Unlocked: the secrets of schizophrenia

The voices in my head call bullshiat

Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

THIS

Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

This.

Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

SHUT UP!!!

Is the secret that schizophrenia is the leading cause of the words religions?

/DNRTFA

Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

rosonowski: Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

THIS

Shyran: Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

This.

Clarence Potter: Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

SHUT UP!!!

Every day same old conversations _{purple monkey...}

There's a government conspiracy to get people to believe multiple personalities have schizophrenia. The Freemasons are a part of the time cube.

They're watching you now.

Doktor Merkwrdiglieben: Sorry, Subby...schizophrenia != multiple personality disorder (new window)

Now GET THE DAMNED GREMLINS OFF OF ME!

Unsurprisingly beaten to the punch, yet again.

Schizophrenia is virtually non-existent in cultures that don't keep cats as pets.

There was a lady in our neighborhood who, when she skipped her meds, used to walk all over talking and yelling. We dubbed her the "Walking/Talking Lady."

One day she stopped on the sidewalk right in front of our house, turned, and yelled--to no one I could see--"Stay away! Don't touch my soul!"

This to me was the epitome of how awfully terrifying this disease must be; she thought someone was able to touch her soul.

I don't know that I really ever heard her saying nice things to the voices; she seemed terrified all the time.

I am Napoleon, and so is my wife.

wpmulligan: Schizophrenia is virtually non-existent in cultures that don't keep cats as pets.

Do these same cultures have the capacity to diagnose even a common cold?

Michael_Mythix: Is the secret that schizophrenia is the leading cause of the words religions?

/DNRTFA

I thought it was hallucinogens that led to religious belief.

This is good news for some of my exgirlfriends...

The headline is ridiculously overblown but it's nice to see even trivial progress in understanding bipolar and schizophrenia.

Current treatment regimes are roughly at the witch doctor phase where some things help some people but no one knows why or can accurately predict which will help who before hand.

I started lamotrigine recently (bipolar II) but even if it helps no one will know why or how with any precision or real understanding.

Arkanaut: I thought it was hallucinogens that led to religious belief.

Many hallucinogens imitate schizophrenia.

AnEvilGuest: if it helps no one will know why or how with any precision or real understanding.

It's funny- my wife has epilepsy. Same thing- the drugs they use for it work, but nobody knows why they work. Most of them were originally used for other conditions- a lot of them double as anti-psychotics and anti-depressants, and they just found that the bi-polar epileptics stopped having seizures on them.

We're not schizophrenic.

wpmulligan: Schizophrenia is virtually non-existent in cultures that don't keep cats as pets.

The only problem with that, is how damage to the frontal lobe has been shown to cause Schizophrenia. Have a friend who banged the front of his skull on concrete pretty hard growing up and he's a Textbook Schizophrenic. Family never owned any cats, either. I find it hard to believe people in other cultures never bang their heads.

The problem is diagnosis. To us it might be Schizophrenia, but to people in another country, who don't subscribe to the same medical journals, it could be seens as symptoms of a Sleen-Qi deficiency, or evil spirits.

The infectious agent that currently stands the best chance of being indicted as a cause of schizophrenia is Toxoplasma gondii, a protozoan parasite. Its definitive host is the cat, which is unaffected by the parasite.

The linkage to schizophrenia is intriguing. Individuals who are infected have almost a threefold chance of having schizophrenia compared with those not infected. Two studies reported that the offspring of women who have antibodies to T. gondii at birth are more likely to develop schizophrenia when they grow up. And two other studies found that people with schizophrenia have had more exposure to cats in childhood compared with individuals who do not have schizophrenia.

From an article (new window) in Forbes. A Google search for "Schizophrenia cats" yields much literature on the subject.

wpmulligan: From an article (new window) in Forbes. A Google search for "Schizophrenia cats" yields much literature on the subject.

Except schizophrenia is a definition of symptoms. So while some schizophrenia may be caused by toxo infections, we know that not all cases of it are (and we also know that not all toxo infections lead to schizophrenia).

What about the dreaded schizoid embolism?

wpmulligan: Schizophrenia is virtually non-existent in cultures that don't keep cats as pets.

(taps on shoulder, whispers in ear)

"The cats aren't real. The doctor will see you now."

While this is good news, the fact that two supposedly distinct disorders are related only underscores my belief that the DSM IV is a big ol' book of symptoms, not diagnoses. Did you know that back in the day, doctors would diagnose patients with fever? Not as in "Susie has a fever, indicating this or that illness" but as in "Susie has a fever, that's her problem".

