FlyingPig: How come one billboard with an atheistic message is antagonistic, but the thousands of religious billboards aren't?

And more to the point, most of the atheist billboards say things like "There probably is no god," and "You can be good without god," which are pretty agnostic friendly statements.

Remember: if you say there is a god, you are a theist. If you are not a theist, you must be an atheist. An agnostic is someone who can't pick a side with complete confidence, but unless you say, "There is a god," you are an atheist.

That's the problem with beliefs.
They don't really lend themselves to examination, and tend to stand in the way of revision, or god forbid, contradictory evidence.
Better off without 'em.

rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

phenn: What's less open minded? I don't believe in a higher and I don't care if you do.

Which is not being an agnostic.....you've made a decision based upon the evidence you've collected that there isn't "a higher." The whole point of agnosticism is a steadfast refusal to do just that.

/Resigned atheist
//I want to believe in fairy tales, but I can't, so I don't give them equal weight as the agnostics do
///Have less of a problem with religious people than those who stay in a state of willful ignorance

I don't believe in atheists or agnostics.

There was a Creationist on another website that suggested to me how Koalas, who dine exclusively on Eucalyptus leaves found exclusively in Australia, were able to make it back to Australia after the flood. This (new window) was her explanation.

Yeah, the logic from the close-minded Fundie borders on insanity.

Ant: EWreckedSean: Agnostics aren't unsure in their beliefs. They are just really sure that god might exist, and he might not. We just except the possibility that either could be true.

What about leprechauns? Are you agnostic about them too?

No I'm sure they exist. Along with underpants gnomes...

FlyingPig: MightyPez: Some of the antagonistic billboards?

How come one billboard with an atheistic message is antagonistic, but the thousands of religious billboards aren't?

Where did I say they weren't? And if we can both agree that the religious ones antagonistic, does that make the atheist ones ok? I thought we were above that?

GilRuiz1: Sybarite: That's why you see so many of them burning religious books, protesting at events they disagree with while screaming that the people there are not going anywhere when they die, publicly proclaiming that people with faith can't possibly be real Americans, going to poor third world countries to convert the local animists to atheism, leaving copies of Richard Dawkins books in hotel rooms, and knocking on your door to tell you the good news about materialism. Yep, exactly the same.


How can you have been on FARK for seven years and yet missed all of those stories?

Wow, it's so rare that aggressive Atheists actually make the news. Imagine what would happen if the media reported on every single religious fanatic in the US. That guy with the "JESUS SAVES" sign who smells like pee would get space in the local paper.

Sure that guy is off his gourd to do something like that, but the fact that he's an off-his-gourd Atheist makes the news. If he was an off-his-gourd Christian it probably wouldn't even be mentioned.

The fact that the story was printed at all was probably just to scare those who are religious and provide material for Sunday sermons about how this poor, misguided young man would be so much happier if he just submitted to God's will and developed a personal relationship with Jesus - or whatever it is they talk about in church these days.

/haven't been in years.

hurdboy: The whole point of agnosticism is a steadfast refusal to do just that.

But they're still atheists. If you don't say, "There is a god," you're an atheist. Most atheists are agnostic, insofar as few atheists would guarantee that there is no god. But given the available evidence, most would be willing to stake a great deal on gods absence, because, let's be honest: god doesn't exactly go out of its way to make its presence known.

I_C_Weener: EWreckedSean: We just except the possibility that either could be true.

Are you sure?

Nobody likes a grammar Nazi. Somebody throw something sharp at him.

t3knomanser: Remember: if you say there is a god, you are a theist. If you are not a theist, you must be an atheist. An agnostic is someone who can't pick a side with complete confidence, but unless you say, "There is a god," you are an atheist.

Agreed.

Agnostics can be further subdivided into agnostic theists and agnostic atheists. Just saying you're "agnostic" doesn't get you off the hook. It doesn't work that way.

rastjr: But at least I know I lived my life the right way.

No you don't. Maybe the "right way" was to sacrifice a virgin every Tuesday night.

Daffydil: scseth: There are only two things I hate, intolerance and the Dutch midgets.

FTFM

Best website ever is still hireamidget dot com...

rastjr: But at least I know I lived my life the right way.

How do you know what's right?

Ant: EWreckedSean: Agnostics aren't unsure in their beliefs. They are just really sure that god might exist, and he might not. We just except the possibility that either could be true.

What about leprechauns? Are you agnostic about them too?

My views on leprechauns and god/religion are pretty similar actually.



If someone can prove they exist then I will believe it. Until then I am not going to base my life on chasing leprechauns or pleasing raptorjesus.

GurneyHalleck: Anyone who says they're sure of their beliefs has closed their mind.

Are you sure?

I believe in America. I believe it exists.
-Stephen Colbert

t3knomanser: What makes you think the universe is large?

The time it takes for Light(some pretty fast stuff) go get to us from Afar.....

