When you have the kind of money her family has (her stepfather is Jerrold Wexler), you're eccentric, not stupid. lol

"Don't get me wrong, I have great respect for, and am deeply indebted to the miners working in coalmines and on MTR projects who risk their lives daily to bring power to our country. I understand they feel threatened by anything that might take away their jobs."

Then please keep injecting yourself with Demerol until you're on the cover of next week's People Magazine. Kthx.

? I guess mining is..maybe bad or..might be good. I don't know. Let's have sex.

She's a celebrity. Publicity arrest without any further consequences is in their contracts.

Why the Dumbass tag?


MTR mining is a nasty practice that horribly and needlessly pollutes vast amounts of land and water.

I accept the fact that our economy still relies on coal as a source of energy, but there are FAR less destructive and wasteful ways of mining it.

Hannah is making a stand for a good cause that she believes in-- She loves America and doesn't want to see large swaths of it needlessly destroyed.

=======================================================


I always found it ironic that those who tend to proclaim their love for America the loudest and most often also tend to be the ones all for turning so much of the actual physical country into a series of toxic cesspools-- all for the sake of a few extra $.

Criminal yet legal?

I give her props for this.

We can celebrity whore this and attention whore that but she is helping more people know what needs to be known. Unfortunately it's big business and big business gets done no matter the consequences.

I don't get the hate here. Her argument is fairly reasonable. And strip mining is a bad practice that can only take place in states where the people are apathetic about their environment.

She is right.

secularsage: I don't get the hate here. Her argument is fairly reasonable. And strip mining is a bad practice that can only take place in states where the people are apathetic about their environment.

C'mon, Fark was the original internet hate machine.

KiesteredBeetle: secularsage: I don't get the hate here. Her argument is fairly reasonable. And strip mining is a bad practice that can only take place in states where the people are apathetic about their environment.

C'mon, Fark was the original internet hate machine.

That's true, but she's not trendy or popular right now. But I guess it's a slow enough news day that we've got to hate someone, right?

WV should just secede from the nation. People there are so insular and provincial they would now anything outside WV existed if it wasn't for Byrd funneling billions of dollars into that black hole.

Riche: Why the Dumbass tag?


MTR mining is a nasty practice that horribly and needlessly pollutes vast amounts of land and water.

I accept the fact that our economy still relies on coal as a source of energy, but there are FAR less destructive and wasteful ways of mining it.

Hannah is making a stand for a good cause that she believes in-- She loves America and doesn't want to see large swaths of it needlessly destroyed.

=======================================================


I always found it ironic that those who tend to proclaim their love for America the loudest and most often also tend to be the ones all for turning so much of the actual physical country into a series of toxic cesspools-- all for the sake of a few extra $.

This. I saw a very sad bumper sticker yesterday:

Drill here
Drill now
Lower cost

I am continually amazed at how short-sighted people are.

Riche: I always found it ironic that those who tend to proclaim their love for America the loudest and most often also tend to be the ones all for turning so much of the actual physical country into a series of toxic cesspools-- all for the sake of a few extra $.

Really? Listening to my liberal brothers, I thought that Obama was against turning the country into a 'series of toxic cesspools. Apparently not. (new window)

I wonder how Daryl feels about replacing coal fired power plants with nuclear plants.

the headline:

Daryl Hannah: Why did I fly to West Virginia? To protest MTR mining, "which is criminal, yet legal." Why was she arrested? Because stupidity should be painful

...therefore, according to MASH, suicide and stupidity are polar opposites

/obscure?
//hopefully not, at least here

kenposan: Riche: Why the Dumbass tag?


I am continually amazed at how short-sighted people are.

Give her a break, she only has one eye.

Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

Yeah, I kinda fail to see where the dumbass tag fits in on this one. She seems to be fighting for a good cause.

But hey, don't let logic get in the way of the wharrrgarbl.

Coal mining deaths soared to a 10-year high in 2006, reversing an 80-year trend of steadily falling fatalities and raising safety concerns as coal production reaches record levels.

Forty-seven miners died last year, more than double the 22 killed in 2005 and matching the number in 1995. The recent spike is the biggest percentage increase in 107 years, according to federal records dating to 1900.

nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

MTR mining kills incredible amounts of wildlife, annihilates the local water table, screws up the natural drainage patterns for the area, and pollutes streams and lakes and totally farks with the local water table. They literally blow the top off a mountain to get to the coal inside and then basically leave a giant sinkhole behind.

The company that primarily does this, Massey Energy, is, bar none, the worst corporation in America. You know that recent Supreme Court case where the Justices rules that if one party in a case has given a judge three million dollars, then that judge should recuse himself? That was a Massey energy case, stemming from a time when the CEO of Massey basically bought a seat on the WV Supreme Court for a golfing buddy by flooding his campaign with 10x the cash his opponent had.

The CEO tried to do the same thing to the WV Legislature (giving $1 million + to hand picked candidates for campaigns that in previous years had involved no more than $25,000 or so) fortunately he picked 2006 for this attempted coup and all his challengers were Republicans. Every single one of them lost.

I came to snark but I can't. Good on her.

/I feel so dirty

nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

*This* is your idea of farm land? Please tell, what have you actually farmed?

Link (new window)

realityVSperception: nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

*This* is your idea of farm land? Please tell, what have you actually farmed?

Link (new window)

"If they flatten more of the area" Did you not understand what that means??????

Magorn: nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

MTR mining kills incredible amounts of wildlife, annihilates the local water table, screws up the natural drainage patterns for the area, and pollutes streams and lakes and totally farks with the local water table. They literally blow the top off a mountain to get to the coal inside and then basically leave a giant sinkhole behind.

The company that primarily does this, Massey Energy, is, bar none, the worst corporation in America. You know that recent Supreme Court case where the Justices rules that if one party in a case has given a judge three million dollars, then that judge should recuse himself? That was a Massey energy case, stemming from a time when the CEO of Massey basically bought a seat on the WV Supreme Court for a golfing buddy by flooding his campaign with 10x the cash his opponent had.

The CEO tried to do the same thing to the WV Legislature (giving $1 million + to hand picked candidates for campaigns that in previous years had involved no more than $25,000 or so) fortunately he picked 2006 for this attempted coup and all his challengers were Republicans. Every single one of them lost.

They just need to complete the process. Flatten the area and make it a place where people can live. They do it all the time in strip mining areas.

this was once a strip mine.

nicksteel: this was once a strip mine.

sorry, photo did not make it.

lamecomedian: Give her a break, she only has one eye.

give her an even bigger break - Vol. II changed that count to zero.

nicksteel: realityVSperception: nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

*This* is your idea of farm land? Please tell, what have you actually farmed?

Link (new window)

"If they flatten more of the area" Did you not understand what that means??????


Yea..it means that you are an idiot. the practice is quite destructive and running a bulldozer over the area a few times does not make it into productive farmland.

Lived in WV for 22 years, still has family that works in the mines and mills...

duckpoopy: WV should just secede from the nation. People there are so insular and provincial they would now anything outside WV existed if it wasn't for Byrd funneling billions of dollars into that black hole.

Actually, alot of Byrd's "boondoggles" can and do save the fed billions of dollars a year...the FBI fingerprint center that he had built in Clarksburg, WV save millions in reduced rent and other costs of doing business (ie rent in WV is a lot lower than in the greater DC area)

Maybe the reason your intelligent, well-read super-amazing friends don't know what MTR is is because you call it "MTR." Call it "Mountain Top Removal," and maybe you won't have such an uphill climb to "raise awareness."

