Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.

Plural of cactus: cacti
Plural of alumnus: alumni
Plural of doofus: doofi?

UNC_Samurai: Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.

I don't even understand why fans of small market clubs even bother. The deck is permanantly stacked against you.

Wait, he's not apologizing for the doofi?

He's upset about losing a 29-year-old corner outfielder who has a low-700s OPS and is supposedly a speedster but fails on over a third of his base stealing attempts? Nyjer, please.

Spike Lee's Favorite Farker: UNC_Samurai: Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.

I don't even understand why fans of small market clubs even bother. The deck is permanantly stacked against you.

I think you missed the point. They aren't bothering because they are profitable. Any salary cap/luxury tax is a scam so small market teams can make money, not so they remian competitive.

I have a buddy who roots for the pirates (poor guy)

he pointed out that small market teams are like welfare for the rich.
do nothing and get paid.
They need a minimum salary requirement as much as salary cap.
(for the team, not individual. "salary shoe" "salary basement"
pretty sure there is a proper term I am missing.

Super Chronic: He's upset about losing a 29-year-old corner outfielder who has a low-700s OPS and is supposedly a speedster but fails on over a third of his base stealing attempts? Nyjer, please.

It's better than what they got in return.

papabusche: (for the team, not individual. "salary shoe" "salary basement"
pretty sure there is a proper term I am missing.

floor

I, for one, applaud the decision-making capabilities of Pirates management.

/Red Sox fan

markyp09: Super Chronic: He's upset about losing a 29-year-old corner outfielder who has a low-700s OPS and is supposedly a speedster but fails on over a third of his base stealing attempts? Nyjer, please.

It's better than what they got in return.

No its not, they bought low on Milledge, who should never have been sent to AAA to begin with, and Hanrahan, who is unlucky.

Of course a Pirates fan will tell you that Nyjer had all the grit hustle and desire of Big Ben, but what nobody (current players included) seem to realize is that the current team SUCKS, and has sucked for 16 years. When you have a team this bad, you tear it apart and trade anything of value to rebuild. And for the first time in a long time, the Pirates actually got good prospects back.

Spike Lee's Favorite Farker: I don't even understand why fans of small market clubs even bother. The deck is permanantly stacked against you.

Since the Pirates have been on their losing streak, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays have been created, lost a few seasons, drafted well, ripped off the Mets, made smart trades, grew some superstars, added a couple cheap pieces through free agency and won the toughest division in baseball, and the American League Pennant. Its not the market.

Brooklyn Irish Mets Fan:
Since the Pirates have been on their losing streak, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays have been created, lost a few seasons, drafted well, ripped off the Mets, made smart trades, grew some superstars, added a couple cheap pieces through free agency and won the toughest division in baseball, and the American League Pennant. Its not the market.

Not to mention the Twins have been very successful by focusing on developing SP and monitoring everyone else's minors and focusing on acquiring players that would fit their system (Garza/Young trade the exception to that rule).

You could have given the Pirates $150M to spend every year, and they still would have sucked. The old management did not have a single baseball clue in their collective baseball mind. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt by blaming the budget, they sucked.

Brooklyn Irish Mets Fan: I agree totally, Nyjer had some hustle but he wasn't "it", but rather looked like he could be to another team. Milledge is a great player w/ upside (and of course, off the field issues..) and Hanrahan just needs some patience by his team. Granted, the Pirates apparently have no patience w/ anyone, especially the "prospects", but it's a start...ish....

/The Buccos, rebuilding since 1993
//Cmon guys, break that .500 barrier this year and we'll have the clean sweep of awesome in the Burgh for 09! PLEASE.

papabusche: I have a buddy who roots for the pirates (poor guy)

he pointed out that small market teams are like welfare for the rich.
do nothing and get paid.
They need a minimum salary requirement as much as salary cap.
(for the team, not individual. "salary shoe" "salary basement"
pretty sure there is a proper term I am missing.

They do have one -- in an indirect way. The players CBA has a minimum salary ($390,000 in 2008 [ref^]), so with the 40 man roster that puts a salary floor at $15.6 million.

Yeah, ummm, ask Bud and Wendy Selig about running a small market team (MKE) and pocketing the luxury tax money--meant for improving the team. He knows all about it.

This (new window)

"I don't know how I feel about you wearing one useless glove, son. Though I guess if Andy LaRoche can do it...."

HamBurghlar:
//Cmon guys, break that .500 barrier this year and we'll have the clean sweep of awesome in the Burgh for 09! PLEASE.

Doesn't really count when you dont have a basketball team. ;)

UNC_Samurai: Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.

No, Pittsburgh's ownership is terrible. Sure, there are some challenges to being in a small market, but there are small markets that are comparable in size with Pittsburgh that have much more success (Milwaukee, Tampa Bay and St. Louis are all roughly as small as Pittsburgh in terms of the media market, and while the Cardinals enjoy the most support in their own market, there's really no reason that Pittsburgh should fail as spectacularly as they have in recent years given the comparisons).

