T.rex: i disagree entirely.

I'm agnostic BECAUSE i'm open-minded. I fully admit that the belief systems of various people all have some merit that could be helpful to them.

Thus, on that vary token, they are all correct, (but they are also all wrong, if looked at from the point of view of a competing theory).

i think if someone believes something, it is true (for them). Even if someone else thinks the opposite, their beliefs are also true.

True to them in their mind but not in reality?

t3knomanser: Postmodernists are, inarguably, the biggest idiots on the planet.

No they're not.

t3knomanser: T.rex: i think if someone believes something, it is true (for them). Even if someone else thinks the opposite, their beliefs are also true.

Ah, postmodernism. Who would have thought a single school of thought could so thoroughly destroy the possibility of rational discussion.

Postmodernists are, inarguably, the biggest idiots on the planet.


I believe in raptor jesus. Therefore he must exist.

Englebert Slaptyback: *sigh* Someone isn't paying attention.

And that person is you.

Theist: things that say, "There is a god".
Atheist: all things that aren't theists.

hurdboy: I mean, I suppose it's possible I could get hit and killed by a meteor on the way out to my car this afternoon....there is enough evidence to the contrary to make a declaration and stop worrying about it.

Which is where I'm going with this. While only a very small number of atheists would say with 100% certainty that there is no god, most would dismiss it as so unlikely to be unworthy of consideration.

Let's see..

FTFA:

People who are less confident in their beliefs are more reluctant than others to seek out opposing perspectives, researchers said today.

While it's not news that like-minded people often flock together, the new review suggests we actively keep our blinders on when opposing views are nearby.

Overall, the studies suggested people are about twice as likely to cherry-pick information that supports their own viewpoints than to consider an opposing idea. Nearly 70 percent cherry-picked compared to about 30 percent who ponder the other side.

Close-minded individuals opted for information that went along with their views 75 percent of the time.

"Close-minded people are very certain and dogmatic in their views, and generally believe that there is a single correct point of view," said study researcher Dolores Albarracin, a psychology professor at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. "The implication is that you have a group of people who would only seek to confirm their points of view, resisting all evidence to the contrary via avoidance of exposure."



This described the Fark militant Atheist more than agnostic people.

So who funded this study? The institute of NoshiatSherlock?

M2: Everything is true.
GP: Even false things?
M2: Even false things are true.
GP: How can that be?
M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.

Englebert Slaptyback: *sigh* Someone isn't paying attention.

Atheist - actively believes and is certain that there is no god

Agnostic - is not certain if there is a god, i.e. holds no active belief one way or the other

No.

They are TWO AXES. There are FOUR combinations.

Agnostic theist: I believe in a god, but don't believe we have PROOF of the existence of god.
Gnostic theist: I believe in god, and I believe there IS PROOF of the existence of god.
Agnostic atheist: I don't believe in a good, but don't believe we have PROOF of the nonexistence of god.
Gnostic atheist: I don't believe in god, and I believe there IS PROOF of the nonexistence of god.

Try again.

t3knomanser: rastjr: Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

But, relative to itself, it's just average. Your experience is rather unusual, you must admit. You exist for a very short period of time, in a very limited location, with senses that are bound to a very small range of possible inputs. I wouldn't consider your experiences a good sample space, all things considered.

Who said anything about a sample? Okay, ask the 6 billion people on this earth if the universe is large. I bet the vast majority would say yes. Is 6 billion people a big enough sample for you?

Blind_Io:

Agnostic != Atheist

An agnostic recognizes that it is a logical fallacy to prove the non-existence of something. Therefore we can never know if god doesn't exist, we can only fail to find proof that it does exist. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of non-existence.

An Atheist believes god does not exist, even though this is a logical fallacy. It is a belief in the absence of proof (AKA: Faith) despite the fact that the non-existence of a god is impossible to prove.

No, an Agnostic by your definition is someone who doesn't understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge. If you don't hold the proposition "God exists" as true, you are an Atheist. Whether or not you know "God exists" to be true, or whether or not "God exists" is even knowable to begin with is a completely different question to Atheism/Theism.

ArcadianRefugee: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex [to] not be created by a supreme being.

Interesting. I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex to have been created by a supreme being.

