TonnageVT: ONE AND A HALF MONTHS TO GO.....SUCK IT HATERS!!

The Envoy: I was talking about the concept of football the sport, not the modern iteration that is soccer, I got my terms wrong. We can go all the way back to the 12th century in England, London and Ashbourne, although those games resembled a mass brawl, for some of the earliest "organised" games.

So game that more clearly resembeled American Football than Soccer are evidence that soccer is older?

yeah... uh... about that.

As I said, all of these football codes like rugby, american and association developed at roughly the same time. Soccer probably actually came the furtherest and is LEAST like the ancient versions.

The probelm is the money involved. For making the Champions League final a club can expect to earn £20million in TV rights alone. That's to say nothing of the merchandise. For that amount of money clubs will condone most actions to win, and that includes diving. Much like you, I'm sick of it, but the FA and FIFA don't seem to be at all bothered by it, which is irritating. If they started fining players and their clubs for it you'd soon see it decrease. The thing that REALLY bothers me about it is that a lot of times they'd have got a larger advantage from staying on their feet.

Regarding the sponsorship, I think a lot of it is down to the fact that football (as an Englishman I refuse to call it "soccer"!) has a truly global audience whereas The NFL, MLB and MLS' audiences are mostly domestic. I would wager that an increase in audience would see an increase in sponsorship deals there too. Oh, and every club has their logo on their chest!

Bill Frist: So game that more clearly resembeled American Football than Soccer are evidence that soccer is older?

yeah... uh... about that.

As I said, all of these football codes like rugby, american and association developed at roughly the same time. Soccer probably actually came the furtherest and is LEAST like the ancient versions.

Are you aware that rugby was developed as an off-shoot of soccer and not the other way around? Just because the level of physical contact was more akin to today's American Football does not mean the tactics are the same. One involves kicking, one handling. The advent of picking up the ball and running with it came much later than the 12th Century. Look up William Webb Ellis.

ggggbabybabybaby: The NFL, NBA, MLB, etc.. are all super strict on what kind of stuff you can have on your uniform which I think is pretty classy as opposed to I don't know a giant "AIG" logo on the front of your uniform with no team name in-sight.

I agree, but all those leagues will do it in a heartbeat if they ever think they can get away with it. Remember that Yankees exhibition game in Japan several years ago? The players had "RICOH" (I think) stamped on their batting helmets, and they were obviously just testing the waters to see how loudly the fans back home would howl.

Anyway, I don't understand the soccer hate. It's a game with great athleticism, fierce club and international rivalries, a fascinating and often quirky history, fanatical supporters who sing hilariously foul-mouthed chants, and Andres Cantor (GOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL!). If you don't like it, don't watch, but the constant need to denigrate it is bizarre. I don't watch hockey, but I don't feel compelled to clutter hockey threads with "LOL WAKE ME UP WHEN THE ICE WRESTLING IS OVER!11!!" or some such. It's your loss, soccer haters.

/I like American football, too.
//Also, COME ON YOU SPURS!


///HOTspur

Doc Daneeka: The Envoy: Bill Frist: Soccer does not predate American football, or not by any significant time. They both developed pretty much simultaneously.

Good one!

Association football (soccer) in its modern form began with the formation of the Football Association in 1863 and the promulgation of its rules (earlier rules permitted carrying the ball and tackling, and would not be recognizable as modern soccer).

American football in its modern form began with a series of games played between Harvard University and McGill University in 1874. Unless you consider 11 years to be a huge historical difference.

So yeah, both sports really developed around the same time.

That's kind of false - the formation of the Football Association happened long after soccer/ football / whatever existed:

Link (new window)

fo_sho!: Doc Daneeka: The Envoy: Bill Frist: Soccer does not predate American football, or not by any significant time. They both developed pretty much simultaneously.

Good one!

Association football (soccer) in its modern form began with the formation of the Football Association in 1863 and the promulgation of its rules (earlier rules permitted carrying the ball and tackling, and would not be recognizable as modern soccer).

American football in its modern form began with a series of games played between Harvard University and McGill University in 1874. Unless you consider 11 years to be a huge historical difference.

So yeah, both sports really developed around the same time.

That's kind of false - the formation of the Football Association happened long after soccer/ football / whatever existed:

Link (new window)

Well, yes and no.

"Football" pre-existed that time, but I'm not sure if you can say that association football/soccer did, in a recognizable form.

Early football games played by many different rules, some which emphasized carrying the ball and more closely resembled rugby, and some which emphasized kicking the ball. The various forms of football didn't start to officially codify their rules until the mid-late 19th Century.

Soccer and all other forms of football evolved from these early precursor football games. They all have a claim to that history. Its pointless to try to argue that soccer predates other forms of football by Centuries, when they all evolved from the same common ancestry.

