DamnYankees: Even if you think this guy is a douche, this is still a stupid decision. How the hell is he supposed to repay those loans if he's barred from from doing the job which would give him a salary?

If you don't eat your meat you can't have any pudding. How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?

obviously he's more qualified to practice in the field of finance... than law... or maybe he should be in politics... given the size of his cojones... he's certainly qualified for that. (throw in a couple of divorces and affairs, of course) probably never paid any of those 'voluntary' income taxes either...

bbickel: To those of you who believe he should be allowed to work so he can pay off his debts: If he'd been disbarred for embezzling funds from clients, would you argue that he should be allowed to practice law again because that would be the best way for him to earn enough money to repay his victims? Same principle, really.

Yes: That's known as justice. The alternative is mere punishment, and it is lazy and unsafe.

As long as this man is supervised, he should be allowed to make good on his debt. He did have the gumption to try four times; that shows a great deal of character, in my opinion. He might simply be unable to apply himself enthusiastically elsewhere - it happens. Punishment and unproductive restriction are as useless in career matters as they are in parenting a child or with respect to schooling. Guidance to independence takes effort.

If people simply don't care about real justice, let them "just" say so and dispense with the merely retributive arguments dressed as ethics.

DamnYankees: kronicfeld: In 26 years he couldn't have bagged groceries or dug a ditch to make payments?



Agrees.

barefoot in the head: bbickel: To those of you who believe he should be allowed to work so he can pay off his debts: If he'd been disbarred for embezzling funds from clients, would you argue that he should be allowed to practice law again because that would be the best way for him to earn enough money to repay his victims? Same principle, really.

Yes: That's known as justice. The alternative is mere punishment, and it is lazy and unsafe.

As long as this man is supervised, he should be allowed to make good on his debt. He did have the gumption to try four times; that shows a great deal of character, in my opinion. He might simply be unable to apply himself enthusiastically elsewhere - it happens. Punishment and unproductive restriction are as useless in career matters as they are in parenting a child or with respect to schooling. Guidance to independence takes effort.

If people simply don't care about real justice, let them "just" say so and dispense with the merely retributive arguments dressed as ethics.

it takes an unbelievably minimal amount of communication from sallie mae to keep your loans from going into collection. the part in the article where he says he didn't hear from them for 2 years? please ... people who are owed money don't sit around for 2 years and then start trying to find you. plus, it's not like he forgot he borrowed over 200k.

in other words, real justice happened. an organization that demands responsible behavior declined admission to an irresponsible person

Gyrfalcon: FTA: Mr. Bowman concedes that he has never made a payment on his loans, partly because of medical and other deferrals and problems with his lender. But he says he intends to make good, adding that his only hope is to begin practicing law

So the guy admits he's NEVER paid a dime on his loans. In 26 years. I've got a hefty debt with Sallie Mae myself, but I've found them incredibly reasonable to deal with over the years; in the past, when my first round of student loans came due, I was in fact able to make token payments of $20-50 a month when I wasn't able to pay more. Normally they don't care how much you pay, as long as you keep in touch and try to pay something.

While it's entirely possible there was some error in transferring his private loans over to Sallie Mae, that hardly excuses him from not paying all this time.

Really? Before I went back to school, Sallie Mae told me I had to pay the monthly payments in full despite the fact I wasn't making enough at the time.

Phinn: mattharvest: DamnYankees: mattharvest: A fiduciary duty is a pretty commonsense term, and it refers to whenever you have contractual obligations pertaining to finances.

You're flat-out wrong.

A debt arising from a loan is not a form of fiduciary obligation.

Thus, the failure to repay a loan is not a breach of a fiduciary duty.

Suck it.

Yep. DamnYankees and Phinn are correct. Debtors do not have "Fiduciary" responsibilities. mattharvest should look the word up.

considering how over-saturated the legal profession is right now, and how much more saturated it will become in the next few years, he is better off going into some other area.

