vertiaset: Atheists love it when they can shake the faith of a religious person, they call it "deconversion" and laugh about it amongst themselves. Why? I have no idea.

This is pure fiction save for the last sentence.

serial_crusher: I'm not stubborn enough to say I'm nonconvertible. If you've got a sound argument, I'd like to hear it.

The sad thing is I'm smart enough to know that other peoples' definition of "sound argument"--especially when it comes to religion--is pretty far off of mine...

The problem with a religious argument is that the evidence for a God is cited from a single source that is infallible - The Bible says God exists and is the word of God, therefore it is truth - but if the Bible is absolute truth, why are religious people able to pick and choose what lessons are just and which are antiquated?

The same book that says that a man laying with another man is sinful also claims that disobedient children should be stoned. "Officer, I murdered my child because they did not obey me." Is that going to stand up in court?

I think it is silly to place faith in a single source written by men - who are not infallible - and dismiss reason, accountability, and spend every waking minute praising a God that demands his/her ego is soothed.

I am much happier living this life for me and not trying to make sure an unseen father figure approves of me. And living for my fellow man. I don't think there is a better life beyond this, I think we die and the movie ends - I am not going to harm my fellow man or wish him injury. This is a one time shot. I hope he has the best imaginable life and dies with a smile.

That said, I would welcome a shot on this show - I love to travel. You won't win my soul, but I would love to see Mecca, just for punk rock points.

skinnyartist:
And considering you can't even spell atheism, you can kindly shut up.

Thank you for disregarding everything I said and justifing it on acount of my poor spelling.


Atheists still actively maintain that all atheism means is simple disbelief in gods.

And that is coming from who exactly? Is there some secret body that sets the Atheist agenda? I certainly don't remember voting for them... I know alot of people who use the stricter definition of atheism. I think the attraction of your position is we get to call more people atheists, but many of the aurguments against theism are actually aurguments against all religious beleif.

Somacandra: Somehow I don't think you know the Christian tradition well enough then.

Odd how the vast majority of people I know who are no longer Christian have related being made to feel guilty about questioning faith, often vocally been reprimanded for voicing questions, and similar. I, myself, was.

And I don't believe Christianity has particularly imbued adherents with the want to question as much as tried to quell since...Charlemagne or soon thereafter. Perhaps the traditions are, because there are some fantastic works by early Christians which do question belief, but for much of its history for the common believer this hasn't been instilled.

kleppe: SpaceLord: geom_00: I am a Catholic, and proud of it. I go to my church, I pray, I try to follow the Catholic way.

My Difference, if you are atheist, Jewish, Muslim, Scientology, FSM man, WHATEVER your religion is. I accept it. I could care less if you worshiped satan himself. Your life is your life. Literally, sorry to quote Rodney King, but "Why can't we all get along?"


Matthew 28:19-20

Read those verses.

/agnostic

I've heard more atheists and agnostics on Fark quote scripture than any Christian evangelist. You cry when religion doesn't accept evolution and yet here when geom_00 tries to open up a bit, you're first in line to say "SORRY CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT!"

Tomorrow you will be posting in disbelief at your perceived intolerance of religion that you and your ilk are so motivated to keep in existence. Fark you.

Being the Devil's advocate here, but I think the point of that scripture posting was to point out that geom's worldview does not mesh with his religion of choice

Heh.

My life story basically tells me there is no "God".

Yet I'm an Athiest Pagan who believes there MIGHT be a heaven to assure myself that my sister and grandmothers are there, because they are the only ones fit to BE there.

/Figure THAT out.
//Okay, Heaven's more like a HUGE garden and they're all in the backyard having tea and cookies whenever they feel like it.

Monty845: And that is coming from who exactly? Is there some secret body that sets the Atheist agenda? I certainly don't remember voting for them... I know alot of people who use the stricter definition of atheism. I think the attraction of your position is we get to call more people atheists, but many of the aurguments against theism are actually aurguments against all religious beleif.

The definition is the definition. You have qualifiers such as gnostic atheism and agnostic atheism, better known as strong and weak respectfully.

You are arguing that all atheists claim to be gnostic atheists, meaning they know and claim there is no god. They believe there is no god.

