amanogowa: I have read your posts -- and see you pretending to be supporting pro-choice, but then going around and doing damage in your 'defense'.

For the life of me the term for that escapes me.

What have I stated that constitutes "prentending" to support pro choice?

This is where you are just plain wrong. Pro-choice != pro euphemistic bullshiat. It's ending a human life. It is the point of abortion today, it was the point of abortion 1000 years ago.

My initial post is quite clear - there is only one real use case for abortion and we are all aware of what it is. I think you're so used to arguing the subtle differences of what is and is not human life in order to justify abortion, that you don't bother to reflect on the more simple obvious facts (that point again...).

There are more important things then a child's life.

lordargent: My bloodline is descended from cannibals.

Would you care to participate in one of our religious rites? You would be the guest entrée of honor.

FTFY

If the child of a religious nut dies because of denying medical care, execute the parents. It'll certainly keep the from breeding.

zabadu: So how do they pray to God if they can't say his name out loud?

I think they hum it.

No links to The God that Failed? (new window)

Song was written about James Hetfield's (brother?) who died because his parents didn't believe in any medicine but prayer.

Atheists kill more children through drunk driving than this.

rjw25: Statistically insignificant.

People_are_Idiots: I will say this is a very good point, and I agree with this. I don't let my religious beliefs cloud the choice women must face in terms of abortion. As wrong as I think it is, I think women should have a choice in ending the life before it comes out (Course, I'd also wish instead of protests in front of abortion clinics, I'd love to see single men standing out front with signs saying "Pick me! I'd love your kids as my own!").

/are we not a complex series of cells derived from a simple fertilization of an egg by a sperm?

THIS. (And I'm not even religious.)

Since 1975, millions of children have died in this country because their parents thought medicine, not prayer, would cure them. God bless America

submitter: Since 1975, 274 children have died in this country because their parents thought prayer, not medicine, would cure them. God bless America

Bah! Amateurs ^{(^)}

manimal2878: It's a shame if you belive in superstitious nonsense that you can get away with child abuse and neglect depending on what nonsense you believe in still.

As opposed to just ripping the baby into pieces on it's way out, leaving it to die in a bin, or sucking out it's brain with a vacuum.

Yeah, Atheist treatment of children is WAAAAAAAAAY superior.

Mongo cut wood: Atheists kill more children through drunk driving than this.

To be fair alot of the people who drive drunk are likey christians. however, alot a small percentage of the high numbers would be an atheist. So yes more then 274 "people" have been killed by drunk driver in the last 30 years.

/claims to be a Christian or something like that.

And how many children dead from the mother paying 200 dollars to get a vacuum service? Millions? Sorry but the leftist war on children far far trumps anything prayer has done.

hetheeme: manimal2878: It's a shame if you belive in superstitious nonsense that you can get away with child abuse and neglect depending on what nonsense you believe in still.

As opposed to just ripping the baby into pieces on it's way out, leaving it to die in a bin, or sucking out it's brain with a vacuum.

Yeah, Atheist treatment of children is WAAAAAAAAAY superior.


abiigdog: And how many children dead from the mother paying 200 dollars to get a vacuum service? Millions? Sorry but the leftist war on children far far trumps anything prayer has done.


Trolls, retarded, or both? We'll let you decide!

From the CDC:

The percentage distribution of abortions by known weeks of gestation has shifted slightly since the late 1970s. From 1992 (when detailed data on early abortions were first available) through 2002, data have indicated steady increases in procedures performed at (35,36). Abortions performed early in pregnancy are associated with lower risks for mortality and morbidity (37,38). The proportions of abortions performed later in pregnancy (>13 weeks) have varied minimally since 1992. The gestational age at which an abortion is obtained can be influenced by multiple factors in addition to those for which surveillance data are available (i.e., age, race, and ethnicity). These additional factors include level of education, availability and accessibility of abortion services, timing of confirmation of pregnancy, timing of personal decision-making, timing of prenatal diagnosis, level of fear of discovery of pregnancy, and denial of pregnancy (39--41).

