Ahh, but how many kids also got better without treatment? A lot more than 274 I'll wager.

/meh

How many kids have died because their parents gave 'em fireworks in that same period? God Bless America.

If the Government steps in and forces medical treatment and the child still dies, does the Government go to jail?

Thud'nBlunder: Hmmm. 274 deaths in 35 years? Almost 8 per year! Why, that's almost as big a disaster as the swine flu!

Why does anyone care? During those same 35 years about 3.5 million people died from taking properly prescribed, properly taken pharmaceutical drugs, and twice as many died as the result of stupid doctor tricks in hospitals.

Also unreported is how many kids in these religious families got sick and didn't die.

The real issue is that the controllers can't stand having anyone outside their control. The minute one of these sick kids with hyper-religious parents gets public attention, they move in with a SWAT team, lest anyone else get the idea they are free. The actual fate of the kid is irrelevant.

Damn you and your reason and logic!

Get the hell out! You have no place here! Now go!

joaquin closet: How many kids have died because their parents gave 'em fireworks in that same period? God Bless America.

Not sure but 0 - 19 yd olds suicide by firearms was 810 in just 2003.

TF2_Pyro: God has a plan for us all. By Praying, you admit that you either do not believe in the plan, or think God is wrong in what he has done to your child. By Praying to God or a Saint to change something that is happening to you, you are disrespecting God more than you think an Atheist might be.

that might work for Calvinists but since no major religion believes in Predestination aside from them gonna have to give you the big old FAIL on that one. I feel bad actually because I know how smug you felt sitting there having thought of that all by yourself.

And every year, 250, 000 people die from medical treatment which they thought would cure them.

What's your point?

Link (new window)

"Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA)
Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of
Hygiene and Public Health describes how the US health care system
may contribute to poor health.

ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:
12,000 -----unnecessary surgery (8)
7,000 -----medication errors in hospitals (9)
20,000 -----other errors in hospitals (10)
80,000 -----infections in hospitals (10)
106,000 ----non-error, negative effects of drugs (2)
These total to 250,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!!"

why is it that everyone cares about babies and children, but adults can go fark themselves? babies and children are just a few years away from being shiathead adults themselves. so why get worked up about them dying because their parents make poor decisions. won't they most likely be making their own poor decisions eventually?

/grumpy

kronicfeld: SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

What if your religion believes that it's okay to f*ck eight year olds?

Then you become a Senator with a (D) after your name.

joaquin closet: How many kids have died because their parents gave 'em fireworks in that same period? God Bless America.

(551 unintentional fire/burn minus nonfirework) times (30) = (a crapload)?

TheGreatGildersleeve

Thank you.

G A M E O V E R

zabadu: Q: What is a mature minor?
A:: A mature minor is a person sixteen years or over and under the age of eighteen "who has demonstrated the ability and capacity to manage his (or her) own affairs and to live wholly or partially independent of his (or her) parents or guardian.

I.E. Emancipated.

I think that is more emancipatable. ;-)

and millions have died because frkking libs don't believe that killing babies during pregnancy is wrong, so what?

manimal2878: It's a shame if you belive in superstitious nonsense that you can get away with child abuse and neglect depending on what nonsense you believe in still.

Tell that to all the thalidomide babies and other nightmares wrought by scientists.

TheGreatGildersleeve: kronicfeld: SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

What if your religion believes that it's okay to f*ck eight year olds?

Then you become a Senator with a (D) after your name.

A (R) if they are boys.

amanogowa: kronicfeld: SpeshilEdjukashin: What if your religion believes that it's okay to f*ck eight year olds?

Then you are Catholic.

Pure Win.

amanogowa: TheGreatGildersleeve: kronicfeld: SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

What if your religion believes that it's okay to f*ck eight year olds?

Then you become a Senator with a (D) after your name.

A (R) if they are boys.

A member of American Federation of Teachers if you meant "f*ck" figuratively.

275 OMG THATS SO MANY AMERICA SUX! 9 a yr! This issue is very pressing!

lriG_eikoH: why is it that everyone cares about babies and children, but adults can go fark themselves? babies and children are just a few years away from being shiathead adults themselves. so why get worked up about them dying because their parents make poor decisions. won't they most likely be making their own poor decisions eventually?

/grumpy

That's where you're wrong! Even the anti-abortionists only care about babies when they are just cells inside a woman. Once they're born, they don't give a rats...well, you know.

archichris: 274?

So that puts fundamental religion at like #15,879 on the list of things that kill children since 1972?