That is not an atheistic position. Atheism alone is an answer to one question. Do you believe in a god? No. Simple as that. If you want to go beyond that question, you have to augment your label that you want to put on us.

I am a gnostic atheist. I believe there is no god. But the vast majority of atheists do not make this claim and simply rest at saying they do not believe in a god. This is absolutely not the same thing as saying you believe there is no god.

Also, please revisit your 3rd grade grammar text book.

wildcardjack: Hinduism is one of the things that made me stop believing in the idea of a god

Same here. When I was young I thought about how people raised Hindu could possibly believe in the many armed gods, then I thought about how I only believed in Santa and god because I was told they were real from a young impressionable age. I was afraid of death and thought heaven was great, then I realized heaven is just what I want to be real because I'm afraid of dying and being nothing. It sounded like something you make up to calm a child down and give hope to the hopeless like the peasants long ago.

What happens when you put a Muslim imam, a Christian priest, a rabbi and a Buddhist monk in a room with 10 atheists?

Well, let's suppose they do this show. Here's what I think will happen.

The first half of the show is in trying to convince Atheists that there is a God. Assuming that they're at least somewhat well-read, it'll likely take a LONG time.

Now, assume it works. Hey, it's television.

The SECOND half of the show is when they get to try to figure out WHICH religion is right. The rabbi will bring out the Torah and start talking about JHVH. The priest will bring out the Bible and point out that he's got the Torah AND additional books in there, and talk about Jehovah. The imam will bring the Qu'ran for Allah and note that the Muslim faith counts Jesus as a prophet - one of the high ones. They will argue with each other for a long, long time, bringing in myth, fantasy, some history...and as soon as history comes up, the whole thing will devolve into a "you did this to my people" thing.

The first part of the show was "religion vs. contestant".
The second part of the show is "religion vs. religion."

More than likely, if any of the religions DO work, it would be the Buddhist one, that embraces the wholeness of nothingness. At least the Buddhist won't blow a gasket if people don't agree with him.

eyehate: "We don't approve of anyone being an atheist. God is great and it doesn't matter which religion you believe in. The important thing is to believe," Soylu said.

We don't approve of anyone being an atheist gay.
We don't approve of anyone being an atheist black.
We don't approve of anyone being an atheist Asian.
We don't approve of anyone being an atheist Mexican.
We don't approve of anyone being an atheist Muslim, Christian, Jewish.

That statement doesn't sound good at all, with any group attached.


That's only because all of those start with consonants, except for Asian. Anything sounds bad when you try to stick "an" before a consonant.

On a non-grammar Nazi note, I'm as atheist as they come. There is no supernatural anything, period. Biological life is complex, sure, but it's not magic. When you die, the electrical impulses in your brain stop firing, and your entire consciousness ceases to exist. As soon as decomposition takes hold and starts turning your brain to mush, even the neurological pathways that made up your personality, memory, etc., are irreversibly destroyed. The idea of a soul is comical, to me anyway.

Actually, I think death is a lot less scary knowing that there is nothing afterward. I never understood the appeal of an afterlife outside of my actual existence, even when it has candy coating applied.

Now, figure out how to download my consciousness into a robot and make me live forever, I'll be the first guy signed up. Of course, there's always the Marvin drawback - I might spend a lifetime sitting around a parking garage, or idly spinning in a mattress marsh. Still worth it.

vertiaset: Atheists love it when they can shake the faith of a religious person, they call it "deconversion" and laugh about it amongst themselves. Why? I have no idea.

I have no idea what you are going on about - but, I had a moment of eye rolling when a great friend of mine admitted she had 'baptised' Christians in their graves because she wanted to make sure they didn't go to Hell.

She was Mormon. Didn't hold it against her.

I guess the Mormons like to baptize you silly bastards in the grave to make sure you see the light. At least she wasn't worried about crashing a plane into a building or tying Matthew Shepard to a fence to die.

So its cool.

"We don't approve of anyone being an atheist. God is great and it doesn't matter which religion you believe in. The important thing is to believe," Soylu said.

My pretentious-ometer is going off the charts.

Sorry but God does not matter. In fact, not believing has made me much less uptight and more relaxed.

