SkinnyHead He should do that now, and clear this all up.

Clear what up?

sn0r: Thai Mai Xhu: A number of stories on Rense.com name many lawsuits filed in the interest of discovery of the true details and location of Mr. Obama's birth.

Just so you know for next time:

Do not ever quote rense.com as your source of information if you want people to take you seriously.

They're the people who use MSPaint to support their conspiracy theorise and arguements.



Thai Mai Xhu: Fark is a community of kindred spirits, I'd like to think we are for the most part friends.
Please shake hands and drop the B.S.. There are plenty of political sites where hatred is the order of the day, let's keep it light here ok?

IROFLMAOed!
Tanks fer de reality check mang!
I offered up Rense cause he has about a zillion stories about people suing for the Obama birth cert.

I also know how farkers like to throw zingers at one another on occassion, but sometimes people seem altogether too emotionally invested.
Have a happy 4th of July!

SkinnyHead: keithgabryelski: Dude, he can't get a copy of the original because Hawaii doesn't release the "long form birth certificate". Simple matter of fact.

True, according to DOH policy, if you make an ordinary request or a birth certificate, you're going to get the computer-generated short-form. But that doesn't mean that the long-form original is secret or inaccessible.


Except it seems that it is. reading factcheck.org (new window), again:

The document is a "certification of birth," also known as a short-form birth certificate. The long form is drawn up by the hospital and includes additional information such as birth weight and parents' hometowns. The short form is printed by the state and draws from a database with fewer details. The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate, but their short form has enough information to be acceptable to the State Department. We tried to ask the Hawaii DOH why they only offer the short form, among other questions, but they have not given a response.

[...] The certificate is stamped June 2007, because that's when Hawaii officials produced it for the campaign, which requested that document and "all the records we could get our hands on" according to spokesperson Shauna Daly. [...]

Kurt Tsue at the DOH told us [...] that the information in the short form birth certificate is sufficient to prove citizenship for "all reasonable purposes."

It seems you are mistaken about the availability of the document (since they did ask, reading the second quote above) and given that the short form "is sufficient to prove citizenship" it is clear the original will give no useful information to the cause of "is Obama a citizen" more than the original long form would.

Hawaii has a state law version of the FOIA, called the Hawaii Open Records Law. A provision of that law allows you to examine and copy any document held by the state that pertains to you, unless there is a reason for the state to withhold the document from you. All he has to do is make a request for a copy of the original birth certificate under that law. He should do that now, and clear this all up.

1) now you are asking Obama, and I'm guessing you know this, for irrelevant information. Extra data that does not matter. Should Obama release a stool sample to you upon request? What you are asking is chivvying.

Knowing all the things you know about this subject and knowing Obama has met criteria for proof of citizenship, what could possibly be the reason for requesting this long form?

You say because "it has been requested -- why not clear the air". We see there is no air to clear given everything the Hawaii DOH has done.

2) Someone already suggested: "have anyone else that was born in Hawaii produce a copy of their long-form birth certificate". It seems that would prove the ability to retrieve such information, in the absence of that, why are you suggesting it is possible to get a copy of the long-form when there seems to be no form to do it.

3) you state he needs to clear things up. As someone else state "What needs to be cleared up".

We are at an impasse, it seems.

You want to see a record that:

a) has no relevant information to your stated concern

b) can not be obtained (or at least requires special handling in the name of FOIA)

c) has been certified as "existing and valid" by the Hawaiian DOH

d) has corroborated the data on the short form is the same as that on the original long form by the Hawaiian DOH

I can't help you more than say:

All reasonable questions and concerns have been addressed.

keithgabryelski: Should Obama release a stool sample to you upon request?

No, we've had quite enough of that already. Just release a copy of the original birth certificate, please.

If there isn't an issue then there is no need for it to be kept under lock and key. Make it public and we can all move on.

SkinnyHead: keithgabryelski: Should Obama release a stool sample to you upon request?

No, we've had quite enough of that already. Just release a copy of the original birth certificate, please.

He can't and you, now, know that.

Wolfinstl: If there isn't an issue then there is no need for it to be kept under lock and key. Make it public and we can all move on.

Just popping in, are we?

Read the thread. There is no mechanism for retrieving a copy of the long-form birth certificate from Hawaii.

keithgabryelski: SkinnyHead: keithgabryelski: Should Obama release a stool sample to you upon request?

No, we've had quite enough of that already. Just release a copy of the original birth certificate, please.

He can't and you, now, know that.

Oh no...we've gone back from "you don't need to see it anyway" to "he can't".

keithgabryelski: Wolfinstl: If there isn't an issue then there is no need for it to be kept under lock and key. Make it public and we can all move on.

Just popping in, are we?

Read the thread. There is no mechanism for retrieving a copy of the long-form birth certificate from Hawaii.

