Hobodeluxe: Yeah Osama hated Bush. he did everything Osama wanted him to do and then some. and Kim Jong he sure did fear Bush so much he built up a nuclear arsenal right under his nose. Not to mention Pakistan and their little proliferation hero flaunting his services in his face. And Iran loves that the Shiite are now running things in Iraq. Their influence there is quite substantial with the Mahdi contingent in the government.Palestine elected Hamas as their representative govt.Good thing they all feared Dubya. Otherwise things might be bad.



Nice attempt at spin.


-10

Commander: Yes?

Carpenter: Captain Carpenter here, sir. We've been on red alert now for three days, sir, and still no sign of Mr Neutron.

Commander: Have we bombed anywhere? Have we shown 'era we got teeth?

Carpenter: Oh yes, sir. We've bombed a lot of places fiat, sir.

Commander: Good. Good. We don't want anyone to think we're chicken.

Carpenter: Oh no! They don't think that, sir. Everyone's really scared of us, sir.

Commander: Of us?

Carpenter: Yes, sir.

Commander: (pleased) Of our power?

Carpenter: Oh yes, sir! They're really scared when they see those big planes come over.

Commander: Wow! I bet they are. I bet they are. I bet they're really scared.

Carpenter: Oh they are, sir.

Commander: Do we have any figures on how scared they are?

Carpenter: No ... no figures, sir. But they sure were scared.

Phil Herup: Nice attempt at spin.

everything I said in that statement I can prove.

Happy Niccolo is Happy.

/ Can't believe I'm the first.

Hobodeluxe: everything I said in that statement I can prove.


Sure, no argument..

Except that Bush was not the cause for that. They would have done it anyway.

CanisNoir: Not sacrilege but outlandishly wrong and despite blemishes, ignorant of history.

I didn't even make that claim, I merely raised the question of whether it's compatible with using intimidation as a foreign policy.

Look, even I wouldn't go so far as to call Obama a warmonger, you really surprise me here.

Who's calling Obama a warmonger?

Phil Herup - The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.


And everybody else is too.

Phil Herup: Hobodeluxe: everything I said in that statement I can prove.


Sure, no argument..

Except that Bush was not the cause for that. They would have done it anyway.

He wasn't arguing that. He was just rightfully pointing out that, contrary to what TFA claims, trying to be "feared" is ineffectual at best in this context.

mfaby: About King's comment: Too bad RCP isn't a mouth piece of the Republican Party, nor known for their conservative stances.

Yeah. Cal Thomas isn't known for his conservative stance. Who really rules this planet of yours?

I guess it's gonna take another "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" to satisfy these assholes.

Without Fail: If I may interject...

Our best defense is that an informer tips us off when this occurs. And being liked and respected increases the likelihood that we will be informed. If we are hated and feared, then any informer might feel that we deserve to be bombed. Being liked and respected also reduces the chance that someone wishes to attack us in the first place.

Terrorists ARE NOT going to be deterred by fear. They are motivated by it. Feared and hatred will get us killed.

Remind me again: What was the terrible, awful thing that we did to the Muslim world that provoked 9/11?

Oh, right. We kept troops in Saudia Arabia to protect the Saudis from Saddam Hussein. Also, we have a foreign policy that doesn't involve wiping Israel off the map.

It is impossible to make the entire world (even, I would say, a substantial majority of it) like you. People who fly planes into buildings are not rational, emotionally stable people. You can't make them like you, no matter what you do.

What recent acts of terrorism have shown us is that fear can and does affect the way governments behave.

Hobodeluxe: you know who else thought fear was the best diplomacy?



The first US President to win a Nobel Peace Prize (you know, back when they meant something).



This guy is usually considered pretty smart when it comes to politics, too...



...though I'll admit that the whole "fear" thing didn't work out too well for this guy.

Links are hot like the Death Star's superlaser.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

Looks like smart Phil has a day off, and we're stuck with pussy phil.

lamecomedian: ...though I'll admit that the whole "fear" thing didn't work out too well for this guy.

Talk softly and carry a big stick is not fear. It's the opposite of puffery and sable rattling that dominates neo-con philosophy.

Obama is not a constant dick but every country knows that if they attack us they will have thousands of rockets shoved down their throats.

"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy." - President George Washington

Opiumpoopy: I'm amazed you were the first one too. The idea is clearly from Machiavelli's The Prince.

CanisNoir: The other thing I noticed that is really starting to annoy me. Obama seems to be "deeply concerned" about damn near everything which diminishes the word quite a bit.

I've noticed that as well, although I don't mind it one bit. I would much rather we were the large version of Switzerland in which we would express "deep concern" over all these international crises and then carry on as usual.