I would still be tempted to take the free trip to Tibet, though. Buddhism is pretty cool.

Eudeyrn: That's only because all of those start with consonants, except for Asian. Anything sounds bad when you try to stick "an" before a consonant.

Copy/pasta - my bad.

the_sidewinder: kleppe: SpaceLord: geom_00: I am a Catholic, and proud of it. I go to my church, I pray, I try to follow the Catholic way.

My Difference, if you are atheist, Jewish, Muslim, Scientology, FSM man, WHATEVER your religion is. I accept it. I could care less if you worshiped satan himself. Your life is your life. Literally, sorry to quote Rodney King, but "Why can't we all get along?"


Matthew 28:19-20

Read those verses.

/agnostic

I've heard more atheists and agnostics on Fark quote scripture than any Christian evangelist. You cry when religion doesn't accept evolution and yet here when geom_00 tries to open up a bit, you're first in line to say "SORRY CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT!"

Tomorrow you will be posting in disbelief at your perceived intolerance of religion that you and your ilk are so motivated to keep in existence. Fark you.

Being the Devil's advocate here, but I think the point of that scripture posting was to point out that geom's worldview does not mesh with his religion of choice

So why is SpaceLord free to choose his own beliefs and geom_00 isn't?

eyehate: /hotlinked

Missing: Me on a jetski

skinnyartist: Monty845: If we are to follow the dictionary, an athiest is anyone who does not believe in a diety. But in common usage today, Athiesm typically means the active rejection, and not mere lack of beleif in all dieties, and furhter, all other religious beliefs. No spiritualism, no wicanism, etc...

Wrong, but thanks for playing.

Atheists still actively maintain that all atheism means is simple disbelief in gods.

And considering you can't even spell atheism, you can kindly shut up.

You're playing a semantics game.

eyehate: Eudeyrn: That's only because all of those start with consonants, except for Asian. Anything sounds bad when you try to stick "an" before a consonant.

Copy/pasta - my bad.

I was only trying to preemptively be a dick about it, before someone tried to *actually* use to to derail your valid point. Scroll through any religion thread, and count the number of grammatical arguments. It's astounding how often it happens.

skinnyartist: Wrong, but thanks for playing.

He isn't actually inaccurate. Many people who are atheists do apply the term far more strictly, suggesting a disbelief in the supernatural altogether is necessary. Truly, the term means anywhere from simply a lack of belief in a deity, which I would prefer the term be used in such a way, but to others those religious trappings all stem from a belief in a deity initially; thus, to dismiss a deity should dismiss afterlife, a soul, magic, etc..

But true, most atheists I know would simply keep the term to mean anyone who lacks a belief in a deity.

A side note, atheist was initially a term for anyone who simply did not believe in your particular deity. Thus a Muslim was an atheist to a Christian, whereas a Christian was an atheist to a Muslim. Similar to applying a label of any relationship.

JQPublic: You're playing a semantics game.

Atheism: Not having a belief in a god.

This is NOT the same as believing there is no god. These are vastly different positions.

If you don't understand that, I'm sorry.

Vangor: He isn't actually inaccurate. Many people who are atheists do apply the term far more strictly, suggesting a disbelief in the supernatural altogether is necessary. Truly, the term means anywhere from simply a lack of belief in a deity, which I would prefer the term be used in such a way, but to others those religious trappings all stem from a belief in a deity initially; thus, to dismiss a deity should dismiss afterlife, a soul, magic, etc..

That isn't what he was arguing though. He was saying an atheist means you believe there is no god. And that is not the case.

Outtaphase: Never heard if this one was real or parody. So hard to discern sometimes.

It is serious.

I was shown that exact picture back when I went to youth groups with church.

Was one of the nails in the coffin of my blind belief.

I don't believe in Athiesm! Non-God doesn't exist! You are all sheeple!

Somacandra: Arxane: Everyone's an atheist. Everyone doesn't believe in some religion out there. The ones calling themselves atheists just happen to not believe in one fewer god than the theists.

