Nice article. Two points, though:

1) There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.
None. Zero. Zip. Again, this comes from a smear by a political
opponent. His two nephews were known to sleep with the slaves but
that is as close to TJ as the researchers can get.

2) The fact that he owned slaves - for the era and regardless of
his feelings - should not be held against him; he was a man of
his times. It would have been stranger if he had not owned any

He was a truly great man, brillent and flawed, as all great men seem to be. We were lucky to have him.

mfaby: There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.




Not proof strong enough to get a conviction in the court of history, but strong enough that an indictment remains in order over the last of her sons.

mfaby: He was a truly great man, brillent and flawed, as all great men seem to be. We were lucky to have him.

Absolutely.

She mentions the economic downturn of Jefferson; the last time I was doing research at Madison's Montpelier (during the final stage of restoration) I noticed a book in the gift shop which I am eager to get a copy of:

Dominion of Memories: Jefferson, Madison & the Decline of Virginia (new window)

We see a lot of these Revolutionary War Era estates and large plantation homes, and we don't fully realize just how much economic downturn there was as the country moved on and left families and regions behind, politically and economically.

mfaby: 1) There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.
None. Zero. Zip. Again, this comes from a smear by a political
opponent. His two nephews were known to sleep with the slaves but
that is as close to TJ as the researchers can get.

Didn't they do DNA analysis on the black people who claim to be his descendents, and they do match with his known white descendents?

Was that written by an ten year old? If so, it is adorable.

If not, why write in the style of a 10 year old?

Was the point of the intro about the pyramids, echidna, le corbusier's chapel and kyoto's katsura imperial villa that the writer is an INTERESTING person like JEFFERSON?

Perhaps these were things he studied. It seems unlikely that Jefferson knew about the Kyoto villa (since Japan was closed to foreigners when it was built) and Le Corbusier wasn't born until 1887, so Jefferson couldn't have known about him. (duh)

Why be deliberately OBTUSE?

Jungle fever?

DamnYankees: mfaby: 1) There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.
None. Zero. Zip. Again, this comes from a smear by a political
opponent. His two nephews were known to sleep with the slaves but
that is as close to TJ as the researchers can get.

Didn't they do DNA analysis on the black people who claim to be his descendents, and they do match with his known white descendents?

Yeah but that would probably be true even if it was the nephews that fathered the kids.

Edsel: Yeah but that would probably be true even if it was the nephews that fathered the kids.

Maybe, but that's at least *some* evidence. When you are trying to figure out who slept with who 250 years ago, you sort of have to lower your standards of proof a tad.

Didn't make it much past the pyramids. Stupid writing style.

Everyone who believes that the Founding Fathers intended this nation to be a fundamentalist Christian country should go get themselves a copy of the Jefferson Bible and see what he did there.

Cool article.

Peas are also my favorite vegetable.

notmtwain: Was that written by an ten year old? If so, it is adorable.

If not, why write in the style of a 10 year old?

Was the point of the intro about the pyramids, echidna, le corbusier's chapel and kyoto's katsura imperial villa that the writer is an INTERESTING person like JEFFERSON?

Perhaps these were things he studied. It seems unlikely that Jefferson knew about the Kyoto villa (since Japan was closed to foreigners when it was built) and Le Corbusier wasn't born until 1887, so Jefferson couldn't have known about him. (duh)

Why be deliberately OBTUSE?

I think it was meant to be artistic.

It's really interesting, because the Hemings line has almost completely white ancestry-- Sally Hemings herself was only a quarter African-American, and her sons were light enough to pass as white. I'm a direct descendant of TJ, and I've been told the Hemings descendants look very similar. That's all anecdotal, of course.

If you ever have the chance to go to Monticello, I would definitely urge you to do it. It's a beautiful place, and the tour guides have all researched Jefferson individually. Each tour is completely different, and I learn a bunch of new things each time I go.

notmtwain: Was the point of the intro about the pyramids, echidna, le corbusier's chapel and kyoto's katsura imperial villa that the writer is an INTERESTING person like JEFFERSON?

Perhaps these were things he studied. It seems unlikely that Jefferson knew about the Kyoto villa (since Japan was closed to foreigners when it was built) and Le Corbusier wasn't born until 1887, so Jefferson couldn't have known about him. (duh)

FTFA: he was a Renaissance man and would have been fascinated by all of these things.

The style and logical flows were rather clunky, yes, but I don't think the author was attempting to argue that Jefferson DID experience Kyoto or the work of Le Corbusier.

I'm listening to an actor portraying Thomas Jefferson on the radio right now, so I'm getting a kick out of this submission.

