be with anyone as an adult without the fear that the s/o would blab their f'n mouth about it. The fun times when they go to jail and the cops get every other cop to come look at the freak then throw them in with general population. Oh and rape/molestation haha farking ha. The cops will be worse to them when it gets reported than the actual rape was.

Killing them as infants would be way kinder than having them live a bullshiat life.

First of all, most of the time, they are born with ambiguous gentialia, a quick surgery once they're a young kid and it becomes clear what gender their brain is will solve the problem-- they might have a small penis or not really have a uterus, but a cop is not going to be able to tell. True cases of ambiguous genitalia aren't jsut left like that. The worst that happens to an intersex individual is that the doctor gives them surgery when they are a baby and goes the wrong way, and they wind up transsexual later on, or if the doctors do it right, they might wind up with a penis on the smaller end. I hope you don't advocate killing all men who don't measure up.

Honestly, the issue in prisons is with pre-op transsexuals who take hormones, and thus have breasts and a penis, not with intersexuals. By the time an intersexual reaches puberty, he or she has been assigned a clear gender and has been given appropriate surgery-- unlike transsexuals, no doctor objects to reassigning someone with ambiguous genitalia. So they have a clear gender, and go on to live their life, and maybe the guys are a little self-conscious about their penis size, and maybe they have to take some hormones because they have malformed sex organs, and usually they're sterile. But honestly, all those horrible problems that make life not worth living-- small penis size, need to replace hormones, sterility-- are found in normal adults too. My very female sister has to replace her hormones and is sterile because she has a brain tumor on her pituitary gland. Is her life not worth living? Oh God, she has to take a pill every day and might have to adopt! The horrors!

Intersexual babies grow up and live normal lives. They don't regret being born, they contribute to society, and they live as whatever gender they were assigned as. It's not a big deal unless they were reassigned wrong.

Basiorana: I was talking about biologically transitioning only. Obviously it doesn't matter what a therapist says before a person can start living as their chosen gender, but as you say, a therapist can decide when the person starts their hormones, and the later in life a person starts the hormones, the more they look like their birth gender; transwomen who take female hormones before they are 15 are 100% convincing, you could never tell, unless they happen to be biologically very, very tall, but a transwoman who starts in her forties will always have a pronounced Adam's apple, masculine jawline, struggles with facial hair, etc etc.

What about facial feminization surgery? That seems to take care of a lot of those problems. It's not cheap but per the pictures it looks to be extremely effective.

I had a very dear friend who was a TS who began trying to transition in her twenties and ultimately committed suicide because her physical attributes would never let her pass as a woman (she was 6'8", 325 pounds). Being a biological woman and getting bombarded with the media's version of what I should look like, I can't even begin to imagine the hell Rachel went through. "I'm a freak any way you slice it," she said once. I sometimes wonder if she'd been able to get a hold of hormones in her teens before her growth spurt if the effects could have been lessened.

What's the DSM IV diagnostic code for people who are way, way, WAY too concerned with what other people have in their undies?

Marisyana: Basiorana: I was talking about biologically transitioning only. Obviously it doesn't matter what a therapist says before a person can start living as their chosen gender, but as you say, a therapist can decide when the person starts their hormones, and the later in life a person starts the hormones, the more they look like their birth gender; transwomen who take female hormones before they are 15 are 100% convincing, you could never tell, unless they happen to be biologically very, very tall, but a transwoman who starts in her forties will always have a pronounced Adam's apple, masculine jawline, struggles with facial hair, etc etc.

What about facial feminization surgery? That seems to take care of a lot of those problems. It's not cheap but per the pictures it looks to be extremely effective.

I had a very dear friend who was a TS who began trying to transition in her twenties and ultimately committed suicide because her physical attributes would never let her pass as a woman (she was 6'8", 325 pounds). Being a biological woman and getting bombarded with the media's version of what I should look like, I can't even begin to imagine the hell Rachel went through. "I'm a freak any way you slice it," she said once. I sometimes wonder if she'd been able to get a hold of hormones in her teens before her growth spurt if the effects could have been lessened.