That is the most idiotic "point" raised in support of atheism yet. First of all, anywhere from 1/3 to 1/2 of the world is polytheist, not monotheistic, and polytheists don't practice other people's religions, but they don't disbelieve them either. Second of all, contrary to most atheists's perceptions, most religious activity worldwide is based in praxis and social identity, not belief, and thirdly, the monotheistic fundamentalists Farkers go crazy over tend to take other religions and their beliefs very seriously--just as demonic (per)versions of their own. This hackneyed and trite "one less god" quip is prima facie evidence that the person who uses it has no actual understanding of the nature of religion and religious people. Stop using it if you want to be taken seriously as an intellectual force.

Hmm. Name-calling, ranting, and adjectives. No actual content.
That's convincing.

Now, if you REALLY wanted ratings, you shouldn't stick with the well-known, safe, POPULAR religions. You wouldn't being in Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Buddhism.

You'd get....oh.....a...

Zoroastrianist,
Southern Baptist,
Jainist, and
an Aboriginal Shaman.


Now THAT'S a SHOW!

skinnyartist: JQPublic: You're playing a semantics game.

Atheism: Not having a belief in a god.

This is NOT the same as believing there is no god. These are vastly different positions.

If you don't understand that, I'm sorry.

Like I said, you're playing a semantics game. The dictionary literal meaning versus contempory implied meaning. If you want to be a Jedi, you go ahead, but please don't try to feign intelligence by claiming to be a Jedi-Atheist...or a Buddhist-Atheist...or a Wiccan-Atheist...or a Pagan-Atheist...because those are bullshiat, too.

Janine Melnitz: Do you believe in UFOs, astral projections, mental telepathy, ESP, clairvoyance, spirit photography, telekinetic movement, full trance mediums, the Loch Ness monster and the theory of Atlantis?

Winston Zeddemore: Ah, if there's a steady paycheck in it, I'll believe anything you say.

/Tibet sounds like the best choice of the four

vertiaset: a sense that they have bested someone else

They have. People who believe in god are weak of mind. Most people should be converted away from religion, it would stop a lot of the drama in this world. Maybe use it to keep the little people in line- (N. Bonaparte)

Eudeyrn: Now, figure out how to download my consciousness into a robot and make me live forever, I'll be the first guy signed up. Of course, there's always the Marvin drawback - I might spend a lifetime sitting around a parking garage, or idly spinning in a mattress marsh. Still worth it.

oh hells no. I woke up from a nightmare just last night of being a consciousness in a box being put away on a shelf....

I don't know about a deity, but I do believe in some sort of spiritual connectivity beyond what science can explain. I don't have a convenient label for my beliefs, and I re-evaluate my beliefs on a moment-to-moment basis. sometimes I like to say that all religions are true -- for the person who believes.

my niece is a very smart girl. as best I can tell, her parents are atheist and raised their children to question the world. she converted to Mormonism. on some level, I envy her belief, and on another level, I'm completely baffled by it.

it's only when religions seek to actively convert that I have a problem with them. embrace the seeker, awesome. but brainwash the masses, nah - that's beyond my comfort zone.

skinnyartist:
That isn't what he was arguing though. He was saying an atheist means you believe there is no god. And that is not the case.

You: because the dictionary says so
Me: there are people, myself included, who use it to mean something different then the dictionary definition

Words change over time, don't tell me I'm wrong just because I don't use the word they way you like.

JQPublic: Like I said, you're playing a semantics game. The dictionary literal meaning versus contempory implied meaning. If you want to be a Jedi, you go ahead, but please don't try to feign intelligence by claiming to be a Jedi-Atheist...or a Buddhist-Atheist...or a Wiccan-Atheist...or a Pagan-Atheist...because those are bullshiat, too.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

An atheist isn't making a claim about the existence or non-existence of a god. They simply do not believe the claims. That is call non-belief.

People who claim there is no god is making an entirely different argument. They are called either antitheists or strong/gnostic atheists.

By your logic, you're saying that all Christians should just be called Christians, and we shouldn't qualify the various different types because it's just "semantics." Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

SynthLord: Isn't Buddhism atheistic, or at best agnostic?

It really depends on how you define god(s).

I wish I were on that show. I would utterly destroy them.

