Rose-tinted memories and the long-term effects of culture shock.
I lived in West Germany in 1989 when the wall came down. The Ossis thought of the West as some kind of Schlarafenland (think of Big Rock Candy Mountain), and it took awhile for the reality to set in that things in the free world were a bit more complicated than the comfort of a dictatorship.
I worked in Leipzig (in former East Germany) the entire month of December, 1989, and was back many times in the months to come (mostly Dresden and former East Berlin). In a cafe, one kid bemoaned to me the fact that he was earning less money than his western counterparts. I asked him what he paid for rent a month.
90 Marks. That was around fifty bucks at the time.
All utilities included.
I told him that I paid DM600 a month for a two bedroom flat, and that was in a small city. And I paid my own utilities.
He stared at me, unbelieving. Reality, baby.

Good article, and shouldn't surprise anyone.

As the article puts it, stories of victims are easier to tell.

So yes, often you get two distorted stories, the official dictatorship line about how everything is paradise over there, AND the official outsider line that everyone is permanently oppressed and miserable to the point that they are desperately waiting to be rescued (and will kiss your feet for it afterwards) or wanting to risk their lives leaving.

Problem is, people don't realize that the second "victim" narrative is often as distorted as the first "paradise" narrative. Even in the most repressive places, huge numbers of people just know where to keep their heads down and live in the system, and get by having normal family lives. The people who do escape and tell their horrifying (and true, not denying it) stories are a self-selected group of people, not a cross-section.

And therein lies the key to why people don't just "rise up and overthrow the government" as outsiders often expect them to - they DO have actual things to lose. Then after opening/revolution/reunification/whatever, they hear people telling them that they are delusional for missing their old life, because surely there was nothing good about it, and yeah, it stings and feels like the propaganda it is.

FWIW you can find similar people pining the old uncommercialized China, too. Often they are older, from the rural areas, and amazingly enough, some occasionally go on "nostalgia tours" - to North Korea.

This just in:

When people think things are shiatty, they are going to pine for the past regardless of how shiatty the past was.

Well it seems like half of America wants it too...

JimmyCarter'sSecondTerm: Well it seems like half of America wants it too...

LOLREDSCARE!!1!

JimmyCarter'sSecondTerm: Well it seems like half of America wants it too...

You mean the half vying for the current obama-nation?

However, when it comes to the border guards' orders to shoot would-be escapees, he says: "If there is a big sign there, you shouldn't go there. It was completely negligent."

Typical boot-licker line of thinking.

Anyone pining for the days of Soviet-influenced communist society can head directly to Transdniestria in eastern Moldova. It's a Worker's Paradise.

The inverse happens as well. Right now, the state of culture is shiate. The result is that past culture is being diminished. As my generation passes, the current grumbling about "boomers" is becoming a pervasive denial of all that was great, by people who weren't there and have no alternative to offer.

Begin ...

kashyyk muffdiver loves taco sauce Quote 2009-07-04 02:16:10 PM
JimmyCarter'sSecondTerm: Well it seems like half of America wants it too...

You mean the half vying for the current obama-nation?


This is not a repeat of 1929, the Great Depression.
During the Great Depression, there was a segment of the population that leaned towards communism. I think many of them were in Hollywood. This was a factor in the McCarthyism of the 1950's. The American Communist Party still exists today and I would guess that their numbers have grown some considering they have ties to the democratic party in many ways. See for yourself.

Communist Party USA (new window)

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that socialist Barrack Obama is behind this. Look what you did, Obamabots!

itazurakko: So yes, often you get two distorted stories, the official dictatorship line about how everything is paradise over there, AND the official outsider line that everyone is permanently oppressed and miserable to the point that they are desperately waiting to be rescued (and will kiss your feet for it afterwards) or wanting to risk their lives leaving.

There was also an unofficial story going around about how the West is full of free market unicorns and capitalist rainbows. A lot of people in Eastern Europe got a bit disappointed when the reality didn't match up to their expectations.

Good. They should go back. I have seen enough evidence of East German stupidity...I got more than my fill when I was in the backass end of the world that is Leipzig.

/Inter DaF

Don't you know me? I'm the new Berlin Wall, baby! Try and tear me down!

40oz_A_Knight: However, when it comes to the border guards' orders to shoot would-be escapees, he says: "If there is a big sign there, you shouldn't go there. It was completely negligent."

