gadian: Thing is...all people are not fundamentally equal. Some are disadvantaged from birth - physicaly, emotionally, financially. Some are just a whole lot dummer than others. Some become disadvantaged later. Some of this can be be fixed, some of it can't, even if you throw millions of dollars at it. Its better to not waste the money on a problem that cannot be fixed when you can use that money to help every one else compensate (be even stronger, better) because of those disadvantaged.

missed the point completely, didn't you??

trixter_nl: So your argument that because the court said it, does not make it right.

i didn't say it was right or wrong, i said that if the supreme court says a law is constitutional, the it is. and it remains that way until the supreme court overrules itself, despite what some dude living in amsterdam with little knowledge of the judicial branch's role in government believes.

tomflry7 2009-07-04 02:02:46 PM
"If Fox News was around in 1776 they would be deriding the founding fathers for being LIBERALS."

or witches.

to achieve the level of democracy that they hoped for, without taking into consideration the corruption inherrant in any 'democracy'...would be seen by some as "magic" or witchcraft.

i'm surprised the constitution isn't in quatraines.

Tomflry7: If Fox News was around in 1776 they would be deriding the founding fathers for being LIBERALS.

Liberal-conservative is a nonsensical dichotomy to which I do not subscribe, but last time I checked, "the liberals" were generally for big government, relatively high taxes, and gun control. I'm not sure why you think they are so consistent with the American Revolution.

trixter_nl: pursuit of happiness, results are not guaranteed!

some settling of happiness may have occurred during shipping.
results vary. Stop pursuing happiness if you feel faint or dizzy.
Until you know how happiness will affect you, do not drive or operate heavy machinery.
Happiness is not intended as a substitute for justice.
Store in a cool, dry place. Do not look directly into happiness. Do not combine with nakedness at parties, as this can cause an unsafe reaction lasting 18 years.

gadian: Thing is...all people are not fundamentally equal. Some are disadvantaged from birth - physicaly, emotionally, financially. Some are just a whole lot dummer than others. Some become disadvantaged later. Some of this can be be fixed, some of it can't, even if you throw millions of dollars at it. Its better to not waste the money on a problem that cannot be fixed when you can use that money to help every one else compensate (be even stronger, better) because of those disadvantaged.

there is no guarantee that people will get equal results, the only guarantee for equality is that the law will treat them equal (14th amendment "equal protection under the law"). So the fact that people do not start out equal does not mean that there is any obligation to make them equal. Life is not fair, it is not the governments job to try to make it fair. A guarantee of the pursuit of happiness, does not guarantee that you will be happy.

/the reason it was changed from property to pursuit of happiness is fears over slavery, something that even the slave owning founding fathers did not want to guarantee

Weaver95: I have great difficulty reconciling concepts such as the Patriot act, seatbelt legislation, wall street bailouts, RIAA's perversion of US copyright law and the entire War on Drugs with the philosophies of the Founding Fathers.

If you ask me, we've lost our way. we're no longer 'free'. we've been TOLD we're free, but we need permits for everything and today we're going to have to run a gauntlet of drunk driving checkpoints to get around town. Not to mention the fact that the NSA and DHS are going to tap our phones to make sure nobody blows up the statue of Liberty tonight. So I don't think we're 'free'. I think we decidedly less free than we've ever been at any time before in the history of this country.

just my .02 cents.

Y'know, I understand what you're saying and all, but - as has been mentioned already - when the headline of this thread was written, the native population on this continent was on the road to the slaughterhouse, a large portion of the new population were f**king slaves, and over half the population was, among other things, unrepresented in government by virtue of not being allowed to vote.

So if by "we" you mean "white males," then yeah, I guess may have a point. If by "we" you mean "people in America," however, then we, as a whole, are decidedly MORE free in recent decades than any time before. There are certainly some bubbles in the wallpaper yet - and I'm certainly not defending any of the things you listed - but overall it's been progress. Yes, some of it has required some sacrifice on the part of white males. Suck it up.

/white male
/not guilty
/not selfish

Wraithbane: what_now
Did you have to sleep in a little room with 160000 other dudes in stacks of three?

