Magorn: Wow. Sounds like somebody got a Penguin Classics paperback of Machiavelli's The Prince for his birthday. Good Jorb reading a big boy book like that all the way through chapter 27!


CHAPTER XVII
Concerning Cruelty And Clemency, And Whether It Is Better To Be Loved Than Feared

Problem is Machiavelli himself was on the losing side of every real-world political tussle he got himself into, and what may have been spiffy advice for 16th century Florentine politics, ain't necessarily the right way to handle being the leader of the most powerful nation on earth

Agreed - also, he didn't read to the end of the chapter (17, btw). The very final line is an exhortation: "Returning to the question of being feared or loved, I come to the conclusion that, men loving according to their own will and fearing according to that of the prince, a wise prince should establish himself on that which is in his own control and not in that of others; he must endeavour only to avoid hatred, as is noted."

Love works, fear is more reliable, hate is the disastrous outcome to be avoided. Nic later spends an entire chapter on avoiding being "despised and hated".

And I agree that some of the advice is seriously dated.

Some people aren't afraid of anybody. They just recognize a threat when they see one, and aren't stupid enough to attack that threat head-on.

The Fear Mongers are the ones that are truly afraid... so much so that they attempt to make others as scared as they are, assuming incorrectly that everyone is as weakly-constituted.

For instance: The Viet Cong.

Bad_Seed: Afghanistan and Pakistan should remember the fate of the Vietnamese and Cambodians

Vietnam won.

funmonger: Vietnam won.

Well, then their sacrifice wasn't in vain!

THE VIETNAMESE!!

"I say, why not have both?"

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

That is all

jrchan: Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

I somewhat disagree - it's a tactic, and it's used by people with all sorts of motivations.

Some have a valid beef, but having no nation with all the instruments of proper warfare, they resort to fighting dirty. (This is where it blurs into guerilla warfare at times.) That's where a 3rd party can come in to try and broker an agreement - a 3rd party stronger than either party.

Some are just caught in a rotten situation and grasp at the chance to lash out at whoever they feel is responsible. For those, a basic improvement in living conditions can sometimes see the support dwindle away. "Sure, I'll help overthrow the oppressors, but business in the falafel shop is actually really good right now and I'm super busy, so - can we talk in two weeks? Three would be better, actually."

For some groups, it's just the local blood feud and they're not going to let their brother/father/uncle lie in his grave unavenged. Takes a change in attitude in the community.

And there are the crazy loners and splinter groups, whom we'll always have. Herostratus' crime was an act of terrorism.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

I supported Afghanistan (still do, and my countrymen are dying in Helmand), spoke out as loudly as I could against Iraq, fat lot of good it did me. The post-fact rationalization of that war is just whitewashing the ugly truth: The US was hurt, wanted to lash out, and was manipulated towards supporting a war against a target of opportunity. I am now sure they show Fox News in Hell, because I distinctly heard Goebbels applauding.

Well, the problem is that to maintain fear requires ever increasing levels of vicious and capricious violence and oppression. Any failure to do so will not keep up with the rising tide of hatred that the fear inducing acts engender.

Fear does not breed loyalty, it merely produces compliance. Rule by fear, and the minute your back is turned, you'll find a knife in it. Allies do not come to the aid of a feared nation, they take advantage of weakness to break away and deny them.

Attempting to dominate by fear is a recipe for diminished American power.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

I bet your happy as well, we get attacked and you can get Palin/Bachmann into office

MrCab: Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

That is all

Fear is the mind killer.

Podna: Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

I bet your happy as well, we get attacked and you can get Palin/Bachmann into office



Womyn in charge of the whole thing? No thanks.

You just know their periods are going to sync up too.

You can't MAKE anyone afraid. They do that all by themselves, and gawd help you if they don't because then it's kill or be killed.

What fun!

Only Bullies think fear works... and you know what they say about them.

pull 'em out and measure 'em

Any extreme position absolves the believer of the burden of thinking. This applies to all aspects of politics. A hawk doesn't want to have to think about how long term peace depends on respect, not fear. He doesn't want to think about the fact that maybe the people he wants to bomb to high heaven aren't really savages who deserve to die in a ball of fire. He certainly doesn't want to think about how he may be wrong on something. Just wants to take the easy way out. "Bomb them into a glass parking lot, that will solve everything. It will all be taken care of for me. I needn't concern myself with anything." Total peaceniks make the same mistake. They won't consider that a war can be about self defense and that there's no choice.

Came for "The Prince" references and leaving slightly disappointed. It took how long until someone mentioned it?