Typical boot-licker line of thinking.


Makes me think of an abused spouse. May as well be saying "Sure he hits me, but he's a good provider. Next time I'll be more careful not to burn the pot roast."

Well folks,there you have it,slowly and surely the truth is being revealed,capitalism is dying a deserved death,despite colossal efforts are made to continue the charade of endless prosperity and cancerous growth,perpetrated by wall street,the banksters and corporate criminals.

Damnit, atomic-age... I'm too slow.

A lot of people just want to be told what to do and how to think. It's easier that way. This guy sounds like one of them.

Bad_Seed: There was also an unofficial story going around about how the West is full of free market unicorns and capitalist rainbows. A lot of people in Eastern Europe got a bit disappointed when the reality didn't match up to their expectations.

Yep. I guess that's the third big myth.

But even without expecting unicorns, there's a basic question of, is a more or less equal, if bland, guaranteed standard of living better, or total freedom which includes both the chance to get rich AND the chance to starve?

If you're one of the people who ends up worse off (which can definitely happen) after the supposed "liberation," you won't be happy. (Yeah, I realize the people in TFA aren't all those people.)

But in China, there are people who are materially worse off now than they were before all the special economic zones and the skyscrapers and nouveau riche and all of it. Some of the communist programs they relied on have been dismantled or severely cut, but they didn't end up "winners" able to take advantage of the new market systems, so now they get nothing.

You can find people biatching about the opening of Poland, too - lots of the dockworkers who lost their jobs.

There's a "yeah, the government sucked and we had to watch where we stepped, but on the other hand we had a guaranteed 3 square meals a day and a cheap flat and our family was happy" view that's legitimate. For every person languishing in jail for whatever corrupt reason, there's hordes of the "we got by all right, we were smart enough to play the game correctly" people.

Heck, you can see a form of it even in the open free capitalistic countries, when someone complains that the government is stepping on people in whatever minor way, restricting speech or doing unreasonable searches or whatever, there's a chorus that comes up - "well, it's their own damn fault, they should KNOW not to [say whatever] [do whatever]" or "if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't fear the search, dumbass" which all generalizes to "damn hippies!" but it's a similar impulse.

Unfortunately, communist toadies will always be with us. No matter how much historical evidence piles up that communism is a miserable failure, there will always be those who dream of a Just Master rather than personal freedom.

Freedom is hard. Liberty requires of each individual that they make their own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. Some prefer slavery.

I read the article and hold these people who are nostalgic about Communism in contempt.

The Berlin Wall came down when he was 10....Most East German citizens had a nice life.

So he was only 10 when the wall came down, yet has a great sense of history of how awesome life was under communism?

Reminds me of young liberals in America. All they know is Bush, so they think Obama and the Democrats are the greatest thing ever. No sense of history.

How do you separate the men from the boys in East Germany?

Communism!

itazurakko: You can find people biatching about the opening of Poland, too - lots of the dockworkers who lost their jobs.

Ironically those dockyard workers where the ones who brought down communism. Be careful what you wish for.

40oz_A_Knight: However, when it comes to the border guards' orders to shoot would-be escapees, he says: "If there is a big sign there, you shouldn't go there. It was completely negligent."

Typical boot-licker line of thinking.

I see these guys in the redlight/automated surveillance threads like every day.

foxo: Well folks,there you have it,slowly and surely the truth is being revealed,capitalism is dying a deserved death,despite colossal efforts are made to continue the charade of endless prosperity and cancerous growth,perpetrated by wall street,the banksters and corporate criminals.

It is not capitalism that is dying. It is our perverted system of cronny capitalism, culture of entitlements, the idea that government intervention can help the economy, and our phony service sector economy. All made possible because we were able to successfully get the reserve currency status, severe it's link to gold, 9Which is how it became accepted as the reserve in the first place.) then abuse it to the point where nobody will want it.

Once this collapses and we let Free Market capitalism come pick up the pieces, then we might see some improvement. Our current path of Government intervention and crony capitalism is not viable. Didn't work, in the long term, under Clinton or Bush and it won't work for Obama.

/You may not like capitalism and say it doesn't work, but you can't deny that the alternatives work even less.

pathouston22: So he was only 10 when the wall came down, yet has a great sense of history of how awesome life was under communism?