The Envoy: Are you aware that rugby was developed as an off-shoot of soccer and not the other way around? Just because the level of physical contact was more akin to today's American Football does not mean the tactics are the same.

Uh, I'm not aware of it because it is not true. As you yourself noted, the "common ancestor" of hte various football codes was more akin to rugby than it was to modern soccer.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing that the ancient football game in england WAS american football, obviously it was not (again, it was more like rugby) but it was more similar to american football than soccer in all liklihood.

Hey jerks, stop arguing, the first football game in America was between Rutgers and Princeton, it was a hybrid of modern day American football, association football and rugy. Look it up, I'm at work right now, but can't.


COME ON UNITED!!!

PS....The only football that matters come August.

For those earlier in the thread complaining about football's lack of contact, I just wanted to submit some photos of folks getting stapled shut on the sideline:



- although she actually got stitched and then came back on.

oh, and here is video Eddie Lewis getting TKO'd against Guatemala:
Link (new window)

One thing that could help curb diving in soccer would be a video replay system. I know it's not really feasible with the speed of the game, but you could always fine the shiat out of the player later on or impose a red or yellow card that could keep them out of the next game. This may not be the best idea, but I feel that dives degrade soccer and need to be addressed. I'm looking at you, especially, Italy.

Came for a Dan Rydell quote, but evidently I have to do everything myself.

"We'll bring you the thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat, and because we've got soccer highlights, the sheer pointlessness of a zero-zero tie."

And:
"I know we promised you soccer highlights, so let me just tell you that Columbus beat Miami one-nothing, Dallas beat San Jose one-nothing, Chicago beat Colorado one-nothing, and New England beat Kansas City 2-1 in an offensive slugfest."

Bill Frist: Uh, I'm not aware of it because it is not true. As you yourself noted, the "common ancestor" of hte various football codes was more akin to rugby than it was to modern soccer.

William Webb Ellis first picked up the ball and ran with it instead of kicking it during a game of football at his school. That school? Rugby. There are further versions where he sat on the ball first, hence the odd-shaped ball, but these are most likely a myth.

However, it's disingenuous of me to hark back to a sport's very beginnings and then, when discussing another sport hark back to it's relatively modern iteration rather than the common ancestor, so I do concede that point.

I do think that experience of the game is key to enjoying it so much. Most kids in the UK play football and grow up with the game, playing in local teams etc. It's when you get to the early teens that those with real talent begin to stand out and then, as one without that talent, it becomes apparent how difficult it is to play to a high level. It may look dull to you as teams are fairly evenly matched, but having played against(and been thrashed by) a professional team's junior squad, believe me the gulf is enormous!

Finally, in my bid to turn you, search these out on youtube. I would link, but it's banned at work.
Thierry Henry v Manchester Utd.
Rooney v Newcastle
Le Tissier v Newcastle
Gascoigne v Holland, 1996
Cantona v Sunderland

All are great goals showing fantastic skill. Henry and Le Tissier in particular.

Xlr8urfark: One thing that could help curb diving in soccer would be a video replay system. I know it's not really feasible with the speed of the game, but you could always fine the shiat out of the player later on or impose a red or yellow card that could keep them out of the next game. This may not be the best idea, but I feel that dives degrade soccer and need to be addressed. I'm looking at you, especially, Italy.

It's within the power of the refs to not reward diving. They just need to do it. Some leagues are better than others. Generally, there's less tolerance for diving in the Northern European leagues than in the Southern European and Latin American leagues. I haven't watched much MLS, so I'm not sure about the situation here. I've watched my local USL team, though, and haven't seen a whole lot of operatic diving, but maybe that's because most of the players are pretty young and haven't learned how to work the refs. (Or maybe the coach, who is English, frowns upon such shenanigans.)

Renart: Xlr8urfark: One thing that could help curb diving in soccer would be a video replay system. I know it's not really feasible with the speed of the game, but you could always fine the shiat out of the player later on or impose a red or yellow card that could keep them out of the next game. This may not be the best idea, but I feel that dives degrade soccer and need to be addressed. I'm looking at you, especially, Italy.

It's within the power of the refs to not reward diving. They just need to do it. Some leagues are better than others. Generally, there's less tolerance for diving in the Northern European leagues than in the Southern European and Latin American leagues. I haven't watched much MLS, so I'm not sure about the situation here. I've watched my local USL team, though, and haven't seen a whole lot of operatic diving, but maybe that's because most of the players are pretty young and haven't learned how to work the refs. (Or maybe the coach, who is English, frowns upon such shenanigans.)