On my last ship I was in the Engineering Department, our berthing was a room about 50' x 30'. In that 1500 sq. ft. there were 72 of us. And in the news was the whining and moaning about prison overcrowding. We weren't sympathetic.

Oh yes, being well paid to sleep in a room with a density of 0.048 people per square foot 8 hours a day for a few months a year while engaged in a rewarding, challenging occupation is MUCH WORSE than being forced to spend 20 hours a day in a room with twice that density, with no compensation and nothing to do, for the rest of your life.

CheekyMunky: So if by "we" you mean "white males," then yeah, I guess may have a point. If by "we" you mean "people in America," however, then we, as a whole, are decidedly MORE free in recent decades than any time before. There are certainly some bubbles in the wallpaper yet - and I'm certainly not defending any of the things you listed - but overall it's been progress. Yes, some of it has required some sacrifice on the part of white males. Suck it up.

/white male
/not guilty
/not selfish

No, no. Repeat after me: "I'm Whitey, and I apologize."

nicksteel: Bauer: "where is this empire that we have built? I don't see it. Where are these lands that we have conquered??"...nicksteel, 2009, farker.

-remember this day boys...for it will be yours for all time.

wtf!?!

i'll have what your smoking.

"I guess that means that you cannot answer my question. I didn't think you could. Not honestly."

-open you eyes and look around.

there's your short answer.

if you cannot acknowledge that the united states has covertly altered the governments of many, many foreign nations, for many, many years...in order to achieve a better vantage point (MONEY, LAND, WEALTH), then you are a god damned retard ill-informed.

and probably not worth the time to answer in any more depth than that.

-go read a book that the state didn't write for you.

seriously.

Pastor of Muppets: Sygerrik: This is the first 4th of July I am ashamed to be a american. We have handed this country to a statist marxist facist and only God knows if it will be recognizable in fouryears. God bless america, but I am afraid i'll be saying "God protect america" within a month or two. and with sara palin stepping down i dont know if anyone will protect us.

2/10. If you had left out the Sarah Palin remark, you may have had a few bites...

Agreed - I was 99% sure it was a troll, but the Sarah Palin note killed it (especially saying "I don't know if anyone will protect us")

YouWinAgainGravity: At no point in our nation's history has there been some idyllic "golden-era" where everything was perfect. We are much better off than most any other country on the planet. And contrary to what you may think, the founding fathers were not perfect, nor was the time period they lived in. There are many things we can do better, and on many issues, the country regresses from time to time. But we are generally pretty well off. To complain that we are not 'free', or that somehow the founding fathers would spin in their graves at current society, is just ignorant.

THIS: by God, THIS.

It's as good or as bad as we choose to see it. Get out of your basements. Leave all of the red and blue crap for a moment. Clear your head of the need to be snarky. For all of our faults, the United States is still the longest running experiment in personal liberty. There are many worse places to be. There may be a few better, but I don't believe that those other places have been as generally consistent as the United States.

/I feel better
//was still wasted on most of this crowd

YouWinAgainGravity: trixter_nl: So your argument that because the court said it, does not make it right.

i didn't say it was right or wrong, i said that if the supreme court says a law is constitutional, the it is. and it remains that way until the supreme court overrules itself, despite what some dude living in amsterdam with little knowledge of the judicial branch's role in government believes.

I actually know quite a bit about it, where I live at any given point in time does not bar me from knowledge nor does living in America guarantee that someone knows more about it, proof is in the fact that most americans cant even name the 3 branches of government let alone what they do.

Your argument that because the supreme court said that they are not required to follow the constitution but instead can rewrite it via interpretations (such as the first amendment is not a 100% guarantee but rather a suggestion open to the whim of SCOTUS) shows how little you actually know about their role - they are not allowed to legislate from the bench, they are not allowed to modify without ratification any part of the constitution just because they said they can. There is nothing in the constitution that allows them to do this.

The fact that you would bring in where my residency was at the time I created this account shows that you have no valid arguments for the point and are instead trying, weakly, to do an ad hominem attack rather than attacking the actual points made, too bad for you where someone chooses to live does not actually confer some understanding or take it away.

