Well, it looks like the folks at RCP are pinin' for the 'good ol' days' when "Because F*CK YOU, that's why!!1!" was a valid reason to just up and invade a middle eastern country.

Apparently nuance is lost on these people.

About King's comment: Too bad RCP isn't a mouth piece of the Republican Party, nor known for their conservative stances.

Headline is absolutely correct: Obama has been disgraceful. He damned near refuses to contemn the dictators in Iran for killing people and does contemn the Honduran government for acting according to their Constitution in disposing of a president trying to setup himself for life long rule - his actions are specifically outlined in their Constitution and their Supreme Court took appropriate action.

Yet somehow this bothers Barry and Hilary along with the UN, Castro, Chavez and Ortega...

Are the pharmacies closed tonight or did some little turd run out of hard liquor ?

The fark it is. We don't have to stare down a superpower armed with enough nukes to wipe out all life on the planet. To say that a US president must be feared is just idiotic and the stance of a Cold Warrior who can't see a new world. Besides, we had a President who liked to 'scare' the rest of the world, and all it got was everyone to hate us, not be scared of us.

mfaby: does contemn the Honduran government for acting according to their Constitution in disposing of a president trying to setup himself for life long rule - his actions are specifically outlined in their Constitution and their Supreme Court took appropriate action.

Their constitution advocates immediate armed overthrow and installation of a new leader if the president tries to hold a referendum to amend that constitution?

That's hardcore.

weezbo 2009-07-03 12:54:55 AM
mfaby: does contemn the Honduran government for acting according to their Constitution in disposing of a president trying to setup himself for life long rule - his actions are specifically outlined in their Constitution and their Supreme Court took appropriate action.

Their constitution advocates immediate armed overthrow and installation of a new leader if the president tries to hold a referendum to amend that constitution?

That's hardcore.

Actually, it does. It states that if a president tries to amend the Constitution he is to instantly removed from office.

I KNOW!!!! Isn't that something. There is an article in the Christian Science Monitor today from a guy who was served for a number of years in the Honduran government. He explained it all; a very good article.

GAT_00 2009-07-03 12:37:55 AM
The fark it is. We don't have to stare down a superpower armed with enough nukes to wipe out all life on the planet. To say that a US president must be feared is just idiotic and the stance of a Cold Warrior who can't see a new world. Besides, we had a President who liked to 'scare' the rest of the world, and all it got was everyone to hate us, not be scared of us.

Yeah and guess what? Foreigners STILL don't like the U.S.

And Obama is being challanged by Iraq and NKorea, along with Russia (re: Georgia) so that's what wanting to be liked gets you: bullied.

The fact that you are more worried about how other nations 'feel' about the U.S. instead of what is best to keep this country strong shows your missed placed priorities.

mfaby: It states that if a president tries to amend the Constitution he is to instantly removed from office.

Do they have some legal means of amending the Constitution? Or is it just perfect the way it is?

I'll have to see if I can find that article.

weezbo: Their constitution advocates immediate armed overthrow and installation of a new leader if the president tries to hold a referendum to amend that constitution?

Look here (new window) and here. (new window) If these sources are accurate, it sounds pretty open and shut (although the use of "extra-constitutional" made me lol).

On the other hand, this (new window) seems to be saying it isn't so cut and dried.

I'm no expert on Honduran politics and I'm just starting to read up on it myself, but it all seems pretty interesting.

Great Metal Jesus: I'm no expert on Honduran politics and I'm just starting to read up on it myself, but it all seems pretty interesting.

Looks pretty wild to me. I think Obama's response is more of the "military takeovers aren't such a great idea" general variety than addressing the specific legalities and I wish we had some kind of indication that the ousted dude had requested exile in lieu of trial, but, yeah, this is a pretty bizarre state of affairs.

Ahhh...for the good old days of "DO IT OR WE'LL SHOOT YOUR CHILDREN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!"

That's worked out so well for us, hasn't it?

It seems similar so far to the similar and recent cries, "What's Obama gonna do abou them pirates who done and gone and tooked that...they done whut? And they didn't tell US first?"

Things talked about most, exist least. I'm actually kind of glad to have a President that doesn't reach for the stick first and foremost. Sometimes you get a few more bees with honey, than taking a damn flamethrower to them...

"It is one thing for a president to be liked, but in a dangerous world...it is better that an American president be feared."

Never minding the percentage of these dictators and the states that we've supported that have turned on us the moment we abandoned them. Which has been a big problem with the blow back from our policy of being feared and supporting less than democratic states because they were better than the Red Scare...

No, in a dangerous world it is better that he be liked. And, as a bonus, respected.

mfaby: About King's comment: Too bad RCP isn't a mouth piece of the Republican Party, nor known for their conservative stances.

Headline is absolutely correct: Obama has been disgraceful. He damned near refuses to contemn the dictators in Iran for killing people and does contemn the Honduran government for acting according to their Constitution in disposing of a president trying to setup himself for life long rule - his actions are specifically outlined in their Constitution and their Supreme Court took appropriate action.