Tomatoe, tomato.

Cool, one thing we do know. The world is big enough for our two opinions.

I believe the word you were looking for was "eclectics", subby. Most people would have to go look that up, though, and it doesn't work quite as well for flame bait, so I guess this was the better Fark headline.

I am steadfast in my certainty that I have no idea about the nature of God.

m2313: t3knomanser: Postmodernists are, inarguably, the biggest idiots on the planet.

No they're not.

They could be if they believe it.

Say what you will. At least we all have to agree that there is only one true religion, one true philosophy, and that "Bob" is omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, omnisexual, omnilucky, and omniSlackful.

Remember that X-Day is nigh upon us. Repent, quit your job and Slack off.

The world is about to end, and YOU MAY DIE!

PRABOB

servoled: If you don't hold the proposition "God exists" as true, you are an Atheist.

Wrong.

rastjr: Is 6 billion people a big enough sample for you?

No, because their perspective is quite clearly unique, and hardly indicative of what the universe is like. Relative to humans, the universe is quite large- but who says humans are a good judge of what the universe is like? They're good reproducers in the right environment, and they're no slouches when it comes to tool using- but why do you think the human perspective is a good perspective for judging things like the relative size and complexity of the universe?

rastjr: I bet the vast majority would say yes. Is 6 billion people a big enough sample for you?

Ah, yes. "If a whole lot of people believe something, it's true." That line of thinking has never gotten us in trouble, ever.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones."

- Marcus Aurelius

Sodium Benzoate: rastjr: t3knomanser: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I understand biology is extremely, ridiculously, almost comically complex, but I know that other people spend a lot of time devoted to understanding it. I trust their opinion over any "Well I guess that means..." assumption I may make.

Size means nothing. It's completely relative to the size of the human body.

Do you have anything else to judge its size by? If so, tell me what it is.

Sodium Benzoate: While all of this is accurate, I'd also say a lot of people simply say "I'm agnostic" because they don't believe in gods and also don't want to argue about it.

Pretty much. In America, atheist has such a negative connotation associated with it, that most people I know will say agnostic, even when by almost any standard they'd be classified as atheist if they made their views known.

Militant Agnosticism FTW! I don't know and neither do you.

crab66: Wrong.

Um, no. Right. That's exactly it. Theists and atheists are two disjoint but complete sets that contain all humans. Period. You may be a theist, but if you are not a theist, you must be an atheist.

Let me give you some other examples:
Theist:Atheist::Red:Not Red
Theist:Atheist::Car:Not Car
Theist:Atheist::Cat:Not Cat

Are you going to argue that a car could be neither red nor non-red? Or that an animal could be neither a cat nor a non-cat?

I believe I'll have another.

Atheism is a Religion.

t3knomanser 2009-07-02 12:57:49 PM
But given the available evidence, most would be willing to stake a great deal on gods absence, because, let's be honest: god doesn't exactly go out of its way to make its presence known.

LIES!!

Milkbeer: useful idiots

You must be a useless idiot.

rastjr: Sodium Benzoate: rastjr: t3knomanser: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I understand biology is extremely, ridiculously, almost comically complex, but I know that other people spend a lot of time devoted to understanding it. I trust their opinion over any "Well I guess that means..." assumption I may make.

Size means nothing. It's completely relative to the size of the human body.

Do you have anything else to judge its size by? If so, tell me what it is.

I'm just saying it's size is arbitrary and unimportant.

FlyingPig: rastjr: I bet the vast majority would say yes. Is 6 billion people a big enough sample for you?

Ah, yes. "If a whole lot of people believe something, it's true." That line of thinking has never gotten us in trouble, ever.

No, I did not say that. He said my one opinion was a too small sample so I gave my 6 billion as an answer to that.

Do not put words in my mouth or I will not respond to you again.

letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

And not collecting stamps is a hobby.

miscreant: Pretty much. In America, atheist has such a negative connotation associated with it, that most people I know will say agnostic, even when by almost any standard they'd be classified as atheist if they made their views known.

EXACTLY.

FlyingPig:
No.

They are TWO AXES. There are FOUR combinations.