To be fair, those 274 only died cause I prayed real hard that they would. You have any idea how much time it takes to outpray superreligious types?

swangoatman: Farkazoid: Add that total to the Thousands of Children of Jehovah's Witness parents who have died for not allowing Blood Transfusions, and you begin to realize what a bad problem this really is.

I am so thankful to be out of the CULT known as Jehovah's Witnesses. They have taken away the lives of so many innocent children.

You troll!!! you lie!!!! you have shiat on your face for just hitting google alert " my old religion".

WTF??? Can you please explain what you are talking about? Your reply to me is a little confusing...

Thanks in advance.

Howabout you prayer people figure out why those prayers don't magically stop unwanted pregnancies or make the power fail in a clinic?

logruszed: Howabout you prayer people figure out why those prayers don't magically stop unwanted pregnancies or make the power fail in a clinic?

This. If prayer really worked, why hasn't abortion been stopped?

PenguinTheRed: Wow, a whopping 274 in 34 years, huh? Meanwhile, an estimated 225,000 people die EVERY YEAR from iatrogenic causes (when a patient dies as a direct result of treatments by a physician, whether it is from misdiagnosis of the ailment or from adverse drug reactions used to treat the illness)

Think about where medical science would be in the absence of religious influence.

Didn't read the whole thread, so please forgive if this has been discussed but...

274 kids died because their parents "denied them proper care" based on religious grounds? Sad as that is, 274 deaths is NOTHING compared to the millions killed by the drug and medical industries over the same time.

Example: A recent study (pops) revealed that proton pump inhibitors (stomach acid blockers like Aciphex, Nexium, Prevacid, Prilosec, and Protonix - you've seen the TV ads) KILL over 33,000 Americans EVERY YEAR by increasing chances for acquiring pneumonia while patients are hospitalized.

Non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (aspirin, Tylenol, Advil, Nexium, and the like) kill thousands more EVERY YEAR, mostly from internal hemorrhage and liver failure.

Here's a quote from a publication of the National Institutes of Health (US Government) published in 2008, and titled:

Realizing the Potential of Pharmacogenomics:
Opportunities and Challenges
Report of the
Secretary's Advisory Committee on Genetics, Health, and Society (pops)

One study found that approximately 2.2 million people per year in the United States experienced an ADR [Adverse Drug Reaction] during a hospital stay or were admitted to the hospital for an ADR. This study also reported that ADRs account for approximately 106,000 deaths per year, which would rank ADRs between the fourth and sixth leading causes of death in the United States, depending on whether liberal or conservative estimates are used.41 The economic burden associated with drug-related morbidity and mortality is substantial, with annual costs estimated earlier this decade at more than $177 billion.

[Note: The above was published BEFORE the release of the study estimating 33,000 deaths from proton pump inhibitors]

"Safe and effective" my ass. These LEGAL AND APPROVED drugs kill EIGHT TIMES as many people every year as ALL illicit drug use COMBINED.

War on Drugs, anyone?

I'm no religious person (cured - no thanks to medicine) but given the above figures, I'd say "prayer" would have a tough time competing with the grim reaper that is the pharmaceutical industry.

In fact, it almost looks as though the Rx industry has become a "religion" of its own, with well over 200 million Americans entrusting it with their BLIND FAITH, believing that they will be healed!

This whole thing sounds like a "War of the Gods" to me.

SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

You are misinformed. This country was not founded on religion. Go ahead, study your history. Religion is not a 'right'. The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion. The Constitution does not give anyone rights, it simply limits what the government may or may not do.

Pruritic Perineum: SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

You are misinformed. This country was not founded on religion. Go ahead, study your history. Religion is not a 'right'. The First Amendment states that Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion. The Constitution does not give anyone rights, it simply limits what the government may or may not do.

"...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Wow. Talk about misinformed.

When prayer didn't bring back my hair, I figured it wouldn't be able to cure cancer.

Squidgilum: "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Wow. Talk about misinformed.

Yeah, well, my religion requires that I rape at least one baby a week, or face the fires of Hell. Why do I not get to freely exercise my religion?

Man On Pink Corner: Squidgilum: "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Wow. Talk about misinformed.