Yet somehow this bothers Barry and Hilary along with the UN, Castro, Chavez and Ortega...

Obama gets up and screams about how the Iranian leaders are murderers, and the state Iranian television plays him over and over and over, with a few helpful edits and translations. The people won't hear the nuance; they will hear an America calling Iranians barbarians.

Don't you farking get it? Do they hate each other? Yes. Do they hate us more? Yes. This was a no-win scenario and our President handled it as deftly as he could.

Thank God you people have been reduced to a regional party.

Oh, oops, ... Cal Thomas?

Phfffttt.

BuckTurgidson: No, in a dangerous world it is better that he be liked. And, as a bonus, respected.

All three would be best yet.

you know who else thought fear was the best diplomacy?

Guess I should beat my kids with a stick. I'd rather be respected but I guess its better if they just fear me.

OK, I'm starting to get WHARRGARBL burnout.

Are they going to give it a rest any time soon, or are we doomed to hear this bullshiat until the 2010 elections are over? I have enough to biatch about re: Obama without these farkwits thrashing about and howling because OMG A BLACK GUY IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE HE MUST BE A FOREIGN PUSSY MUSLIM PEACENIK COMMUNIST DICTATOR.fark off already

Nope, nope, I don't WANT to have a mass-murdering farkhead for a leader. We had one of those already, never again.

Got to admit though; either is a welcome change from having an American president that's just ridiculed, like the last one.

the wrong people saying you're wrong has a better batting average than the right people saying you're right.

heap: the wrong people saying you're wrong has a better batting average than the right people saying you're right.

+1 cromulence

GAT_00: The fark it is. We don't have to stare down a superpower...

*Yawn*

Russia

China

/maybe not in that order
//takes another slug of coffee

I didn't read the article, RCP is a known slanted blog, but I will address the point of the headline.

One thing I find interesting is that there does appear to be a rift appearing between Hillary and Obama.
Hot Air from Yesterday with internal links (new window)

I liked Hillary for the job because I saw her as more of a Hawk than Obama, and it seems I might have been right. I wish he would let her take the lead in Foreign policy.

The other thing I noticed that is really starting to annoy me. Obama seems to be "deeply concerned" about damn near everything which diminishes the word quite a bit.

So, these people who say that the US president should make other people scared of him, are they the same ones who insist that the US is a force for good and a shining beacon of freedom and democracy?

I would rather we not police the world and mind our own farking business. Sticking our head into Iran would only make things worse. Unless we are planning on actively supporting a group then we need to shut the fark up and let them deal with their own issues. I know Republicans want to spread freedom(and by freedom I mean Christianity) but most of us don't really like unnecessary wars.

I have throughout my life always found that fear is never the best motivator and that it is not the same thing as respect.

That sentiment seems to be absent in the apocalyptic wingnut crowd. This is nothing more than egomaniacal bullshiat from the same people that took us into Iraq.


Cock waving shoot first and ask questions later stupidity. These people don't give a shiat about the sick and poor here. Why are they suddenly so concerned about whats going on the world? They have not cared for the past 8 years so why now? Oh that's right it's a convenient excuse to attack Obama becuase he is not so easy to attack without looking like a douche.


Complete. farking. Morons.

The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

Bad_Seed: So, these people who say that the US president should make other people scared of him, are they the same ones who insist that the US is a force for good and a shining beacon of freedom and democracy?

Nope, they're the people that realize political power exists at the end of a barrel.

Bad_Seed: So, these people who say that the US president should make other people scared of him, are they the same ones who insist that the US is a force for good and a shining beacon of freedom and democracy?

Are you trying to say we're not? Do you forget that having troops on both borders of Iran forced them back to the diplomatic table at one point in time because they were worried we might invade?

But you're right, the way to promote peace and US interests is to demonstrate total weakness.

CanisNoir: Hot Air from Yesterday with internal links

You'll have to forgive me, but I don't think I'm going to buy into an 'insight' garnered by not only:

1. Hot Air (lol)
2. Conservawhatsits, who frothed for farking years about how much they hated Hilary
3. You

Troll elsewhere, we can do without yours and Hot Airs' concern.

Bad_Seed: So, these people who say that the US president should make other people scared of him, are they the same ones who insist that the US is a force for good and a shining beacon of freedom and democracy?

Either that, or they look to Conan the Barbarian for political advice..

"Conan, what is best in life?"

CanisNoir: I didn't read the article, RCP is a known slanted blog, but I will address the point of the headline.

you then proceed to link to a Hot Air piece after disparaging RCP for being biased?

Hypocrite much?

Sonny agrees with Subby's headline.

Thnk you, oh Fark gods, for giving Really Clearly Bullshiat its own tag, so I may not give them clickety-clicks or waste my time.

Ramen.

"It is one thing for a president to be liked, but in a dangerous world...it is better that an American president be feared."

Well, the Right's terrified of him, so there's that.

Bigger Leftist Intarweb Schlong: OK, I'm starting to get WHARRGARBL burnout.