Agnostic theist: I believe in a god, but don't believe we have PROOF of the existence of god.
Gnostic theist: I believe in god, and I believe there IS PROOF of the existence of god.
Agnostic atheist: I don't believe in a good, but don't believe we have PROOF of the nonexistence of god.
Gnostic atheist: I don't believe in god, and I believe there IS PROOF of the nonexistence of god.

Try again.

Not exactly, but closer than a lot of people in this thread. Agnostic/Non-agnostic is more a question of whether or not it is possible to have direct knowledge of god(s). Whether or not you have proof is a different question altogether.

Danielsan: "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

Bertrand Russell

I came to quote this.

With each passing year of my life, the truer this sentiment becomes. Some of you youngsters would do well to take heed.

servoled: If you don't hold the proposition "God exists" as true, you are an Atheist.

If one were to break the word base down into theist/atheist/antitheist, then, yes, you would be correct: the lack of a belief in any deity would constitute atheism. It follows, though, that the steadfast belief in the non-existence of any deity would therefore qualify as "antitheism", which is not a widely used term. Indeed, the common tongue uses atheism and antitheism fairly interchangeably, so the realistic application of the definition you put forth is far from unshakable.

Sodium Benzoate: rastjr: Sodium Benzoate: rastjr: t3knomanser: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I understand biology is extremely, ridiculously, almost comically complex, but I know that other people spend a lot of time devoted to understanding it. I trust their opinion over any "Well I guess that means..." assumption I may make.

Size means nothing. It's completely relative to the size of the human body.

Do you have anything else to judge its size by? If so, tell me what it is.

I'm just saying it's size is arbitrary and unimportant.

It seems unarbitary and important to me. If you have another opinion that's fine.

t3knomanser: Which is where I'm going with this. While only a very small number of atheists would say with 100% certainty that there is no god, most would dismiss it as so unlikely to be unworthy of consideration.

Very few do articulate that view, however, preferring to focus on cliches about not being able to prove a negative, etc. etc. But, you know, it works. Just like getting all their news from Colbert and Fark works. Everybody else is doing it. Why not have like, a weekly meeting about it? You know, maybe on the weekend? Donuts and coffee afterwards!

I mean, I would love to believe in god and an afterlife. I think that it would be a source of inspiration and comfort that I don't currently have. But with so much evidence to the contrary, I just can't do it. Had a very interesting conversation with a Mormon missionary about that one time.

/Most receptive listener I've ever had on it
//And I even pulled into a parking space after I'd finished pumping gas to continue the discussion

rastjr: No, I did not say that. He said my one opinion was a too small sample so I gave my 6 billion as an answer to that.

But that's not what I said at all. I said the human experience was too small a sample space. Humans live on only one planet, with a very limited set of sensory inputs. They are singular organisms, unusual in the scheme of the universe, perhaps completely unique. The perspective of humans is not a good place to judge the universe from.

I am agnostic in belief but atheist in action. I think most atheists are like this, technically.

What's the proper term for someone who isn't so sure if there's a God and kinda leans towards thinking there isn't, but in the end doesn't really care or think about it or religion in general all that much?

Diogenes: Drawing a limit to what is knowable and what is not is not being "unsure" of your beliefs.

"...in order to draw a limit to thinking we should have to be able to thnk both sides of this limit (we should therefore have to be able to think what cannot be thought).

The limit can, therefore, only be drawn in language and what lies on the other side of the limit will be simply nonsense." - Wittgenstein

+1

THIS. Agnosticism, by definition, has nothing to do with being unsure of one's own beliefs. It notes (rightly, imho) that the human brain is bounded by physical and metaphysical constraints and that the knowledge of God, let alone His Will, lay outside those constraints.

Sybarite: KaponoFor3: devildog123: Not all Atheists, just the ones that are insanely arrogant and obnoxious about it, and believe that they are right, and everyone else is a stupid, ignorant, and wrong. They sound like religious fundies to me.

Exactly. They are the exact opposite side of the same coin that they abhor.


That's why you see so many of them burning religious books, protesting at events they disagree with while screaming that the people there are not going anywhere when they die, publicly proclaiming that people with faith can't possibly be real Americans, going to poor third world countries to convert the local animists to atheism, leaving copies of Richard Dawkins books in hotel rooms, and knocking on your door to tell you the good news about materialism. Yep, exactly the same.