It seems that a lot of the time, the ref will catch the obvious dives, but soccer has gotten so fast now that it's almost impossible to catch somebody diving if they do it correctly. For the viewer at home, it is usually painfully obvious on the slow motion replay. I just want there to be some system of accountability, so that players will have to keep the idea of being fined or carded after the game in the back of their mind. One of the reasons I tend to watch the EPL more than La Liga or Serie A is because diving seems to be done less(plus the game is more physical). What really bugs me is early in a game, you will see a player take contact while dribbling past someone, and they will fight hard to stay standing, showing the ref that they are "not trying to dive". Then, in the next half, you see them get brushed on the arm in the box, and flop around on the ground like a fish out of water to get the PK.

dnrta: what is a 'soccer'?

T.rex: dnrta: what is a 'soccer'?

It's highly intelligent, you won't understand it.

Why Hockey is So Much Better Than Football.

1. In hockey, you can have consecutive play for minutes on end - no interruptions. In football, you get 5-seconds of play followed by minutes of...nothing.

2a. Skaters skate faster than any football player can run. Hockey is therefore, by definition, FASTER than football.

2b. A 100+ mph puck versus a ball being thrown...which is faster here?

3. Hits are far more violent in hockey than in football.

4. Hockey players can decide to drop the gloves and fight bare-fisted. This is cool. This is VERY cool.

5. There are no ties in hockey. Ever.

6. Scoring is higher in hockey than football. If you disagree, go to a hockey database and translate every goal into 7-points.

7. A scoring opportunity - exciting in it's own right - can occur every few seconds in hockey. In football, scoring is often a long, wholly predicable plog down the field.

8. Sudden death overtime.

9. Back-to-back games on consecutive nights...builds rivalry. In football...17 weeks to play 16 games? Please.

10. Last, but not least...football is totally gay. Do you see where the QB puts his hands? And "tight ends"...seriously? Hockey is the complete opposite - truly the sport of hetero males.

You know what's also one of the great things about soccer?

I'll still be playing every week when I'm 40.

DaCaptain19: Why Hockey is So Much Better Than Football.

Please tell me that list was written by a 14 year old "hardcore gamer" after chugging two litres of mountain dew.

CaptMacMillian: You know what's also one of the great things about soccer?

I'll still be playing every week when I'm 40.

I've seen 70 year old men show up for hockey skate & shoot.

//And don't get me started on the golf course.

DaCaptain19: Why Hockey is So Much Better Than Football.

1. In hockey, you can have consecutive play for minutes on end - no interruptions. In football, you get 5-seconds of play followed by minutes of...nothing.

2a. Skaters skate faster than any football player can run. Hockey is therefore, by definition, FASTER than football.

2b. A 100+ mph puck versus a ball being thrown...which is faster here?

3. Hits are far more violent in hockey than in football.

4. Hockey players can decide to drop the gloves and fight bare-fisted. This is cool. This is VERY cool.

5. There are no ties in hockey. Ever.

6. Scoring is higher in hockey than football. If you disagree, go to a hockey database and translate every goal into 7-points.

7. A scoring opportunity - exciting in it's own right - can occur every few seconds in hockey. In football, scoring is often a long, wholly predicable plog down the field.

8. Sudden death overtime.

9. Back-to-back games on consecutive nights...builds rivalry. In football...17 weeks to play 16 games? Please.

10. Last, but not least...football is totally gay. Do you see where the QB puts his hands? And "tight ends"...seriously? Hockey is the complete opposite - truly the sport of hetero males.

Fail.


I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

DaCaptain19: Why Hockey is So Much Better Than Football.



Anyway, I've lived most of my life in parts of California and Texas where it hardly ever gets below freezing. Hockey is always going to seem somewhat foreign to me, like elephant polo or something like that.

TonnageVT: PS....The only football that matters come August.

And at this rate Real Madrid will also have signed Ribery, Alonso, Rooney, Lampard, the ghost of di Stefano, an F-22, Tesla's Death-ray and the rights to all players that have ever been born in Portugal or Brazil.

We used to have season tix for front row bleachers
right behind Bonds,
but you couldn't even heckle without being removed.

I'm also not a fan of watching 350lb felons sit in an oxygen tent.

And basketball isn't even a sport in my opinion.
Each team is winning a hundred points in a game?
I'd rather watch old footage of Mcenroe screaming at the umps.
At least that was interesting.

Soccer has everything...
good guys vs bad guys
acting
constant activity
nutty fans
national pride

and as much as I love hockey, the soccer refs get demolished waaaaay more.

Baseball came from England, and we seemed to accept it pretty well

I tried watching soccer recently (I think it was Italy and someone). I changed the channel after watching 5 dives in the span of 5 minutes where the guy didn't even come close to touching the other guy, yet he was writhing on the ground. Play stopped and they gave the ball to the other guys almost every time.

No thanks.