I thought Fundies were so much more annoying than that.

So... letting your child die = annoying?
Good to know.

zabadu: lriG_eikoH: why is it that everyone cares about babies and children, but adults can go fark themselves? babies and children are just a few years away from being shiathead adults themselves. so why get worked up about them dying because their parents make poor decisions. won't they most likely be making their own poor decisions eventually?

/grumpy

That's where you're wrong! Even the anti-abortionists only care about babies when they are just cells inside a woman. Once they're born, they don't give a rats...well, you know.

Republicans only want to force women to have babies because they are misogynistic and they hate babies once they're born because they don't believe in any social welfare programs while democrats will support you for life if you're quick enough as a fetus to avoid the coat hanger and make it out alive.

Very simplistic and... well, it's Fark. Well done.

stewmadness: and millions have died because frkking libs don't believe that killing babies during pregnancy is wrong in my carpet just a minute ago, so what?

We were talking about born living human children.

Nexzus: Not necessarily.

Sarcasm, look it up.

mudpants: stewmadness: and millions have died because frkking libs don't believe that killing babies during pregnancy is wrong in my carpet just a minute ago, so what?

We were talking about born living human children.

umm duh mudpants. Sperm are the same thing as a fetus until the fetus leaves the birth canal.

SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

Personally I don't care one way or the other. I think of it as evolution in action.

ZipSplat: 275 OMG THATS SO MANY AMERICA SUX! 9 a yr! This issue is very pressing!

Truth. Personally speaking, it's not nearly enough.

CapitolG: logruszed: Rabbinic councils also generally agree that the use of "G_d" as a substitute is pretty farking pointless and only do it out of fear of offending others

I say Error on the side of caution, if somebody's faith is so consuming that they see the world "God" as holding the same power As the Hebrew name, what is the harm?


logruszed: the whole "G_d" thing has no real tradition behind it and only serves as an artificial divide between people

But they want that divide, in the same way the Phelps clan wants to be separated from the rest of the Christen community... I get it is not healthy, but to each his own.

The big reason I see no issue in it? I would want others to respect my believes (No matter how crazy they seem).... So I do the same.

In theory it does no harm, in practice it allows for the creation of a belief in an offense where no actual offense was intended or taken place.

It also circumvents intent on the part of the projecting party and intellectual capacity for reason on the part of the recipient.

If there is any single tenant of my ancestry which I hold sacrosanct, it is not the God who failed to protect us nor to give Abraham his many kingdoms, his "chosen people", from harm it is the idea of debate of all aspects of our faith. Judaism is under attack from within in a more insidious manner than the more obvious attacks from without, through subverting our own drive to discern and question.

And as an active member of the world community and a user of language I object on principle to any system that advocates placating the irrational beliefs of any group, even some that of my own.

Hell, that is precisely what this thread is about.

And I encourage you to read this article: Euphemism Treadmill (new window)

SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

Assuming you are not just trolling, the problem is selective interpretation of religious beliefs. Nowhere in the bible, for example, does it actually say to forgo medicine.

It does say to stone people to death for any number of reasons, yet we would oppose religious types doing that, I assume. It even advocates the killing of children.

However, I am on the fence about this, because the kids would probably grow up to be as retarded as their parents, burdening the world with more stupid.

iaazathot: SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

Assuming you are not just trolling, the problem is selective interpretation of religious beliefs. Nowhere in the bible, for example, does it actually say to forgo medicine.

It does say to stone people to death for any number of reasons, yet we would oppose religious types doing that, I assume. It even advocates the killing of children.

However, I am on the fence about this, because the kids would probably grow up to be as retarded as their parents, burdening the world with more stupid.

that's kind of the point of this whole thread though. Where does the freedom of religion end and the rights of children begin ( or rights of anyone for that matter ).

Why does a religion have to be officially recognized by the government to practice? The obvious answer is to prevent people from starting a religion where drugs are part of the ritual. Rastafarians had to be officially recognized along with AI tribes in the SW who use peyote. However, it is still a bit concerning that we can worship how we please, just as long as the government approves.

logruszed: And as an active member of the world community and a user of language I object on principle to any system that advocates placating the irrational beliefs of any group, even some that of my own.

I may just be a wishy washy world citizen, and maybe a world class jerkwad. I feel it is OK for folks to place irrational beliefs on others.... I just do not expect the Others to take it serious, but it is not too hard to entertain their beliefs(although I get I may be causing friction in the long run.)

Thanks for the Euphemism Treadmill link.