And as usual they would end up asking me "who do you think you are?" "do you know everything?" "do you realize how arrogant you are?" while they're proclaim to know the being who created all, how he/she/it (usually he) did it, what its intentions are, and of course why he hates pigs.

vertiaset: However, don't take my word for it

No need. After a very short stint of belief I converted back to atheism at age 11, a long, long time ago. I don't read the websites cited, consider authors like Dawkins worthless, if not detrimental, and some of my favourite people are deeply religious though we never discuss religion. Where do I slot into your fantasy about 'atheists'?

Monty845: skinnyartist:
And considering you can't even spell atheism, you can kindly shut up.

Thank you for disregarding everything I said and justifing it on acount of my poor spelling.


Atheists still actively maintain that all atheism means is simple disbelief in gods.

And that is coming from who exactly? Is there some secret body that sets the Atheist agenda? I certainly don't remember voting for them... I know alot of people who use the stricter definition of atheism. I think the attraction of your position is we get to call more people atheists, but many of the aurguments against theism are actually aurguments against all religious beleif.

I think I should introduce you to some proper terminology

Gnostic Theist: Basically this means deeply devout, they KNOW there is a god, they are quite explicit about it

Agnostic Theist: This is what I see most Canadians as. They hold religious beliefs, and may even go to church, but they are not devout, and simply take the religion that was handed to them. They are a live and let live bunch, but, if pressed, would posit that a deity would be inherently unknowable.

Agnostic: Simply a person that lives by the thought that a god may or may not exist, that their existance would be intrinsically unknowable.

Agnostic Atheist: Again, posits that you can't be sure if there is a god or not, but tends to lean to the probably not side of things. They don't believe in a god, but they cannot be sure that one does not exist. They mesh with Weak Atheists

Weak Atheist: Seen as kinda of a default state, before religious indoctrination. Weak atheists can be described as: does not believe in a god because they have not been made aware of the existence of one; Agnostic Atheist; or pretty much any for of atheism that does not fall under Gnostic/Strong Atheism.

Gnostic/Strong Atheists: They posit that there is absolutely no god. They are explicit about this.

I'm sorry but I think atheists are the most ignorant out there! At least religious folks have some limited idea of a divine creator, but atheists completely deny it and rely on lolscience.

FTA: "We don't approve of anyone being an atheist. God is great and it doesn't matter which religion you believe in. The important thing is to believe," Soylu said.

Oh, BS. These producers know stuff like this riles up people and thus leads to people watching just to see the chaos that is sure to happen. Which, of course, will lead to large viewing numbers and profit.

If these people really gave a hoot about converting people, they wouldn't make something so personal and complex into a reality game show.

The more things like this happen, the more I think the Third Commandment ('You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.') isn't about refraining from saying, "Oh, I swear to God," as much as using God's name to further whatever vanity project you have in mind, be it; a government position, a war or in this case, a reality show.

The ones calling themselves atheists just happen to not believe in one fewer god than the theists.

This is what I tell my students ( some of whom go to religious schools )
I also send them links to every site I can think of to make them think!!!!! about what they believe

vertiaset: a sense that they have bested someone else and taken something from them which they themselves cannot possess.

Some atheists are assholes. Some atheists are some of the most ignorant and idiotic individuals you may find. However, what was said by you was, "Atheists love it when they can shake the faith of a religious person, they call it "deconversion" and laugh about it amongst themselves," as in all partake in this. Qualifiers are important, because atheists simply are not a singular group being a lack of belief in a deity.

vertiaset: The idea that people of faith are somehow not rational is ludicrous.

People of faith are not rational about one particular facet. Many people are rational about all other aspects of life except those of religion. If Jefferson is called a religious man, so am I, and this is the second to last term I would generally ascribe to myself.

Monty845: skinnyartist:
That isn't what he was arguing though. He was saying an atheist means you believe there is no god. And that is not the case.

You: because the dictionary says so
Me: there are people, myself included, who use it to mean something different then the dictionary definition

Words change over time, don't tell me I'm wrong just because I don't use the word they way you like.

Please read up on the current terms.

Words do have meanings. But they're meaningless unless we agree upon those definitions. Dictionaries and other sources, such as the one linked to, tell us what the general consensus is regarding the definition of a word.