Fear is Good, just ask that Turd george bush and his CONservative Pentagon felching bunch who ran this country into the dirt in 8+ years.


the truth is that Respect is the most important thing a President has. and the way to get Respect thoughout the world is to not bomb countries you suspect harbor nukes. Respect is earned, not threatened or forced.

you can point all the weapons at the world you want, but that does not mean they Respect you. they may Fear you, but not Respect you.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

yea, that's why more of the World Respects Obama more than Bushie, because Obama is naive.

run along now, republican. you've created enough problems these last 8 years.

vartian: Obama gets up and screams about how the Iranian leaders are murderers, and the state Iranian television plays him over and over and over, with a few helpful edits and translations. The people won't hear the nuance; they will hear an America calling Iranians barbarians.

Don't you farking get it? Do they hate each other? Yes. Do they hate us more? Yes. This was a no-win scenario and our President handled it as deftly as he could.

Thank God you people have been reduced to a regional party.



Nuance is lost on dullards, by definition.

Phil Herup: It is better to be liked!!!

Obama!!1!!!Harvard!!!1!!

HARVARD!!!

HARVARD!!!

Wrong.

its better to be Respected. Respect is earned, not threatened or Forced.

just ask bush, most of the World does not like or Respect that clown and he was pretty good at using force and threats.

run along now, republican. its time for your 4 o'clock Tea.

This article is more a testament to the constant fear that is the core of conservatism than it is indicative of anything regarding Obama's administration.

Oh God! Cal Thomas just gets nuttier every year. I guess there is no market for the voice of reason anymore.

TFA:

One of the flaws in U.S. policy in this and in the Bush administration has been our commitment to elections as an end and not a means. Elections can put scoundrels in power and the election that elevates them is often the last one a country sees until the miscreants are overthrown.

Cal is basically saying that we should only support elections when they put the "right" people in power. Democracy is a bad thing when people we do not like get elected.

Crap like this is dangerous.

crab66: Hobodeluxe: Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.



Bush(we) got played like a fiddle. He and the neocons are exactly what our enemies wanted from 9/11. They are not afraid of you, as much as rightwingers like to think so.


Osama bin Laden needed someone like bush to play into his trap. and bush fullfilled that need splendidly!

that is what happens when someone of superior intellect (Osama) moves against someone of inferior intellect (bush)

Obama would not have fallen for that one.

Obama is feared. Unfortunately, it's by his countrymen.

jjorsett: Obama is feared. Unfortunately, it's by his countrymen.

Maybe it's spending more in 90 days than Bush spend in his first 7 years.. ousting the CEO of a private company... taking control of a private company... taking over the financial sector... wants to fix a health care "crisis" by growing the federal government.. wants to pass the cap and trade scam so his buddies at GS and GE can make bank, while the average American consumer SUFFERS.

Bush farked up with Iraq, but Obama is farking up EVERYWHERE.

Hey guess what? The more afraid you are, the easier it is for terrorists to do their job. They're like a bee flying around in your yard, just leave them alone and ignore them and they'll go away.

Anyway, you're saying our president should be feared? For political reasons? Well now if that isn't the very definition of terrorism...

jrchan: Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

Good point. So, just for example, what are the issues that Al-Qaeda wants addressed, and how can we address them?

You know what to do.

Good god... When did diplomacy become a dirty word in this country?

Though, it is always amusing how confident the desk jockeys, who write this tripe, are in their righteous indignation over Obama's move away from the disastrous "cowboy politics" of the Bush Administration... I mean, it's not like they'll ever have put their tough talk into actions.

keylock71: Good god... When did diplomacy become a dirty word in this country?

When Osama Bin Laden managed to dupe all the conservatards into cowardly fear.

jrchan: Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

I think you're right, up until a certain point. And I had hopes after 9/11 that a lot of what you say there-addressing the mindset, the roots, etc-would be part of the whole 'drain the swamp' angle. Meanwhile, it's sort of like the 'old fixing the barn door after the cow escapes' saying. Sure, it makes ver good, logical and longterm sense to do what we can with the root causes and such, I'm all for it. But there terrorists that are already out there, conducting terror campaigns, planning terror campaigns, it' probably too late to change thier mindset. That's where the big stick comes in.

As I said, I had hopes of a much more far reaching counter terrorism operation and it did not happen.

Well, you RCP nutjobs fear Obama so it's definitely working out just fine for you, right?

jjorsett: Obama is feared. Unfortunately, it's by his countrymen.

And that's better than being respected by them, right?

Yankees Team Gynecologist: When Osama Bin Laden managed to dupe all the conservatards into cowardly fear.






Retarded ideologue Farker is retarded.


-20 for stupid troll

Do it right and you go from being feared to being respected. Do it wrong and you go from being feared to being hated. It's much, much easier to do it wrong when it comes to being feared.

Phil Herup: [9/11 pic]

Yup, that's right--he duped your coward ass into pants-wetting fear. An overblown response like the Iraq war was exactly what he wanted.

This guy also fell for it--a chickenhawk hypocrite draft-dodging coward, and of course, your hero:



Keep dancing, monkey.

YTG

...you're such a loser.


If I were you I would have killed myself a long time ago.