logruszed: Not understanding the definition of "Socialism" is currently dividing the U.S.

It's been a long time since I read Marx but as I understand it, Socialism is a necessary step toward Communism wherein private ownership is usurped by the state until the Communist Utopia is achieved. Unfortunately the Utopia never comes and you're left with a more or less repressive government supported by a massive bureaucracy. I would have googled it to be sure but frankly I have as little interest in politics as I do in the ramblings of an insane derelict.

/Actually do enjoy listening to insane derelict ramblings

Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.

hurdboy: Fano: Freedom is scary. Freedom includes freedom to fail.

This. And it's not like FRG is some sort of ruthless bastion of capitalism. It's not like a lot of countries in South America, where the capital is in the hands of an elite ruling class and a small middle class, while 50%+ of the population lives in squalor.

If anything, I could probably attribute a lot of this to the fact that if you start from a low point in Germany, you're never going to get incredibly rich. The harder you work, the more of it gets taken. Quick! Name three incredibly successful European companies from the last fifty years that started off with basically nothing. Now do the same in the US. Apple, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Wal-Mart, etc. You could name examples all day long.

And that ten year-old kid needs to ask his parents why there were long lines of Trabbies at the Czech border (to travel through to get to Austria). I'm sure he doesn't know.

I would have to go looking things up, but I'm pretty sure I've read recent studies suggesting that there is more upward mobility in European countries these days than in the United States. Maybe if I get over my current lazy moment I will Google...

Naman: Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.



Commiesymps on Fark often like to remind us that true communism has never been tried.

Naman: Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.

People who think they are sooooooo much smarter than the ones that actually lived under socialism amuse me. Suuuuure, So freaking aorable. Oh, and here comes the semantics game. Let us be clear: communism/socialism/stalinism = all the farking same. It's like sorting crap by flavor. I'm talking about the countries and societies formerly referred to as communist countries, not freaking Sweden.

Kar98: Suuuuure, So freaking aorable

I meant:
"Sure, you could make it work. Soooo freaking adorable."

WorldCitizen: hurdboy: Fano: Freedom is scary. Freedom includes freedom to fail.

This. And it's not like FRG is some sort of ruthless bastion of capitalism. It's not like a lot of countries in South America, where the capital is in the hands of an elite ruling class and a small middle class, while 50%+ of the population lives in squalor.

If anything, I could probably attribute a lot of this to the fact that if you start from a low point in Germany, you're never going to get incredibly rich. The harder you work, the more of it gets taken. Quick! Name three incredibly successful European companies from the last fifty years that started off with basically nothing. Now do the same in the US. Apple, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Wal-Mart, etc. You could name examples all day long.

And that ten year-old kid needs to ask his parents why there were long lines of Trabbies at the Czech border (to travel through to get to Austria). I'm sure he doesn't know.

I would have to go looking things up, but I'm pretty sure I've read recent studies suggesting that there is more upward mobility in European countries these days than in the United States. Maybe if I get over my current lazy moment I will Google...

I believe you may be correct, I remember reading such an article in The Economist or some such.

The truth is that, to many young people today, "communism" and "socialism" are just a couple a dem "ism" words and don't really mean anything. You might as well be saying "Protestantism," "Taoism" or "Zoroastrianism" - it would means just as much to these Idiocracy nimrods.

With the way modernists have dumbed down education, you have two small groups and one large group in this society. The two small groups are the people who knows what's going on, and the people who don't know and know they don't know. The large group comprises people who don't know what's going on but think they do, otherwise known as Farkers.

Fano: Commiesymps on Fark often like to remind us that true communism has never been tried.

Communism doesn't work for the same reasons that Libertarianism doesn't work.

Both work just fine when you have a like minded group of about 30 people in an "intentional community," but once they start having kids or new people join, all bets are off. Systems that require all the members to buy in are just not stable.

itazurakko: Fano: Commiesymps on Fark often like to remind us that true communism has never been tried.

Communism doesn't work for the same reasons that Libertarianism doesn't work.

Both work just fine when you have a like minded group of about 30 people in an "intentional community," but once they start having kids or new people join, all bets are off. Systems that require all the members to buy in are just not stable.

Nail on the head. Human nature doesn't permit things to work that way. And I lean libertarian and know that.

The Soviets were interested in "creating a new socialist man" which turned out to be a failure. Notice how ideological purity has faded fast from Mao's China.

outlanderreader: The truth is that, to many young people today, "communism" and "socialism" are just a couple a dem "ism" words and don't really mean anything. You might as well be saying "Protestantism," "Taoism" or "Zoroastrianism" - it would means just as much to these Idiocracy nimrods.


nimrod |ˈnimräd|
noun chiefly humorous
a skillful hunter.
ORIGIN late 16th cent.: from Hebrew Nimrōd, the name of the great-grandson of Noah, reputed for his skill as a hunter (see Gen. 10:8-9).