But then again, if too many people knew about it, it wouldn't be so niche, and you wouldn't be able to feel so much more aware than them.

Heh. Farmland on removed mountaintops. Heh heh heh.

Farmland where there's no topsoil. Hee hee hee.

Farming among the toxic tailings ponds. Ha ha ha.

Farming where irrigation water has to be pumped up the side of a mountain. Ho ho ho.

Seriously, stupid shiat like this is why I read Fark. You can't buy better entertainment.

Torgo_of_Manos: nicksteel: realityVSperception: nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

*This* is your idea of farm land? Please tell, what have you actually farmed?

Link (new window)

"If they flatten more of the area" Did you not understand what that means??????


Yea..it means that you are an idiot. the practice is quite destructive and running a bulldozer over the area a few times does not make it into productive farmland.

Lived in WV for 22 years, still has family that works in the mines and mills...


It is quite an honor to be called an idiot by somebody from West Virginia. It's almost like we are family.

I guess that you are just too thick to understand that it would require more than running a bulldozer over the land. No matter, smarter people than you would actually have to do the planning. Strip mines are recovered all the time and with a bit of work, they can become productive. What were you using those mountain tops for before the coal companies came in?? What?? Nothing???

El_Swino: Heh. Farmland on removed mountaintops. Heh heh heh.

Farmland where there's no topsoil. Hee hee hee.

Farming among the toxic tailings ponds. Ha ha ha.

Farming where irrigation water has to be pumped up the side of a mountain. Ho ho ho.

Seriously, stupid shiat like this is why I read Fark. You can't buy better entertainment.

The reason that you do not understand that it can be done is that you lack the intelligence and imagination that has allowed large tracts of land to be reclaimed.

You are also too thick to understand that it would require work and planning to do so.

I never said on mountain tops - I said you would have to flatten the area. Do I need to explain that to you as well??

No top soil?? With a bit of planning, there is plenty of topsoil. Remove the topsoil from the mountain and set it aside. Use the soil beneath that to fill in the low areas and then put the top soil back. They do that very thing in strip mining all the time.

The problem is not that the coal companies are lopping off the tops of mountains. The problem is that the people of West Virginia are either too stupid or too lazy to come up with an alternative solution. The West Virginia govt. needs to enact laws that require the land to be reclaimed. Then the coal company has a choice - if reclaiming the land is going to be too expensive they will not do any mining.

nicksteel: realityVSperception: nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

*This* is your idea of farm land? Please tell, what have you actually farmed?

Link (new window)

"If they flatten more of the area" Did you not understand what that means??????

It means you have flat rock. You can't farm rock just because
its flat. It's also *very* expensive, and the coal companies
aren't going to pay for it.

You still didn't answer my question. What farming experience do you have? What specific crop or animal do you think will
grow there? Show me the numbers for a (legal) crop
that will cover the growing costs and pay for land
recovery while competing with established farms.

I buy about half my food direct from local farmers. They
have spent the last ten years restoring worn out
farmland back into healthy farmland. They started out with
working farms in farm country with access to supply stores
and the infrastructure needed for their business. They
have to charge 50%-100% more than supermarket prices
to make ends meet.

Unless you are willing to pay $50 a pound for potatoes,
I don't see how farming can cover the cost of restoring the land.

Show me the numbers and I'll believe you. But if it was viable
don't you think someone would already be doing it?

/You teach, you teach, you teach!
//Last words of Dr. Weston A. Price

realityVSperception: nicksteel: realityVSperception: nicksteel: realityVSperception: Look for yourself - Mining has turned square miles
of West Virgina into a lunar landscape.



View Larger Map

hardly looks like the moon at all. What it DOES look like is a place that might be habitable. If they flatten more of the area, they are increasing the land available for farming. Sounds like a win/win to me.

*This* is your idea of farm land? Please tell, what have you actually farmed?

Link (new window)

"If they flatten more of the area" Did you not understand what that means??????

It means you have flat rock. You can't farm rock just because
its flat. It's also *very* expensive, and the coal companies
aren't going to pay for it.

You still didn't answer my question. What farming experience do you have? What specific crop or animal do you think will
grow there? Show me the numbers for a (legal) crop
that will cover the growing costs and pay for land
recovery while competing with established farms.

I buy about half my food direct from local farmers. They
have spent the last ten years restoring worn out
farmland back into healthy farmland. They started out with
working farms in farm country with access to supply stores
and the infrastructure needed for their business. They
have to charge 50%-100% more than supermarket prices
to make ends meet.

Unless you are willing to pay $50 a pound for potatoes,
I don't see how farming can cover the cost of restoring the land.

Show me the numbers and I'll believe you. But if it was viable
don't you think someone would already be doing it?

/You teach, you teach, you teach!
//Last words of Dr. Weston A. Price

As I said before, farming does not pay to restore the land. The coal companies restore the land. If you would actually read my posts instead of acting like a complete ass, all of your concerns were covered.

nicksteel:
The reason that you do not understand that it can be done is that you lack the intelligence and imagination that has allowed large tracts of land to be reclaimed.

You are also too thick to understand that it would require work and planning to do so.

Heh. So cute. You left out money. Lots and lots and lots of money. The whole justification of mountaintop removal mining is that it's cheap. You don't dig a mine, you don't pay miners.

I never said on mountain tops - I said you would have to flatten the area. Do I need to explain that to you as well??

Hee hee. The thread is about Mountaintop Removal Mining, and what to do with the aftermath, and you weren't talking about mountain tops? That's hilarious! What were you talking about, then?

No top soil?? With a bit of planning, there is plenty of topsoil. Remove the topsoil from the mountain and set it aside. Use the soil beneath that to fill in the low areas and then put the top soil back. They do that very thing in strip mining all the time.

Oh, keep it up. Remove the topsoil? It's a mountain.



Yeah, have fun up there with your scrapers and dump trucks. I'll wait over here, having a giggly fit.

In the meantime, let's talk about remediating toxic tailings ponds, the expense of pumping water uphill (once nature has already moved it downhill for free), and so on. Then compare those costs to farming on existing, non-polluted farmland. How much government welfare subsidy should these mountain farmers receive in order to offset the costs and make it practical? $20K/year per farm? 50K? As a taxpayer, you're going to be paying something, might as well pick a figure you're comfortable with.

The problem is not that the coal companies are lopping off the tops of mountains. The problem is that the people of West Virginia are either too stupid or too lazy to come up with an alternative solution. The West Virginia govt. needs to enact laws that require the land to be reclaimed. Then the coal company has a choice - if reclaiming the land is going to be too expensive they will not do any mining.

Well, for a lot of people, the problem is that they're lopping the tops off mountains. You don't "reclaim" a mountain once it's gone. Let's use the term "replace", it's much more honest. But you're right, if we legislate that the coal companies replace the damaged areas with parkland, then it would be too expensive to continue. Oh, well. We just go back to removing coal the old-fashioned way. There are plenty of mines in Appalachia, they've just been shut down because blowing the tops off mountains is cheaper than digging for it.

El_Swino: nicksteel:
The reason that you do not understand that it can be done is that you lack the intelligence and imagination that has allowed large tracts of land to be reclaimed.

You are also too thick to understand that it would require work and planning to do so.

Heh. So cute. You left out money. Lots and lots and lots of money. The whole justification of mountaintop removal mining is that it's cheap. You don't dig a mine, you don't pay miners.