"Doctor, doctor! My daughter's skin is burning hot and she insists she's cold whenever she isn't raving about the flying elephants only she can see!"
"Well, ma'am, it seems your daughter has... *drumroll*... a FEVER!"
"Gee, thanks, doc. Any other statements of the obvious you'd care to make?"

This is roughly parallel to:

"Doctor, doctor! Nothing gives me joy in life and I spend a lot of time fantasizing about killing myself when I'm not locked in an emotionless ennui!"
"Well, ma'am, it seems you have... *drumroll*... a case of DEPRESSION!"
"Gee, thanks, doc. I never could've figured that out for myself."
"Have you considered making yourself a cup of tea when you feel bad?"*

Someday, maybe a hundred or two hundred years from now, people will look back and shake their heads. They'll also wonder how anyone with a severe disorder survived.

*An ex-therapist of mine seriously suggested this as a treatment for when I had an "episode". Because when you're curled in a corner screaming with causeless misery, nothing cheers you up like standing there waiting for the farking kettle to boil.

/fark shrinks
//I can state the obvious for a hundred and fifty an hour, too!

wpmulligan: Schizophrenia is virtually non-existent in cultures that don't keep cats as pets.

Also, what the heck, I'll take 'em anyway. What would we make LOL macros out of if not the hairballs?

wpmulligan: Schizophrenia is virtually non-existent in cultures that don't keep cats as pets.

Absolutely untrue. While there is an intriguing link between toxoplasmosis gondii and schizophrenia, you have extended this interesting research into the ridiculous.

Psychotic disorders (Schizophrenia being the nomenclature we give to a certain psychotic pattern) are ubiquitous throughout the world. Rather than getting your medical research from Forbes, I suggest you read research done by, oh, I don't know, the WHO, or some major organization.

Helen_Arigby: While this is good news, the fact that two supposedly distinct disorders are related only underscores my belief that the DSM IV is a big ol' book of symptoms, not diagnoses. Did you know that back in the day, doctors would diagnose patients with fever? Not as in "Susie has a fever, indicating this or that illness" but as in "Susie has a fever, that's her problem".

"Doctor, doctor! My daughter's skin is burning hot and she insists she's cold whenever she isn't raving about the flying elephants only she can see!"
"Well, ma'am, it seems your daughter has... *drumroll*... a FEVER!"
"Gee, thanks, doc. Any other statements of the obvious you'd care to make?"

This is roughly parallel to:

"Doctor, doctor! Nothing gives me joy in life and I spend a lot of time fantasizing about killing myself when I'm not locked in an emotionless ennui!"
"Well, ma'am, it seems you have... *drumroll*... a case of DEPRESSION!"
"Gee, thanks, doc. I never could've figured that out for myself."
"Have you considered making yourself a cup of tea when you feel bad?"*

Someday, maybe a hundred or two hundred years from now, people will look back and shake their heads. They'll also wonder how anyone with a severe disorder survived.

*An ex-therapist of mine seriously suggested this as a treatment for when I had an "episode". Because when you're curled in a corner screaming with causeless misery, nothing cheers you up like standing there waiting for the farking kettle to boil.

/fark shrinks
//I can state the obvious for a hundred and fifty an hour, too!

A real shrink here, free of charge!

Ironically, you state the obvious yourself. The DSM-IV is a collection of symptoms. All diagnoses, in fact, are a collection of symptoms. "Congestive Heart Failure" is the presence of reduced cardiac output and edema, and other physical symptoms. "Acute Myocardial Infarction" is the the blockage of a heart vessel leading to pain, sweating, shortness of breath, and other minor symptoms such as death. The DSM-IV, and the DSM-V that will soon follow, are attempts to synthesize repeated symptom-clusters into groups. They are neither handed down by the "disease gods" nor are they discrptions of biochemical processes. They are simply symptom clusters organized into categories.

Depression, in the poor example you gave, is not the medical diagnosis. "Major depressive disorder" is the combination of low mood or loss of interest + 5 other symptoms from a list of 9. Sleep impairment, appetite, etc. When a doctor says they think you have a depression, they don't mean you're sad. They mean they believe you have the set of symptoms that describe a major depressive episode. Diagnostic categories allow symptom collection to do research for pharmaceutical and therapeutic research, as well as allow us to use the right treatment for the right patient. A doctor is not simply reflecting your mood when they say "you have a depression." Sadness =! depression.