Or lets go more local, the fact that I cannot See the edege, even with a telescope.

And if you had an other universe, it would not be a Universe would it?( I am guessing that is your point.)

t3knomanser: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

MightyPez: Where did I say they weren't? And if we can both agree that the religious ones antagonistic, does that make the atheist ones ok? I thought we were above that?

OK. We're on the same page then. I was speaking more about the views of people in this country in general, not specifically you.

hurdboy: The whole point of agnosticism is a steadfast refusal to do just that.

A wise band once said: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".

One trip to the Politics Tab was enough to convince me of this.

If I am secure in the belief that I am correct, then it is harmless to explore the rationale behind other ideas. If you're still trying to convince yourself, then it's too dangerous to go out on a limb and consider something other than that "truth".

But to address a common misconception, isn't it that people who are unsure about the existence of god are just unsure, and people who are sure that the existence of god is not or cannot be known are agnostic? So you could be an agnostic theist or atheist.

/scientist

m2313: rastjr: But at least I know I lived my life the right way.

How do you know what's right?

I was good to people and left the world better than when I came in. That's all I can do with this life I have.

FlyingPig: t3knomanser: Remember: if you say there is a god, you are a theist. If you are not a theist, you must be an atheist. An agnostic is someone who can't pick a side with complete confidence, but unless you say, "There is a god," you are an atheist.

Agreed.

Agnostics can be further subdivided into agnostic theists and agnostic atheists. Just saying you're "agnostic" doesn't get you off the hook. It doesn't work that way.

While all of this is accurate, I'd also say a lot of people simply say "I'm agnostic" because they don't believe in gods and also don't want to argue about it.

m2313: rastjr: But at least I know I lived my life the right way.

How do you know what's right?


This.

Does this mean Evolutionists have closed minds since they believe Evolution is fact and ID or any other view is BS?

Ant: rastjr: But at least I know I lived my life the right way.

No you don't. Maybe the "right way" was to sacrifice a virgin every Tuesday night.

Well, your "right way" wouldn't seem very right to the virgin. So, I'll take her opinion over yours.

t3knomanser: hurdboy: The whole point of agnosticism is a steadfast refusal to do just that.

But they're still atheists. If you don't say, "There is a god," you're an atheist. Most atheists are agnostic, insofar as few atheists would guarantee that there is no god. But given the available evidence, most would be willing to stake a great deal on gods absence, because, let's be honest: god doesn't exactly go out of its way to make its presence known.

Agnostic != Atheist

An agnostic recognizes that it is a logical fallacy to prove the non-existence of something. Therefore we can never know if god doesn't exist, we can only fail to find proof that it does exist. Lack of proof of existence is not proof of non-existence.

An Atheist believes god does not exist, even though this is a logical fallacy. It is a belief in the absence of proof (AKA: Faith) despite the fact that the non-existence of a god is impossible to prove.

EWreckedSean: Agnostics aren't unsure in their beliefs. They are just really sure that god might exist, and he might not. We just except the possibility that either could be true.

And since there is no way of knowing either way, the whole question purely academic.

rastjr: I was good to people and left the world better than when I came in. That's all I can do with this life I have.

How do you know what's good? What's better?
And maybe you could have done more but you limited yourself out of fears that something was "wrong" or "worse".

Sodium Benzoate: While all of this is accurate, I'd also say a lot of people simply say "I'm agnostic" because they don't believe in gods and also don't want to argue about it.

OK, but that doesn't make it incorrect to call them an atheist.

CapitolG: The time it takes for Light(some pretty fast stuff) go get to us from Afar.....

Well, yes, the size of the universe and the speed of light factor together to fix travel times across the universe. But that doesn't tell us the Universe is large.

"Large" is a relative term. The universe is large compared to you. So? What of it? What makes you so important, that you're the measuring stick against which the universe stacks up? Maybe the universe is average sized, and you're just really small.

FTA: People who are less confident in their beliefs are more reluctant than others to seek out opposing perspectives, researchers said today.

Could it be they seek out opposing perspectives so they can tell them they ARE WRONG AND WILL BURN IN A FIERY DAMNATION FOR ALL ETERNITY IF THEY DO NOT BELIEVE... or is it to tell them they will turn into dirt after they die and that's pretty much the end of it.

I have some questions that neither side can answer, so I'm just going to sit here and not ask for a bottled response.

Lord_Baull: This (new window) was her explanation.

Krakatoa?

You sure you gave the right link?

(But cool, Earlham! Very "Liberal" Arts school, not much Creationism there, methinks. Bonus: I know their newest Assistant Professor of Music. Great guy, skilled conductor. Miss him.)

Years and years ago, I believed in some things which, later in life, I abondoned belief in. My reasons for abandoning those beliefs were based on logic and new information. Those beliefs were replaced by a lack of belief in those things, which could be considered an alternate set of beliefs. Which is to say, I changed my mind after careful consideration of an opposing view. That is the very definition of being open-minded.