/citizen of the cherokee nation
//American citizen
///studied US law since 1992

We hold this truth to be self-evident: Equality for whoever the fark we choose based on retarded religion, prosperity for few.

/gay
//can't get married
///can't give blood
////can't adopt
//can't do shiat
//totally equal

gadian: Thing is...all people are not fundamentally equal. Some are disadvantaged from birth - physicaly, emotionally, financially. Some are just a whole lot dummer than others. Some become disadvantaged later. Some of this can be be fixed, some of it can't, even if you throw millions of dollars at it. Its better to not waste the money on a problem that cannot be fixed when you can use that money to help every one else compensate (be even stronger, better) because of those disadvantaged.

Let me kindly suggest that you take a few days to read Thomas Hobbes' magnum opus, Leviathan. Please pay especial attention to Parts IV, V, and VI. Be sure to have a copy of the Declaration on one side of the book and a copy of the Constitution (and Bill O'Rights) on t'other. As you read Hobbes, please to highlight the parts that are used in the two founding documents.

Also please to observe how Hobbes defends his notion that "all men are created equal." IIRC, he states five reasons why we are or should be considered such.

Have a nice day!

Sorry guys, I'm just bitter that we constantly tout ourself as a country of diversity and equality yet have a rich and constant history of oppression.

evilgreg: No, no. Repeat after me: "I'm Whitey, and I apologize."

Hardly. It wasn't me that did all that. But that's part of the reason I don't have any guilt about it - I'm not asking for a return to a time when I, and others like me, could enjoy personal luxuries that were dependent on the oppression of people who aren't like me.

Bauer: nicksteel: Bauer: "where is this empire that we have built? I don't see it. Where are these lands that we have conquered??"...nicksteel, 2009, farker.

-remember this day boys...for it will be yours for all time.

wtf!?!

i'll have what your smoking.

"I guess that means that you cannot answer my question. I didn't think you could. Not honestly."

-open you eyes and look around.

there's your short answer.

if you cannot acknowledge that the united states has covertly altered the governments of many, many foreign nations, for many, many years...in order to achieve a better vantage point (MONEY, LAND, WEALTH), then you are a god damned retard ill-informed.

and probably not worth the time to answer in any more depth than that.

-go read a book that the state didn't write for you.

seriously.

I see, you have retreated from your original position of empire building and conquering nations to covertly altered governments.

Nice job.

As usual, my take on the 4th is trenchant and compelling.
Citizen Ted on Independence (new window)

God Save the King!

trixter_nl: ///studied US law since 1992

you were a very poor student then

Cervidanti: We hold this truth to be self-evident: Equality for whoever the fark we choose based on retarded religion, prosperity for few.

/gay
//can't get married
///can't give blood
////can't adopt
//can't do shiat
//totally equal

All choices have consequences. Either you can have courage in your convictions, or you can whine.

CheekyMunky: evilgreg: No, no. Repeat after me: "I'm Whitey, and I apologize."

Hardly. It wasn't me that did all that. But that's part of the reason I don't have any guilt about it - I'm not asking for a return to a time when I, and others like me, could enjoy personal luxuries that were dependent on the oppression of people who aren't like me.

Lighten up, Francis. It's just a quote from Chris Titus.

Cervidanti: We hold this truth to be self-evident: Equality for whoever the fark we choose based on retarded religion, prosperity for few.

/gay
//can't get married
///can't give blood
////can't adopt
//can't do shiat
//totally equal

There is a movement to try to change government, which may actually bring about a bit more equality if that is really what you want. Of course that means that you would not be a protected class in hate crime legislation because its unequal to say if the victim is of a specific group then the punishment is higher.

If you really want to be equal you can try to change the government, the next effort will be in 2010 with the house election. The goal of this movement is to not allow career politicians into office, but rather every day people who do not have a history of being bought and sold. It certainly cant be any worse than what you have seen over the last 30+ years. All candidates that are part of this sign a contract, if they do not do what they say they must quit, the goal is an entire replacement of the house with all new people, no one gets re-elected from either party. This is not a partisan thing, as I understand it they will try to get people from all parties, specifically binding them to do what they say they will do and not promise one thing then not actually do it. They want to get rid of the seniority and horse trading that is all too common in politics today. http://www.goooh.com (new window).