[amending DamnYankees' Farky note to read: "thinks a 26-year student-loan deadbeat is worthy to practice law, is also idiot"]

MrsYankees: "hey honey..."
damnYankees: "yes dear."
MrsYankees: "the baby sitter looks familiar..."
damnYankees: "oh yeah, it's that guy that was in the news for molesting his children, and making them work in that sex ring"
MrsYankees: "what? how could we leave them with a man like that!"
damnYankees: "honey...give the man a chance, he's never whored out someone else's children...just his own. He deserves a shot"

cry0fan: considering how over-saturated the legal profession is right now, and how much more saturated it will become in the next few years, he is better off going into some other area.

Which area?

The only job sectors that I see opening up in the next few years are mercenaries, warlords and professional revolutionaries.

I know the guy was sick for a while but he was well enough physically and financially to go to school. I don't think there was any alternative other than holding up his liscense.

How in the world can you go that long and not pay student loans? I was late for a while (about a year or so when I was out of work) and the state attorney general's office was all over my ass. I had to work it out or they were gonna screw me.

Not fit to practice law, has no ethical standards. I vote for a life of poverty and dying alone in a pool of urine.

WaltzingMathilda: in other words, real justice happened. an organization that demands responsible behavior declined admission to an irresponsible person

The loans agency, which might have seen a glimmer of hope that their loans could be recouped, might not call that real justice, which seeks to satisfy all parties as best as it might. The man could be supervised - he did pass the test. Of course, the appearance of irresponsibility is a real mark against his character - maybe he could work as a law clerk to test his willingness to make good. I just think something is better than mere nothing. It seems lazy and fatalistic.

Yeah. This guy was basically screwed on admission to law school. It's a shame that law schools do not do a better job before admission of vetting students who won't be able to practice. At minimum, there should be much better preliminary education about the substantial costs and risks associated with law school.

I know plenty of people who would be fit to be lawyers but are excluded for having missed just a few MBEs. I feel more pity for them than this guy. Apparently, in order to evoke the pity of the New York Times, it is better to be a colossal screw up.

"Applicant has not presently established the character and general fitness requisite for an attorney and counselor-at-law."

What's the problem? Do they think he's intelligent, helpful, and honest?

TheSignPost: Not fit to practice law, has no ethical standards. I vote for a life of poverty and dying alone in a pool of urine.

Sounds like Friday night around here...

Well-read Baron:

Plus the dude took 4 tries to pass the bar exam. He's MINIMALLY competent on his very BEST day, which was probably the day he took the MBE the one time he actually passed it.



JFK Jr. took the bar 3 times before he passed.


/just sayin'
//'course, he's feeding the fishies now.

It's kinda like the people who can't get hired because of their low credit rating. If you owe any large amount of money, they assume you're a criminal that should be deported to a different continent instead of hired.

deadapostle: You know you must be a real piece of shiat if your character isn't up to the standards required to be a lawyer.

THIS. I thought you had to show you were a crooked piece of shiat to become a lawyer. Who knew?

SALLIE MAE IS A CRUEL, CRUEL biatch.

i hate her so

They should send him to a small, lawyer-less town in Alaska where he's has to work off his debt. It would be filled with eccentrics and natives and he would complain a lot but ultimately realize it's where he's happiest.

he's trying to be a lawyer not an accountant right?

Bugs_Bunny_Practiced_Psychological_Warfare: I know the guy was sick for a while but he was well enough physically and financially to go to school. I don't think there was any alternative other than holding up his liscense.

Sallie Mae must be really anal about repayment but 26 years? He could have had a kid that already graduated from college in that time. My student loans took a while to pay off but this guy must have completely ignored repayment assistance. Mine I've had in forebearance from unemployment a couple times, just pay the interest. There was even a clause for serious illness, possible reduction thereof, incarceration.... And I've even refinanced under various government programs (which increased the interest) that cut my monthly payments almost in half, so it was kind of a wash....

So in other words, he didn't do jack shiat on repayment. For 26 years. He may or may not be unethical, he sure as hell is lazy. And never asked a single question about whether such a situation could arise.

celery_stalker: he's trying to be a lawyer not an accountant right?

It's been said that law is the only well-paying career path that doesn't require math skills.

fanbladesaresharp: Bugs_Bunny_Practiced_Psychological_Warfare: I know the guy was sick for a while but he was well enough physically and financially to go to school. I don't think there was any alternative other than holding up his liscense.