Well, that's actually part of it. He remembers his nice home life and his childhood, because he was TEN. But he will get comments implying that he can't possibly have had a happy childhood, because he lived under Communism. After a while, it grates.

But the point is that various depictions of such countries/government systems can be very one-dimensional, from both the inside (which everyone admits) AND the outside critics (which people often don't admit). Places are portrayed as if people are starving and cringing under boots and only wishing for freedom of death every minute of every day, because that too serves a purpose.

When reality is actually more nuanced.

Fano: I see these guys in the redlight/automated surveillance threads like every day.

Exactly. But because we know it was a Communist regime or an otherwise historically acknowledged dictatorship, we're comfortable with laughing at the people in TFA.

Bad_Seed: Ironically those dockyard workers where the ones who brought down communism. Be careful what you wish for.

Yep. Thought about that hearing a radio piece on them.

Crosshair:

/You may not like capitalism and say it doesn't work, but you can't deny that the alternatives work even less.

I agree that some level of free markets must be used not because I think they are the best way to organize a society but because I believe human beings are essentially animals that suck. The only way we seem to be able to motivate and innovate is through the carrot of greed.

However, I would say that some countries who mix free markets with slightly more regulation than the US are doing the best right now. Think Scandinavia (minus Iceland), Canada, Australia and some (but not all) Western European nations.

The current problem in the US was largely due to the Clinton and Bush era push back of the regulations that helped to stabilize the economy from the Post-War period on (until the regs were removed).

We need to unleash a certain amount of greed and selfishness to get people working and innovating. However, it seems when we unleash too much people just go crazy and bring down the whole system as we have just again witnessed. Basically, we just need the right balance, and as things change we will continually have to adjust that balance. The major problem is when people forget to learn from history and repeat the same mistakes we've already made and from which we should have already learned.

itazurakko: Good article, and shouldn't surprise anyone.

As the article puts it, stories of victims are easier to tell.

So yes, often you get two distorted stories, the official dictatorship line about how everything is paradise over there, AND the official outsider line that everyone is permanently oppressed and miserable to the point that they are desperately waiting to be rescued (and will kiss your feet for it afterwards) or wanting to risk their lives leaving.

Problem is, people don't realize that the second "victim" narrative is often as distorted as the first "paradise" narrative. Even in the most repressive places, huge numbers of people just know where to keep their heads down and live in the system, and get by having normal family lives. The people who do escape and tell their horrifying (and true, not denying it) stories are a self-selected group of people, not a cross-section.

And therein lies the key to why people don't just "rise up and overthrow the government" as outsiders often expect them to - they DO have actual things to lose. Then after opening/revolution/reunification/whatever, they hear people telling them that they are delusional for missing their old life, because surely there was nothing good about it, and yeah, it stings and feels like the propaganda it is.

FWIW you can find similar people pining the old uncommercialized China, too. Often they are older, from the rural areas, and amazingly enough, some occasionally go on "nostalgia tours" - to North Korea.

The last part about China isn't true. As a Chinese, I can tell you that those "New Leftists" are disproportionately young people. Some of them are, as we could expect, people who read about how good life was under communist rule in official textbooks, and believed it all. Others are socially conscious people who do believe that communist China was a better society - less crime, less pollution, less corruption, and a much better social welfare and healthcare system. They argue that these are more important than the wealthier society we have today. I don't agree with that statement, but this is a lot more complicated than the simple brainwashed-people-can't-adjust thing.

We are talking about East Germans here. No analogies should be drawn to any other culture.

I think the underlying nostalgia is more a unspoken desire to have Europe look more like it used to, ie, fewer obvious minorities. As the Muslim population of Europe grows, just as the minority population of America grows, more and more threatened members of the old majorities praise the past. When whites are in the solid majority, everything's okay. In the US, the black population was never more than 20%, while the other groups combined were at most 15%. Now that Hispanics have split off from identifying with whites, suddenly they are the largest minority group. The status quo is in jeopardy. Same with Europe. The declining birthrate among white Europeans, and the rising birthrate among minorities, especially the ones that don't assimilate is frightening to the old guard.

"People are whitewashing the dictatorship, as if reproaching the state meant calling their own past into question...Downplaying the dictatorship is seen as the price people pay to preserve their self-respect."