Some of the things which I abandoned a belief in include but are not limited to:

Santa Claus
The Tooth Fairy
Leprechauns
The Easter Bunny

Now that I find myself lacking a belief in the factual reality of those entities, am I considered closed-minded if I do NOT at least consider the possibility that those things are real after all? If I began to once again entertain the idea that perhaps the Tooth Fairy is real, would I be considered open-minded or an idiot?

The great thing about coming to your conclusions the RIGHT way is that you get to be certain that they are correct. Like the scientific method, there's a method to critical thinking and logic, and when you follow it as you should, you are able to be confident in your conclusions. It is NOT closed-minded to be certain in your beliefs, so long as you have arrived at them honestly and properly. Most often it is only through the open-minded exploration of possibilities that you come to them in the first place.

rastjr: Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

But, relative to itself, it's just average. Your experience is rather unusual, you must admit. You exist for a very short period of time, in a very limited location, with senses that are bound to a very small range of possible inputs. I wouldn't consider your experiences a good sample space, all things considered.

FlyingPig: Sodium Benzoate: While all of this is accurate, I'd also say a lot of people simply say "I'm agnostic" because they don't believe in gods and also don't want to argue about it.

OK, but that doesn't make it incorrect to call them an atheist.

Actually, it does. As I mentioned earlier, an Atheist has faith in the absence of proof that god does not exist; an Agnostic has no faith in the absence of proof.

i disagree entirely.

I'm agnostic BECAUSE i'm open-minded. I fully admit that the belief systems of various people all have some merit that could be helpful to them.

Thus, on that vary token, they are all correct, (but they are also all wrong, if looked at from the point of view of a competing theory).

i think if someone believes something, it is true (for them). Even if someone else thinks the opposite, their beliefs are also true.

t3knomanser: Mr.Z: My belief is... it is a chair. What exactly is a chair anyway? What makes it a 'chair'? Is it because I sit on it?

My argument would be: it exists as a chair because you perceive it as a chair. Your brain is evolved to organize the world in terms of objects. Objects exist, not in the world, but in your brain. The collection of matter you refer to as a chair isn't a chair, except insofar as you perceive it that way. It's just a blob of matter.

Thank you.

rastjr: t3knomanser: rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex not be created by a supreme being.

What makes you think the universe is large? What makes you think the universe is complex? Do you have another universe I can compare it to, to see if I think this universe is large or not?

Relative to the things I know, it is large. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I know, it is complex. That's all I can compare things to.

Relative to the things I understand biology is extremely, ridiculously, almost comically complex, but I know that other people spend a lot of time devoted to understanding it. I trust their opinion over any "Well I guess that means..." assumption I may make.

Size means nothing. It's completely relative to the size of the human body.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." --Stephen Roberts

rastjr: I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex [to] not be created by a supreme being.

Interesting. I've always believed that the universe is just too large and complex to have been created by a supreme being.

Tomatoe, tomato.

T.rex: i think if someone believes something, it is true (for them). Even if someone else thinks the opposite, their beliefs are also true.

Ah, postmodernism. Who would have thought a single school of thought could so thoroughly destroy the possibility of rational discussion.

Postmodernists are, inarguably, the biggest idiots on the planet.

FlyingPig

Sodium Benzoate: While all of this is accurate, I'd also say a lot of people simply say "I'm agnostic" because they don't believe in gods and also don't want to argue about it.

OK, but that doesn't make it incorrect to call them an atheist.


*sigh* Someone isn't paying attention.

Atheist - actively believes and is certain that there is no god

Agnostic - is not certain if there is a god, i.e. holds no active belief one way or the other

t3knomanser: hurdboy: The whole point of agnosticism is a steadfast refusal to do just that.

But they're still atheists. If you don't say, "There is a god," you're an atheist. Most atheists are agnostic, insofar as few atheists would guarantee that there is no god. But given the available evidence, most would be willing to stake a great deal on gods absence, because, let's be honest: god doesn't exactly go out of its way to make its presence known.

Again, however, that "out" isn't really worth discussing. I mean, I suppose it's possible I could get hit and killed by a meteor on the way out to my car this afternoon....there is enough evidence to the contrary to make a declaration and stop worrying about it.

/Unlike, say, Global Warming

Screw all of the belief and anti-belief systems.

Give me ambiguity or give me something else!

/if I die, tell my wife, "hello"

What if you're sure of your own uncertainty?

As in that one accepts that some things are uncertain or unknowable, for now or forever.


Oooooooh.

m2313: rastjr: I was good to people and left the world better than when I came in. That's all I can do with this life I have.

How do you know what's good? What's better?
And maybe you could have done more but you limited yourself out of fears that something was "wrong" or "worse".

I know what's good in my mind. Man, that's all I can know.