When I treat patients, I explain to them that the diagnosis is simply the name for the set of symptoms, and that each person is unique and may not fit the categories perfectly. However we still use diagnoses to prescribe treatment, communicate with other physicians, and for important things like insurance. Having a name for the disorder makes a big difference to some people, even for relatively "Simple" diagnoses such as major depressive disorder.

isn't it just lack of vitamin D as being in the presence of shiat (cat shiat usually) when growing up?

/not an expert

*as well as being

Sounds like subby is making fun of multiple personality disorder, not schizophrenia.

/former mental patient, but I was in for drug abuse.

AdamK: isn't it just lack of vitamin D as being in the presence of shiat (cat shiat usually) when growing up?

/not an expert

No.

"I dont listen to them though"

/obscure

The LA Times ran this fascinating story about a little girl with raging schizophrenia. I would have submitted it, but I couldn't come up with a decent headline.

Let's see, here's my family history:

Mom's side:
Chronic Depression grandmother
3 Schizo Uncles
1 Bi-Polar Uncle
Insane Grandfather (Not really able to clasify it, he thinks my mother is a CIA plant)

Dad's Side:
Some depression

Not sure I want to have kids...in case anything get's passed on.

I live with two people, I like both of them
He likes both of me and I like both of him
They're my alter-ego and to them I'm wed
'Cause I'm happy I live in a split-level head

Had a girlfriend with Borderline Personality Disorder. I would take the schizophrenia anyday.

/everyday was scary
//never knew what I was coming home to

The six year old girl came from two families with long histories of mental illness. On top of that mom and dad are both medicated for mental health issues. You sure wouldn't expect any trouble there. Of course they'll want the state to pick up the tab. Idiots.

codewerdna: Not sure I want to have kids...in case anything get's passed on.

Reality TV is on Line Two. They'd like you to reconsider.

Years ago I was set up on a blind date with one of the doctors at NIH who were working on this. She was absolutely freaking gorgeous (seriously, like TV pretty), sweet as can be, a nice wholesome girl from a good family and a doctor of molecular biology (IIRC) - so obviously pretty intelligent to boot.

And here she was going out with me... at the time an unpapered atheist dude from a broken home whose looks might be around a 7 on a *good* day.

I took her to a very nice restaurant for dinner, was careful not to lay my "game" on too thick but still be as charming as I could. We had a great dinner, walked around the city chatting for a couple hours and seemed to have a really good date.

And I didn't get call back when I left her a message or two for a second date. I have absolutely no clue exactly where I screwed up, but I sure don't blame her. She was waaaaaaay out of my league. Gave it a good try though!


Nothing really to do with TFA... Since she was working on that project it just made me remember that.

Ham salad my loquacious freemartins space receiver, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

Schizophrenia, or really any mental illness involving delusions, is like my number 1 fear. Worse than going blind, worse than paralysis, worse than death. To not be able to trust your own brain. . .

Oddly enough, I would love to experience severe hallucinations and delusions temporarily. Unfortunately, my tendency to want to analyze the experience rationally as it is happening has made past experiments with hallucinogens rather lackluster.

RemyDuron: Oddly enough, I would love to experience severe hallucinations and delusions temporarily.

You could join the new Republican party for a while...

DubyaHater: Had a girlfriend with Borderline Personality Disorder. I would take the schizophrenia anyday.

/everyday was scary
//never knew what I was coming home to

Boy do I agree with this. Ex-fiancee was BPD, seriously a crap shoot every time I walked into the apartment. She ended up poisoning my cat because she wanted to see me more (or something like that anyway) and told me she wanted to watch me bleed to death when I finally grew the stones/brains to jet. Fun times.

/ended up as a great film script though
//probably just normal female behavior
///I keed
////mostly

AmazingRuss: Ham salad my loquacious freemartins space receiver, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.


this!

RemyDuron: Oddly enough, I would love to experience severe hallucinations and delusions temporarily. Unfortunately, my tendency to want to analyze the experience rationally as it is happening has made past experiments with hallucinogens rather lackluster.

Haven't you heard of acid?

AnEvilGuest: I started lamotrigine recently (bipolar II) but even if it helps no one will know why or how with any precision or real understanding.

Atypical antipsychotics kept my adolescent from being institutionalized with bipolar. Then a very odd thing happened. When he entered puberty almost all of his symptoms subsided.

wpmulligan: The infectious agent that currently stands the best chance of being indicted as a cause of schizophrenia is Toxoplasma gondii, a protozoan parasite. Its definitive host is the cat, which is unaffected by the parasite.