Link (new window)

"[92F-23] Access to personal record; initial procedure. Upon the request of an individual to gain access to the individual's personal record, an agency shall permit the individual to review the record and have a copy made within ten working days following the date of receipt of the request by the agency unless the personal record requested is exempted under section 92F-22. The ten-day period may be extended for an additional twenty working days if the agency provides to the individual, within the initial ten working days, a written explanation of unusual circumstances causing the delay.
[L 1988, c 262, pt of §1; am L 2000, c 254, §1]"

SkinnyHead: keithgabryelski: Should Obama release a stool sample to you upon request?

No, we've had quite enough of that already. Just release a copy of the original birth certificate, please.

My dick, I request that you suck it.

Cataholic: Oh no...we've gone back from "you don't need to see it anyway" to "he can't".

Read the factcheck.org article.

The campaign claims it requested all relevant documents. The long form was not given.

Factcheck.org has a pending question: "why can a Hawaiian get a copy of the long form" and it still has not been answered.

But, yes -- there are two points:

1) he can't -- or it is too arduous to bother (read my posts, i've said this before).
2) everything that is on the short form is the same as the items on the long form (confirmed by DOH). What is on the long form that you think you need?

Basically you admit Obama is a citizen, but you ask for his birth certificate for some unknown reason -- WHAT ARE YOU HIDING BY NOT TELLING US THE REAL REASON YOU WANT THE LONG FORM CERTIFICATE?

He can obtain it and I've proved that by citing the LAW regarding the release of such a document. If writing a letter asking for a copy and expecting one in ten days as required by 92F-23 of the Hawaii Revised Code is too arduous, then so be it. I merely responded to the notion that it either didn't exist or was impossible/illegal to obtain or that there was no mechanism for doing so (I lose track of all the assertions I've debunked in this thread). The distinction between asking an agency to issue a certificate/certification of a record (a ministerial act) and asking them to produce a conformed copy of a record (a custodial act) is nuanced, and thus it is no surprise that a political type writing an article for "fact check" missed a few points.

I personally have no clue why people are asking to see a copy of the original, and thus am hiding nothing. If they wish to wipe their collective ass with it whilst barking at the moon it will do no harm to anyone but themselves.

keithgabryelski: Cataholic: Oh no...we've gone back from "you don't need to see it anyway" to "he can't".

Read the factcheck.org article.

The campaign claims it requested all relevant documents. The long form was not given.

Factcheck.org has a pending question: "why can a Hawaiian get a copy of the long form" and it still has not been answered.

But, yes -- there are two points:

1) he can't -- or it is too arduous to bother (read my posts, i've said this before).
2) everything that is on the short form is the same as the items on the long form (confirmed by DOH). What is on the long form that you think you need?

Basically you admit Obama is a citizen, but you ask for his birth certificate for some unknown reason -- WHAT ARE YOU HIDING BY NOT TELLING US THE REAL REASON YOU WANT THE LONG FORM CERTIFICATE?

You make some good, rational points, instead of the usual, "You are nuts!" or "It has already been released."

If the long form was available to anyone, I am sure someone in Hawaii could provide one and post it online. I haven't seen one. If that is the case, why do they even fill one out if they are never able to be used as records? Why do they keep them on file if nobody can ever look at them? Seems strange, but could be the some kind of government bureaucracy bs. Maybe it requires a legal judgement to gain access.

I respect that he doesn't just pull strings because he is the President to get something that regular citizens can't. However, this reason has not been given by Obama. The issue is just avoided and birthers are attacked as conspiracy loons.

Cataholic: He can obtain it and I've proved that by citing the LAW regarding the release of such a document. If writing a letter asking for a copy and expecting one in ten days as required by 92F-23 of the Hawaii Revised Code is too arduous, then so be it. I merely responded to the notion that it either didn't exist or was impossible/illegal to obtain or that there was no mechanism for doing so (I lose track of all the assertions I've debunked in this thread). The distinction between asking an agency to issue a certificate/certification of a record (a ministerial act) and asking them to produce a conformed copy of a record (a custodial act) is nuanced, and thus it is no surprise that a political type writing an article for "fact check" missed a few points.

I trust a professional writing for one of the most respected fact checking organizations in the United States a wee bit more than you, Mr. Hutz, but thanks for the analysis.

Cataholic: He can obtain it and I've proved that by citing the LAW regarding the release of such a document.

You cited part of a law. The part prior to it, the one referenced explaining which ones are exempt, lists his birth certificate as one of the documents that can not be released as it is sealed in a vault with everyone else birth certificates. In Hawaii they will only ever give you the COLB that Obama has provided because the original document is concerned a 'vital statistic'.

logruszed: SkinnyHead: keithgabryelski: Should Obama release a stool sample to you upon request?

No, we've had quite enough of that already. Just release a copy of the original birth certificate, please.

My dick, I request that you suck it.

Like I said before, I'm not interested in stool samples. Just have Obama release a copy of the original birth certificate so we can get this issue resolved.

SkinnyHead:
Like I said before, I'm not interested in stool samples. Just have Obama release a copy of the original birth certificate so we can get this issue resolved.