Are they going to give it a rest any time soon, or are we doomed to hear this bullshiat until the 2010 elections are over? I have enough to biatch about re: Obama without these farkwits thrashing about and howling because OMG A BLACK GUY IS IN THE WHITE HOUSE HE MUST BE A FOREIGN PUSSY MUSLIM PEACENIK COMMUNIST DICTATOR.fark off already

NAh, Obama won't be out for over 7 years, and then we'll have 8 years of President Franken. You might as well just get used to it. Or go ahead and put the brain dead whaarrgaarblers on ignore and move on.

Phil Herup: It is better to be liked!!!

Obama!!1!!!Harvard!!!1!!

HARVARD!!!

HARVARD!!!

Rann Xerox: Sonny agrees with Subby's headline.

I loved that scene.

crab66: I would rather we not police the world and mind our own farking business. Sticking our head into Iran would only make things worse. Unless we are planning on actively supporting a group then we need to shut the fark up and let them deal with their own issues. I know Republicans want to spread freedom(and by freedom I mean Christianity) but most of us don't really like unnecessary wars.

That alone should have been a disqualifying statement, I'll still deal with the point of your post. Do you honestly think that if we had done nothing after 9/11 that Islamic Fundamentalists would just sit home and pray? Or do you not count those that died at American soft targets over seas? We're not "Policing the world" as you call it, we're giving those who would seek to harm us regardless of what we do, a hard target to attack. Embassy workers and people in clubs don't fight back; the US Military will engage and kill your ass.

/Anyone who doesn't think those from every country are in some way saving the life of Civilians is an idiot and deserves to be called one.

If I may interject...

Sooner or later terrorists are going to get a nuclear weapon or other WMD. Considering the open state of our borders, getting this weapon into the U.S. is physically possible.

Our best defense is that an informer tips us off when this occurs. And being liked and respected increases the likelihood that we will be informed. If we are hated and feared, then any informer might feel that we deserve to be bombed. Being liked and respected also reduces the chance that someone wishes to attack us in the first place.

Terrorists ARE NOT going to be deterred by fear. They are motivated by it. Feared and hatred will get us killed.

Hobodeluxe: you then proceed to link to a Hot Air piece after disparaging RCP for being biased?

Hot Air is also known to be slanted, but less so than RCP. It's bias is why I plainly noted the source of the article as well as the embedded links should people chose to verify Hot Airs source.

Lack a valid point often?

CanisNoir: Are you trying to say we're not?

Why could possibly deny such a thing? It would be sacrilege!

Do you forget that having troops on both borders of Iran forced them back to the diplomatic table at one point in time because they were worried we might invade?

Yes, I did forget about that. I remember how the Iranians provided intelligence on Taliban positions during the Afghan war, which helped the bombing campaign. It's almost as if they liked the idea of the US removing one of their enemies and wanted to offer some help.

I also learned that they offered to do the same during the Iraq war, but were turned down. This is about the point at which they wanted to come "back to the diplomatic table", but were also ignored. A few months later they were singled out as being part of the "Axis of Evil" and did start to fear invasion. In response they ramped up their nuclear programme and started arming the Shiite insurgency, you know, fighting them over there.

Overall, they have been the single biggest winner in the Iraq war. So yes, politics of intimidation have worked out well so far. They are also completely compatible with claim that the country is a force for good.

But you're right, the way to promote peace and US interests...

The two are mutually exclusive.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

Yeah Osama hated Bush. he did everything Osama wanted him to do and then some. and Kim Jong he sure did fear Bush so much he built up a nuclear arsenal right under his nose. Not to mention Pakistan and their little proliferation hero flaunting his services in his face. And Iran loves that the Shiite are now running things in Iraq. Their influence there is quite substantial with the Mahdi contingent in the government.
Palestine elected Hamas as their representative govt.

Good thing they all feared Dubya. Otherwise things might be bad.

Bad_Seed: CanisNoir: Are you trying to say we're not?

Why could possibly deny such a thing? It would be sacrilege!

Not sacrilege but outlandishly wrong and despite blemishes, ignorant of history.



But you're right, the way to promote peace and US interests...

The two are mutually exclusive.

Look, even I wouldn't go so far as to call Obama a warmonger, you really surprise me here.

CanisNoir: crab66: I would rather we not police the world and mind our own farking business. Sticking our head into Iran would only make things worse. Unless we are planning on actively supporting a group then we need to shut the fark up and let them deal with their own issues. I know Republicans want to spread freedom(and by freedom I mean Christianity) but most of us don't really like unnecessary wars.

That alone should have been a disqualifying statement, I'll still deal with the point of your post. Do you honestly think that if we had done nothing after 9/11 that Islamic Fundamentalists would just sit home and pray? Or do you not count those that died at American soft targets over seas? We're not "Policing the world" as you call it, we're giving those who would seek to harm us regardless of what we do, a hard target to attack. Embassy workers and people in clubs don't fight back; the US Military will engage and kill your ass.

/Anyone who doesn't think those from every country are in some way saving the life of Civilians is an idiot and deserves to be called one.