The linkage to schizophrenia is intriguing. Individuals who are infected have almost a threefold chance of having schizophrenia compared with those not infected. Two studies reported that the offspring of women who have antibodies to T. gondii at birth are more likely to develop schizophrenia when they grow up. And two other studies found that people with schizophrenia have had more exposure to cats in childhood compared with individuals who do not have schizophrenia.

From an article (new window) in Forbes. A Google search for "Schizophrenia cats" yields much literature on the subject.

Oh baloney. Anyone who has ever been owned by a cat knows they see shiat that's not there.

Flavivirus: The DSM-IV is a collection of symptoms. All diagnoses, in fact, are a collection of symptoms.

Wow, yet more evidence that psychs are arrogant farking asshats, with little understanding of data collection, deduction, and/or logic.

While many diagnosis in traditional medicine start as a "collection of symptoms", many do not stop there. Collecting a sample and culturing a bacteria is not a "symptom", it's real causative evidence. The real diagnosis isn't "sore throat" or "a cold", it's "strep throat by streptococcus". The diagnosis isn't "horrible pain in the legs", it's "a broken femur, as shown by this x-ray".

Yes, I know the field of mental health is in it's infancy, and we do not have the luxury of such real evidence-based testing in many cases. The absence of such real causative evidence does not raise "collections of symptoms" to a proper diagnosis, and it does not change the fact that you are guessing based on indirect observations.

A doctor is not simply reflecting your mood when they say "you have a depression."

What BS. I've not only had two doctors do that exact thing; one of which stated that reasoning explicitly. The conflating of the different meanings for the word "depression" happened a lot in conversations with that doctor in particular.

Your profession is far less rigorous that you seem to think.

ZekeMacNeil: RemyDuron: Oddly enough, I would love to experience severe hallucinations and delusions temporarily. Unfortunately, my tendency to want to analyze the experience rationally as it is happening has made past experiments with hallucinogens rather lackluster.

Haven't you heard of acid?

Getting your hands on acid if you aren't friends with at least one old school hippy who happens to be an organic chemist is not easy. I can't even find pot on my own, I'm hopeless looking for acid.

I have done shrooms, salvia, and LSA. Salvia actually does give me delusions, but no visual or auditory hallucinations (I think someone is there who isn't, and that they are talking to me, but I never see or hear them). On shrooms I get some mild visuals, everything sort of pulses and "breaths" sometimes I see faint patterns of light across surfaces, and of course my patten recognition gets kicked up to ridiculous levels and i can spend 30 minutes staring at wood grain, but I've never seen, like, a person or a monster than wasn't there. No hallucination that could be mistaken for real. LSA, well, that was just like being nauseous for 12 hours. Bleh.

pdkl95: Flavivirus: The DSM-IV is a collection of symptoms. All diagnoses, in fact, are a collection of symptoms.

Wow, yet more evidence that psychs are arrogant farking asshats, with little understanding of data collection, deduction, and/or logic.

While many diagnosis in traditional medicine start as a "collection of symptoms", many do not stop there. Collecting a sample and culturing a bacteria is not a "symptom", it's real causative evidence. The real diagnosis isn't "sore throat" or "a cold", it's "strep throat by streptococcus". The diagnosis isn't "horrible pain in the legs", it's "a broken femur, as shown by this x-ray".

Yes, I know the field of mental health is in it's infancy, and we do not have the luxury of such real evidence-based testing in many cases. The absence of such real causative evidence does not raise "collections of symptoms" to a proper diagnosis, and it does not change the fact that you are guessing based on indirect observations.

A doctor is not simply reflecting your mood when they say "you have a depression."

What BS. I've not only had two doctors do that exact thing; one of which stated that reasoning explicitly. The conflating of the different meanings for the word "depression" happened a lot in conversations with that doctor in particular.

Your profession is far less rigorous that you seem to think.

Uh. . . maybe, just maybe, psychological diseases are much more complex than "normal" diseases and psychiatrists don't understand the causes because NO ONE does. The brain is ridiculously complex and really it was only in the second half of the 20th century that we made great strides in studying it.

LegalizeThoughtCrime: I am Napoleon, and so is my wife.

Ah, a classic case of Folie a Deux

ZekeMacNeil: RemyDuron: Oddly enough, I would love to experience severe hallucinations and delusions temporarily. Unfortunately, my tendency to want to analyze the experience rationally as it is happening has made past experiments with hallucinogens rather lackluster.

Haven't you heard of acid?