I never said on mountain tops - I said you would have to flatten the area. Do I need to explain that to you as well??

Hee hee. The thread is about Mountaintop Removal Mining, and what to do with the aftermath, and you weren't talking about mountain tops? That's hilarious! What were you talking about, then?

No top soil?? With a bit of planning, there is plenty of topsoil. Remove the topsoil from the mountain and set it aside. Use the soil beneath that to fill in the low areas and then put the top soil back. They do that very thing in strip mining all the time.

Oh, keep it up. Remove the topsoil? It's a mountain.



Yeah, have fun up there with your scrapers and dump trucks. I'll wait over here, having a giggly fit.

In the meantime, let's talk about remediating toxic tailings ponds, the expense of pumping water uphill (once nature has already moved it downhill for free), and so on. Then compare those costs to farming on existing, non-polluted farmland. How much government welfare subsidy should these mountain farmers receive in order to offset the costs and make it practical? $20K/year per farm? 50K? As a taxpayer, you're going to be paying something, might as well pick a figure you're comfortable with.

The problem is not that the coal companies are lopping off the tops of mountains. The problem is that the people of West Virginia are either too stupid or too lazy to come up with an alternative solution. The West Virginia govt. needs to enact laws that require the land to be reclaimed. Then the coal company has a choice - if reclaiming the land is going to be too expensive they will not do any mining.

Well, for a lot of people, the problem is that they're lopping the tops off mountains. You don't "reclaim" a mountain once it's gone. Let's use the term "replace", it's much more honest. But you're right, if we legislate that the coal companies replace the damaged areas with parkland, then it would be too expensive to continue. Oh, well. We just go back to removing coal the old-fashioned way. There are plenty of mines in Appalachia, they've just been shut down because blowing the tops off mountains is cheaper than digging for it.

you are either too stupid to understand or you simply are not trying. I have provided an alternative that is workable IF the coal companies want to pursue it. Make it a law and they would have no choice.

OR you can make fun of a suggestion that has worked across the country and then sit around and biatch about what is happening because you are too lazy or stupid to take actions to stop it.

it is a simple solution. I am amazed that some of you don't grasp it.

The coal companies mess up the land, the coal companies should be required by law to restore it. Other states have passed such laws.

nicksteel: it is a simple solution. I am amazed that some of you don't grasp it.

The coal companies mess up the land, the coal companies should be required by law to restore it. Other states have passed such laws.

The problem is you are making sense but this is fark.

TheBigBadCrystallineEntity: nicksteel: it is a simple solution. I am amazed that some of you don't grasp it.

The coal companies mess up the land, the coal companies should be required by law to restore it. Other states have passed such laws.

The problem is you are making sense but this is fark.

my bad!

nicksteel:
you are either too stupid to understand or you simply are not trying. I have provided an alternative that is workable IF the coal companies want to pursue it. Make it a law and they would have no choice.

OR you can make fun of a suggestion that has worked across the country and then sit around and biatch about what is happening because you are too lazy or stupid to take actions to stop it.

What you've done, city boy, is make a silly suggestion. You're still failing to grasp that remediation methods that may work in the flatlands of the Midwest would not be cost-effective in the mountains of Appalachia. As others have pointed out, you know nothing about farming. Your "workable alternative" isn't, and you've ignored the practical objections made simply by bleating "well, it worked somewhere else". As I said, this is why I love Fark - it gives people who know zero about the subject matter ample opportunity to flaunt that fact.

As I said before, you are right about one thing - make it too expensive to continue and it will stop. That's one avenue that is being pursued. I'm glad you support it.

In the meantime, go back to insulting Obama on the politics page. At least you're sort of in your element there.

nicksteel: it is a simple solution. I am amazed that some of you don't grasp it.

The coal companies mess up the land, the coal companies should be required by law to restore it. Other states have passed such laws.

The SMCRA (Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act) already requires the land to be leveled into a plateau or hill.

RoboreR: nicksteel: it is a simple solution. I am amazed that some of you don't grasp it.

The coal companies mess up the land, the coal companies should be required by law to restore it. Other states have passed such laws.

The SMCRA (Surface Mining Control and Reclamation Act) already requires the land to be leveled into a plateau or hill.

That is hardly what I would call restoring the land.

El_Swino: nicksteel:
you are either too stupid to understand or you simply are not trying. I have provided an alternative that is workable IF the coal companies want to pursue it. Make it a law and they would have no choice.

OR you can make fun of a suggestion that has worked across the country and then sit around and biatch about what is happening because you are too lazy or stupid to take actions to stop it.

What you've done, city boy, is make a silly suggestion. You're still failing to grasp that remediation methods that may work in the flatlands of the Midwest would not be cost-effective in the mountains of Appalachia. As others have pointed out, you know nothing about farming. Your "workable alternative" isn't, and you've ignored the practical objections made simply by bleating "well, it worked somewhere else". As I said, this is why I love Fark - it gives people who know zero about the subject matter ample opportunity to flaunt that fact.

As I said before, you are right about one thing - make it too expensive to continue and it will stop. That's one avenue that is being pursued. I'm glad you support it.

In the meantime, go back to insulting Obama on the politics page. At least you're sort of in your element there.

The method I suggest has been tried in areas that are by no means "flat lands".

What you fail to grasp is that my suggestion puts everything in the hands of the coal company. Let them find the solutions. But not you! You want to make their argument for them! That has to be the stupidest thing anybody will see on fark.

I have never posted anything insulting about Obama. Your suggestion that I have done so is just another example of your massive stupidity.

nicksteel:
What you fail to grasp is that my suggestion puts everything in the hands of the coal company. Let them find the solutions. But not you! You want to make their argument for them! That has to be the stupidest thing anybody will see on fark.

I'm not even sure what this means. Is it in English? Maybe try rephrasing it, with less attention paid to trying to read my mind.

I have never posted anything insulting about Obama. Your suggestion that I have done so is just another example of your massive stupidity.

Eh, my bad. I've got you Farkied as a "patriot" with anger issues, so I made the assumption. I'm pleased to observe that my note was correct, however. Don't ever change, it's funnier that way.

El_Swino: nicksteel:
What you fail to grasp is that my suggestion puts everything in the hands of the coal company. Let them find the solutions. But not you! You want to make their argument for them! That has to be the stupidest thing anybody will see on fark.

I'm not even sure what this means. Is it in English? Maybe try rephrasing it, with less attention paid to trying to read my mind.

I have never posted anything insulting about Obama. Your suggestion that I have done so is just another example of your massive stupidity.

Eh, my bad. I've got you Farkied as a "patriot" with anger issues, so I made the assumption. I'm pleased to observe that my note was correct, however. Don't ever change, it's funnier that way.

nothing that you have posted is correct. You know nothing about me or my experiences. You area closed minded buffoon who refuses to even consider a workable plan.

As I said before, farming does not pay to restore the land. The coal companies restore the land. If you would actually read my posts instead of acting like a complete ass, all of your concerns were covered.


The point is that none of what you mention is being done.

The companies are scraping the soil into the nearest ravine
where it either washes into the watershed or is contaminated by mine runoff.

The restoration you are taking about is huge, as in square miles
and the costs are enormous.

The companies can bribe local officials and tie things up
in court until the coal is gone and then sell the
site to a shell company that goes bankrupt and avoid the cost
of cleanup all together. All perfectly legal.

The laws that allow this are at the Federal level. West Va. doesn't get a say in it.