Phil Herup - Hobodeluxe: everything I said in that statement I can prove.


Sure, no argument..

Except that Bush was not the cause for that. They would have done it anyway.


So, when Bush is in office... "They would have done it anyway."

But, when Obama's in office they're doing it because they don't properly fear him... even though when Bush was in office nobody feared him enough to stop doing what they wanted anyway?

Wow. You come up with some stupid shiat on a regular basis, but this is impressive even for you.

lamecomedian:
You can't make them like you, no matter what you do.

You can't make them fear you either. You just end up pissing them off more. Just because they are not rational does not mean we can't be.

I knew I should have voted for Saddam.

Rann Xerox: Sonny agrees with Subby's headline.

Whatever became of Sonny?

lol, bringing up Machiavelli like some spoiled rich kid playing noble.

DarnoKonrad:

Talk softly and carry a big stick is not fear. It's the opposite of puffery and sable rattling that dominates neo-con philosophy.

How do you rattle one of these?



[Yakov Smirnoff] In professional wrestling, Sable rattles YOU! [/Yakov Smirnoff]



[Too obscure?]

Ah, Republicans.

crab66: Are you trying to justify Iraq?

I shouldn't have to try, Iraq is quite justifiable.

I think we have every right to defend ourselves, our allies and our embassies. If we are attacked we are obligated to seek justice(Afghanistan).

Do you think we have the right to enforce treaties? Would you consider the assassination of a Former President an act of war? Would you think so if the US started Assassinating foreign dignitaries? Do you consider missiles fired at our Aircraft a form of "attack" worth defending against? Do you think Sadam would have stopped financially supporting families of suicide bombers, or just aimed them at other people just not Americans?

There is a difference between a preemptive strike to prevent an attack and an ideological holy war(Iraq). A war that we will never win with military action. NEVER.

This was anything but a preemptive strike. Saddam had plenty of opportunity to avoid it but he maintained his bluff. Everyone and their brother knew we were coming and when; it's not like we kept the repercussions of non cooperation secret.

Also, we did win the war militarily and we may actually win the peace with the same people.

fifthhorseman - lamecomedian:
You can't make them like you, no matter what you do.

You can't make them fear you either. You just end up pissing them off more. Just because they are not rational does not mean we can't be.


While I agree you shouldn't strive to make people fear you, you can make people fear crossing you.

The problem, as in many other things, is people tend to run to the extremes... Some people think we should behave like swaggering bullies, others think we should act like Gandhi.

There two halves to the "big stick ideology," and too many people think the "speak softly" part is all "pussified."

The problem with being too much of a tough guy, is that too often you paint your opponents into a corner in which they're left with no choice but to do exactly what you DON'T want them to do in order to save face. You always have to leave your opponents an opportunity to bow out with dignity.

The problem with being too much of a nice guy is that when you don't draw a line in the sand and say "we'll talk THIS much, but you cross this line and the time for talking is done," people will push and push and push and YOU end up looking weak and soon EVERYone knows they can take advantage of your inability to stand up and say "nope, not one more millimeter."

Bad_Seed: I didn't even make that claim, I merely raised the question of whether it's compatible with using intimidation as a foreign policy.

I stand corrected then. I would say yes it is quite compatible, especially now that we don't have to carpet bomb area's to accomplish it.

There are many examples in history of freedom being won at the point of a sword. As for the Obama warmonger statement I was attempting to be somewhat witty.

Wow. Sounds like somebody got a Penguin Classics paperback of Machiavelli's The Prince for his birthday. Good Jorb reading a big boy book like that all the way through chapter 27!


CHAPTER XVII
Concerning Cruelty And Clemency, And Whether It Is Better To Be Loved Than Feared

Problem is Machiavelli himself was on the losing side of every real-world political tussle he got himself into, and what may have been spiffy advice for 16th century Florentine politics, ain't necessarily the right way to handle being the leader of the most powerful nation on earth

67 Beetle: I've noticed that as well, although I don't mind it one bit. I would much rather we were the large version of Switzerland in which we would express "deep concern" over all these international crises and then carry on as usual.

I'm just saying when you're 'deeply concerned' about Bertha meeting her mortgage, it means so much less when you're also 'deeply concerned' when innocent Iranians are getting gunned down in the streets.

He doesn't have to change policy to switch up the shtick once in a while.

Too many people, both in and out of government, confuse fear with respect. How many times have we heard common street thugs describe their terrorizing of others as "getting respect"?
Trouble is, there's an important difference between fear and respect - you can turn your back on someone who respects you. Those who fear you must always be watched, however - because sooner or later, they'll get tired of you, and take you out.
And this applies to nations as surely as it does to individuals.