How ironic that an article accusing millions of people of being brainwashed morons is so ridiculously biased. Making a claim - with actual real-life experience - that the "dictatorship" was not as bad as westerners see it does not make the person an "apologist" who downplays the dictatorship just to feel a little bit better about himself.

40oz_A_Knight: However, when it comes to the border guards' orders to shoot would-be escapees, he says: "If there is a big sign there, you shouldn't go there. It was completely negligent."

Typical boot-licker line of thinking.

maybe, but this stuff is by no means specific to communism

There are communists everywhere in the world, many of them participating in elections. Communism is not equal to dictatorship, and capitalism is not equal to liberty. Italy nearly voted the Communist Party into power in the 1980s. The U.S. only managed to stop that by assassinating one of its leaders. Similar cases in South Africa, Congo, Columbia, etc. People who automatically equate communism with Stalinism are stupid.

this is nothing new - the Kaiser 100 years ago despised capitalism, especially the US's. They actually had plans drawn up to strike the Atlantic Seaboard in a series of raids and invasions.

/good luck with that, Bill
//love, the USN

the further away you get from anything, the more you remember only the good things. no one (well there's always exceptions) wants to dwell on the awful parts, so they drop those memories and only hold on to the fond memories

i have caught myself reminiscing sweetly over a failed long-term relationship. only to be brought back to the miserable reality of the relationship within 2 minutes of seeing/talking to her again.

i find the same applies to many of my past jobs. they sucked then and only now can i fool myself into thinking they were not so bad after all.

mpls55412: the further away you get from anything, the more you remember only the good things. no one (well there's always exceptions) wants to dwell on the awful parts, so they drop those memories and only hold on to the fond memories

i have caught myself reminiscing sweetly over a failed long-term relationship. only to be brought back to the miserable reality of the relationship within 2 minutes of seeing/talking to her again.

i find the same applies to many of my past jobs. they sucked then and only now can i fool myself into thinking they were not so bad after all.

Those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end, we'd sing and dance, forever and a day. We'd live the life we choose, we'd fight and never lose, for we were young, and sure to have our way

LargeCanine: Unfortunately, communist toadies will always be with us. No matter how much historical evidence piles up that communism is a miserable failure, there will always be those who dream of a Just Master rather than personal freedom.

Freedom is hard. Liberty requires of each individual that they make their own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. Some prefer slavery.

I read the article and hold these people who are nostalgic about Communism in contempt.

It always amuses the hell out of me when people stuck in their own little world hold others in contempt for being stuck in theirs.

one of Ripley's Bad Guys: this is nothing new - the Kaiser 100 years ago despised capitalism, especially the US's. They actually had plans drawn up to strike the Atlantic Seaboard in a series of raids and invasions.

/good luck with that, Bill
//love, the USN

That was done in alternative history book form. Read it a year or two ago.

1901 (pops)

WorldCitizen: A lot of people just want to be told what to do and how to think. It's easier that way. This guy sounds like one of them.

You've earned a complimentary 'THIS'. Offer not redeemable in CT, AK and OR.

mpls55412: the further away you get from anything, the more you remember only the good things. no one (well there's always exceptions) wants to dwell on the awful parts, so they drop those memories and only hold on to the fond memories

i have caught myself reminiscing sweetly over a failed long-term relationship. only to be brought back to the miserable reality of the relationship within 2 minutes of seeing/talking to her again.

i find the same applies to many of my past jobs. they sucked then and only now can i fool myself into thinking they were not so bad after all.

This is mostly true. But there 'are' East Germans who are worst off now than in the past. Back then, 'anyone' can have three meals a day at the very least. Now, there are beggars on the streets, alcoholism and people committing suicide because of poverty. The people who believe communist East Germany is better shouldn't be dismissed simply as brainwashed masochists.

Herunar: mpls55412: the further away you get from anything, the more you remember only the good things. no one (well there's always exceptions) wants to dwell on the awful parts, so they drop those memories and only hold on to the fond memories

i have caught myself reminiscing sweetly over a failed long-term relationship. only to be brought back to the miserable reality of the relationship within 2 minutes of seeing/talking to her again.

i find the same applies to many of my past jobs. they sucked then and only now can i fool myself into thinking they were not so bad after all.