Are you trying to justify Iraq?

I think we have every right to defend ourselves, our allies and our embassies. If we are attacked we are obligated to seek justice(Afghanistan).

There is a difference between a preemptive strike to prevent an attack and an ideological holy war(Iraq). A war that we will never win with military action. NEVER.

CanisNoir: Hot Air is also known to be slanted, but less so than RCP.

that's your opinion. I think it's slanted right. that's my opinion.
Hot Air is farther right. that's my opinion. my critique of you was your assertion of your opinion as fact. and this cya of your hypocrisy is transparent to all. you're not fooling anyone with it.

Hobodeluxe: Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.



Bush(we) got played like a fiddle. He and the neocons are exactly what our enemies wanted from 9/11. They are not afraid of you, as much as rightwingers like to think so.

Hobodeluxe: Yeah Osama hated Bush. he did everything Osama wanted him to do and then some. and Kim Jong he sure did fear Bush so much he built up a nuclear arsenal right under his nose. Not to mention Pakistan and their little proliferation hero flaunting his services in his face. And Iran loves that the Shiite are now running things in Iraq. Their influence there is quite substantial with the Mahdi contingent in the government.Palestine elected Hamas as their representative govt.Good thing they all feared Dubya. Otherwise things might be bad.



Nice attempt at spin.


-10

Commander: Yes?

Carpenter: Captain Carpenter here, sir. We've been on red alert now for three days, sir, and still no sign of Mr Neutron.

Commander: Have we bombed anywhere? Have we shown 'era we got teeth?

Carpenter: Oh yes, sir. We've bombed a lot of places fiat, sir.

Commander: Good. Good. We don't want anyone to think we're chicken.

Carpenter: Oh no! They don't think that, sir. Everyone's really scared of us, sir.

Commander: Of us?

Carpenter: Yes, sir.

Commander: (pleased) Of our power?

Carpenter: Oh yes, sir! They're really scared when they see those big planes come over.

Commander: Wow! I bet they are. I bet they are. I bet they're really scared.

Carpenter: Oh they are, sir.

Commander: Do we have any figures on how scared they are?

Carpenter: No ... no figures, sir. But they sure were scared.

Phil Herup: Nice attempt at spin.

everything I said in that statement I can prove.

Happy Niccolo is Happy.

/ Can't believe I'm the first.

Hobodeluxe: everything I said in that statement I can prove.


Sure, no argument..

Except that Bush was not the cause for that. They would have done it anyway.

CanisNoir: Not sacrilege but outlandishly wrong and despite blemishes, ignorant of history.

I didn't even make that claim, I merely raised the question of whether it's compatible with using intimidation as a foreign policy.

Look, even I wouldn't go so far as to call Obama a warmonger, you really surprise me here.

Who's calling Obama a warmonger?

Phil Herup - The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.


And everybody else is too.

Phil Herup: Hobodeluxe: everything I said in that statement I can prove.


Sure, no argument..

Except that Bush was not the cause for that. They would have done it anyway.

He wasn't arguing that. He was just rightfully pointing out that, contrary to what TFA claims, trying to be "feared" is ineffectual at best in this context.

mfaby: About King's comment: Too bad RCP isn't a mouth piece of the Republican Party, nor known for their conservative stances.

Yeah. Cal Thomas isn't known for his conservative stance. Who really rules this planet of yours?

I guess it's gonna take another "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" to satisfy these assholes.

Without Fail: If I may interject...

Our best defense is that an informer tips us off when this occurs. And being liked and respected increases the likelihood that we will be informed. If we are hated and feared, then any informer might feel that we deserve to be bombed. Being liked and respected also reduces the chance that someone wishes to attack us in the first place.

Terrorists ARE NOT going to be deterred by fear. They are motivated by it. Feared and hatred will get us killed.

Remind me again: What was the terrible, awful thing that we did to the Muslim world that provoked 9/11?

Oh, right. We kept troops in Saudia Arabia to protect the Saudis from Saddam Hussein. Also, we have a foreign policy that doesn't involve wiping Israel off the map.

It is impossible to make the entire world (even, I would say, a substantial majority of it) like you. People who fly planes into buildings are not rational, emotionally stable people. You can't make them like you, no matter what you do.

What recent acts of terrorism have shown us is that fear can and does affect the way governments behave.

Hobodeluxe: you know who else thought fear was the best diplomacy?



The first US President to win a Nobel Peace Prize (you know, back when they meant something).



This guy is usually considered pretty smart when it comes to politics, too...



...though I'll admit that the whole "fear" thing didn't work out too well for this guy.

Links are hot like the Death Star's superlaser.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

Looks like smart Phil has a day off, and we're stuck with pussy phil.

lamecomedian: ...though I'll admit that the whole "fear" thing didn't work out too well for this guy.

Talk softly and carry a big stick is not fear. It's the opposite of puffery and sable rattling that dominates neo-con philosophy.

Obama is not a constant dick but every country knows that if they attack us they will have thousands of rockets shoved down their throats.