He was also kind of a dick.

Zentai: Tom preferred the black coont...

Sorry, Sally Hemings had more white parentage than black.

Possibly America's most over rated historical figure. He is loved by theintelligentsia because he wrote beautifully but his actions --deeds not words -- were of a craven backstabber.

The guy knew slavery was wrong. Wrote about it being an evil. Paled around with folks like Thaddeus Kosiuszko who used his Revolutionary War earnings to buy slaves so they could be freed, yet so wanted. Yet was so obsessed with being a neo feudalist land baron that he kept acquiring them.

He managed to never lift a finger in battle. But waged mighty wars or words laying the ground work for do nothings like the members of the Union.

He so hated Washington, for actually being the hero he dreamed to be, that he ran smear campaigns and financed journalist to try and besmirch his good name and run him out of the office of President.

Did he do good things. Yes, many. But more than anything he was at the right place at the right time and wrote like a poet and that his why he is in the pantheon instead of being a rightfully middling figure of the period and a below average president at best.

mfaby: Nice article. Two points, though:

1) There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.
None. Zero. Zip. Again, this comes from a smear by a political
opponent. His two nephews were known to sleep with the slaves but
that is as close to TJ as the researchers can get.


From the official Monticello site....

Link (new window)

Shortly after the DNA test results were released in November 1998, the Thomas Jefferson Foundation formed a research committee consisting of nine members of the foundation staff, including four with Ph.D.s. In January 2000, the committee reported its finding that the weight of all known evidence - from the DNA study, original documents, written and oral historical accounts, and statistical data - indicated a high probability that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Eston Hemings, and that he was perhaps the father of all six of Sally Hemings' children listed in Monticello records - Harriet (born 1795; died in infancy); Beverly (born 1798); an unnamed daughter (born 1799; died in infancy); Harriet (born 1801); Madison (born 1805); and Eston (born 1808).

Since then, a committee commissioned by the Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society, after reviewing essentially the same material, reached different conclusions, namely that Sally Hemings was only a minor figure in Thomas Jefferson's life and that it is very unlikely he fathered any of her children. This committee also suggested in its report, issued in April 2001, that Jefferson's younger brother Randolph (1755-1815) was more likely the father of at least some of Sally Hemings' children.


Even the science can be interpreted to mean whatever you want it to mean. Make of it what you will.

Hoopy Frood: I'm listening to an actor portraying Thomas Jefferson on the radio right now, so I'm getting a kick out of this submission.

Clay Jenkinson FTW. (new window)

mfaby: Nice article. Two points, though:

1) There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.
None. Zero. Zip. Again, this comes from a smear by a political
opponent. His two nephews were known to sleep with the slaves but
that is as close to TJ as the researchers can get.

2) The fact that he owned slaves - for the era and regardless of
his feelings - should not be held against him; he was a man of
his times. It would have been stranger if he had not owned any

He was a truly great man, brillent and flawed, as all great men seem to be. We were lucky to have him.

No argument that he was a great man, but ever great men are not perfect. And the evidence is pretty damn heavy.

Point -Sally traveled to Paris with TJ, an unusual situation for a house slave, particularly since slavery was illegal in France, and any slave who arrived in Paris was considered free. Sally's brother also came along, and did in fact emancipate himself. Sally stayed in service and returned to Virginia with TJ.

Point- The Hemmings family DNA is intermingled with Jefferson family DNA. While it is true that TJs father, uncle and cousins also had the opportunity to sleep with the house slaves, and may have been the progenitors of the Hemmings/Jefferson lineage, TJ was present at Monticello when 6 of Hemming's 7 children would have been conceived, while the other Jefferson men, including his brother Randolph, the most commonly named suspect, were only occasional visitors to the plantation.

Point -Sally may have been an illegitimate half sister to Martha, and was said to bear a resemblance to TJ's late wife. Could this have been a basis for a more complex relationship with Hemmings? Who knows.

Jefferson was an extraordinary mind and a man of singular accomplishments. But...like his peers and relatives, he was still a man of his time, and must be measured as such. The Jefferson men were all men of equitable social stature, education, ethical and cultural benchmarks to TJ, and to exclude him from the list of probable participants based on the notion that he was somehow above that sort of thing, is whitewashing history and hero worship.

miss bliss: It's really interesting, because the Hemings line has almost completely white ancestry-- Sally Hemings herself was only a quarter African-American, and her sons were light enough to pass as white. I'm a direct descendant of TJ, and I've been told the Hemings descendants look very similar. That's all anecdotal, of course.