As a bio-female who is tall and built pretty sturdily, amen to the whole bombardment from the media and rest of society really sucking. Given how much shiat I got merely for being rather tall and a bit more muscular than the average chick (and thus get TONS of really lovely comments - "Well, you're too ... athletic... to be really pretty, but there's still stuff you can do!"), I can't even begin to fathom how much grief transwomen who are even taller might get from self-appointed guardians of gender.

The people getting so worked up over what other people probably have issues along these lines as well - either they're trans themselves and terrified of it, are possibly gay and terrified of it (thinking that a good looking trans-woman could turn 'em or something), or are crazy in some other way. There's simply no other valid reasons for the ones who are in this thread, posting over and over again how they disagree with the things strangers do to their own bodies, in such forceful terms.

I'm human on the outside, but I'm all sheep on the inside.
At least I have ewes willing to accept me the way I am...

The guy looks cute, but it is a guy.

Minsky: Tainted1: Technically still a man, but a man with a mangled penis and a hormone imbalance.
In "problems of the human condition" that ranks a lot lower than depressed and suicidal. Sorry that an individual's happiness offends you.

I made no such claims, oh lord of butt hurt.

bhcompy: Evenso, I'd never hire someone that talked like an LOLCAT. I can haz maths?

I find it hard to imagine anyone placing you in a position to make hiring decisions. Why not just admit you were wrong, rather than continue digging ?

Link (new window)

As long as a person is happy, why does it matter what their prefrence may be.

there is where all the closet cross dressers come out of the woodwork to defend people on fark.

/it's funny.

She looks to be doing well for herself.

http://kate.craig-wood.com/pics.php

Basiorana: starts in her forties will always have a pronounced Adam's apple, masculine jawline, struggles with facial hair, etc etc.

Surgery can take care of the first two, assuming they're even issues to begin with and they're not always. And the facial hair is taken care of easily enough with laser treatment these days, unless you want to suffer with electrolysis.

Also strictly speaking, and legally speaking, you can bypass the therapist in getting hormones and some medications that help things along, like testosterone antagonists. Actually the latter you never need a therapist's note for since their effects aren't permanent and they don't really lead to any physical changes anyways. But as it is, the guidelines aren't legally binding in any sense. They're just how ideally it's done.

metztli: The people getting so worked up over what other people probably have issues along these lines as well

It's almost exclusively guys who get worked up over it. Women? Rarely ever care. I can only recall a couple in a few years of seeing these threads on Fark, ever getting bent out of shape over the issue.

haemaker: "I thought you said you were born in Iran."

Video goodness

WhyteRaven74: *snort* that made me literally LOL. And thanks :) For me there's nothing worse than missing one of these threads, in part cause they are rare and in part cause there is always one or two people around who do actually care and do actually want to know more.

Just like religion threads!

Wait a sec...

WAIT!

wtf you guys?

If its okay to write an email with typing that's letter-like...

Then why is it NOT okay to write something letter-like instead like an instant messenger?

Is there something wrong with that?

Because its kind of farked up that most people here feel you should type with with paragraphs...

seem to feel that there's a lot wrong typing this.

Some people will call this typing annoying.

Is it really so IMPORTANT when you can understand what's being said?

If the "reality" of typing is to clarify things ANYWAYS...

Then WHY does it matter if you pretend you are using AIM or TWITTER?

Seriously.

What is there to be ashamed of?

Think about it and stop wining.

There's nothing wrong with typing like this... and there's nothing wrong with taking up a lot of spance pointlessly.

So get over it and stop acting like it's some crime against grammar and common sense.

OR is there something WRONG with conversational confusion?

genzoman: there is where all the closet cross dressers come out of the woodwork to defend people on fark.

/it's funny.

Mmm. I guess you're pretty comfortable there in the projection room.

cthellis: Wait a sec...

hehe notice something? ;)

jfarkinB: Mmm. I guess you're pretty comfortable there in the projection room.

*golf clap*

For real? Nobody posted the bikini shot?

/Hot?

radioman_: The guy looks cute, but it is a guy.

She was lucky to have a naturally androgynous face (least I'm assuming it was).