This is mostly true. But there 'are' East Germans who are worst off now than in the past. Back then, 'anyone' can have three meals a day at the very least. Now, there are beggars on the streets, alcoholism and people committing suicide because of poverty. The people who believe communist East Germany is better shouldn't be dismissed simply as brainwashed masochists.

Freedom is scary. Freedom includes freedom to fail.

In other words, a cultural case of Stockholm syndrome. Interesting to note, but hardly worth treating as anything more than what it is.

Fano: Freedom is scary. Freedom includes freedom to fail.

This. And it's not like FRG is some sort of ruthless bastion of capitalism. It's not like a lot of countries in South America, where the capital is in the hands of an elite ruling class and a small middle class, while 50%+ of the population lives in squalor.

If anything, I could probably attribute a lot of this to the fact that if you start from a low point in Germany, you're never going to get incredibly rich. The harder you work, the more of it gets taken. Quick! Name three incredibly successful European companies from the last fifty years that started off with basically nothing. Now do the same in the US. Apple, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Wal-Mart, etc. You could name examples all day long.

And that ten year-old kid needs to ask his parents why there were long lines of Trabbies at the Czech border (to travel through to get to Austria). I'm sure he doesn't know.

I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

Nitpicky,I know, but there is a difference.

Cherryl,

You make an excellent point. I might add that the increasing decadence of Western culture also alienates many people from it. Although I despise communism, I can't deny that they did keep decadent Western influences out of the popular culture (however, they were profoundly immoral in other ways).

logruszed: Not understanding the definition of "Socialism" is currently dividing the U.S.

It's been a long time since I read Marx but as I understand it, Socialism is a necessary step toward Communism wherein private ownership is usurped by the state until the Communist Utopia is achieved. Unfortunately the Utopia never comes and you're left with a more or less repressive government supported by a massive bureaucracy. I would have googled it to be sure but frankly I have as little interest in politics as I do in the ramblings of an insane derelict.

/Actually do enjoy listening to insane derelict ramblings

Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.

hurdboy: Fano: Freedom is scary. Freedom includes freedom to fail.

This. And it's not like FRG is some sort of ruthless bastion of capitalism. It's not like a lot of countries in South America, where the capital is in the hands of an elite ruling class and a small middle class, while 50%+ of the population lives in squalor.

If anything, I could probably attribute a lot of this to the fact that if you start from a low point in Germany, you're never going to get incredibly rich. The harder you work, the more of it gets taken. Quick! Name three incredibly successful European companies from the last fifty years that started off with basically nothing. Now do the same in the US. Apple, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Wal-Mart, etc. You could name examples all day long.

And that ten year-old kid needs to ask his parents why there were long lines of Trabbies at the Czech border (to travel through to get to Austria). I'm sure he doesn't know.

I would have to go looking things up, but I'm pretty sure I've read recent studies suggesting that there is more upward mobility in European countries these days than in the United States. Maybe if I get over my current lazy moment I will Google...

Naman: Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.



Commiesymps on Fark often like to remind us that true communism has never been tried.

Naman: Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.

People who think they are sooooooo much smarter than the ones that actually lived under socialism amuse me. Suuuuure, So freaking aorable. Oh, and here comes the semantics game. Let us be clear: communism/socialism/stalinism = all the farking same. It's like sorting crap by flavor. I'm talking about the countries and societies formerly referred to as communist countries, not freaking Sweden.

Kar98: Suuuuure, So freaking aorable

I meant:
"Sure, you could make it work. Soooo freaking adorable."

WorldCitizen: hurdboy: Fano: Freedom is scary. Freedom includes freedom to fail.

This. And it's not like FRG is some sort of ruthless bastion of capitalism. It's not like a lot of countries in South America, where the capital is in the hands of an elite ruling class and a small middle class, while 50%+ of the population lives in squalor.

If anything, I could probably attribute a lot of this to the fact that if you start from a low point in Germany, you're never going to get incredibly rich. The harder you work, the more of it gets taken. Quick! Name three incredibly successful European companies from the last fifty years that started off with basically nothing. Now do the same in the US. Apple, Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Wal-Mart, etc. You could name examples all day long.

And that ten year-old kid needs to ask his parents why there were long lines of Trabbies at the Czech border (to travel through to get to Austria). I'm sure he doesn't know.

I would have to go looking things up, but I'm pretty sure I've read recent studies suggesting that there is more upward mobility in European countries these days than in the United States. Maybe if I get over my current lazy moment I will Google...