If you ever have the chance to go to Monticello, I would definitely urge you to do it. It's a beautiful place, and the tour guides have all researched Jefferson individually. Each tour is completely different, and I learn a bunch of new things each time I go.

TITS OR GTFO

For the Democrats:
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." Thomas Jefferson

For the Republicans:
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God." Thomas Jefferson

Link (new window) Many more good ones.

I thought it was a really cool article.

fmmodzelewski: Possibly America's most over rated historical figure. He is loved by theintelligentsia because he wrote beautifully but his actions --deeds not words -- were of a craven backstabber.

The guy knew slavery was wrong. Wrote about it being an evil. Paled around with folks like Thaddeus Kosiuszko who used his Revolutionary War earnings to buy slaves so they could be freed, yet so wanted. Yet was so obsessed with being a neo feudalist land baron that he kept acquiring them.

He managed to never lift a finger in battle. But waged mighty wars or words laying the ground work for do nothings like the members of the Union.

He so hated Washington, for actually being the hero he dreamed to be, that he ran smear campaigns and financed journalist to try and besmirch his good name and run him out of the office of President.

Did he do good things. Yes, many. But more than anything he was at the right place at the right time and wrote like a poet and that his why he is in the pantheon instead of being a rightfully middling figure of the period and a below average president at best.

Why, that is a unique and original post. You seem to be a very thoughtful person.

I always wonder about the founding fathers and the contradiction between their personal actions and public words/acts.

I guess its similar to Lyndon Johnson. A "man of the times" Southern racist, but fought hard for the Civil Rights Act and other such things tooth and nail. Of course, a lot of this was more for his legacy than the actual results of the act.

I wonder what the more modern equivalent will be? Someone fighting hard for gay marriage who is a complete, unabashed homophobe?

I thought everybody knew he occasionally dipped his quill in the inkpot.

PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE

Let us not forget that Thomas Jefferson spent his entire presidency in the act of abolishing the central bank of america... Which was put right back into place a hundred years later and rules our country today.

Perhaps Thomas Jefferson should have spent less time 'Doing' and more time 'Thinking about what he was getting done.'

miss bliss: Zentai: Tom preferred the black coont...

Sorry, Sally Hemings had more white parentage than black.



It only takes one.

He wasn't a cool as this guy: Link (new window)

Dashman: PEOPLE PEOPLE PEOPLE

Let us not forget that Thomas Jefferson spent his entire presidency in the act of abolishing the central bank of america... Which was put right back into place a hundred years later and rules our country today.

Perhaps Thomas Jefferson should have spent less time 'Doing' and more time 'Thinking about what he was getting done.'

It should have stayed abolished.

notmtwain: Was that written by an ten year old? If so, it is adorable.

If not, why write in the style of a 10 year old?

Was the point of the intro about the pyramids, echidna, le corbusier's chapel and kyoto's katsura imperial villa that the writer is an INTERESTING person like JEFFERSON?

Perhaps these were things he studied. It seems unlikely that Jefferson knew about the Kyoto villa (since Japan was closed to foreigners when it was built) and Le Corbusier wasn't born until 1887, so Jefferson couldn't have known about him. (duh)

Why be deliberately OBTUSE?

At the risk of sounding an apologist, I believe what the author was getting at with the introduction was that Jefferson was exactly the person with whom to share personal stories of varied experiences because he would have found them fascinating. Note she trivializes her experiences and moves immediately away from personal disclosure by stating there is "no time" to lose discussing herself. It seems almost critical and urgent to her to get to the focus of her piece. This transition and its urgency is supported later in the story by mention of Jefferson's advice to his daughter about "the want of time" and also the piece's title. I will certainly grant that the introduction seemed extraneous until I reread it and the transition. It could have been executed better.

While I can't comment on the author's motive for style choice, I will say that I found it effective and enjoyable. Discussions of historical figures and the retelling of someone's visit to a place of interest can be very dry, but this treatment gave the topic a light, almost whimsical tone and the on-topic illustrations created a sense of being along on the journey.

Having said that, the piece is one illustrated short story by one author and certainly no one is obligated to agree on matters of personal taste and preference.

"The Central Bank is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the principles and form of our Constitution. . . . I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the Government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs. If the American people ever allow the banks to control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers occupied." - Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson's note in TFA: time wastes too fast: every letter I trace tells me with what rapidity life follows my pen the days and hours of are flying over our heads, like clouds of windy day, never to return

So, what you're saying is, all those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die.

Its_A_Tarp: notmtwain: Was that written by an ten year old? If so, it is adorable.

If not, why write in the style of a 10 year old?