Brooklyn Irish Mets Fan: Of course a Pirates fan will tell you that Nyjer had all the grit hustle and desire of Big Ben, but what nobody (current players included) seem to realize is that the current team SUCKS, and has sucked for 16 years.

Not this Pirates fan. He was playing over his head and we sold high. Milledge might not work out, but the "low risk/low reward" game is what we had for all those years under Dave Littlefield, and frankly, I'm glad to see trades that bring in people who aren't Shawn Chacon or Jeromy Burnitz, as we've had prior. As much as the Pirates have claimed they've been rebuilding since 1993, they haven't been. They've scouted terribly, neglected the Latin American talent pool (until two years ago, which how do you do that) and traded half-decent talent for "safe" players, while the ownership spent as little as they could on payroll while pocketing revenue sharing money. The Milledge trade at least has some upside, and while Hanrahan's been bad in Washington, he also had the Nationals playing defense.

bacongood: You could have given the Pirates $150M to spend every year, and they still would have sucked. The old management did not have a single baseball clue in their collective baseball mind. Don't give them the benefit of the doubt by blaming the budget, they sucked.

Well, they'd have pocketed at least $100M of that.

Someone who will be listened to has to do it.

Dear Pirates Management:

You suck.

-vento

Murphyr: No, Pittsburgh's ownership is terrible. Sure, there are some challenges to being in a small market, but there are small markets that are comparable in size with Pittsburgh that have much more success (Milwaukee, Tampa Bay and St. Louis are all roughly as small as Pittsburgh in terms of the media market, and while the Cardinals enjoy the most support in their own market, there's really no reason that Pittsburgh should fail as spectacularly as they have in recent years given the comparisons

Not to mention you have arguably the nicest ballpark in all of baseball, certainly a top 2 or 3. I'd think if they could go .500 and look like they're moving in the right direction the fans would come out big time, you don't need a lot of excuses to go see a game in that park. Bonifay and Littlefield were just awful. The owners didn't help matters either.

LemSkroob: HamBurghlar:
//Cmon guys, break that .500 barrier this year and we'll have the clean sweep of awesome in the Burgh for 09! PLEASE.

Doesn't really count when you don't have a basketball team. ;)

Who needs a basketball team when we have the PASSION of the IWFL? Over their last 5 games, they have outscored the opponents: 248-45. That's domination.

Duke_Phillips: But do you really think the Pirate's ownership doesn't realize they'd make way more money if they fielded a competitive product?

Eventually, sure. As it stands, they make a profit before the gates open on opening day, thanks to revenue sharing. Actually committing to scouting, paying for talent and developing infrastructure costs money in the short run, and they've been reluctant to do it, instead bringing in veteran Pirates (like Joe Randa a few years back and banking on "nice guys" so that fans will overlook the fact that they can't play) and giving away bobbleheads to get people into the park. Why bother spending money now when you can continue to rake in profits without it?

LemSkroob, abmoraz: HamBurghlar:
//Cmon guys, break that .500 barrier this year and we'll have the clean sweep of awesome in the Burgh for 09! PLEASE.

Doesn't really count when you don't have a basketball team. ;)

Who needs a basketball team when we have the PASSION of the IWFL? Over their last 5 games, they have outscored the opponents: 248-45. That's domination.

True on both counts.. I guess they do count the NBA as one of the 3 major sports, but we could totally have an expansion team that's better than OK City!

And the Passion are a complete juggernaut! That has to account for at least a tenth of a "big 3" sport.. right?

/boobs and football..mmmm....

Brooklyn Irish Mets Fan:
Since the Pirates have been on their losing streak, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays have been created, lost a few seasons, drafted well, ripped off the Mets, made smart trades, grew some superstars, added a couple cheap pieces through free agency and won the toughest division in baseball, and the American League Pennant. Its not the market.

Forget the Rays, the Marlins have joined the major leagues, built up and subsequently torn apart World Series champions twice and still had time for a youth movement starting to pay dividends. The Pirates should be confiscated and sold to the highest bidder.

Yes the Pirates are cheap but the biggest problem with the team was the crappy minor league system and coaches.
Spin Williams, Lloyd McClenndon, Trent Jewitt - How many can't miss ballplayers, from Warren Morris to Chad Hermanson to Jason Schmidt never got any better until they were out of town or out of baseball all together.

I'm just hoping, nay praying, that this has been improved.

And as for Jack Wilson he needs to shut his trap and play baseball.

UNC_Samurai: Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.

This

Spike Lee's Favorite Farker

I don't even understand why fans of small market clubs even bother. The deck is permanantly stacked against you.

The Florida Marlins beg to differ. 2 World Series in 16 years with the last one coming at the expense of the Stankees. Of course they dump salary afterward and start over, but the point is if you have a good farm system and a good GM you can run a reputable team on a shoestring budget.

/It does piss me off though that we trade the good players we developed like Beckett and Cabrera as soon as their contracts are up and we can't afford them anymore.