Weaver95: I have great difficulty reconciling concepts such as the Patriot act, seatbelt legislation, wall street bailouts, RIAA's perversion of US copyright law and the entire War on Drugs with the philosophies of the Founding Fathers.

If you ask me, we've lost our way. we're no longer 'free'. we've been TOLD we're free, but we need permits for everything and today we're going to have to run a gauntlet of drunk driving checkpoints to get around town. Not to mention the fact that the NSA and DHS are going to tap our phones to make sure nobody blows up the statue of Liberty tonight. So I don't think we're 'free'. I think we decidedly less free than we've ever been at any time before in the history of this country.

just my .02 cents.

You've been told too often that trivialities like "seat belt legislation" and DUI checkpoints are violations of liberty; they aren't. Those kinds of things keep people free to pursue life and happiness from those who are thoughtless and reckless and that's a good thing.

The truth is that no society can be "free". People as a whole are just too stupid and selfish to allow true freedom. So the best that any government can do is regulate the morons and try not to step on the smart people along the way.

Found this online:

AS I sit here, July 4th, 2009, I think about the state of my country, and dispair. Yes, we fought for and won our Independance 230 years ago, but what have we done since then?

We went from horse and buggy to helicopters. But where are the flying cars?

We went from earth to the moon, but where are our moonbases?

We went from slavery to freedom, but racism (on both sides) continues on.

We went from 13 struggling Colonies to being a SuperPower that fought and won two World Wars halfway around the planet, but half the world hates us.


I walk down the street, and hear the English language being butchered. The Educational System is falling apart, with more attention being paid to how kids feel that to what they learn. Can't let little Jonny feel bad about not knowing basic math... in 8th grade.

People have a feeling of entitlment. They feel they are 'owed' something. The government 'owes' them a check each month. Companies 'owe' them a job. Society 'owes' them another chance after they are caught dealing drugs/stealing cars/whatever.

But these (and other) issues are minor compared to the most pressing issue of all: The Erosion of our Rights.

The Government (and by that, I mean The People In Charge) is slowly eating away at our Rights. There are plenty of examples out there, IF you care to look. But many people don't bother looking, and don't see if they do. A few examples to think about:

The Right to Keep and Bear Arms- The Second Amendment does NOT say that automatic weapons or "assault weapons" (no matter how you define them) are excluded from that Right. And Waiting periods do indeed 'infringe' on that Right.
But all oppressive governments try to disarm their citizens.

The Right to Peacably Assemble. Hundreds of people arrested at the Democratic/Republican conventions in New York recently. They were doing nothing illegal, but were litterally coralled like cattle, and arrested.

The Right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures. Try flying lately? There are dozens, hundreds of complaints of TSA employees 'frisking' women and feeing them up. The TSA says it will break the lock on your suitcase if it wants to search your bag. And of course, they are not responsible of all your valuables go missing....

These are but a few examples of the disintegration of our Rights. Of course, one can argue that they represent necessary steps. But necessary for what? Are they taking away our Rights to help keep us Free?? Does no one see the illogic of that?!?

I'd like to finish with a quote from the Declaration of Independence that was made 230 years ago. (I strongly urge everyone reading this to read that document. Read it, and think about it. It'll only take a few lousy minutes of your time, but might enlighten you.)

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

"...it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government..."

Is now the time?

Think about it.

- A Patriot

ttc2301: still the longest running experiment in personal liberty

The united states is certainly magnificent
Im honored to live here....

but ya know that this is not the first time this experiment has been tried right ? and errr.... we as a people are not particularly "longest running".... pretty much anything right ?

// With grace and luck we WILL be the longest running... still kinda young to claim to be the oldest though

YouWinAgainGravity: trixter_nl: ///studied US law since 1992

you were a very poor student then

because I am right or because I lived in Amsterdam? I am confused now. If you want to insist that SCOTUS is allowed to modify without ratification parts of the constitution I would really like to see a cite for that other than SCOTUS saying "we can, trust us". Why would the ratification section even exist and omit that info if that was actually the way that was intended?