Link (new window)


"The complaint seeks to block the changes in the Stream Buffer Zone Rule which gut the original rule's water quality protections and effectively legalize the destruction of streams in the region's coalfields. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the Office of Surface Mining are named in the suit. Among other things, the rule change:

Exempts valley fills - dumping dirt and rubble from mountaintop blasting into nearby valleys - and other mining activities from the 100-foot protective buffer zone so long as the operator minimizes environmental damage "to the extent possible."
Eliminates the requirement that regulators must first determine that coal mining activities in or next to streams would not harm water quality or quantity.
"The new rule basically allows the bulldozers and backhoes to tear up or pollute miles and miles of headwater streams in the mountains that are the source of drinking water for thousands of people and habitat for vital species," said SELC Senior Attorney Deborah Murray. The change in the Stream Buffer Zone rule will have significant negative impacts on water quality and stream health by condoning mining operations that have already buried at least 724 stream miles and damaged at least 484 more miles in Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia.

The OSM, in issuing the rule change, and the EPA in concurring, failed to consult with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service about potential impacts to threatened and endangered species and critical habitat, as required by the Endangered Species Act. Instead, OSM relied on a 1996 "biological opinion" which said that no coal mining operation anywhere in the U.S. would ever harm threatened or endangered species listed then, or in the future - as long as OSM complied with the requirements of the Surface Mining and Control Act, including the former 1983 Stream Buffer Zone rule."

Its not about what could be done with unlimited resources and money, its about what is actually happening in the real world.


You still havn't answered my question about what you think could be farmed there.

Just for fun, I'll give you land leveled and recovered with local topsoil. You still need local supply stores, transportation, a market, and of course farmers. Given that the feds still pay farmers *not* to grow on existing top quality land, I don't see
how this would work. For starters, farms need a lot of water
which is not commonly found on a mountain top. Show me the
facts to back up your claim.

If asking for specifics makes me an ass, so be it.

nicksteel:
The method I suggest has been tried in areas that are by no means "flat lands".


Such as...?

/I'm honestly curious.

realityVSperception: As I said before, farming does not pay to restore the land. The coal companies restore the land. If you would actually read my posts instead of acting like a complete ass, all of your concerns were covered.


The point is that none of what you mention is being done.

The companies are scraping the soil into the nearest ravine
where it either washes into the watershed or is contaminated by mine runoff.

The restoration you are taking about is huge, as in square miles
and the costs are enormous.

The companies can bribe local officials and tie things up
in court until the coal is gone and then sell the
site to a shell company that goes bankrupt and avoid the cost
of cleanup all together. All perfectly legal.

The laws that allow this are at the Federal level. West Va. doesn't get a say in it.

Link (new window)


"The complaint seeks to block the changes in the Stream Buffer Zone Rule which gut the original rule's water quality protections and effectively legalize the destruction of streams in the region's coalfields. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the Office of Surface Mining are named in the suit. Among other things, the rule change:

Exempts valley fills - dumping dirt and rubble from mountaintop blasting into nearby valleys - and other mining activities from the 100-foot protective buffer zone so long as the operator minimizes environmental damage "to the extent possible."
Eliminates the requirement that regulators must first determine that coal mining activities in or next to streams would not harm water quality or quantity.
"The new rule basically allows the bulldozers and backhoes to tear up or pollute miles and miles of headwater streams in the mountains that are the source of drinking water for thousands of people and habitat for vital species," said SELC Senior Attorney Deborah Murray. The change in the Stream Buffer Zone rule will have significant negative impacts on water quality and stream health by condoning mining operations that have already buried at least 724 stream miles and damaged at least 484 more miles in Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky and West Virginia.

The OSM, in issuing the rule change, and the EPA in concurring, failed to consult with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service about potential impacts to threatened and endangered species and critical habitat, as required by the Endangered Species Act. Instead, OSM relied on a 1996 "biological opinion" which said that no coal mining operation anywhere in the U.S. would ever harm threatened or endangered species listed then, or in the future - as long as OSM complied with the requirements of the Surface Mining and Control Act, including the former 1983 Stream Buffer Zone rule."

Its not about what could be done with unlimited resources and money, its about what is actually happening in the real world.


You still havn't answered my question about what you think could be farmed there.

Just for fun, I'll give you land leveled and recovered with local topsoil. You still need local supply stores, transportation, a market, and of course farmers. Given that the feds still pay farmers *not* to grow on existing top quality land, I don't see
how this would work. For starters, farms need a lot of water
which is not commonly found on a mountain top. Show me the
facts to back up your claim.

If asking for specifics makes me an ass, so be it.

I have the feeling that you couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. You have not understood anything that I have posted. That much is obvious by your stupid remarks in your last post.

I see no point in wasting any additional time with you. It would be like trying to educate a chair.

you would rather sit in your own filth than listen to a plan to clean yourself up. Good for you. It is that sort of drive that has made West Virginia what it is today - nothing.

nicksteel: El_Swino: nicksteel:
What you fail to grasp is that my suggestion puts everything in the hands of the coal company. Let them find the solutions. But not you! You want to make their argument for them! That has to be the stupidest thing anybody will see on fark.

I'm not even sure what this means. Is it in English? Maybe try rephrasing it, with less attention paid to trying to read my mind.

I have never posted anything insulting about Obama. Your suggestion that I have done so is just another example of your massive stupidity.

Eh, my bad. I've got you Farkied as a "patriot" with anger issues, so I made the assumption. I'm pleased to observe that my note was correct, however. Don't ever change, it's funnier that way.

nothing that you have posted is correct. You know nothing about me or my experiences. You area closed minded buffoon who refuses to even consider a workable plan.

You've yet to present a workable plan. All you've done is blather on about how something worked somewhere, and then ignored simple questions concerning your undefined scheme's workability in a mountainous region. You've demonstrated a complete ignorance of commercial agriculture, pretended to read minds, and heaped abuse upon anyone who asks a question or two. Honestly, I couldn't give a shiat about your experiences - it's plain they don't involve the topic under discussion, so why should I? Anyway, you're failing to deliver the yuks at this point, as you're kinda just turning in circles. I'll check back later this evening to see if you've picked up a bit. Try making up some more crap about farming, that'll be fun.

realityVSperception: View Larger Map

I zoomed out several levels, and noticed those gray splotches all up and down the mountain range, well into neighboring states. Each time I zoomed in, it was a strip mine.

Holy fark. Just by eyeballing it, I'd say that 5-10% of the mountainous areas have been altered. That's not cool.

Setsuna: nicksteel:
The method I suggest has been tried in areas that are by no means "flat lands".


Such as...?

/I'm honestly curious.

Ah, a fellow filth sitter.

So am I, bbut he seems to have a problem with specifics.

Good Luck

Riche: I always found it ironic that those who tend to proclaim their love for America the loudest and most often also tend to be the ones all for turning so much of the actual physical country into a series of toxic cesspools-- all for the sake of a few extra $.

This is better than what I typed, so I'm quotin' instead.

Dinjiin: realityVSperception: View Larger Map

I zoomed out several levels, and noticed those gray splotches all up and down the mountain range, well into neighboring states. Each time I zoomed in, it was a strip mine.

Holy fark. Just by eyeballing it, I'd say that 5-10% of the mountainous areas have been altered. That's not cool.


Shocking isn't it. I had to double check the map scale
several times before it sunk in how big these mines are.

nicksteel:
"I have the feeling that you couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. You have not understood anything that I have posted. That much is obvious by your stupid remarks in your last post.