If the Pirates could play the Mets all the time, they'd be in the playoffs.

Brooklyn Irish Mets Fan: No its not, they bought low on Milledge, who should never have been sent to AAA to begin with, and Hanrahan, who is unlucky.

Yikes, he was. Actual ERA: 7.49, thanks to a .450 BABIP, which is at least in part due to playing in front of the worst defense in the NL.

ERA calculated via Fielder Independent Pitching: 3.48

It shows you what you'd think by looking at the events that Hanranhan could control: 33.2 IP, 36 K, 14 BB, 3 HR-- that's about the league average for 8th/9th inning guys.

UNC_Samurai 2009-07-02 08:54:36 AM Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.
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Everytime they get good players, recent example: Jason Bay. They trade them away. They have spectacular minor leagues year after year, get great 1st and 2nd year players, year after year... and then as soon as they get remotely decent, they trade them away.

The penguins drafted Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, and Staal 4 years in a row 1st round. They KEPT THEM. They built a core of players. BY KEEPING THEM. They then traded for veteran presences (Recchi, Roberts, Hossa, Guerin, Gonchar) to surround them and two years in a row they made it to the stanley cup playoffs.

It was 5 years (6 inc lockout) in the making but they showed EXACTLY how to do it.

If only the pirates would learn...

jake3988: UNC_Samurai 2009-07-02 08:54:36 AM Don't blame the ownership; blame the system that makes losing small-market teams profitable.
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Everytime they get good players, recent example: Jason Bay. They trade them away. They have spectacular minor leagues year after year, get great 1st and 2nd year players, year after year... and then as soon as they get remotely decent, they trade them away.

The penguins drafted Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, and Staal 4 years in a row 1st round. They KEPT THEM. They built a core of players. BY KEEPING THEM. They then traded for veteran presences (Recchi, Roberts, Hossa, Guerin, Gonchar) to surround them and two years in a row they made it to the stanley cup playoffs.

It was 5 years (6 inc lockout) in the making but they showed EXACTLY how to do it.

If only the pirates would learn...



If only they still had bay, they could be on their way to world series #6!

If the Pirates built a team as well as they built PNC, they'd have a Dodgers-like lead in the NL Central right now. That is one hell of a nice place to watch a game.

I, for one, like this trade. Milledge was terrible at the beginning of the year and then he broke his hand, and Hanrahan doesn't know what he's doing.

Good show, Bucs!

/Lets go Nats!
//2012 World Champs fo sho'

Brooklyn Irish Mets Fan: The penguins drafted Fleury, Malkin, Crosby, and Staal 4 years in a row 1st round. They KEPT THEM. They built a core of players. BY KEEPING THEM. They then traded for veteran presences (Recchi, Roberts, Hossa, Guerin, Gonchar) to surround them and two years in a row they made it to the stanley cup playoffs.

Yes, the Pens had a bunch of very early first round picks (First, Second, First and Second overall) and used those incredibly early picks well. The Pirates picks since 2000 have been Sean Burnett (plagued by injury, now a National), John Van Benschoten (who has the record for highest ERA by a pitcher who's thrown at least 75 innings), Bryan Bullington (DFA'd, then picked up by the Indians, then the Blue Jays), Paul Maholm, Neil Walker, Andrew McCutchen (hey! a decent prospect!), Brad Lincoln (decent pick, but ran into injury trouble and immediately had Tommy John surgery), Danny Moskos (because Dave Littlefield loved middle relievers) and it's to say anything, really on Sanchez and Alvarez.

The farm system is in absolute shambles after years of Bonifay and Littlefield (because of the of the "trade away the future for a present shot at having a winning season" mindset and Littlefield's inordinate love for veterans), and trading mediocre players like Morgan is necessary to rebuilding that. Once that's rebuilt, they have a decent chance at competing, but keeping Jason Bay wasn't going to push them over .500. Neither was keeping McLouth, nor Morgan.

All the Bucs haters - have at Littlefield and Bonifay all you want. They deserve your scorn.

The new front office (Coonley/Huntington) actually has a plan and is executing it. Painful to watch at times and not for those Bucs fans needing immediate gratification. If Littlefield had started an intelligent full-scale from-the-ground-up rebuildling plan at any time during his tenure, Bucs would likely be a front runner today - all the town needs is a hope of a winner to show up. Instead we got Reggie Sanders, Pat Meares, Derek "Operation Shutdown" Bell, a bunch of burned out college draft picks and a waiting list for arm surgeries.

There's no other reasonable way to do it other than the way the current regime (in place only 1.5 yrs) is doing it. But even Neal said (most likely referring to whining from Jack and Adam), "If the current team goes on a run and finds itself in contention, it would make it difficult to continue making trades." Contention is a couple of games out, not six or seven. So it's up to Jack and Adam and Freddie to actually start hitting in RISP situations.

Meantime, some sportswriter needs to get Njyer and Clinton Portis together. That would be pure awesome.