Yeah, well, my religion requires that I rape at least one baby a week, or face the fires of Hell. Why do I not get to freely exercise my religion?

That's been covered, Scarecrow.

/afraid of fire, are we?

onebadgungan: That's been covered, Scarecrow.

Really? Save me the trouble, what was the outcome?

274 in 34 years...

And how many died from the chemo, surgery, meds, hospital infections, ect?
How many kids are suffering through chemo or recovering from surgery RIGHT NOW only to buy a couple extra months?

Man On Pink Corner: Squidgilum: "...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Wow. Talk about misinformed.

Yeah, well, my religion requires that I rape at least one baby a week, or face the fires of Hell. Why do I not get to freely exercise my religion?

Obviously, we don't allow for illegal behavior. Or, rather, we shouldn't. My point is not that prayer over medicine should be allowed, just that it's asinine to put a period after "...make no laws respecting an establishment of religion," when there is more to that sentence.

It's still better than Jenny Mcarthy's body count.

EsteeFlwrPot 2009-07-02 03:37:32 PM
"Is this the thread where people shiat on religion because some people don't fully understand the concept of faith so that must mean all religious people are insane backwards cavemen that believe in fairy tales and religion should be outlawed?"

Why, YES!

"Since 1975, 274 children have died..."

Hmm...giving that the number that died due to medical malpractice, prayer seems the safer route.

Armandeus: "Is this the thread where people shiat on religion because some people don't fully understand the concept of faith so that must mean all religious people are insane backwards cavemen that believe in fairy tales and religion should be outlawed?"


I have never on FARK seen anyone claim 'religion should be outlawed.'

Is this the thread where religious people attack atheists for things they didn't even say?

Why yes it is!

Seen quite a few of those threads...

For all of those who continue to state that prayer killed less than medicine, here's where the real comparison is:

(deaths due to malpractice) much less than (deaths due to lack of medical treatment, of which religious denial is a subset)

Also, even if the number of deaths due to religious denial is far less than the deaths from malpractice, this does not in any way prove that prayer has any effect whatsoever.
To prove that, you would need 1500 terminal patients, medicate 500, do nothing to 500, and only pray for 500, and then compare the results.
Right now, we have umpteen millions saved by modern medicine, many more millions (including all of history as well) of people dying without those treatments, and only a relatively few cases where religious parents condemn their children to death by prayer-neglect. Since we are talking about since the 70s, we are not including all who died due to religious superstitions about illness.
Anyway, whatever.

The quote in my previous post is to be attributed to EsteeFlwrPot not Armandeus, don't know what happened there. Was trying to quote the whole thing.

It's OK, Kliffoth, I forgive you. ;-)
//A forgiving atheist! Ultrareligious heads asplode.

sgtbarthel: People_are_Idiots: pwhp_67: See, there's this little thing called "revisionist history" where Christians live in this other reality. In that reality, the Founding Fathers were all devout Christians, probably Catholics, and they created this country for the Pope. That's why they were allowed to own slaves and keep women from voting: It's all in the Bible.

Someday our public school system will be more explicit when teaching history and some of this nonsense will go away...

Funny, I'm a Christian, and that definitely makes no sense....

PWHP_67 was trying to explain how our Founding Fathers weren't really Christian moralists as they are currently and mistakenly believed to have been. But lies repeated over and over again often become truths and PWHP_67 hopes that someday the children in our schools will be taught that our Founding Fathers were actually deists, atheists, and agnostics and believed religion had no place in the formation of America's new government. Especially after witnessing the religious persecutions in Europe during the 17th and early 18th centuries. However, they did recognize freedom to practice whichever religion you chose as a very important right.

Hope this helps clear up what he meant.

Mhmm, but the way he said it implies that the schools teach this. I realize most were considered deists, and others still would have considered heretics by orthodox standards (Thomas Jefferson was considered Episcopal with Deist leanings). I have no problem with atheists, but some (even my aunt unfortunately) think it's their holy duty to "recruit" members (read enforce). It's ok to be different to me, otherwise what's the point of life? Hope though for those who still think all FF were pure-bred Christians, give them a link below.