"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy." - President George Washington

Opiumpoopy: I'm amazed you were the first one too. The idea is clearly from Machiavelli's The Prince.

CanisNoir: The other thing I noticed that is really starting to annoy me. Obama seems to be "deeply concerned" about damn near everything which diminishes the word quite a bit.

I've noticed that as well, although I don't mind it one bit. I would much rather we were the large version of Switzerland in which we would express "deep concern" over all these international crises and then carry on as usual.

Phil Herup - Hobodeluxe: everything I said in that statement I can prove.


Sure, no argument..

Except that Bush was not the cause for that. They would have done it anyway.


So, when Bush is in office... "They would have done it anyway."

But, when Obama's in office they're doing it because they don't properly fear him... even though when Bush was in office nobody feared him enough to stop doing what they wanted anyway?

Wow. You come up with some stupid shiat on a regular basis, but this is impressive even for you.

lamecomedian:
You can't make them like you, no matter what you do.

You can't make them fear you either. You just end up pissing them off more. Just because they are not rational does not mean we can't be.

I knew I should have voted for Saddam.

Rann Xerox: Sonny agrees with Subby's headline.

Whatever became of Sonny?

lol, bringing up Machiavelli like some spoiled rich kid playing noble.

DarnoKonrad:

Talk softly and carry a big stick is not fear. It's the opposite of puffery and sable rattling that dominates neo-con philosophy.

How do you rattle one of these?



[Yakov Smirnoff] In professional wrestling, Sable rattles YOU! [/Yakov Smirnoff]



[Too obscure?]

Ah, Republicans.

crab66: Are you trying to justify Iraq?

I shouldn't have to try, Iraq is quite justifiable.

I think we have every right to defend ourselves, our allies and our embassies. If we are attacked we are obligated to seek justice(Afghanistan).

Do you think we have the right to enforce treaties? Would you consider the assassination of a Former President an act of war? Would you think so if the US started Assassinating foreign dignitaries? Do you consider missiles fired at our Aircraft a form of "attack" worth defending against? Do you think Sadam would have stopped financially supporting families of suicide bombers, or just aimed them at other people just not Americans?

There is a difference between a preemptive strike to prevent an attack and an ideological holy war(Iraq). A war that we will never win with military action. NEVER.

This was anything but a preemptive strike. Saddam had plenty of opportunity to avoid it but he maintained his bluff. Everyone and their brother knew we were coming and when; it's not like we kept the repercussions of non cooperation secret.

Also, we did win the war militarily and we may actually win the peace with the same people.

fifthhorseman - lamecomedian:
You can't make them like you, no matter what you do.

You can't make them fear you either. You just end up pissing them off more. Just because they are not rational does not mean we can't be.


While I agree you shouldn't strive to make people fear you, you can make people fear crossing you.

The problem, as in many other things, is people tend to run to the extremes... Some people think we should behave like swaggering bullies, others think we should act like Gandhi.

There two halves to the "big stick ideology," and too many people think the "speak softly" part is all "pussified."

The problem with being too much of a tough guy, is that too often you paint your opponents into a corner in which they're left with no choice but to do exactly what you DON'T want them to do in order to save face. You always have to leave your opponents an opportunity to bow out with dignity.

The problem with being too much of a nice guy is that when you don't draw a line in the sand and say "we'll talk THIS much, but you cross this line and the time for talking is done," people will push and push and push and YOU end up looking weak and soon EVERYone knows they can take advantage of your inability to stand up and say "nope, not one more millimeter."

Bad_Seed: I didn't even make that claim, I merely raised the question of whether it's compatible with using intimidation as a foreign policy.

I stand corrected then. I would say yes it is quite compatible, especially now that we don't have to carpet bomb area's to accomplish it.

There are many examples in history of freedom being won at the point of a sword. As for the Obama warmonger statement I was attempting to be somewhat witty.

Wow. Sounds like somebody got a Penguin Classics paperback of Machiavelli's The Prince for his birthday. Good Jorb reading a big boy book like that all the way through chapter 27!


CHAPTER XVII
Concerning Cruelty And Clemency, And Whether It Is Better To Be Loved Than Feared

Problem is Machiavelli himself was on the losing side of every real-world political tussle he got himself into, and what may have been spiffy advice for 16th century Florentine politics, ain't necessarily the right way to handle being the leader of the most powerful nation on earth

67 Beetle: I've noticed that as well, although I don't mind it one bit. I would much rather we were the large version of Switzerland in which we would express "deep concern" over all these international crises and then carry on as usual.

I'm just saying when you're 'deeply concerned' about Bertha meeting her mortgage, it means so much less when you're also 'deeply concerned' when innocent Iranians are getting gunned down in the streets.

He doesn't have to change policy to switch up the shtick once in a while.

Too many people, both in and out of government, confuse fear with respect. How many times have we heard common street thugs describe their terrorizing of others as "getting respect"?
Trouble is, there's an important difference between fear and respect - you can turn your back on someone who respects you. Those who fear you must always be watched, however - because sooner or later, they'll get tired of you, and take you out.
And this applies to nations as surely as it does to individuals.