Sallie Mae must be really anal about repayment but 26 years? He could have had a kid that already graduated from college in that time. My student loans took a while to pay off but this guy must have completely ignored repayment assistance. Mine I've had in forebearance from unemployment a couple times, just pay the interest. There was even a clause for serious illness, possible reduction thereof, incarceration.... And I've even refinanced under various government programs (which increased the interest) that cut my monthly payments almost in half, so it was kind of a wash....

So in other words, he didn't do jack shiat on repayment. For 26 years. He may or may not be unethical, he sure as hell is lazy. And never asked a single question about whether such a situation could arise.

I completely agree. The guy went back to school when he could have gone back to work for a while.

More proof that banks own and control everything.

Wait, isn't Obama going to pay for my student loans?

thomps: Jmast7: Ingaba: It sounds like there are arseholes on both sides of this situation.

This. Why not let the guy practice law with the stipulation that when he gets a job he wages will be garnished to repay the loans? Preventing him from getting a job seems lose-lose for both sides.

what makes you think that he'll pay back his student loans now? let's be honest, anyone that is decades out of law school and took 4 attempts to pass the bar probably isn't getting hired by big law. 23 years of defaulting on student loans is a pretty serious disregard for one's commitments and shouldn't be excused by the bar association.

I don't think you understand what the word "garnish" means...

I don't feel like quoting, but:

Lawyers are not federally licensed, what_now. As far as I know there's no automatic disqualification from practicing law due to default on a federal loan. It's a factor in your character and fitness examination.

Defaulting on a loan is not breach of a fiduciary duty.

If anyone bothered to read the NYTimes article, the NY Bar character and fitness examination committee recommended that he be allowed to practice. In a rare move, the judges panel that actually approves admission disagreed with the panel's recommendation. The abridged Daily Kos version leaves out the extenuating circumstances that the applicant claims and the NY Bar committee found persuasive. There's more to this than that the applicant completely ignored his loans for 26 years.

dave2198: I don't think you understand what the word "garnish" means...

no you're right. i've never heard of the word "garnish," nor, apparently has sallie mae. you should write them a letter.

Nicholas Urfe: If anyone bothered to read the NYTimes article, the NY Bar character and fitness examination committee recommended that he be allowed to practice. In a rare move, the judges panel that actually approves admission disagreed with the panel's recommendation. The abridged Daily Kos version leaves out the extenuating circumstances that the applicant claims and the NY Bar committee found persuasive. There's more to this than that the applicant completely ignored his loans for 26 years.

of course there are extenuating circumstances. you can't dodge making a single loan payment in 26 years without putting together some pretty sweet excuses, which is why he's appealing the decision. i don't think this guy should be expecting a whole lot of sympathy though, and he certainly shouldn't have expected to cruise though character and fitness without some static.

More likely than not, all these negative comments have more to do with righteous lawyer hate than the fact that he hasn't paid back his school loans.

Frankly, it doesn't seem like any of you know what it is like to have so much federal debt that it's impossible to pay off. Either you are all without debt or are clearly making enough money in your chosen profession to be able to pay it off. I am not that fortunate. After my masters degree I have accumulated close to $100,000 in federal loan debt that I have virtually no chance of repaying at my current hourly wage. They call it "hardship deferment" for a reason, folks. I'd gladly pay back my loans in full were I able to afford it. Unfortunately, what most of you fail to understand is that for people like me, who fall below the minimum annual wage and live paycheck to paycheck, loan repayment is the last thing we have to worry about.

Forget the money or his character--I'm just glad there's not another lawyer.

consciousNOT: Forget the money or his character--I'm just glad there's not another lawyer.

DamnYankees: kronicfeld: In 26 years he couldn't have bagged groceries or dug a ditch to make payments?

Again - so what? This is stupid moralizing on the part of the Bar.

Yeah, but you are probably one of the first to complain about what crooks and scum lawyers are. He has made no effort to pay back the loan. That is what happens to loans when you don't pay them and interest collects: they get frigging huge.

timmy242: More likely than not, all these negative comments have more to do with righteous lawyer hate than the fact that he hasn't paid back his school loans.