Was the point of the intro about the pyramids, echidna, le corbusier's chapel and kyoto's katsura imperial villa that the writer is an INTERESTING person like JEFFERSON?

Perhaps these were things he studied. It seems unlikely that Jefferson knew about the Kyoto villa (since Japan was closed to foreigners when it was built) and Le Corbusier wasn't born until 1887, so Jefferson couldn't have known about him. (duh)

Why be deliberately OBTUSE?



What did you call me?!

If Sally looked anything like Thandie Newton (who played her in "Jefferson in Paris"), how can you blame the guy?

miss bliss: If you ever have the chance to go to Monticello, I would definitely urge you to do it. It's a beautiful place, and the tour guides have all researched Jefferson individually. Each tour is completely different, and I learn a bunch of new things each time I go.

Also a fun tour-- Mount Vernon.

Hactar: He wasn't a cool as this guy: Link (new window)

Thomas Jefferson is the coolest and probably the smartest guy to ever hold office in this country. He's #1 on my list.

Excellent article, makes me wish I'd seen Monticello when we were back there.

Just another libtard. If he were alive today, Bill O'Reilly would chew him up and spit him out.

hammeroid: Just another libtard. If he were alive today, Bill O'Reilly would chew him up and spit him outbe arrested for sedition.


FTFY

my last name is Jefferson, so I am getting a kick out of these comments...

downstairs 2009-07-03 12:19:41 PM
I always wonder about the founding fathers and the contradiction between their personal actions and public words/acts.

Today, we'd call someone a hypocrite if his public persona varied in any degree from his private life. Back then, they were seen as two different things. One's public image was a character he chose to play. Washington was aware that his role was that of fearless commander. Of course, one had to have the ability.

Dear Jerk: downstairs 2009-07-03 12:19:41 PM
I always wonder about the founding fathers and the contradiction between their personal actions and public words/acts.

Today, we'd call someone a hypocrite if his public persona varied in any degree from his private life. Back then, they were seen as two different things. One's public image was a character he chose to play. Washington was aware that his role was that of fearless commander. Of course, one had to have the ability.

"Why's he running, Dad?"
"Because we have to chase him."
"He didn't do anything wrong."
"Because he's the hero America deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight"

Momzilla59: "Thomas Jefferson is the coolest and probably the smartest guy to ever hold office in this country. He's #1 on my list."

I absolutely agree.


"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"

""Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist."



Let's see someone like that get elected in the modern day. I'd eat my hat.

I feel like going out and learning more about this big-hearted, amazing person.

/What other movies has she been in?

Article fails to mention that he founded UVa. One of his greatest accomplishments.
/Go Hoos

specman: Didn't make it much past the pyramids. Stupid writing style.

Exactly, I was thinking ok let's see this lesson. Barely made it to the pyramids.

I am a direct descendant of Dr. Thomas Walker (9th great grandfather). His most notable achievement in life was to be the first non native american to pass through the Cumberland Gap. His wife, my 9th great grandmother, was a cousin to George Washington

He also was Thomas Jefferson's guardian after Jefferson's father died when Jefferson was only 14 years old.

I just learned this recently from my grandmother who didan extensive family history and learned these things.

/Not that anyone cares, but was still cool to know my roots are so connected to the fouding of this country

dillhole: Article fails to mention that he founded UVa. One of his greatest accomplishments.
/Go Hoos

Wahoowa. I may walk over to the Monticello today.

DirkValentine:

TITS OR GTFO

http://b0.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/00633/07/57/633127570_l.jpg

What? According to the article, the Civil War started in 1852?????? Fails here.

Did he fark the shiat out of bears? Did he have like thirty god-damn dicks?

No?

Then I don't care.

Zamboro Quote 2009-07-03 02:18:32 PM
Momzilla59: "Thomas Jefferson is the coolest and probably the smartest guy to ever hold office in this country. He's #1 on my list."

I absolutely agree.


"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes"

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own"

""Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

"It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist."



Let's see someone like that get elected in the modern day. I'd eat my hat.


Good at making up Jefferson quotes for your atheist hate agenda I see. With exception to the first one which you just rewrote.

I am Sally Hemmings so I am really getting a kick out of these replies.

Some other Jefferson quotes. Many of his quotes would piss off the Democrats.


For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well-organized and armed militia is their best security.

Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor - over each other.

I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

It is in our lives and not our words that our religion must be read.

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

Never spend your money before you have earned it.

No government ought to be without censors; and where the press is free no one ever will.

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.


- What a facist neocon.

The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time.

The republican is the only form of government which is not eternally at open or secret war with the rights of mankind.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.