Magorn: Problem is Machiavelli himself was on the losing side of every real-world political tussle he got himself into, and what may have been spiffy advice for 16th century Florentine politics, ain't necessarily the right way to handle being the leader of the most powerful nation on earth


So much this.

Machiavelli was a complete simpleton.

CanisNoir: crab66: Are you trying to justify Iraq?

I shouldn't have to try, Iraq is quite justifiable.

I think we have every right to defend ourselves, our allies and our embassies. If we are attacked we are obligated to seek justice(Afghanistan).

Do you think we have the right to enforce treaties? Would you consider the assassination of a Former President an act of war? Would you think so if the US started Assassinating foreign dignitaries? Do you consider missiles fired at our Aircraft a form of "attack" worth defending against? Do you think Sadam would have stopped financially supporting families of suicide bombers, or just aimed them at other people just not Americans?

There is a difference between a preemptive strike to prevent an attack and an ideological holy war(Iraq). A war that we will never win with military action. NEVER.

This was anything but a preemptive strike. Saddam had plenty of opportunity to avoid it but he maintained his bluff. Everyone and their brother knew we were coming and when; it's not like we kept the repercussions of non cooperation secret.

Also, we did win the war militarily and we may actually win the peace with the same people.


You are so delusional you should probably seek medical help. I'm not joking.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy


enemies

Needed moar coffee then.

opiumpoopy: Happy Niccolo is Happy.

/ Can't believe I'm the first.

Machiavelli was (largely) correct

What is truly hilarious is that since the campaign, it's come out that her husband, the snowmachine driver, was the one actually running Alaska. A great many Alaskans, conservative and liberal in various parts of the Alaskan government have come out and stated that he would sit in on meetings and be involved in decision making even though it was usually completely inappropriate.

She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Hows it taste, conservatives?

crab66: You are so delusional you should probably seek medical help. I'm not joking.

You are so devoid of a valid debatable point you should seek someone informed. I'm not joking.

mynameismark: What is truly hilarious is that since the campaign, it's come out that her husband, the snowmachine driver, was the one actually running Alaska. A great many Alaskans, conservative and liberal in various parts of the Alaskan government have come out and stated that he would sit in on meetings and be involved in decision making even though it was usually completely inappropriate.

She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Hows it taste, conservatives?


D'oh! Wrong thread.

[Lincoln Rape.jpg]

technicolor-misfit
While I agree you shouldn't strive to make people fear you, you can make people fear crossing you.

The problem, as in many other things, is people tend to run to the extremes...

I agree with what you are saying when it comes to nation-states. They are rational players that can be carrot/sticked. However, terrorists are by definition not rational players. There is no carrot nor stick big enough to get all of them to fear crossing you. Terrorism cannot be solved. The best that can be done is detect, contain, and isolate it.

mynameismark: She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Yea because the spouse of someone holding an Executive government position getting involved makes that executive an idiot right?

Michele Obama Crafts Policy Agenda (new window)

mynameismark: D'oh! Wrong thread.

Time to facepalm myself as well; I responded.

/Who's the fool again? ;)

CanisNoir: mynameismark: She wasn't even running her own (small)state and every Republican/conservative I know kept repeating the part about her having more "executive" experience than did Obama. And they were rabid about it hahaha.

Yea because the spouse of someone holding an Executive government position getting involved makes that executive an idiot right?

Michele Obama Crafts Policy Agenda (new window)


When Michelle sits in on situation room happenings, then we'll talk, ok?

CanisNoir: crab66: You are so delusional you should probably seek medical help. I'm not joking.

You are so devoid of a valid debatable point you should seek someone informed. I'm not joking.

You spout revisionist history that has little basis in reality and expect me to respond with "valid" debate?

I can't argue with someone that doesn't have the mental capacity to know the difference between information and fabrication.

You are insane. Seek help before you hurt yourself or someone else.

but but but

Apology tour time????? Last one did not work, shall we try again?????

CanisNoir: I would say yes it is quite compatible, especially now that we don't have to carpet bomb area's to accomplish it.

Yes, the move from carpet bombing to "precision" strikes is truly a great leap forward for humanity. The civilians of Afghanistan and Pakistan should remember the fate of the Vietnamese and Cambodians and express gratitude at their good fortune.

There are many examples in history of freedom being won at the point of a sword.

Very few actually. Generally, when the swords come out freedom loses.

What enemies of America?

America is like a big drunk, stumbling around with a gun.

Everywhere it looks it sees enemies while it mooches, begs, borrows, and steals from the rest of the world.

I'm pretty damn sure America is very feared, which is one of our biggest problems.

Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

jrchan:

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

I supported going after Osama and going into Afghanistan but I never supported anything to do with Iraq and actively protested that and the gulf war. (Fat load of good that did.)

Magorn: Wow. Sounds like somebody got a Penguin Classics paperback of Machiavelli's The Prince for his birthday. Good Jorb reading a big boy book like that all the way through chapter 27!