You are deciding to change that definition because it doesn't suit you.

The Massengill is strong in this thread.

vertiaset: neenerist

vertiaset: Atheists love it when they can shake the faith of a religious person, they call it "deconversion" and laugh about it amongst themselves. Why? I have no idea.

This is pure fiction save for the last sentence.

I wish it were fiction.


It isn't fiction if you mean that 2 or more atheists buy it. Most of us just don't give a shiat.

skinnyartist: JQPublic: Like I said, you're playing a semantics game. The dictionary literal meaning versus contempory implied meaning. If you want to be a Jedi, you go ahead, but please don't try to feign intelligence by claiming to be a Jedi-Atheist...or a Buddhist-Atheist...or a Wiccan-Atheist...or a Pagan-Atheist...because those are bullshiat, too.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about this.

An atheist isn't making a claim about the existence or non-existence of a god. They simply do not believe the claims. That is call non-belief.

People who claim there is no god is making an entirely different argument. They are called either antitheists or strong/gnostic atheists.

By your logic, you're saying that all Christians should just be called Christians, and we shouldn't qualify the various different types because it's just "semantics." Sorry, but that doesn't fly.

That's an apples to oranges comparison. I'd prefer to call all Christians 'wrong' and be done with it. Sounds like you want to nitpick over the finer details between atheist and agnostic, and then try to tell us atheists what we think.

I also want to point out that this isn't a semantic game because some of you aren't familiar with the terms used when discussing this subject.

That's like telling a biologist to stop using their fancy words because you don't understand them.

Religion always sparks a he said/she said dialogue...not sure why people go at it since you're not going to convert anyone. Time to look for a more entertaining thread...

skinnyartist: That isn't what he was arguing though. He was saying an atheist means you believe there is no god. And that is not the case.

No, he was arguing common usage by many for atheism includes active rejection of anything religious in nature beyond merely a deity. This is true.

I don't particularly agree with his definition of an atheist, but he wasn't inaccurate in saying some use the term more strictly. Considering I believe he is an atheist as per a comment he has made, this wouldn't be inaccurate to say since he is evidence of this.

kleppe: the_sidewinder: kleppe: SpaceLord: geom_00: I am a Catholic, and proud of it. I go to my church, I pray, I try to follow the Catholic way.

My Difference, if you are atheist, Jewish, Muslim, Scientology, FSM man, WHATEVER your religion is. I accept it. I could care less if you worshiped satan himself. Your life is your life. Literally, sorry to quote Rodney King, but "Why can't we all get along?"


Matthew 28:19-20

Read those verses.

/agnostic

I've heard more atheists and agnostics on Fark quote scripture than any Christian evangelist. You cry when religion doesn't accept evolution and yet here when geom_00 tries to open up a bit, you're first in line to say "SORRY CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT!"

Tomorrow you will be posting in disbelief at your perceived intolerance of religion that you and your ilk are so motivated to keep in existence. Fark you.

Being the Devil's advocate here, but I think the point of that scripture posting was to point out that geom's worldview does not mesh with his religion of choice

So why is SpaceLord free to choose his own beliefs and geom_00 isn't?

Again, devils advocate, but I think that it's that he identifies as someone that has a set of defined values. If he were to say "I beleive in God yadda yadda yadda" but nothing that identifies a denomination, then a mix and match would be possible. Where as Spacelord identified as Agnostic, which is non denominational, it simply means that he is uncertain as to the existence of a god

JQPublic: That's an apples to oranges comparison. I'd prefer to call all Christians 'wrong' and be done with it. Sounds like you want to nitpick over the finer details between atheist and agnostic, and then try to tell us atheists what we think.

No, I'm trying to tell you that if you say "I do not believe in God," you are holding a different position than saying "I believe there is no God."

Because they're different positions, and thus need different terms to define them.

Am I making myself clear?

Here is an awesome lecture by a Standford professor on the relationship between mental illness and religious belief.

Link (new window)

Personally, I believe that it is possible that extreme atheists and evangelical theists can, in fact, co-exist peacefully.

My theory involves Sinfest, somehow.

Nobody who REALLY believes anything cares whether anybody else believes it.