I see no point in wasting any additional time with you. It would be like trying to educate a chair.

you would rather sit in your own filth than listen to a plan to clean yourself up. Good for you. It is that sort of drive that has made West Virginia what it is today - nothing."

Ok you obviously have this pompous attitude toward WV. Pray tell, what great state are you from which, obviously by being from there, makes you a genius and mining/land reclamation expert? Ever set foot on a reclaimed strip mine? Ever set foot on the many parts of WV that are flat and actually have large scale farming operations?

I actually grew up very close to that original google Earth image posted earlier. I've set foot on that actual mine. I should probably also point out that most "Mountain Top Removal" is actually done in "ridge and valley" areas. It's shaving off the ridge line and dumping the top soil and sub-terra into the drainage valley to the side. Reclamation consists of making the mine a smooth grade (not flat), putting boulders in the newly constructed drainage pathways, and spraying hydra-seed on it..maybe plant a few trees which probably won't live anyway. It then takes nature YEARS to truly recover. Truly viable, natural topsoil wouldn't recoup even in our lifetime.

Many strip mines in WV were reclaimed and ended up as shopping centers or subdivisions. That's great. There simply is a shortage of flat land in a lot of WV suitable for that. Which, by the way, is one of the main reasons WV is "nothing" as you stated - not very cost effective to get around such a unforgiving terrain. But, that was a very ignorant thing to say on your part. You know that. While WV does face socio-economic problems (as does EVERY state), it also boasts some of the fastest growing areas in the country. Regardless, if that type of attitude keeps people like yourself from going there...I suppose that's a good thing.

THere has not been ONE strip mine reclaimed into farm land. It's simply not going to work. First, farming is done in large scale on flat land. Why? well the obvious reason is for bulk. In order for it to be cost effective, you have to grow acres and acres. Second, the fragile topsoil doesn't just wash away the first time it rains (it rains a lot of WV, btw). You can't farm large scale on a hillside. Simple as that. Further, how you gonna get water up there when it goes for a while without raining? Make the coal company install pumps from the nearby streams that are probably polluted from the strip mining? The topsoil (which I guess we're supposed to make the coal company sod the land too) would become worthless for farming if not kept moist - that is if it didn't already wash away from the first big rain.

Ok, now tell me how stupid I am. I am from WV after all. But, go ahead and point me to one instance of a past strip mine that is now a successful farming operation...anywhere in the country. For bonus points, point out how the brilliant people and their legislatures in that state made that happen.

I'm not gonna belittle you. I'll show you the courtesy of asking you to back up your posts. Simply saying "it happens all over the country" and "you must be too stupid or lazy to figure it out" isn't gonna work.

realityVSperception: Dinjiin: realityVSperception: View Larger Map

I zoomed out several levels, and noticed those gray splotches all up and down the mountain range, well into neighboring states. Each time I zoomed in, it was a strip mine.

Holy fark. Just by eyeballing it, I'd say that 5-10% of the mountainous areas have been altered. That's not cool.


Shocking isn't it. I had to double check the map scale
several times before it sunk in how big these mines are.

It truly is breathtaking to see it for yourself. Not in a good way. Another story that goes unheard are those of the people that live near those operations. They deal with the tremors caused by the blasting, debris actually landing on their homes and in their yards, the polluted water tables. But, if you use nicksteel's logic, those people are probably just too stupid and lazy to move away from it.

It's tough. I grew up in coal country and have relatives that have made fortunes via the industry..trucking mostly. WV coal puts a lot of food on a lot of tables and some of that coal even goes to provide power for the US. A lot of it goes overseas, btw. Anyone that tries to voice an opinion in opposition of strip mining also has to address the fact that they're essentially threatening the livelihoods of thousands. That's a tough line to tow.

Satchel_Brown: realityVSperception: Dinjiin: realityVSperception: View Larger Map

I zoomed out several levels, and noticed those gray splotches all up and down the mountain range, well into neighboring states. Each time I zoomed in, it was a strip mine.

Holy fark. Just by eyeballing it, I'd say that 5-10% of the mountainous areas have been altered. That's not cool.


Shocking isn't it. I had to double check the map scale
several times before it sunk in how big these mines are.

It truly is breathtaking to see it for yourself. Not in a good way. Another story that goes unheard are those of the people that live near those operations. They deal with the tremors caused by the blasting, debris actually landing on their homes and in their yards, the polluted water tables. But, if you use nicksteel's logic, those people are probably just too stupid and lazy to move away from it.

It's tough. I grew up in coal country and have relatives that have made fortunes via the industry..trucking mostly. WV coal puts a lot of food on a lot of tables and some of that coal even goes to provide power for the US. A lot of it goes overseas, btw. Anyone that tries to voice an opinion in opposition of strip mining also has to address the fact that they're essentially threatening the livelihoods of thousands. That's a tough line to tow.


Thank you for taking the time to post. I picked that photo at random and I just happened to hit close to home to you. I understand the mixed feelings, as I live in MD and half of our electricity comes from that coal. I hate to see the damage, but I can't turn off the electricity either.

I feel your pain with the local pressure/corruption. Here it is waterfront overdevelopment vs construction jobs. What is happening to the Chesapeake Bay as a result is also a tragedy. (But that is another story)

And just ignore nicksteel. His knowledge of farming/mining
has obviously been learned from a couple of games of civilization,
not any real world insight.

Satchel_Brown: WV coal puts a lot of food on a lot of tables and some of that coal even goes to provide power for the US. A lot of it goes overseas, btw. Anyone that tries to voice an opinion in opposition of strip mining also has to address the fact that they're essentially threatening the livelihoods of thousands. That's a tough line to tow.

I'm really surprised that the TVA hasn't been more active in building micro-dams in all of those valleys in WV.

Sure, it may be trading one environmental evil for another, but at least wildlife can thrive in and around a reservoir.

Dinjiin: Satchel_Brown: WV coal puts a lot of food on a lot of tables and some of that coal even goes to provide power for the US. A lot of it goes overseas, btw. Anyone that tries to voice an opinion in opposition of strip mining also has to address the fact that they're essentially threatening the livelihoods of thousands. That's a tough line to tow.

I'm really surprised that the TVA hasn't been more active in building micro-dams in all of those valleys in WV.

Sure, it may be trading one environmental evil for another, but at least wildlife can thrive in and around a reservoir.

Dams have a problem all their own. As water levels rise and fall, vegetation at the waterline grows and dies. The dead matter sinks to the bottom where there is no oxygen. The anerobic bacteria gets to it and produce methane. When the water is released through the generators, the methane escapes, and since it is much worse than co2 as a greenhouse gas, the carbon warming footprint of the dam can be as bad or worse than fossil fuels. Oh Snap!

realityVSperception:

I'm quite aware of the problems going on w/ the Bay. I actually live in Las Vegas now, but I remember hearing and reading about those problems before I left WV.

Yeah whatever about nicksteel. You know it seems like a rational first impression to think.."hey it can be farmland now!" but then when a plethora of reasons are given as to why that won't/can't happen, it's "aw you're just too stupid or lazy to make it happen." blegh.

Dinjin

micro-dams? you mean do that for electricity rather than coal? There are actually quite a few man-made lakes in WV, but their primary purpose is for flood control and obviously recreation. But, electricity in WV is not a problem. Most WV coal goes out of state and even overseas anyways. Assuming you mean build dams for electricity, you also run into the issues of building an infrastructure of power grids and lines to get it out to areas that need it.