I believe you may be correct, I remember reading such an article in The Economist or some such.

The truth is that, to many young people today, "communism" and "socialism" are just a couple a dem "ism" words and don't really mean anything. You might as well be saying "Protestantism," "Taoism" or "Zoroastrianism" - it would means just as much to these Idiocracy nimrods.

With the way modernists have dumbed down education, you have two small groups and one large group in this society. The two small groups are the people who knows what's going on, and the people who don't know and know they don't know. The large group comprises people who don't know what's going on but think they do, otherwise known as Farkers.

Fano: Commiesymps on Fark often like to remind us that true communism has never been tried.

Communism doesn't work for the same reasons that Libertarianism doesn't work.

Both work just fine when you have a like minded group of about 30 people in an "intentional community," but once they start having kids or new people join, all bets are off. Systems that require all the members to buy in are just not stable.

itazurakko: Fano: Commiesymps on Fark often like to remind us that true communism has never been tried.

Communism doesn't work for the same reasons that Libertarianism doesn't work.

Both work just fine when you have a like minded group of about 30 people in an "intentional community," but once they start having kids or new people join, all bets are off. Systems that require all the members to buy in are just not stable.

Nail on the head. Human nature doesn't permit things to work that way. And I lean libertarian and know that.

The Soviets were interested in "creating a new socialist man" which turned out to be a failure. Notice how ideological purity has faded fast from Mao's China.

outlanderreader: The truth is that, to many young people today, "communism" and "socialism" are just a couple a dem "ism" words and don't really mean anything. You might as well be saying "Protestantism," "Taoism" or "Zoroastrianism" - it would means just as much to these Idiocracy nimrods.


nimrod |ˈnimräd|
noun chiefly humorous
a skillful hunter.
ORIGIN late 16th cent.: from Hebrew Nimrōd, the name of the great-grandson of Noah, reputed for his skill as a hunter (see Gen. 10:8-9).

So, what are you trying to say? You misinterpreted a remark by Bugs Bunny to Elmer Fudd and you use words interchangeably, regardless of their meaning? Are you trying to be ironic?

outlanderreader: The large group comprises people who don't know what's going on but think they do, otherwise known as Farkers.

So you don't know what's going but you think you do?
Sounds like you think yourself in the first two, but you just disqualified yourself from those groups.

LargeCanine: Unfortunately, communist toadies will always be with us. No matter how much historical evidence piles up that communism is a miserable failure, there will always be those who dream of a Just Master rather than personal freedom.

Freedom is hard. Liberty requires of each individual that they make their own decisions and accept the consequences of those decisions. Some prefer slavery.

I read the article and hold these people who are nostalgic about Communism in contempt.

Nothing new here...hell, even Moses had his problems with the Israelites "pining for the fleshpots of Egypt" while they were wandering through the desert.

Kar98: Naman: Or, they (the Americans, not the nostalgic East Germans) can distinguish between an economic system and a form of government. Communism and socialism != Stalinism, which is a fascist government + bastardized communism.

People who think they are sooooooo much smarter than the ones that actually lived under socialism amuse me. Suuuuure, So freaking aorable. Oh, and here comes the semantics game. Let us be clear: communism/socialism/stalinism = all the farking same. It's like sorting crap by flavor. I'm talking about the countries and societies formerly referred to as communist countries, not freaking Sweden.

No.

Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

m2313,

Nope, I didn't disqualify myself at all. You can visit Germany without being a German or New York without being a New Yorker. Likewise, I visit Fark sometimes but am not a "Farker." A Farker is someone characterized by a certain ideology and posting style.

You definitely could be a Farker, though.

outlanderreader: (P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

Indeed

outlanderreader: Nope, I didn't disqualify myself at all. You can visit Germany without being a German or New York without being a New Yorker. Likewise, I visit Fark sometimes but am not a "Farker." A Farker is someone characterized by a certain ideology and posting style.

You definitely could be a Farker, though.

Farkers have a wide range of beliefs and posting styles as far as I've seen. I've seen liberals, conservatives, libertarians etc etc

outlanderreader: Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

YOU were the one complaining that "young people these days don't know the meaning of words anymore, LOL teh idiocracy amirite", paraphrased.

outlanderreader: Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

In fencing, what just occured to you is called a coup d'arrêt.