CHAPTER XVII
Concerning Cruelty And Clemency, And Whether It Is Better To Be Loved Than Feared

Problem is Machiavelli himself was on the losing side of every real-world political tussle he got himself into, and what may have been spiffy advice for 16th century Florentine politics, ain't necessarily the right way to handle being the leader of the most powerful nation on earth

Agreed - also, he didn't read to the end of the chapter (17, btw). The very final line is an exhortation: "Returning to the question of being feared or loved, I come to the conclusion that, men loving according to their own will and fearing according to that of the prince, a wise prince should establish himself on that which is in his own control and not in that of others; he must endeavour only to avoid hatred, as is noted."

Love works, fear is more reliable, hate is the disastrous outcome to be avoided. Nic later spends an entire chapter on avoiding being "despised and hated".

And I agree that some of the advice is seriously dated.

Some people aren't afraid of anybody. They just recognize a threat when they see one, and aren't stupid enough to attack that threat head-on.

The Fear Mongers are the ones that are truly afraid... so much so that they attempt to make others as scared as they are, assuming incorrectly that everyone is as weakly-constituted.

For instance: The Viet Cong.

Bad_Seed: Afghanistan and Pakistan should remember the fate of the Vietnamese and Cambodians

Vietnam won.

funmonger: Vietnam won.

Well, then their sacrifice wasn't in vain!

THE VIETNAMESE!!

"I say, why not have both?"

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

That is all

jrchan: Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

I somewhat disagree - it's a tactic, and it's used by people with all sorts of motivations.

Some have a valid beef, but having no nation with all the instruments of proper warfare, they resort to fighting dirty. (This is where it blurs into guerilla warfare at times.) That's where a 3rd party can come in to try and broker an agreement - a 3rd party stronger than either party.

Some are just caught in a rotten situation and grasp at the chance to lash out at whoever they feel is responsible. For those, a basic improvement in living conditions can sometimes see the support dwindle away. "Sure, I'll help overthrow the oppressors, but business in the falafel shop is actually really good right now and I'm super busy, so - can we talk in two weeks? Three would be better, actually."

For some groups, it's just the local blood feud and they're not going to let their brother/father/uncle lie in his grave unavenged. Takes a change in attitude in the community.

And there are the crazy loners and splinter groups, whom we'll always have. Herostratus' crime was an act of terrorism.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

I supported Afghanistan (still do, and my countrymen are dying in Helmand), spoke out as loudly as I could against Iraq, fat lot of good it did me. The post-fact rationalization of that war is just whitewashing the ugly truth: The US was hurt, wanted to lash out, and was manipulated towards supporting a war against a target of opportunity. I am now sure they show Fox News in Hell, because I distinctly heard Goebbels applauding.

Well, the problem is that to maintain fear requires ever increasing levels of vicious and capricious violence and oppression. Any failure to do so will not keep up with the rising tide of hatred that the fear inducing acts engender.

Fear does not breed loyalty, it merely produces compliance. Rule by fear, and the minute your back is turned, you'll find a knife in it. Allies do not come to the aid of a feared nation, they take advantage of weakness to break away and deny them.

Attempting to dominate by fear is a recipe for diminished American power.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

I bet your happy as well, we get attacked and you can get Palin/Bachmann into office

MrCab: Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

That is all

Fear is the mind killer.

Podna: Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

I bet your happy as well, we get attacked and you can get Palin/Bachmann into office



Womyn in charge of the whole thing? No thanks.

You just know their periods are going to sync up too.

You can't MAKE anyone afraid. They do that all by themselves, and gawd help you if they don't because then it's kill or be killed.

What fun!

Only Bullies think fear works... and you know what they say about them.

pull 'em out and measure 'em

Any extreme position absolves the believer of the burden of thinking. This applies to all aspects of politics. A hawk doesn't want to have to think about how long term peace depends on respect, not fear. He doesn't want to think about the fact that maybe the people he wants to bomb to high heaven aren't really savages who deserve to die in a ball of fire. He certainly doesn't want to think about how he may be wrong on something. Just wants to take the easy way out. "Bomb them into a glass parking lot, that will solve everything. It will all be taken care of for me. I needn't concern myself with anything." Total peaceniks make the same mistake. They won't consider that a war can be about self defense and that there's no choice.

Came for "The Prince" references and leaving slightly disappointed. It took how long until someone mentioned it?

Fear is Good, just ask that Turd george bush and his CONservative Pentagon felching bunch who ran this country into the dirt in 8+ years.


the truth is that Respect is the most important thing a President has. and the way to get Respect thoughout the world is to not bomb countries you suspect harbor nukes. Respect is earned, not threatened or forced.

you can point all the weapons at the world you want, but that does not mean they Respect you. they may Fear you, but not Respect you.

Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.

yea, that's why more of the World Respects Obama more than Bushie, because Obama is naive.

run along now, republican. you've created enough problems these last 8 years.

vartian: Obama gets up and screams about how the Iranian leaders are murderers, and the state Iranian television plays him over and over and over, with a few helpful edits and translations. The people won't hear the nuance; they will hear an America calling Iranians barbarians.