So, what are you trying to say? You misinterpreted a remark by Bugs Bunny to Elmer Fudd and you use words interchangeably, regardless of their meaning? Are you trying to be ironic?

outlanderreader: The large group comprises people who don't know what's going on but think they do, otherwise known as Farkers.

So you don't know what's going but you think you do?
Sounds like you think yourself in the first two, but you just disqualified yourself from those groups.

LargeCanine: Unfortunately, communist toadies will always be with us. No matter how much historical evidence piles up that communism is a miserable failure, there will always be those who dream of a Just Master rather than personal freedom.

Freedom is hard. Liberty requires of each individual that they make their own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. Some prefer slavery.

I read the article and hold these people who are nostalgic about Communism in contempt.

Nothing new here...hell, even Moses had his problems with the Israelites "pining for the fleshpots of Egypt" while they were wandering through the desert.

Kar98: Naman: Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.

People who think they are sooooooo much smarter than the ones that actually lived under socialism amuse me. Suuuuure, So freaking aorable. Oh, and here comes the semantics game. Let us be clear: communism/socialism/stalinism = all the farking same. It's like sorting crap by flavor. I'm talking about the countries and societies formerly referred to as communist countries, not freaking Sweden.

No.

Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

m2313,

Nope, I didn't disqualify myself at all. You can visit Germany without being a German or New York without being a New Yorker. Likewise, I visit Fark sometimes but am not a "Farker." A Farker is someone characterized by a certain ideology and posting style.

You definitely could be a Farker, though.

outlanderreader: (P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

Indeed

outlanderreader: Nope, I didn't disqualify myself at all. You can visit Germany without being a German or New York without being a New Yorker. Likewise, I visit Fark sometimes but am not a "Farker." A Farker is someone characterized by a certain ideology and posting style.

You definitely could be a Farker, though.

Farkers have a wide range of beliefs and posting styles as far as I've seen. I've seen liberals, conservatives, libertarians etc etc

outlanderreader: Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

YOU were the one complaining that "young people these days don't know the meaning of words anymore, LOL teh idiocracy amirite", paraphrased.

outlanderreader: Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

In fencing, what just occured to you is called a coup d'arrêt.

What Socialism might look like:



/my hometown
//in 1989

What Socialism might look like:

Kar98: What Socialism might look like:



/my hometown
//in 1989

I want to visit the former eastern bloc one day. One reason is that in my head the whole place is black and white like old WWII newsreels even though I know better.

m2313: What Socialism might look like:



What Marx predicted after the State withers away.

Fano: m2313: What Socialism might look like:



What Marx predicted after the State withers away.

That's just goddamn unhealthy.

m2313: What Socialism might look like:

Sweden isn't a socialist country, nitwit. No more than Bismarck's Germany was, and even _he_ instituted the beginning of a capitalist welfare state. First ever worker's comp and retirement schemes? Introduced by Germany, in the 1880s.

*Health Insurance Bill of 1883
*Accident Insurance Bill of 1884
*Old Age and Disability Insurance Bill of 1889

That didn't make Imperial Germany a socialist country.

m2313: Fano: m2313: What Socialism might look like:



What Marx predicted after the State withers away.

That's just goddamn unhealthy.

For some reason that made me laugh harder than anything on fark in quite a while.

"Kar98 Quote 2009-07-04 05:57:00 PM
outlanderreader: Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

YOU were the one complaining that "young people these days don't know the meaning of words anymore, LOL teh idiocracy amirite", paraphrased."

Kar98,

Yes, and you perhaps are amongst those lacking individuals. I was aware of the biblical origin of the word, but I also understand today's common usage of it. A word can take on a new meaning over the course of two millennia, believe it or not.

Fano: outlanderreader: Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

In fencing, what just occured to you is called a coup d'arrêt.

Yes, and his attempt failed miserably. When you check the dictionary in an effort to trip someone up, it helps if you read beyond the first definition of a word.

More like the German """"""""""""""""""""_Democratic"""""""""""""""""""" Republic.

I didn't have to check the dictionary, I was just too lazy to type all out.

Anyway, Kar98, it seems we're on the same side with respect to communism, so I have no desire to fight with you.

Fano: Kar98: What Socialism might look like:



/my hometown
//in 1989

I want to visit the former eastern bloc one day. One reason is that in my head the whole place is black and white like old WWII newsreels even though I know better.

Just before the wall came down we went by train from the Nuremberg area to West Berlin and i'll tell ya , it was just like going from black and white into colour when entering West Berlin from East Berlin . ( the ASSHAT boarder guards and their shiatty attitudes and the german shepherds searching under the train for escapees is another story )

One of the most interesting facts I found out about pre-reunification/pre-7. November Germany is that at least the West Berliners could cross the border into East Berlin and visit there. Despite four years of German study in university (as well as a study abroad there), I never really grasped that fact--it took a West Berliner simply telling me how she somewhat remembers going across the border as a child. The process took hours, but it seems that at least her family was relatively able to do so despite the presence of the Wall and the division of the East and West. I always thought the Berlin Wall and Iron Curtain were basically impenetrable barriers, period.