What Socialism might look like:



/my hometown
//in 1989

What Socialism might look like:

Kar98: What Socialism might look like:



/my hometown
//in 1989

I want to visit the former eastern bloc one day. One reason is that in my head the whole place is black and white like old WWII newsreels even though I know better.

m2313: What Socialism might look like:



What Marx predicted after the State withers away.

Fano: m2313: What Socialism might look like:



What Marx predicted after the State withers away.

That's just goddamn unhealthy.

m2313: What Socialism might look like:

Sweden isn't a socialist country, nitwit. No more than Bismarck's Germany was, and even _he_ instituted the beginning of a capitalist welfare state. First ever worker's comp and retirement schemes? Introduced by Germany, in the 1880s.

*Health Insurance Bill of 1883
*Accident Insurance Bill of 1884
*Old Age and Disability Insurance Bill of 1889

That didn't make Imperial Germany a socialist country.

m2313: Fano: m2313: What Socialism might look like:



What Marx predicted after the State withers away.

That's just goddamn unhealthy.

For some reason that made me laugh harder than anything on fark in quite a while.

"Kar98 Quote 2009-07-04 05:57:00 PM
outlanderreader: Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

YOU were the one complaining that "young people these days don't know the meaning of words anymore, LOL teh idiocracy amirite", paraphrased."

Kar98,

Yes, and you perhaps are amongst those lacking individuals. I was aware of the biblical origin of the word, but I also understand today's common usage of it. A word can take on a new meaning over the course of two millennia, believe it or not.

Fano: outlanderreader: Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

In fencing, what just occured to you is called a coup d'arrêt.

Yes, and his attempt failed miserably. When you check the dictionary in an effort to trip someone up, it helps if you read beyond the first definition of a word.

More like the German """"""""""""""""""""_Democratic"""""""""""""""""""" Republic.

I didn't have to check the dictionary, I was just too lazy to type all out.

Anyway, Kar98, it seems we're on the same side with respect to communism, so I have no desire to fight with you.

Fano: Kar98: What Socialism might look like:



/my hometown
//in 1989

I want to visit the former eastern bloc one day. One reason is that in my head the whole place is black and white like old WWII newsreels even though I know better.

Just before the wall came down we went by train from the Nuremberg area to West Berlin and i'll tell ya , it was just like going from black and white into colour when entering West Berlin from East Berlin . ( the ASSHAT boarder guards and their shiatty attitudes and the german shepherds searching under the train for escapees is another story )

One of the most interesting facts I found out about pre-reunification/pre-7. November Germany is that at least the West Berliners could cross the border into East Berlin and visit there. Despite four years of German study in university (as well as a study abroad there), I never really grasped that fact--it took a West Berliner simply telling me how she somewhat remembers going across the border as a child. The process took hours, but it seems that at least her family was relatively able to do so despite the presence of the Wall and the division of the East and West. I always thought the Berlin Wall and Iron Curtain were basically impenetrable barriers, period.

JimmyCarter'sSecondTerm: Well it seems like half of America wants it too...

Yes, the half that thinks money grows on trees. These are the same people who couldn't sleep for a week after hearing Michael Jackson was dead.

/you know, morans

outlanderreader: Fano: outlanderreader: Kar98,

No, I meant the following definition, from Dictionary.com: "Informal A person regarded as silly, foolish, or stupid."

Sort of like a person who superciliously tries to correct someone despite the fact that the person issuing the correction doesn't really know what he's talking about.

Language changes and words do take on new meanings over time. Perhaps you haven't heard.

(P.S. - I don't restrict my use of the word "gentleman" to individuals of high breeding who own property, either.)

In fencing, what just occured to you is called a coup d'arrêt.

Yes, and his attempt failed miserably. When you check the dictionary in an effort to trip someone up, it helps if you read beyond the first definition of a word.

St. Rotsky and Muphry's Law should give most farkers pause when typing.

One big reason that pure communism and pure capitalism won't work; Is human nature.

Naman: No.

The mark of the educated mind is to be able to ignore all artificial "facts" to deliver condescendingly terse answers based on ideological arguments made without taking into account the above.

/That's what the one-party state has taught me!