Reference on religion and founding fathers: Link (new window)

Mr Rusty Shackleford: People_are_Idiots: I will say this is a very good point, and I agree with this. I don't let my religious beliefs cloud the choice women must face in terms of abortion. As wrong as I think it is, I think women should have a choice in ending the life before it comes out (Course, I'd also wish instead of protests in front of abortion clinics, I'd love to see single men standing out front with signs saying "Pick me! I'd love your kids as my own!").

/are we not a complex series of cells derived from a simple fertilization of an egg by a sperm?

The world needs more religious people with opinions like your own.

I feel that a woman who was wrongfully dumped by a guy might not abort if she found a real guy that'd love her and the child to replace him. It'd not get rid of abortion, but it would lessen the necessity of it as a second form of birth control, the woman gets a man she might want, and a single guy would get a love to last a lifetime (hopefully).

[mean streak mode] of course, the money the idiot has to give to raise the kid wouldn't be bad too. [/mean streak mode]

People_are_idiots: "I have no problem with atheists, but some (even my aunt unfortunately) think it's their holy duty to "recruit" members "

I don't understand your reasoning. What's so different about atheists that we're not allowed to spread our position by argument? That's how evolution is supplanting creationism. It's how globularism and heliocentrism gradually supplanted Biblical cosmology. In order for correct ideas to supplant incorrect ones, they must be permitted to compete.

Argument isn't intolerance unless you're so insecure in your beliefs that you cannot tolerate being argued with.

Notice the article said "there have been at least 274 known cases of U.S. children who have died after medical care was withheld on religious grounds". In my mind 274 cases is way too many as it is, but we don't know what the real number is. Having a three-year-old of my own, it breaks my heart every time I hear these stories of how parents sit and do nothing as their child dies.

"I wonder how many childrens' lives have been saved by parents who used prayer rather than medicine. I'm guessing it's not "0", since there are all sorts of complications from medication, surgery, etc..." Keep wondering...there is no way to prove that though if I venture to guess, maybe prayer "worked" only in situations where the problem was not life-threatening or the parent was at least rational enough to seek medical attention in addition to the prayer.

"I would like to see how many deaths have happened in that same time dealing with malpractice, allergic reactions to meds, or infections caught from operations. I have no idea what the numbers are, but I would bet that they would be close to the same." This is a terrible argument. First of all, we are talking preventable deaths in the first place. Something like Pneumonia antibiotics are well tested and have well above a 90% recovery rate. Sure there is a chance for a bad reaction\doctor but conversely there is probably close to 0% recovery rate with prayer alone.

"And every year, 250, 000 people die from medical treatment which they thought would cure them." Hello, look at the big picture here, we have to be looking at percentages...a vast majority of people are not these religious nut jobs and actually seek medical attention when needed. So yes, medicine definitely does not work all the time but you can't compare apples to oranges. The population who actually seeks medical attention is going to be much, much larger than these fringe groups. Also, of these 250,000 that died, how do you know that they weren't prayed for also? With as religious as this country is, I would say a vast majority of them were prayed for.

Not sure if you are joking when you say "God doesn't heal amputees because our bodies aren't designed to regenerate limbs from scratch", but the fact that there are no known cases of amputees healing is an extremely valid argument. The fact that we weren't designed to regenerate limbs shouldn't matter since God is apparently all-powerful.

I can't believe that there are actually people on this board who see no issue just because it is their religious beliefs. I am definitely all for religious freedoms, but this stuff should be kept at church. When your religious beliefs cause harm or death, then you have stepped over the line. You are a criminal rather you believe in a god or not. I'm so tired of anything done in the name of religion getting a pass because people are afraid call bs on it because someone might get offended. Was Jim Jones not a criminal for convincing his congregation to drink the poisoned Kool-Aid? Were the 9/11 terrorists not criminals? Both things were done in the name of a religion. This is a way slippery slope!

For you that support what these people have done, do us a favor and next time you get deathly ill stay home and suffer. While you are at it throw away all your band-aids, aspirin and cough-medicine. Hell you might as well throw away all your food and water and just pray to your god that he doesn't let you starve to death.