HEY SUBBY! Why don't you report how many children were killed by MEDICAL ERROR in the past 30 years because I guarantee you it is higher 274.


NOT that I am in favor of prayer over medicine but Subby is acting pretty high and mighty with his 'scare headline.

Just to play Jesus' Advocate here for a second, how many children were saved by prayer over medicine?

Um, just a suggestion but why can't you do both prayer and medicine. Can't see how they could be mutually exclusive. Use prayer to call on God to give the physician the smarts and tools to save your child. Seems like a pretty good tag team to me.

Javelin22: Natural Selection in action. Plus, thats 274 less fundies who grow up to have fundies of their own.

This

mfaby [TotalFark] 2009-07-02 05:46:31 PM
"HEY SUBBY! Why don't you report how many children were killed by MEDICAL ERROR in the past 30 years because I guarantee you it is higher 274."

That's really not the point. According the Pro-Life definition of 'murder' these children were murdered by their parents the law did nothing to stop them.

skullkrusher: Sperm are the same thing as a fetus until the fetus leaves the birth canal.

huh?

Claude Ballse: Just to play Jesus' Advocate here for a second, how many children were saved by prayer over medicine?

0, why do you ask?

mudpants: skullkrusher: Sperm are the same thing as a fetus until the fetus leaves the birth canal.

huh?

Ignore him. One of these days he will drown in the shower and free us from his presence on Fark.

late to the party as usual.
still, i hate to see this kind of stuff go on because of how stupid it is. I mean why does the mother that spanks her child in public get child protective services called to her house and the overly religious mother that refuses to take care of her child and let whatever deity she prays to take care of her dying offspring get off so easy? My point in this is why should the government care? Later on the child taken into custody is more than likely to become a failure in life that depends on welfare because he or she got taken from his or her biological family by the state. Shouldnt it be up to the parents to take care of their offspring? I understand if Cleetus is an unfit parent but why must child services become involved in that and let Mother Mary keep her half dead kid? I understand religious tolerance, sure the kid is in trouble but the kid is the parents responsibility the state should be worried that the kid is dying of the flu rather than the methods employed by parents to rear their children into place and raise them to be hardworking members of soceity.

/i never got spanked
//because i learned after the first time
///two weeks into 18 years old and i already have a job
////because i can say Yes Maam and Yes Sir.
Teach kids respect, teach them discipline, beat them like bobby beat whitney if needed, or risk having little snowflakes that dont know what respect is.

amanogowa:


May you have an interesting life.
And if you want some perspective on the original topic instead of whatever that just was
look HERE (new window)

So for every thousand people that die due to iatrogenic causes (doctors' mistakes), one child dies because their parents didn't want to take that risk.

Where's the problem?

Statistically insignificant.

SpeshilEdjukashin: See, there's this little thing called freedom of religion... It's a shame that activist judges don't believe in it anymore, because it is one of the main ideals that our country was founded on, and supposedly one of our "rights."

Lefties only forget the first part of the Freedom of Religion clause: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Righties disregard the whole thing.

"... or free exercise thereof".

What if the kid wants tangible medical aid, but the parents are adamant on asking an invisible sky wizard? That would be violation of the second portion.

not sure I get your point... States can't deny people equal protection of the laws. Got it. What's that have to do with the Freedom of Religion?

Parents are claiming First Amendment rights to withhold medical attention from their children according to their faith. However, the State has an obligation under the Fourteenth Amendment to protect these children and prosecute the parents should they be responsible for any harm to their children.

Arrg... got it backwards. Lefties disregard the second part, while righties the whole thing.

MadCat221: Arrg... got it backwards. Lefties disregard the second part, while righties the whole thing.

Never seen a 'leftie' say you cannot practice any religion you want. Mostly they don't want to be forced to join in or pay for it.

And how many kids were killed by abortion?

How many kids die due to their parent's belief in herbal medicines, or their Pagan beliefs (witch doctors for example)?

Yogimus: And how many kids were killed by abortion?

0, why do you ask?

Yogimus: And how many kids were killed by abortion?

Again, zero. Cells are not babies.

PS: You might want to read a thread before posting. We've covered this.

pwhp_67: See, there's this little thing called "revisionist history" where Christians live in this other reality. In that reality, the Founding Fathers were all devout Christians, probably Catholics, and they created this country for the Pope. That's why they were allowed to own slaves and keep women from voting: It's all in the Bible.

Someday our public school system will be more explicit when teaching history and some of this nonsense will go away...

Funny, I'm a Christian, and that definitely makes no sense....