The reality is that I am right, and you are just trying to attack me personally rather than the message that I am presenting. If I am wrong please by all means post something other than a personal attack that supports your notion that the form of government the US has is an oligarchy as you insist that it is (I thought it said republic, which puts the court inferior to the constitution, I could be wrong though, I did live in Amsterdam which according to you immediately negates my knowledge and ability to gain knowledge about the US government).

YouWinAgainGravity: trixter_nl: ///studied US law since 1992

you were a very poor student then


He's actually 100% correct.

They don't constitutionally have the power they claim to wield. But, they are the most powerful branch of the government and the only checks against them are long in between.

Somewhere along the line, SCOTUS deviated in its mission to interpret the Constitution to the letter forcing American society to evolve within its constraints and embarked on interpretation to fit society's evolution.

You live in a country where millions of people still worship George W. Bush like a god.

You live in a country where millions of people would be happy to have Sarah Palin as president.

You live in a country that is so deeply polarized that you can't talk to your fellow citizens about politics anymore.

Just a few things to think about today.

Slartibartfaster: ttc2301: still the longest running experiment in personal liberty

The united states is certainly magnificent
Im honored to live here....

but ya know that this is not the first time this experiment has been tried right ? and errr.... we as a people are not particularly "longest running".... pretty much anything right ?

// With grace and luck we WILL be the longest running... still kinda young to claim to be the oldest though

Add 'currently', shake and review.

/God Bless America anyway

usonia: You live in a country where millions of people still worship George W. Bush Barack Obama like a god.

You live in a country where millions of people would be happy to have Sarah Palin Hillary Clinton as president.

You live in a country that is so deeply polarized that you can't talk to your fellow citizens about politics anymore.

Just a few things to think about today.

See how that works?

usonia: You live in a country where millions of people still worship George W. Bush like a god.

You live in a country where millions of people would be happy to have Sarah Palin as president.

You live in a country that is so deeply polarized that you can't talk to your fellow citizens about politics anymore.

Just a few things to think about today.

I live in a country where I can tell asshats like you to kiss my ass.

usonia: You live in a country where millions of people still worship George W. Bush like a god.

You live in a country where millions of people would be happy to have Sarah Palin as president.

Im comforted by the hundreds of millions of people here who are NOT those people :-)

HAPPY JULY 4 !!

(aint it cute how Kim Jong Il wants to help us celebrate today ?)

Githerax: You've been told too often that trivialities like "seat belt legislation" and DUI checkpoints are violations of liberty; they aren't.

Yes they are.

Those kinds of things keep people free to pursue life and happiness from those who are thoughtless and reckless and that's a good thing.

So by giving government more control over our lives we are becoming more free? What kind of nonsense 1984 doublespeak is this?

The truth is that no society can be "free".

What an evil and outrageous assertion. You have no proof of this whatsoever.

People as a whole are just too stupid and selfish to allow true freedom.

Fine then, allow me to live free and you can create your own little police state with everyone else who wants to participate. Make all the asinine laws you want for yourselves, just leave me be as long as I do not aggress against you.

So the best that any government can do is regulate the morons and try not to step on the smart people along the way.

The best that any government can do is stop creating morons through government schools, overregulation, bailouts, and welfare programs and allow people to learn to take responsibility for themselves and live with the negative or positive consequences of their actions.

usonia: You live in a country where millions of people still worship George W. Bush like a god.

You live in a country where millions of people would be happy to have Sarah Palin as president.

You live in a country that is so deeply polarized that you can't talk to your fellow citizens about politics anymore.

Just a few things to think about today.

you also live in a country where partisan issues are dropped on days like today, the tea parties that are occuring all over are both democrats and republicans. They have been going on for a long time, and some of the people that are listed as right wing conservative media types have been saying this stuff for years about both parties and continue to say both parties are equally bad. Both the democrats and republican parties have been losing members in the last decade or so, and independents are growing, mostly because while people may disagree on some things they really object to what the parties are doing, both of them.

The people are polarizing just not in the way that the two main parties want, they are polarizing away from those parties, believing that both parties have lost their way, and no longer represent the people they claim to be serving. The people are upset over the government believing it is better than everyone else and can do whatever it wants with tax payer money and new programs that increase government power despite the wishes of the people themselves. Currently in America there are more 3rd party/independent voters than there are in either the democrat or republican party.