JimmyCarter'sSecondTerm: Well it seems like half of America wants it too...

Yes, the half that thinks money grows on trees. These are the same people who couldn't sleep for a week after hearing Michael Jackson was dead.

/you know, morans

outlanderreader: Fano: outlanderreader: Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

In fencing, what just occured to you is called a coup d'arrêt.

Yes, and his attempt failed miserably. When you check the dictionary in an effort to trip someone up, it helps if you read beyond the first definition of a word.

St. Rotsky and Muphry's Law should give most farkers pause when typing.

One big reason that pure communism and pure capitalism won't work; Is human nature.

Naman: No.

The mark of the educated mind is to be able to ignore all artificial "facts" to deliver condescendingly terse answers based on ideological arguments made without taking into account the above.

/That's what the one-party state has taught me!

Yeah, see, this is all leftover bullshiat from the Cold War. Everyone that's cursing capitalism and pining for a return to communism... they're just slowly realizing that Communism failed FIRST. It was never a question of which system was perfect, just which one would last longer. Unfettered capitalism leads to just as much failure as the corrupted communism that ran the USSR and eastern Europe. A combination of the two would probably be best, but god forbid anyone suggests that. You'd be called a pinko commie bastard.

outlanderreader:
The two small groups are the people who knows what's going on, and the people who don't know and know they don't know. The large group comprises people who don't know what's going on but think they do, otherwise known as Farkers.



Donald?

Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

I was born in Texas and moved from Austin to Dresden last year. My wife is German and she says that times back before the Wall fell were good. Of course being a member of the Party didn't hurt. Dresden is cool though. Kinda reminds me of Austin.....circa '92 though.

It reminds me how conservatives also idealizes the past, even if it sucked.

HowlingFrog: In a cafe, one kid bemoaned to me the fact that he was earning less money than his western counterparts. I asked him what he paid for rent a month.
90 Marks. That was around fifty bucks at the time.
All utilities included.
I told him that I paid DM600 a month for a two bedroom flat, and that was in a small city. And I paid my own utilities.
He stared at me, unbelieving. Reality, baby.

That sums it up.

Ossis are a plague on this country. It's amazing that even a generation born AFTER the fall of the wall still have the communist mindset.

They can only do their job, one job, and can't change it or help anyone around them for any reason whatsoever as it would require a slight temporary deviation from their set task.

Ever seen a group of Ossi carpenters? One holds the nail, the other holds the board, the next one holds the hammer, the fourth one measures the board, the fifth one announces when it is time to hammer, etc, etc, etc.

They are utterly worthless.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Ever seen a group of Ossi carpenters? One holds the nail, the other holds the board, the next one holds the hammer, the fourth one measures the board, the fifth one announces when it is time to hammer, etc, etc, etc.

They are utterly worthless.

Having been born in East Germany and GTFO as fast as I could, I can not disagree.

Kar98: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Ever seen a group of Ossi carpenters? One holds the nail, the other holds the board, the next one holds the hammer, the fourth one measures the board, the fifth one announces when it is time to hammer, etc, etc, etc.

They are utterly worthless.

Having been born in East Germany and GTFO as fast as I could, I can not disagree.

I hate that it sounded so negative, but they really are awful employees. Some are great people and fun to party with. But holy hell is their view of the world skewed. It's like some of them emerged from a time capsule dated 1983. I truly believe there is not an Ossi on this earth who can multitask.

Even the young ones who are now entering the work force have that mentality. That's the farked up part. They only know Germany after the fall of the wall and they STILL have that view. A lot of the Ossis I've met (this could simply be viewed as anecdotal) are fiercely racist. And not the "damn illegal Turks messing up the economy" that every German gripes about. But the "Jews and Arabs are the devil and should be exterminated" type racists. It's creepy.

Ossis are our version of the American rednecks.

The last time we were planning a trip to Germany I mentioned that I wanted to go to Leipzig as my mom's family were from there (came to the States in the 1890s). My wife, who's Austrian rolled her eyes and biatched about it being a dump when she went there as a kid. I pointed out that I was sure it had changed since reunification to which she snorted that it was still full of Ossis.

(She refuses to believe Ljublijana is any better either)

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: I hate that it sounded so negative, but they really are awful employees.

I know, right? There's not the least bit initiative in them, like jumping up and doing some other task because it's a necessary one. The farking house can burn down, but they weren't explicitly told to use the fire extinguishers, so the farking house burns down. Tell them to print 500 copies of something, and when the printer runs out of paper after 200 pages, they sit on their butts and twiddle their farking thumbs, rather than getting more paper. Tell them to paint a wall, and they'll paint it with the farking tooth brush, because asking for a roller and extension doesn't even occur to them.
It's of course not ALL of them (I do consider myself an exception), but the same way it's not ALL black people from New Orleans being criminals and welfare recipients that are too dumb to get out of a of storm, it's enough for... enough of them are like that create the cliché in first place.