Acid is like a very mild schizophrenic episode. They are really not alike.

/speak from experience; diagnosed as bipolar with schizo-affective disorder
//doctors at the county (2001) said I was the worst case they had ever seen and that I probably wasn't going to make it back

Helen_Arigby 2009-07-02 01:50:50 PM
While this is good news, the fact that two supposedly distinct disorders are related only underscores my belief that the DSM IV is a big ol' book of symptoms, not diagnoses. Did you know that back in the day, doctors would diagnose patients with fever? Not as in "Susie has a fever, indicating this or that illness" but as in "Susie has a fever, that's her problem".

"Doctor, doctor! My daughter's skin is burning hot and she insists she's cold whenever she isn't raving about the flying elephants only she can see!"
"Well, ma'am, it seems your daughter has... *drumroll*... a FEVER!"
"Gee, thanks, doc. Any other statements of the obvious you'd care to make?"

This is roughly parallel to:

"Doctor, doctor! Nothing gives me joy in life and I spend a lot of time fantasizing about killing myself when I'm not locked in an emotionless ennui!"
"Well, ma'am, it seems you have... *drumroll*... a case of DEPRESSION!"
"Gee, thanks, doc. I never could've figured that out for myself."
"Have you considered making yourself a cup of tea when you feel bad?"*

Someday, maybe a hundred or two hundred years from now, people will look back and shake their heads. They'll also wonder how anyone with a severe disorder survived.

*An ex-therapist of mine seriously suggested this as a treatment for when I had an "episode". Because when you're curled in a corner screaming with causeless misery, nothing cheers you up like standing there waiting for the farking kettle to boil.

/fark shrinks
//I can state the obvious for a hundred and fifty an hour, too!

While I agree with your statement concerning the DSM-IV, I must caution you that, as a psychologist myself, I will admit that a significant percentage of the population fail to see what you call "obvious", hence the reason they are sitting in my waiting room nine hours a day. Most people never learn to "cope" with the "obvious" factions of life, thus rendering them incapable of proper function, which leads me to wonder that had you no access to one, would your situation be different now?

/just sayin
//love my job

Yeah, well, you might be Boney, but I'm Lord Nelson. And Horatio Hornblower, too.

Oh for the love. I guess somebody MAY have said it but I'm not sitting through the thread and apparently humanz need things repeated a JILLION times.

SCHIZOPHRENIA !=MPD.
SCHIZOPHRENIA !=MPD.
SCHIZOPHRENIA !=MPD.

Dictionary.com, subby. It is your friend.

pdkl95: Flavivirus: The DSM-IV is a collection of symptoms. All diagnoses, in fact, are a collection of symptoms.

Wow, yet more evidence that psychs are arrogant farking asshats, with little understanding of data collection, deduction, and/or logic.

While many diagnosis in traditional medicine start as a "collection of symptoms", many do not stop there. Collecting a sample and culturing a bacteria is not a "symptom", it's real causative evidence. The real diagnosis isn't "sore throat" or "a cold", it's "strep throat by streptococcus". The diagnosis isn't "horrible pain in the legs", it's "a broken femur, as shown by this x-ray".

Yes, I know the field of mental health is in it's infancy, and we do not have the luxury of such real evidence-based testing in many cases. The absence of such real causative evidence does not raise "collections of symptoms" to a proper diagnosis, and it does not change the fact that you are guessing based on indirect observations.

A doctor is not simply reflecting your mood when they say "you have a depression."

What BS. I've not only had two doctors do that exact thing; one of which stated that reasoning explicitly. The conflating of the different meanings for the word "depression" happened a lot in conversations with that doctor in particular.

Your profession is far less rigorous that you seem to think.

Perhaps the problem lies with your doctors rather than the profession itself. Your use of the word "psychs" likely underscores your leanings, as only "anti-psychs" use this type of language.

Diagnosis is the attempt to understand the nature of something. Ie) A cluster of symptoms becomes "gastrointestinal ulcers", or pain in the leg becomes "fracture of femur". The collection of evidence and symptoms leads to the diagnosis, but even a fracture of a femur can in fact be something else - was there cancerous erosion leading to the fracture? How about a nutritional deficiency that led to bone weakness. The fracture itself can be a symptom of another diagnosis. Do not kid yourself into thinking that a test like an X-ray or a blood culture is the be-all-end-all of diagnosis.

Regardless, you will likely never read this, but my profession is well into the science portion of what we do. You might want to read up on it sometime, rather than using L Ron's cookbook.