Cervidanti Quote 2009-07-04 02:30:41 PM
We hold this truth to be self-evident: Equality for whoever the fark we choose based on retarded religion, prosperity for few.

/gay
//can't get married
///can't give blood
////can't adopt
//can't do shiat
//totally equal

Neither do pedophiles and they go to prison for their sexual orientation and are placed on "sex offender" lists. Evolution has proven that they are born that way naturally as it does exist in nature.

Bauer: nicksteel: Bauer: "where is this empire that we have built? I don't see it. Where are these lands that we have conquered??"...nicksteel, 2009, farker.

-remember this day boys...for it will be yours for all time.

wtf!?!

i'll have what your smoking.

"I guess that means that you cannot answer my question. I didn't think you could. Not honestly."

-open you eyes and look around.

there's your short answer.

if you cannot acknowledge that the united states has covertly altered the governments of many, many foreign nations, for many, many years...in order to achieve a better vantage point (MONEY, LAND, WEALTH), then you are a god damned retard ill-informed.

and probably not worth the time to answer in any more depth than that.

-go read a book that the state didn't write for you.

seriously.

Here is a list of some of the lands that the US has conquered and still occupies today:

Aisne-Marne, France
Ardennes, Belgium
Brittany, France
Brookwood, England
Cambridge, England
Corozal, Panama
Epinal, France
Flanders Field, Belgium
Florence, Italy
Henri-Chapelle, Belgium
Lorraine, France
Luxembourg, Luxembourg
Manila, Philippines
Meuse-Argonne, France
Mexico City, Mexico
Netherlands, Netherlands
Normandy, France
North Africa, Tunisia
Oise-Aisne, France
Rhone, France
Sicily-Rome, Italy
Somme, France
St. Mihiel, France
Suresnes, France

So take you farking attitude and shove it up your ass. You don't know shiat about the history of the USA. You probably believe that JFK was killed by a trio of assassins, that the government is responsible for 9/11 and that little green men gave us stealth technology.

You

nicksteel: Bauer: nicksteel: Bauer: "where is this empire that we have built? I don't see it. Where are these lands that we have conquered??"...nicksteel, 2009, farker.

-remember this day boys...for it will be yours for all time.

wtf!?!

i'll have what your smoking.

"I guess that means that you cannot answer my question. I didn't think you could. Not honestly."

-open you eyes and look around.

there's your short answer.

if you cannot acknowledge that the united states has covertly altered the governments of many, many foreign nations, for many, many years...in order to achieve a better vantage point (MONEY, LAND, WEALTH), then you are a god damned retard ill-informed.

and probably not worth the time to answer in any more depth than that.

-go read a book that the state didn't write for you.

seriously.

I see, you have retreated from your original position of empire building and conquering nations to covertly altered governments.

Nice job.

-ok...go no further.

iraq

Nocens: He's actually 100% correct.

They don't constitutionally have the power they claim to wield. But, they are the most powerful branch of the government and the only checks against them are long in between.

Somewhere along the line, SCOTUS deviated in its mission to interpret the Constitution to the letter forcing American society to evolve within its constraints and embarked on interpretation to fit society's evolution.

The judiciary is the most powerful branch? What a ridiculous assertion. SCOTUS takes around 100 cases a year, most of which have no practical effect whatsoever on the lives of the citizenry, or deal with procedural issues. When they do have a "landmark" opinion, it's usually a slight tweak in what the standard currently is. Congress meanwhile has regulated every single aspect of our lives without exception. Besides what has become a general police power via the Commerce Clause, they have the power to impeach the President and strip the Supreme Court of jurisdiction. Congress is by far the most powerful of the branches, and always has been. The framers ("founding fathers," is a little too deity-like for my liking) recognized this in the Federalist Papers among other founding era documents.

nicksteel:
So take you farking attitude and shove it up your ass. You don't know shiat about the history of the USA. You probably believe that JFK was killed by a trio of assassins, that the government is responsible for 9/11 and that little green men gave us stealth technology.

You

JFK was killed by a trio of little green men, sheesh dont you know anything? You couldnt see them because the grassy knoll was green and they blended in well.