I'm sorry. I didn't hear that. Could you repeat it please? What is the issue again?

SkinnyHead: Like I said before, I'm not interested in stool samples. Just have Obama release a copy of the original birth certificate so we can get this issue resolved.

As stated before, the idea that his "releasing" a document that he doesn't even have access to would convince any of the people brain dead enough to bring these arguments in the first place of anything is in the same realm as Lord of the Rings: It's a fantasy.

The last I read, the officials from Hawaii made it clear that the original birth certificates are not made available. Plain and simple. Several people on here have made the argument that he can request it through Hawaii's open records act. Others say that isn't the case. The stories I read about this a month or so ago quoted Hawaii officials saying the original isn't available, period. The message board legal experts here can debate that if they choose. Unless someone can pair their analysis with credentials showing they are an expert on records law in Hawaii (it varies from state to state), the opinions are worthless. And really, the argument is a moot point becuase he has provided a legal, official birth certificate that is all the proof he needs and all the proof required.

You can keep beating this dead horse as long as you want, but it makes you look foolish.

Of course, I don't expect you to respond to this. You avoid responding to any comments that make a point you can't refute. You keep this going for one of two reasons. Either you are just that dumb, or you are a classic troll whose real aim is to see if you can frustrate people.

Either way, you fail. People just think you are an idiot.

badhatharry:
You make some good, rational points, instead of the usual, "You are nuts!" or "It has already been released."


But let's get this straight: Those that are saying "release the (long form) original birth certificate because I don't believe (without it) you are a U.S. citizen" are delusional.

Right? We agree that Barack Hussein Obama is a citizen of the U.S. AND people thinking otherwise are missing some fundamental logical connection with reality.

If the long form was available to anyone, I am sure someone in Hawaii could provide one and post it online. I haven't seen one. If that is the case, why do they even fill one out if they are never able to be used as records?

1) these things were filled out decades ago on the only medium that made sense (paper).
2) I don't know if (or why they haven't) changed this for contemporary births -- doing things the same way as we did them yesterday might be a good enough reason (read lazy).
3) the records ARE USED. they are used by a clerk that copies the information from the original form to the short-form.
4) I'm not sure if information on the long form can be abused. Certainly someone's finger-prints can (foot prints, that seems sci fi paranoid -- i don't know: i'm spit balling) maybe there are other things, like social security numbers.

Why do they keep them on file if nobody can ever look at them? Seems strange, but could be the some kind of government bureaucracy bs.

This is a little more easy to understand. Some filing process must be done. Old paper deteriorates over time. Limiting access to it increases the years it is able to accessed. Access to them is kept for historical record but only because no ones trusts computers enough not to lose the information (read that as: modernizing the storage, access, and the procedures required is too expensive or daunting right now)

Maybe it requires a legal judgement to gain access.

I suggest, as others have, any birther get a Hawaiian friend to figure out what is required to gain access to their long form birth certificate.

I respect that he doesn't just pull strings because he is the President to get something that regular citizens can't. However, this reason has not been given by Obama. The issue is just avoided and birthers are attacked as conspiracy loons.

Again, (the majority of) birthers are conspiracy loons -- we can agree on that, right?

Barack Obama NOT giving a reason for further interaction with people unwilling to agree to basic reality is pretty understandable, given that all the relevant questions they've asked (are you citizen) have been answered and the understanding that any further interaction is, for lack of a better analogy, feeding a troll.

SkinnyHead: Like I said before, I'm not interested in stool samples. Just have Obama release a copy of the original birth certificate so we can get this issue resolved.

Your joke about Obama giving us "enough of [stool samples] already" is evidence enough you have slanted view point

or maybe you just like the lulz, i laughed -- but wondered which it was.

SkinnyHead: Just have Obama release a copy of the original birth certificate so we can get this issue resolved.

He has released it and they're still complaining. At this point it is reaching moon landing "But where's the evidence" hoax levels of crazy.

My feelings are hurt because I think SkinnyHead has me on ignore. I sincerely want to know what the issue is about the birth certificate, as I have never been able to understand why neither John McCain nor Sarah Palin brought it up during the campaign.

I understand that McCain is a RINO Manchurian candidate who was put in there by the Tri-Lateral Commission and the Illuminati, but Palin is a bonafide Alaska Independence Party patriot. Was she in on it too? What about Joe the Plumber? Surely he would have had the courage to speak out. I'm sure you can appreciate why I am baffled.

Someone help me out here.

badhatharry: If the long form was available to anyone, I am sure someone in Hawaii could provide one and post it online. I haven't seen one.

Five seconds of Google search gives this one with personal details blanked out and this complete one.

Alien Robot: badhatharry: If the long form was available to anyone, I am sure someone in Hawaii could provide one and post it online. I haven't seen one.

Five seconds of Google search gives this one with personal details blanked out and this complete one.

Thanks for the link, that will be useful in the next birth certificate thread. It doesn't even mention religion. I figured that was why he didn't want to release it.