The win, it burns us precious.

Accent: FTA: People who are less confident in their beliefs are more reluctant than others to seek out opposing perspectives, researchers said today.

Could it be they seek out opposing perspectives so they can tell them they ARE WRONG AND WILL BURN IN A FIERY DAMNATION FOR ALL ETERNITY IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE... or is it to tell them they will turn into dirt after they die and that's pretty much the end of it.

I have some questions that neither side can answer, so I'm just going to sit here and not ask for a bottled response.

Well I think that this particular study involved a lot of reading material, not interaction. So, if I'm very sure in my political opinion, I'm more likely to read news espousing both my opinion and opposing opinions. Whereas if I believe something on a shakier foundation, I tend to actively avoid news that doesn't agree with my stated beliefs. And the strength of belief here is a personal measurement, not a measurement of the quality of information it's based on.

For the true believer, there is no doubt.

Lord_Baull: There was a Creationist on another website that suggested to me how Koalas, who dine exclusively on Eucalyptus leaves found exclusively in Australia, were able to make it back to Australia after the flood. This (new window) was her explanation.

Yeah, the logic from the close-minded Fundie borders on insanity.

I really don't see how that ties together. Were the koalas launched out of the volcano?

Anyway, what's it called when you think the sum total of the Universe is analogous to God? I know there's a term for it but I forget.

servoled: Blind_Io:

Agnostic != Atheist

An agnostic recognizes that it is a logical fallacy to prove the non-existence of something. Therefore we can never know if god doesn't exist, we can only fail to find proof that it does exist. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of non-existence.

An Atheist believes god does not exist, even though this is a logical fallacy. It is a belief in the absence of proof (AKA: Faith) despite the fact that the non-existence of a god is impossible to prove.

No, an Agnostic by your definition is someone who doesn't understand the difference between Belief and Knowledge. If you don't hold the proposition "God exists" as true, you are an Atheist. Whether or not you know "God exists" to be true, or whether or not "God exists" is even knowable to begin with is a completely different question to Atheism/Theism.

I'm sorry if I was unclear, what I was trying to say is that an agnostic, in my mind, has no belief on the subject one way or the other. It is the lack of faith - either in the existence or non-existence of a god. Whether the god exists or not in inconsequential because the agnostic does not believe in anything; it is the state of being without Faith. That which cannot be proven to exist doesn't exist. That which cannot be proven to exist might exist, we just haven't found and/or proven it yet.

It's not that the agnostic doesn't understand the difference between belief and knowledge, it's that belief isn't a factor.

crab66: servoled: If you don't hold the proposition "God exists" as true, you are an Atheist.

Wrong.

Sorry, but by the philosophical definition it is correct. Its only wrong if you are trying to avoid the question by warping the definition to bring in some kind of false middle position, or don't understand the question to begin with.

t3knomanser: letrole: Atheism is a Religion.
And not collecting stamps is a hobby.

Actively berating those who collect stamps, and being a twat about it, now *that's* a hobby.

Deucednuisance 2009-07-02 01:05:32 PM
Lord_Baull: This (new window) was her explanation.

Krakatoa?
You sure you gave the right link?


Yes, she posited that the animals on Australia could have populated the planet Krakatoa-style.

rastjr: Sodium Benzoate: rastjr: Sodium Benzoate: rastjr: t3knomanser: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I understand biology is extremely, ridiculously, almost comically complex, but I know that other people spend a lot of time devoted to understanding it. I trust their opinion over any "Well I guess that means..." assumption I may make.

Size means nothing. It's completely relative to the size of the human body.

Do you have anything else to judge its size by? If so, tell me what it is.

I'm just saying it's size is arbitrary and unimportant.

It seems unarbitary and important to me. If you have another opinion that's fine.

I mean, I just don't understand how the size of the universe could have anything to do with if it was created by a magical super being vs on its own using complicated math with lots of tricky fractions. Like, "well if it's THIS big then it MUST have been..."

letrole: Actively berating those who collect stamps, and being a twat about it, now *that's* a hobby.

I reserve that for furries.

t3knomanser

You're blowing my mind, man! You talk like how I talk when I'm drunk and high at the same time.