The government was responsible for 9/11, they decided the calendar system that we used and if they selected a different one there may not have even been a 9th month in the year. Its so obvious!

We got stealth technology from Nazi Germany, they got it from little green men.

Really, you should do some fact checking on this stuff

trixter_nl: If I am wrong please by all means post something other than a personal attack that supports your notion that the form of government the US has is an oligarchy as you insist that it is (I thought it said republic, which puts the court inferior to the constitution, I could be wrong though, I did live in Amsterdam which according to you immediately negates my knowledge and ability to gain knowledge about the US government).

Article 3 of the constitution establishes the supreme court and gives it jurisdiction over cases related to US law and the Constitution. Marbury vs Madison is when judicial review really came into play and was established. At no point in the Constitution does it state that it must be interpreted according to the literal wording.

Now, the amount of interpretation has always been one of contention throughout US history. Some (like you) want complete literal interpretation, many want them interpreted according to original intent, many want it to be a "living document" and re-interpreted as the times change. Hence why there is always controversy when Supreme Court justices are nominated. But the point is, according to the powers in the constitution, and the precedents that have been set since almost the beginning of this country's history, the Supreme Court has the power to interpret the Constitution as they see fit. And if they make a ruling, whether we agree with them or not, it is by definition "constitutional" until they overturn themselves.

And they have, since the 1800s, ruled that the protection of the First Amendment was not intended to be 100% literal. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater, slander/libel/fraud aren't protected, sometimes security concerns trump free speech, etc.

Weaver95: I have great difficulty reconciling concepts such as the Patriot act, seatbelt legislation, wall street bailouts, RIAA's perversion of US copyright law and the entire War on Drugs with the philosophies of the Founding Fathers.

If you ask me, we've lost our way. we're no longer 'free'. we've been TOLD we're free, but we need permits for everything and today we're going to have to run a gauntlet of drunk driving checkpoints to get around town. Not to mention the fact that the NSA and DHS are going to tap our phones to make sure nobody blows up the statue of Liberty tonight. So I don't think we're 'free'. I think we decidedly less free than we've ever been at any time before in the history of this country.

just my .02 cents.

Over in one post. Nice to see you weren't blinded by the holiday.

vertiaset: Freedom does not mean free to do anything I please.

That is correct. It means one is free to do anything one pleases as long as one does not aggress against others.

In a society the goal is to be as free as possible as individuals without overly infringing on the freedoms of your fellow citizens. This is the purpose of a State.

When I read your whining about seat belt laws, drug abuse laws, copyright laws and the like I am stuck by one thing. You are so free that you have NO REAL IDEA of what it means NOT to be free.

More doublespeak nonsense. War = peace, slavery = freedom, etc.

You have no idea of what it means to live in fear of the three o'clock in the morning knock on the door. You have no idea what it means to be imprisoned for speaking your mind, or worshiping God, or assembling in a public square with others to protest some injustice.

I know of people that have experienced all of those things in the United States. Just because it does not happen as often or to such as degree as in some other countries over history does not mean that anything our government does is justified or that any particularly anti-personal liberty law is okay.

Above all you are free to be ungrateful, you are free to denigrate the men who risked all, and in some cases gave all to grant you this freedom.

Save the nationalist rhetoric for Veteran's Day or Memorial Day.

You are indeed "free". Let us pray that if the time ever comes where these freedoms again need to be defended that YOU are up to the challenge.

They do need to be defended, and you the one telling everybody to just sit there, take their abuse and be thankful for the freedom we have left.

Jefferson Lives - John Adams

are you going to deny that the cia has fueled and/or carried out covert acts of war against other nations?

-really?

iran?

iraq?

korea?

vietman?

and then iraq, again.

-this is just for starters.

we are the cia.

they work for us.

-we have committed these acts.

all of us.

The sentiments of that document are very noble. It's unfortunate that the government abandoned it before the ink was dry.

"I like to see a man proud of the place in which he lives. I like to see a man live so that his place will be proud of him." --Abraham Lincoln

"Patriotism... is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." --Adlai Stevenson

Now let's go blow shiat up and get drunk.