Magorn: Problem is Machiavelli himself was on the losing side of every real-world political tussle he got himself into, and what may have been spiffy advice for 16th century Florentine politics, ain't necessarily the right way to handle being the leader of the most powerful nation on earth


So much this.

Machiavelli was a complete simpleton.

CanisNoir: crab66: Are you trying to justify Iraq?

I shouldn't have to try, Iraq is quite justifiable.

I think we have every right to defend ourselves, our allies and our embassies. If we are attacked we are obligated to seek justice(Afghanistan).

Do you think we have the right to enforce treaties? Would you consider the assassination of a Former President an act of war? Would you think so if the US started Assassinating foreign dignitaries? Do you consider missiles fired at our Aircraft a form of "attack" worth defending against? Do you think Sadam would have stopped financially supporting families of suicide bombers, or just aimed them at other people just not Americans?

There is a difference between a preemptive strike to prevent an attack and an ideological holy war(Iraq). A war that we will never win with military action. NEVER.

This was anything but a preemptive strike. Saddam had plenty of opportunity to avoid it but he maintained his bluff. Everyone and their brother knew we were coming and when; it's not like we kept the repercussions of non cooperation secret.

Also, we did win the war militarily and we may actually win the peace with the same people.


You are so delusional you should probably seek medical help. I'm not joking.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy


enemies

Needed moar coffee then.

opiumpoopy: Happy Niccolo is Happy.

/ Can't believe I'm the first.

Machiavelli was (largely) correct

What is truly hilarious is that since the campaign, it's come out that her husband, the snowmachine driver, was the one actually running Alaska. A great many Alaskans, conservative and liberal in various parts of the Alaskan government have come out and stated that he would sit in on meetings and be involved in decision making even though it was usually completely inappropriate.

She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Hows it taste, conservatives?

crab66: You are so delusional you should probably seek medical help. I'm not joking.

You are so devoid of a valid debatable point you should seek someone informed. I'm not joking.

mynameismark: What is truly hilarious is that since the campaign, it's come out that her husband, the snowmachine driver, was the one actually running Alaska. A great many Alaskans, conservative and liberal in various parts of the Alaskan government have come out and stated that he would sit in on meetings and be involved in decision making even though it was usually completely inappropriate.

She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Hows it taste, conservatives?


D'oh! Wrong thread.

[Lincoln Rape.jpg]

technicolor-misfit
While I agree you shouldn't strive to make people fear you, you can make people fear crossing you.

The problem, as in many other things, is people tend to run to the extremes...

I agree with what you are saying when it comes to nation-states. They are rational players that can be carrot/sticked. However, terrorists are by definition not rational players. There is no carrot nor stick big enough to get all of them to fear crossing you. Terrorism cannot be solved. The best that can be done is detect, contain, and isolate it.

mynameismark: She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Yea because the spouse of someone holding an Executive government position getting involved makes that executive an idiot right?

Michele Obama Crafts Policy Agenda (new window)

mynameismark: D'oh! Wrong thread.

Time to facepalm myself as well; I responded.

/Who's the fool again? ;)

CanisNoir: mynameismark: She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Yea because the spouse of someone holding an Executive government position getting involved makes that executive an idiot right?

Michele Obama Crafts Policy Agenda (new window)


When Michelle sits in on situation room happenings, then we'll talk, ok?

CanisNoir: crab66: You are so delusional you should probably seek medical help. I'm not joking.

You are so devoid of a valid debatable point you should seek someone informed. I'm not joking.

You spout revisionist history that has little basis in reality and expect me to respond with "valid" debate?

I can't argue with someone that doesn't have the mental capacity to know the difference between information and fabrication.

You are insane. Seek help before you hurt yourself or someone else.

but but but

Apology tour time????? Last one did not work, shall we try again?????

CanisNoir: I would say yes it is quite compatible, especially now that we don't have to carpet bomb area's to accomplish it.

Yes, the move from carpet bombing to "precision" strikes is truly a great leap forward for humanity. The civilians of Afghanistan and Pakistan should remember the fate of the Vietnamese and Cambodians and express gratitude at their good fortune.

There are many examples in history of freedom being won at the point of a sword.

Very few actually. Generally, when the swords come out freedom loses.

What enemies of America?

America is like a big drunk, stumbling around with a gun.

Everywhere it looks it sees enemies while it mooches, begs, borrows, and steals from the rest of the world.

I'm pretty damn sure America is very feared, which is one of our biggest problems.

Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

jrchan:

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

I supported going after Osama and going into Afghanistan but I never supported anything to do with Iraq and actively protested that and the gulf war. (Fat load of good that did.)