If you haven't heard of it, there's a place in WV called Canaan Valley. It's located in the heart of the mountains, but it's essentially a big bowl. It's beautiful, tons of resorts, skiing, hiking, hunting, you name it. At one time, it was slated to become a lake for the purpose of providing electricity to the DC metro area. I have no point with telling you that other than it relates to the dams topic you mentioned.

I'd love to see more lakes though, I do love boating and fishing.

Satchel_Brown: you mean do that for electricity rather than coal?

Yes. I imagine that the construction and operation of dams would be a fairly major boom to the WV economy. It could also spur tourism (boating, fishing, diving, retreats), commercial fishery (stocking lakes) and a real estate boom (lakefront property and the construction boom with it). The state could also tax profits from electricity exports to Virginia, Maryland and elsewhere.

As for the needed power grid infrastructure, that's just more jobs. The infrastructure could also be used for wind turbines, as I noticed a lot of wind up in the passes that last few times I traveled through WV. You could also build a large number of nuclear facilities, since water to drive the turbines is plentiful.

Being so close to so many major cities, West Virginia's location really makes it an idea place for energy production. It is a shame that they've been so fixated on coal.


realityVSperception: As water levels rise and fall, vegetation at the waterline grows and dies. The dead matter sinks to the bottom where there is no oxygen.

If the reservoir bottom is graded prior to flooding, you can mow it. There are special reel mowers that trim the vegetation, which is then sucked out through a pump. The vegetation and water are separated, and the vegetation can then be used for livestock, compost, or dried and then burned in specialized boilers that drive electrical turbines.

Its usually too difficult to do with large scale dams and reservoirs, but I have heard that it's not an issue with small ones.

only one DH pic ? and all this argueing ? back in the day ....

El_Swino: nicksteel: El_Swino: nicksteel:
What you fail to grasp is that my suggestion puts everything in the hands of the coal company. Let them find the solutions. But not you! You want to make their argument for them! That has to be the stupidest thing anybody will see on fark.

I'm not even sure what this means. Is it in English? Maybe try rephrasing it, with less attention paid to trying to read my mind.

I have never posted anything insulting about Obama. Your suggestion that I have done so is just another example of your massive stupidity.

Eh, my bad. I've got you Farkied as a "patriot" with anger issues, so I made the assumption. I'm pleased to observe that my note was correct, however. Don't ever change, it's funnier that way.

nothing that you have posted is correct. You know nothing about me or my experiences. You area closed minded buffoon who refuses to even consider a workable plan.

You've yet to present a workable plan. All you've done is blather on about how something worked somewhere, and then ignored simple questions concerning your undefined scheme's workability in a mountainous region. You've demonstrated a complete ignorance of commercial agriculture, pretended to read minds, and heaped abuse upon anyone who asks a question or two. Honestly, I couldn't give a shiat about your experiences - it's plain they don't involve the topic under discussion, so why should I? Anyway, you're failing to deliver the yuks at this point, as you're kinda just turning in circles. I'll check back later this evening to see if you've picked up a bit. Try making up some more crap about farming, that'll be fun.

wow, I completely under estimated your stupidity. My suggestion does not require a PHD in commercial agriculture. What I came up with was a POLITICAL solution. You just cannot seem to wrap your little head around that can you??

Satchel_Brown: nicksteel:
"I have the feeling that you couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. You have not understood anything that I have posted. That much is obvious by your stupid remarks in your last post.

I see no point in wasting any additional time with you. It would be like trying to educate a chair.

you would rather sit in your own filth than listen to a plan to clean yourself up. Good for you. It is that sort of drive that has made West Virginia what it is today - nothing."

Ok you obviously have this pompous attitude toward WV. Pray tell, what great state are you from which, obviously by being from there, makes you a genius and mining/land reclamation expert? Ever set foot on a reclaimed strip mine? Ever set foot on the many parts of WV that are flat and actually have large scale farming operations?

I actually grew up very close to that original google Earth image posted earlier. I've set foot on that actual mine. I should probably also point out that most "Mountain Top Removal" is actually done in "ridge and valley" areas. It's shaving off the ridge line and dumping the top soil and sub-terra into the drainage valley to the side. Reclamation consists of making the mine a smooth grade (not flat), putting boulders in the newly constructed drainage pathways, and spraying hydra-seed on it..maybe plant a few trees which probably won't live anyway. It then takes nature YEARS to truly recover. Truly viable, natural topsoil wouldn't recoup even in our lifetime.

Many strip mines in WV were reclaimed and ended up as shopping centers or subdivisions. That's great. There simply is a shortage of flat land in a lot of WV suitable for that. Which, by the way, is one of the main reasons WV is "nothing" as you stated - not very cost effective to get around such a unforgiving terrain. But, that was a very ignorant thing to say on your part. You know that. While WV does face socio-economic problems (as does EVERY state), it also boasts some of the fastest growing areas in the country. Regardless, if that type of attitude keeps people like yourself from going there...I suppose that's a good thing.

THere has not been ONE strip mine reclaimed into farm land. It's simply not going to work. First, farming is done in large scale on flat land. Why? well the obvious reason is for bulk. In order for it to be cost effective, you have to grow acres and acres. Second, the fragile topsoil doesn't just wash away the first time it rains (it rains a lot of WV, btw). You can't farm large scale on a hillside. Simple as that. Further, how you gonna get water up there when it goes for a while without raining? Make the coal company install pumps from the nearby streams that are probably polluted from the strip mining? The topsoil (which I guess we're supposed to make the coal company sod the land too) would become worthless for farming if not kept moist - that is if it didn't already wash away from the first big rain.

Ok, now tell me how stupid I am. I am from WV after all. But, go ahead and point me to one instance of a past strip mine that is now a successful farming operation...anywhere in the country. For bonus points, point out how the brilliant people and their legislatures in that state made that happen.

I'm not gonna belittle you. I'll show you the courtesy of asking you to back up your posts. Simply saying "it happens all over the country" and "you must be too stupid or lazy to figure it out" isn't gonna work.

a pompous attitude toward WV?? Are you serious? My daughter's dog has a higher IQ than the average West Virginian. It really doesn't matter what state I am from, almost all of the remaining states have higher average IQs than you will find in WV.

It is obvious that you do not understand the point I was trying to make and I doubt if you ever will. I don't think I can dumb it down enough for you.

What you call reclamation is not what I proposed. Your idea of reclamation is what happens when you allow people from WV define reclamation. Real reclamation puts the top soil back, plants trees, grass and bushes that will survive. In fact, if they do not survive, the coal company would be required to replant.

To understand what I am trying to tell you, you would have to expand your mind beyond what you have experienced and imagine a state where the legislature is not made up of inbred hillbillies but by people who can come up with solid laws and requirements.

nicksteel: T What were you using those mountain tops for before the coal companies came in?? What?? Nothing???

So we have to exploit every inch of nature? Nature was 'doing' something with it. It was maintaining an ecosystem.

There it is. Back under the bridge you go. Thanks for playing.

nicksteel:
a pompous attitude toward WV?? Are you serious? My daughter's dog has a higher IQ than the average West Virginian. It really doesn't matter what state I am from, almost all of the remaining states have higher average IQs than you will find in WV.

Satchel_Brown: There it is. Back under the bridge you go. Thanks for playing.

Damn YOUUUUUUUU...

nicksteel: Satchel_Brown: nicksteel:
"I have the feeling that you couldn't pour water out of a boot with instructions printed on the heel. You have not understood anything that I have posted. That much is obvious by your stupid remarks in your last post.