- AMEN

logruszed: Did he fark the shiat out of bears? Did he have like thirty god-damn dicks?

No?

Then I don't care.

lol! That just made my thread!

I love the Matisse style illustrations.

Mongo Cut Wood: "Good at making up Jefferson quotes for your atheist hate agenda I see. With exception to the first one which you just rewrote."

You have accused me of fabricating quotes. That is a lie, and you are a contemptible liar. Anyone can confirm with a bit of googling that they're taken from his letters to Baron Von Humboldt, H. Spaffer and so on, i.e. private correspondence.

It is no wonder that his public declarations were pious, as he was the president of a nation that was demographically Christian.

I might also point out that Jefferson never said "That government is best which governs least". It was actually Henry David Thoreau. Some of the others you've provided are a bit suspect as well.

I've also found however that the "fables and mythology" quote was from a letter he wrote which has never been produced and thus cannot be confirmed as something he actually said. Fair's fair. Here are the others and a few more, from a site that was good enough to provide sources:


"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." ~1787 letter to his nephew

"Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites." ~Notes on Virginia

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" ~Letter to von Humboldt, 1813

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter." ~Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own" ~Letter to H. Spafford, 1814


By the way, my position is not that Jefferson was an atheist as he lived in more ignorant times and therefore can be excused for his religiosity. He was a deist and a materialist in that he believed angels, souls and even God to have material form. While I can't agree with him on that, his condemnations of religion and Christianity in particular are spot-on.

Here's two more, let me know if I missed any.

"...those who live by mystery & charlatanerie, fearing you would render them useless by simplifying the Christian philosophy, the most sublime & benevolent, but most perverted system that ever shone on man, endeavored to crush your well earnt, & well deserved fame." - Thomas Jefferson to Joseph Priestley, Washington, 21 March 1801

Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

Zamboro: Mongo Cut Wood: "Good at making up Jefferson quotes for your atheist hate agenda I see. With exception to the first one which you just rewrote."

You have accused me of fabricating quotes. That is a lie, and you are a contemptible liar. Anyone can confirm with a bit of googling that they're taken from his letters to Baron Von Humboldt, H. Spaffer and so on, i.e. private correspondence.

It is no wonder that his public declarations were pious, as he was the president of a nation that was demographically Christian.

He wasn't Christian. He was a deist. He believed in God. There is a big difference. He did have some contempt for organized religion, but made it clear that it did not infringe on his rights.

DamnYankees: mfaby: 1) There is absolutely NO PROOF that he slept with Sally Hemmings.
None. Zero. Zip. Again, this comes from a smear by a political
opponent. His two nephews were known to sleep with the slaves but
that is as close to TJ as the researchers can get.

Didn't they do DNA analysis on the black people who claim to be his descendents, and they do match with his known white descendents?

Jefferson had no white son who lived into adulthood, so the Jefferson males they tested were descendants of his uncle, Field Jefferson. Thus the DNA match discovered in the descendants of one of Sally Hemings' children showed only that that child was fathered by one of several Jefferson males known to live at or frequent Monticello at the time she became pregnant.

As for his supposed "relationship" with Hemings while he was in France, the descendants of the son born at that time show no Jefferson DNA.

Jefferson DNA studies (new window)

badhatharry: "He wasn't Christian. He was a deist. He believed in God. There is a big difference. He did have some contempt for organized religion, but made it clear that it did not infringe on his rights."

Uh, yeah. I know. I don't know where you got the impression that I (A) thought he was something other than a deist, and (B) don't know the difference between deist and Christian.

Zamboro: badhatharry: "He wasn't Christian. He was a deist. He believed in God. There is a big difference. He did have some contempt for organized religion, but made it clear that it did not infringe on his rights."

Uh, yeah. I know. I don't know where you got the impression that I (A) thought he was something other than a deist, and (B) don't know the difference between deist and Christian.

It is no wonder that his public declarations were pious, as he was the president of a nation that was demographically Christian.

It thought you were suggesting that his pious public declarations were insincere and that he did not actually believe in God.

badhatharry: "It thought you were suggesting that his pious public declarations were insincere and that he did not actually believe in God."

Ah, no. But it's not a binary issue, is it? He could have believed in god (and he did) despite harboring very critical views about Christianity, views he contradicted in his public speeches because many of the things he's said in private about Christianity and the Bible would have incited riots had he repeated them at the podium. That's what I was getting at. Let's not pretend there wasn't an enormous chilling effect in play at the time, even proper atheists would have masqueraded as Christians unless they were influential and popular enough for other reasons that they could get away with it.