Yeah, see, this is all leftover bullshiat from the Cold War. Everyone that's cursing capitalism and pining for a return to communism... they're just slowly realizing that Communism failed FIRST. It was never a question of which system was perfect, just which one would last longer. Unfettered capitalism leads to just as much failure as the corrupted communism that ran the USSR and eastern Europe. A combination of the two would probably be best, but god forbid anyone suggests that. You'd be called a pinko commie bastard.

outlanderreader:
The two small groups are the people who knows what's going on, and the people who don't know and know they don't know. The large group comprises people who don't know what's going on but think they do, otherwise known as Farkers.



Donald?

Kar98: I was born and grew up in commie East Germany, and now live in Texas, so you better believe I'm getting a kick out of the morons in that article. Although you only have to travel to Boulder, Colo., or Portland, Ore., to find the same kind of delusional people who have no idea what socialism is all about in reality.

I was born in Texas and moved from Austin to Dresden last year. My wife is German and she says that times back before the Wall fell were good. Of course being a member of the Party didn't hurt. Dresden is cool though. Kinda reminds me of Austin.....circa '92 though.

It reminds me how conservatives also idealizes the past, even if it sucked.

HowlingFrog: In a cafe, one kid bemoaned to me the fact that he was earning less money than his western counterparts. I asked him what he paid for rent a month.
90 Marks. That was around fifty bucks at the time.
All utilities included.
I told him that I paid DM600 a month for a two bedroom flat, and that was in a small city. And I paid my own utilities.
He stared at me, unbelieving. Reality, baby.

That sums it up.

Ossis are a plague on this country. It's amazing that even a generation born AFTER the fall of the wall still have the communist mindset.

They can only do their job, one job, and can't change it or help anyone around them for any reason whatsoever as it would require a slight temporary deviation from their set task.

Ever seen a group of Ossi carpenters? One holds the nail, the other holds the board, the next one holds the hammer, the fourth one measures the board, the fifth one announces when it is time to hammer, etc, etc, etc.

They are utterly worthless.

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Ever seen a group of Ossi carpenters? One holds the nail, the other holds the board, the next one holds the hammer, the fourth one measures the board, the fifth one announces when it is time to hammer, etc, etc, etc.

They are utterly worthless.

Having been born in East Germany and GTFO as fast as I could, I can not disagree.

Kar98: Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: Ever seen a group of Ossi carpenters? One holds the nail, the other holds the board, the next one holds the hammer, the fourth one measures the board, the fifth one announces when it is time to hammer, etc, etc, etc.

They are utterly worthless.

Having been born in East Germany and GTFO as fast as I could, I can not disagree.

I hate that it sounded so negative, but they really are awful employees. Some are great people and fun to party with. But holy hell is their view of the world skewed. It's like some of them emerged from a time capsule dated 1983. I truly believe there is not an Ossi on this earth who can multitask.

Even the young ones who are now entering the work force have that mentality. That's the farked up part. They only know Germany after the fall of the wall and they STILL have that view. A lot of the Ossis I've met (this could simply be viewed as anecdotal) are fiercely racist. And not the "damn illegal Turks messing up the economy" that every German gripes about. But the "Jews and Arabs are the devil and should be exterminated" type racists. It's creepy.

Ossis are our version of the American rednecks.

The last time we were planning a trip to Germany I mentioned that I wanted to go to Leipzig as my mom's family were from there (came to the States in the 1890s). My wife, who's Austrian rolled her eyes and biatched about it being a dump when she went there as a kid. I pointed out that I was sure it had changed since reunification to which she snorted that it was still full of Ossis.

(She refuses to believe Ljublijana is any better either)

Schadenfreude ist die schoenste Freude: I hate that it sounded so negative, but they really are awful employees.

I know, right? There's not the least bit initiative in them, like jumping up and doing some other task because it's a necessary one. The farking house can burn down, but they weren't explicitly told to use the fire extinguishers, so the farking house burns down. Tell them to print 500 copies of something, and when the printer runs out of paper after 200 pages, they sit on their butts and twiddle their farking thumbs, rather than getting more paper. Tell them to paint a wall, and they'll paint it with the farking tooth brush, because asking for a roller and extension doesn't even occur to them.
It's of course not ALL of them (I do consider myself an exception), but the same way it's not ALL black people from New Orleans being criminals and welfare recipients that are too dumb to get out of a of storm, it's enough for... enough of them are like that create the cliché in first place.