I see no point in wasting any additional time with you. It would be like trying to educate a chair.

you would rather sit in your own filth than listen to a plan to clean yourself up. Good for you. It is that sort of drive that has made West Virginia what it is today - nothing."

Ok you obviously have this pompous attitude toward WV. Pray tell, what great state are you from which, obviously by being from there, makes you a genius and mining/land reclamation expert? Ever set foot on a reclaimed strip mine? Ever set foot on the many parts of WV that are flat and actually have large scale farming operations?

I actually grew up very close to that original google Earth image posted earlier. I've set foot on that actual mine. I should probably also point out that most "Mountain Top Removal" is actually done in "ridge and valley" areas. It's shaving off the ridge line and dumping the top soil and sub-terra into the drainage valley to the side. Reclamation consists of making the mine a smooth grade (not flat), putting boulders in the newly constructed drainage pathways, and spraying hydra-seed on it..maybe plant a few trees which probably won't live anyway. It then takes nature YEARS to truly recover. Truly viable, natural topsoil wouldn't recoup even in our lifetime.

Many strip mines in WV were reclaimed and ended up as shopping centers or subdivisions. That's great. There simply is a shortage of flat land in a lot of WV suitable for that. Which, by the way, is one of the main reasons WV is "nothing" as you stated - not very cost effective to get around such a unforgiving terrain. But, that was a very ignorant thing to say on your part. You know that. While WV does face socio-economic problems (as does EVERY state), it also boasts some of the fastest growing areas in the country. Regardless, if that type of attitude keeps people like yourself from going there...I suppose that's a good thing.

THere has not been ONE strip mine reclaimed into farm land. It's simply not going to work. First, farming is done in large scale on flat land. Why? well the obvious reason is for bulk. In order for it to be cost effective, you have to grow acres and acres. Second, the fragile topsoil doesn't just wash away the first time it rains (it rains a lot of WV, btw). You can't farm large scale on a hillside. Simple as that. Further, how you gonna get water up there when it goes for a while without raining? Make the coal company install pumps from the nearby streams that are probably polluted from the strip mining? The topsoil (which I guess we're supposed to make the coal company sod the land too) would become worthless for farming if not kept moist - that is if it didn't already wash away from the first big rain.

Ok, now tell me how stupid I am. I am from WV after all. But, go ahead and point me to one instance of a past strip mine that is now a successful farming operation...anywhere in the country. For bonus points, point out how the brilliant people and their legislatures in that state made that happen.

I'm not gonna belittle you. I'll show you the courtesy of asking you to back up your posts. Simply saying "it happens all over the country" and "you must be too stupid or lazy to figure it out" isn't gonna work.

a pompous attitude toward WV?? Are you serious? My daughter's dog has a higher IQ than the average West Virginian. It really doesn't matter what state I am from, almost all of the remaining states have higher average IQs than you will find in WV.

It is obvious that you do not understand the point I was trying to make and I doubt if you ever will. I don't think I can dumb it down enough for you.

What you call reclamation is not what I proposed. Your idea of reclamation is what happens when you allow people from WV define reclamation. Real reclamation pu ...

Great. You've bred an offspring. Great news. Hopefully you're instilling those admirable stereotyping skills of yours.

You're clearly a pompous ass. You don't think calling people from another state stupid makes you pompous? Unbelievable. Inbred hillbillies..never head that one before.

Just to play your stupid game about intelligence, I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that I have WAAY more education than you. ;P I can tell I'm much smarter than you. :)

Setsuna: Satchel_Brown: There it is. Back under the bridge you go. Thanks for playing.

Damn YOUUUUUUUU...

Didn't mean to steal your thunder there. Trolling's getting to the point to where it's just the norm. It's becoming a lost art form.

Satchel_Brown: Setsuna: Satchel_Brown: There it is. Back under the bridge you go. Thanks for playing.

Damn YOUUUUUUUU...

Didn't mean to steal your thunder there. Trolling's getting to the point to where it's just the norm. It's becoming a lost art form.

Nah. You're fine. I completely agree with you in regards to Trolling. Every person now acts like a douche and thinks that he is trolling.

TripSixes: nicksteel: T What were you using those mountain tops for before the coal companies came in?? What?? Nothing???

So we have to exploit every inch of nature? Nature was 'doing' something with it. It was maintaining an ecosystem.

I never said that we should exploit every inch of nature. That was a result of your own lack of intelligence.

Satchel_Brown: nicksteel: Satchel_Brown: nicksteel:

Great. You've bred an offspring. Great news. Hopefully you're instilling those admirable stereotyping skills of yours.

You're clearly a pompous ass. You don't think calling people from another state stupid makes you pompous? Unbelievable. Inbred hillbillies..never head that one before.

Just to play your stupid game about intelligence, I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that I have WAAY more education than you. ;P I can tell I'm much smarter than you. :)

DO you really think that I am the only person who thinks that people from WV are inbred, stupid hillbillies?

Do you know this West Virginian??


There is nothing pompous about calling people from WV stupid. It is simply the ability to recognize a simple fact and then verbalizing it.

As for you pathetic personal attacks - they mean nothing to me. Did your wife/mother tell you that you were funny??

No, your mom told me I was funny. My personal attacks do mean something to you. I bet you're crying right now as you post!

Ok that's a guy holding snakes. I suppose someone could do that in WV, but nowhere else in the world. Well played.

If you wanna tell me where you're from, I'll find some nutjob from there for you. How come you're the only one that gets to play, turd?

Dinjiin: Satchel_Brown: you mean do that for electricity rather than coal?


As for the needed power grid infrastructure, that's just more jobs. The infrastructure could also be used for wind turbines, as I noticed a lot of wind up in the passes that last few times I traveled through WV. You could also build a large number of nuclear facilities, since water to drive the turbines is plentiful.

Getting the components for a nuclear plant into the mountains would be a bit tricky. The pressure containment vessel in particular is generally a very large chunk of metal. Typically it is barged in, which is one reason you usually find plants near
navigable waterways. TVA does have 6 nuclear plants.

Looks like they are trying to restart construction on two unfinished ones.

Link (new window)

Three Mile Island stopped new plants everywhere in the US,
not just WV.



realityVSperception: As water levels rise and fall, vegetation at the waterline grows and dies. The dead matter sinks to the bottom where there is no oxygen.

If the reservoir bottom is graded prior to flooding, you can mow it. There are special reel mowers that trim the vegetation, which is then sucked out through a pump. The vegetation and water are separated, and the vegetation can then be used for livestock, compost, or dried and then burned in specialized boilers that drive electrical turbines.

Its usually too difficult to do with large scale dams and reservoirs, but I have heard that it's not an issue with small ones.


The more you know. I'm picturing a scuba diver riding around on a John Deere tractor at the bottom of a lake. Thanks for the laugh.

duckpoopy: WV should just secede from the nation. People there are so insular and provincial they would now anything outside WV existed if it wasn't for Byrd funneling billions of dollars into that black hole.



Only this guy could go to Hollywood, and when someone asks where he is from, he says "Boone County" with no further explanation.

nicksteel: it is a simple solution. I am amazed that some of you don't grasp it.

The coal companies mess up the land, the coal companies should be required by law to restore it. Other states have passed such laws.

The problem is that the legislature, is, and always has been, in the the pocket of coal barons.

realityVSperception: Getting the components for a nuclear plant into the mountains would be a bit tricky.