Frankly, it doesn't seem like any of you know what it is like to have so much federal debt that it's impossible to pay off. Either you are all without debt or are clearly making enough money in your chosen profession to be able to pay it off. I am not that fortunate. After my masters degree I have accumulated close to $100,000 in federal loan debt that I have virtually no chance of repaying at my current hourly wage. They call it "hardship deferment" for a reason, folks. I'd gladly pay back my loans in full were I able to afford it. Unfortunately, what most of you fail to understand is that for people like me, who fall below the minimum annual wage and live paycheck to paycheck, loan repayment is the last thing we have to worry about.

Don't go to an expensive school to major in Gameboy if your folks aren't paying the way.

KaponoFor3: Ain't the Moral Character examination a biatch.

How the hell did John Edwards pass it?

barefoot in the head: WaltzingMathilda: in other words, real justice happened. an organization that demands responsible behavior declined admission to an irresponsible person

The loans agency, which might have seen a glimmer of hope that their loans could be recouped, might not call that real justice, which seeks to satisfy all parties as best as it might. The man could be supervised - he did pass the test. Of course, the appearance of irresponsibility is a real mark against his character - maybe he could work as a law clerk to test his willingness to make good. I just think something is better than mere nothing. It seems lazy and fatalistic.

You're forgetting that those loans are backed by the government. That is why bankruptcy can't get rid of them (if it could, I would go Chapter 7 in a blink of an eye if I were him), but is also why they feel no need to work with him. In a while, our taxes will pay the bill. Obama will be happy.

holy cheesecake: Gyrfalcon: FTA: Mr. Bowman concedes that he has never made a payment on his loans, partly because of medical and other deferrals and problems with his lender. But he says he intends to make good, adding that his only hope is to begin practicing law

So the guy admits he's NEVER paid a dime on his loans. In 26 years. I've got a hefty debt with Sallie Mae myself, but I've found them incredibly reasonable to deal with over the years; in the past, when my first round of student loans came due, I was in fact able to make token payments of $20-50 a month when I wasn't able to pay more. Normally they don't care how much you pay, as long as you keep in touch and try to pay something.

Really? Before I went back to school, Sallie Mae told me I had to pay the monthly payments in full despite the fact I wasn't making enough at the time.

Really. Yes, I got told that once too. After hiding a few years in fear & horror, I called them back...and the woman I spoke to then told me that was ridiculous, that they'd much rather be receiving something than nothing. She was the one who got my balance cut in half so I could pay it off.

Was it around the late 80's? I'm wondering if some kind of demon accountant agency was working for them then. They've been much easier to deal with since then.

DamnYankees: Yeah, and I generally think its dumb. But this isn't a 'moral' issue. This is financial stuff between a guy and his bank.

Don't forget us. You don't think a portion of that 400K isn't owed to the taxpayer?

This guy has no intention of paying those loans. It speaks to his character. It isn't a moral issue, it's an ethics issue. He has not made one effort to meet his part of the contract.

timmy242: rankly, it doesn't seem like any of you know what it is like to have so much federal debt that it's impossible to pay off. Either you are all without debt or are clearly making enough money in your chosen profession to be able to pay it off. I am not that fortunate. After my masters degree I have accumulated close to $100,000 in federal loan debt that I have virtually no chance of repaying at my current hourly wage. They call it "hardship deferment" for a reason, folks. I'd gladly pay back my loans in full were I able to afford it. Unfortunately, what most of you fail to understand is that for people like me, who fall below the minimum annual wage and live paycheck to paycheck, loan repayment is the last thing we have to worry about.

Of course the government failed you. Clearly they should have done a better job explaining the amount of money you would owe and the likely-hood you'd find a job that could actually pay that debt. How can someone expect you to sign a piece of paper that says you own over 100K and think that as a college graduate you would understand or could figure out how much debt that really is.

In all my years of reading Fark, I have found only two things that 99.999% of Farkers agree on: 1) Fred Phelps is an arsehole, and 2) so is this guy.

/give it up, D. Yankee