Don't you farking get it? Do they hate each other? Yes. Do they hate us more? Yes. This was a no-win scenario and our President handled it as deftly as he could.

Thank God you people have been reduced to a regional party.



Nuance is lost on dullards, by definition.

Phil Herup: It is better to be liked!!!

Obama!!1!!!Harvard!!!1!!

HARVARD!!!

HARVARD!!!

Wrong.

its better to be Respected. Respect is earned, not threatened or Forced.

just ask bush, most of the World does not like or Respect that clown and he was pretty good at using force and threats.

run along now, republican. its time for your 4 o'clock Tea.

This article is more a testament to the constant fear that is the core of conservatism than it is indicative of anything regarding Obama's administration.

Oh God! Cal Thomas just gets nuttier every year. I guess there is no market for the voice of reason anymore.

TFA:

One of the flaws in U.S. policy in this and in the Bush administration has been our commitment to elections as an end and not a means. Elections can put scoundrels in power and the election that elevates them is often the last one a country sees until the miscreants are overthrown.

Cal is basically saying that we should only support elections when they put the "right" people in power. Democracy is a bad thing when people we do not like get elected.

Crap like this is dangerous.

crab66: Hobodeluxe: Phil Herup: The enimies of the US are so happy that naive Obama is in the White House now.



Bush(we) got played like a fiddle. He and the neocons are exactly what our enemies wanted from 9/11. They are not afraid of you, as much as rightwingers like to think so.


Osama bin Laden needed someone like bush to play into his trap. and bush fullfilled that need splendidly!

that is what happens when someone of superior intellect (Osama) moves against someone of inferior intellect (bush)

Obama would not have fallen for that one.

Obama is feared. Unfortunately, it's by his countrymen.

jjorsett: Obama is feared. Unfortunately, it's by his countrymen.

Maybe it's spending more in 90 days than Bush spend in his first 7 years.. ousting the CEO of a private company... taking control of a private company... taking over the financial sector... wants to fix a health care "crisis" by growing the federal government.. wants to pass the cap and trade scam so his buddies at GS and GE can make bank, while the average American consumer SUFFERS.

Bush farked up with Iraq, but Obama is farking up EVERYWHERE.

Hey guess what? The more afraid you are, the easier it is for terrorists to do their job. They're like a bee flying around in your yard, just leave them alone and ignore them and they'll go away.

Anyway, you're saying our president should be feared? For political reasons? Well now if that isn't the very definition of terrorism...

jrchan: Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

Good point. So, just for example, what are the issues that Al-Qaeda wants addressed, and how can we address them?

You know what to do.

Good god... When did diplomacy become a dirty word in this country?

Though, it is always amusing how confident the desk jockeys, who write this tripe, are in their righteous indignation over Obama's move away from the disastrous "cowboy politics" of the Bush Administration... I mean, it's not like they'll ever have put their tough talk into actions.

keylock71: Good god... When did diplomacy become a dirty word in this country?

When Osama Bin Laden managed to dupe all the conservatards into cowardly fear.

jrchan: Terrorism isn't something that can just be dealt with by killing all the terrorists. It's kind of like an idealogy of sorts, it's not just one specific group. You'd only breed more enemies with that type of mindset. The best way to stem the growth of terrorism is to address the roots of the issue, i.e. why are people so pissed off at us.

/easier said than done though, don't pretend that pretty much everybody here wasn't supportive of the response to 9/11

I think you're right, up until a certain point. And I had hopes after 9/11 that a lot of what you say there-addressing the mindset, the roots, etc-would be part of the whole 'drain the swamp' angle. Meanwhile, it's sort of like the 'old fixing the barn door after the cow escapes' saying. Sure, it makes ver good, logical and longterm sense to do what we can with the root causes and such, I'm all for it. But there terrorists that are already out there, conducting terror campaigns, planning terror campaigns, it' probably too late to change thier mindset. That's where the big stick comes in.

As I said, I had hopes of a much more far reaching counter terrorism operation and it did not happen.

Well, you RCP nutjobs fear Obama so it's definitely working out just fine for you, right?

jjorsett: Obama is feared. Unfortunately, it's by his countrymen.

And that's better than being respected by them, right?

Yankees Team Gynecologist: When Osama Bin Laden managed to dupe all the conservatards into cowardly fear.






Retarded ideologue Farker is retarded.


-20 for stupid troll

Do it right and you go from being feared to being respected. Do it wrong and you go from being feared to being hated. It's much, much easier to do it wrong when it comes to being feared.

Phil Herup: [9/11 pic]

Yup, that's right--he duped your coward ass into pants-wetting fear. An overblown response like the Iraq war was exactly what he wanted.

This guy also fell for it--a chickenhawk hypocrite draft-dodging coward, and of course, your hero:



Keep dancing, monkey.

YTG

...you're such a loser.


If I were you I would have killed myself a long time ago.