The new Westinghouse AP1000 is prefabbed in segments that can be loaded onto a barge. You could easily navigate it up the Kanawha River, at least to Deepwater, before you hit shallow water. Coming in from the north, you could probably navigate the Monongahela River to Fairmont, if not further.

Dinjiin: The new Westinghouse AP1000 is prefabbed in segments that can be loaded onto a barge. You could easily navigate it up the Kanawha River, at least to Deepwater, before you hit shallow water. Coming in from the north, you could probably navigate the Monongahela River to Fairmont, if not further.

Interesting. Got to admit Google satellite view is great for
looking at this stuff. It looks like you have put some thought
into this. The mechanics of what you have proposed do look
possible.

A couple of questions since I don't know the area-

It looks like there already are several dams on those rivers.
Are they for power or to manage navigation? They look like
they have locks for barges. I'm assuming coal barges are the primary traffic.

How many viable dam sites are left? If new dams are deep enough
to generate enough pressure for power, won't you lose the ability
to navigate around them?

Apparently my nuclear knowledge is out of date. My Dad worked for
Combustion Engineering designing/analyzing the safety injection
system for their System 80 and after 3MI he did a lot
of travel supporting CE plants still under construction.
Most of what I know I got from him and is about the plants from
that era. So I probably know just enough to say something
really stupid about modern ones. Feel free to correct my
ignorance when I do.

My question is- Why try to break ground for a new site when
it is cheaper to add plants at existing sites? You don't
need to add a whole lot of plants to add a lot of power
to the grid. If we got a dozen new plants started it
would amaze me, and I think you could site those
without heading into the WV wilderness.

And then there is the law of unintended consequences. If you
put in cheap nuclear power, won't the primary
consumer be local mines? It could just end up
encouraging even more mining for export markets, no?

realityVSperception: It looks like there already are several dams on those rivers. Are they for power or to manage navigation?

On the lower tributaries, they're mostly used for commercial navigation, although they do provide some minor flood control. None of them provide hydroelectric, AFAIK.


realityVSperception: If new dams are deep enough to generate enough pressure for power, won't you lose the ability to navigate around them?

You couldn't build hydroelectric dams on the lower tributaries since there has been too much development along the shorelines. You would be limited to upper tributaries where human development is minimal.


realityVSperception: Why try to break ground for a new site when it is cheaper to add plants at existing sites?

I'm not advocating building them in the styx. You could only build as far out as the transportation infrastructure allows.

As for location, it really isn't much cheaper to build a new reactor next to an existing one. Most reactors are closed systems, with few systems shared between reactors. Even then, you're talking about products that are 30-40 years apart in age, probably from different manufacturers. You wouldn't save on permits either, since you're starting from scratch.

Then you have the question of ownership. Who owns the existing land and legacy reactor? Who owns the new reactor? If we're talking about the DOE (directly or via the TVA) building and owning this, they may want no part in sitting on a private power company's land.


realityVSperception: If you put in cheap nuclear power, won't the primary consumer be local mines?

This is where you need to step back and ask why it was even proposed as to why West Virginia should become this massive smörgåsbord of energy production. The driving force is the elimination of the coal industry. No more mines, no more coal fired turbines.

Since you simply cannot ask a region to destroy its own economy, regardless of the greater outcome, you must give them something in return. Therefore, the whole idea of building tens of billions on energy projects in WV is so that their economy stays afloat, if not even expand.

Since electricity is a fluid commodity, it can be exported to outside consumers. All you need are the transmission lines to carry it. Whatever isn't consumed by the state itself is shipped east to the major Atlantic metros.

Dinjiin:

Thanks for taking the time to reply.


realityVSperception: It looks like there already are several dams on those rivers. Are they for power or to manage navigation?

On the lower tributaries, they're mostly used for commercial navigation, although they do provide some minor flood control. None of them provide hydroelectric, AFAIK.


realityVSperception: If new dams are deep enough to generate enough pressure for power, won't you lose the ability to navigate around them?

You couldn't build hydroelectric dams on the lower tributaries since there has been too much development along the shorelines. You would be limited to upper tributaries where human development is minimal.

That's what I thought, but I didn't see a whole lot of places
left for those dams. If nothing else from an ecological
point of view you don't want to turn the whole watershed
into a series of ponds. You had mentioned dams as part of
your solution, but it looks like most of the low hanging fruit
has already been picked.




realityVSperception: Why try to break ground for a new site when it is cheaper to add plants at existing sites?

I'm not advocating building them in the styx. You could only build as far out as the transportation infrastructure allows.

As for location, it really isn't much cheaper to build a new reactor next to an existing one. Most reactors are closed systems, with few systems shared between reactors. Even then, you're talking about products that are 30-40 years apart in age, probably from different manufacturers. You wouldn't save on permits either, since you're starting from scratch.

Then you have the question of ownership. Who owns the existing land and legacy reactor? Who owns the new reactor? If we're talking about the DOE (directly or via the TVA) building and owning this, they may want no part in sitting on a private power company's land.



Given how well the DOE has handled Hanford the thought
of them building and running a plant makes me shudder.

My thought is that any new plants would be built by utilities
already in the nuclear business.

By co-locating with existing plants on sites
already owned by the utility I was thinking of the
following issues.

-Minimize the NIMBY effect because the original plant has set
a precedent.
-Site Survey work is reduced. You already know what the soil
is like and you have established what earthquake one is for
the area.
-You already have the power transmission infrastructure in place.
-You have addressed security for the site.
-The other plants give you a working history for your environmental impact statements.
-Shared storage for spent fuel

The other nice thing about multiple plants is that the utility
has more flexibility and reserve capacity to manage plant
shutdowns.



realityVSperception: If you put in cheap nuclear power, won't the primary consumer be local mines?

This is where you need to step back and ask why it was even proposed as to why West Virginia should become this massive smörgåsbord of energy production. The driving force is the elimination of the coal industry. No more mines, no more coal fired turbines.

Since you simply cannot ask a region to destroy its own economy, regardless of the greater outcome, you must give them something in return. Therefore, the whole idea of building tens of billions on energy projects in WV is so that their economy stays afloat, if not even expand.

Since electricity is a fluid commodity, it can be exported to outside consumers. All you need are the transmission lines to carry it. Whatever isn't consumed by the state itself is shipped east to the major Atlantic metros.

I agree completely with what you are saying here, it's just
that thing don't always work out the way we hope.

Nuclear plants are great for your baseline power needs, and
given the huge investment in them you want to run them
24x7 at full power to get maximum return on investment.
You still need something to handle peak demand loads though.
The coal plants will still have a place because they can be turned on and off much easier than the nuclear ones can be.
So coal won't go away completely. Plus there are other uses
such as coke for steel making and our nuclear plants won't solve oversea export demand.

The nuclear plants will reduce the need for coal, but which coal?
You may end up shutting down coal mines, but they could
be low grade lignite mines elsewhere in the country. These areas
will be hit with job losses without any benefit in return.
The remaining demand for coal will go to the best quality
source at the cheapest price, which will lead you right back
to WV and its high grade anthracite. Cheap local power
just makes it more competitive in the global marketplace.

But say you do kill king coal. There will be jobs during the
construction phase, but once operational, the nuclear plant
won't be very labor intensive, especially for the low
skilled truck driver types. So in the end, you may still
trash the local economy.


Please forgive me, I'm not trying to be an S.O.B. by picking
apart your ideas. In fact, thanks for the food for thought.
It's just usually things are the way they are for a reason
and changing things is a lot more difficult than it first
appears.