Ow! My grammar!

Wholly run-on and misspelled with seemingly endless stream of statistical and other adjectives sentence Batman!

haemaker: Wholly run-on and misspelled with seemingly endless stream of statistical and other adjectives sentence Batman!

Not a misspelling according to the Washington Natinals

Baseball should have let Mark Cuban buy the team. This has to be one of the most poorly run franchises in all of sports.

The manager then took the AAA outfielder and the pitcher with the 0-3 record and 7.71 ERA and said to them


"I just want to tell you both good luck, we're all counting on you."

Half the people commenting on this trade think the Pirates got a good deal. The other half think the Nationals got a good deal. Because of that, I think both teams hosed each other equally well.

Why the hell are the Natinals and the Pirates trading with each other?

Lost Thought 00: Why the hell are the Natinals and the Pirates trading with each other?

They're busy trying to outsuck one another.

Lost Thought 00: Why the hell are the Natinals and the Pirates trading with each other?

A signal to all other clubs that their rosters are up for grabs.

Hanrahan has a 3.56 FIP....

... and 6 wild pitches in 32 innings.

I don't know what to make of him. Milledge has maybe another year or two before he goes from "toolsy prospect" to "bust".

The Natina is the part of the eye behind the retina, right?

Nice word, tardmitter

Seriously, what the Pirates have done to their team and fans these past few years is egregious. Selig, if he had any balls, should revoke the franchise from those owners and find new, more suitable ownership.

\Pipe Dream

A lot of fail in this thread. The misspelling of Nationals was more than likely purposeful.

Kind of a meme

Hypothetically they could win today.

And in the years to come, hell, every MLB team wins about 1/3 of their games, minimum. So they should help out in maybe a couple of those.

Enrico Pallazzo: A lot of fail in this thread. The misspelling of Nationals was more than likely purposeful.

Sure, but the punctuation/capitalization is still horrendous.

Thesaurus Rex: Baseball should have let Mark Cuban buy the team. This has to be one of the most poorly run franchises in all of sports.

What, exactly, has Mark Cuban done with the franchises he does own?

The mispelling was an error on part of the jersey company majestic athletic.

They farked up the jerseys. (new window)

Hanrahan is better than Burnett (who is perpetually injured) and Nyjer Morgan is a 29 year old non-prospect who is nothing more than a fourth outfielder on a real team, while Milledge is 23 and has a chance to actually be a starting-caliber outfielder.

If Pirates fans are actually pissed about this trade, then they're as dumb as Bonifail and Littlefield were. You don't get pissed about trading a 29 year old fourth outfielder when it brings you better and younger talent back. Even if Milledge doesn't pan out, Morgan wasn't going to be a part of any theoretical good Pirates team a couple years down the road.

lefdeee: Thesaurus Rex: Baseball should have let Mark Cuban buy the team. This has to be one of the most poorly run franchises in all of sports.

What, exactly, has Mark Cuban done with the franchises he does own?

A hell of a lot more than the owners of the Pirates and Nationals have done.

Oh, where was this thread yesterday? Should I just copy & paste what I said in the "old players suck" thread?

Steal for the Pirates. Hanrahan is pitching BETTER than he did last season, but thanks to the Nats having the worst defense in the majors, he had a .451 BABIP. On the other hand, Burnett's BABIP is .218. You think that might go up, even if the Nats have Morgan?

I'd call Hanrahan for Morgan/Burnett a steal for the Pirates. Milledge is just icing on the cake.

Pirate players need to shut the hell up when complaining about player movement.
With Jason Bay and Nate McClouth they still lost.

GQueue: Hanrahan is better than Burnett (who is perpetually injured) and Nyjer Morgan is a 29 year old non-prospect who is nothing more than a fourth outfielder on a real team, while Milledge is 23 and has a chance to actually be a starting-caliber outfielder.

If Pirates fans are actually pissed about this trade, then they're as dumb as Bonifail and Littlefield were. You don't get pissed about trading a 29 year old fourth outfielder when it brings you better and younger talent back. Even if Milledge doesn't pan out, Morgan wasn't going to be a part of any theoretical good Pirates team a couple years down the road.

And this is why the nats fail. Why would you trade for a win now guy in nyjer morgan when you are 8 games behind the second worse team in baseball? What are they hoping for? They're going to end up dead last in the standings this year no matter what. They need a bullpen. Trading your closer who is in a little funk isn't going to help. They have a buttload of ourfielders anyway. I guess they think they're going to get a bunch of steals from this guy.

//create your own nyjer stealing jokes

lefdeee: Thesaurus Rex: Baseball should have let Mark Cuban buy the team. This has to be one of the most poorly run franchises in all of sports.

What, exactly, has Mark Cuban done with the franchises he does own?

Turned the Mavericks into a perpetual contender that can't quite get over the hump to win a championship? Plus he is actively out there proving that he cares about the product on the field? An unimaginale step up from the current PGH situation, in my opinion.

/Don't know if he owns some random soccer team.

GQueue: If Pirates fans are actually pissed about this trade, then they're as dumb as Bonifail and Littlefield were.

You see the brilliant reaction by Jack Wilson? Perfect example of why players aren't GMs.

Right, subby. Because Nyjer Morgan was going to be the centerpiece for the next contending Pirates team. Milledge is a schmuck who hasn't proved anything yet, but at least he has star upside in a dreamer's world.

Wagnerian Omnibus: Right, subby. Because Nyjer Morgan was going to be the centerpiece for the next contending Pirates team. Milledge is a schmuck who hasn't proved anything yet, but at least he has star upside in a dreamer's world. cheap, and will be traded back to a contender if he shows any promise in the future

FTFY

/bitter

Duke_Phillips: Wagnerian Omnibus: Right, subby. Because Nyjer Morgan was going to be the centerpiece for the next contending Pirates team.

Zuh? Really? A 29 year old rookie with a .700 OPS is a "centerpiece"? Has dumb GM rubbed off on the fans?

Or was that sarcasm?

Sarcasm.

Duke_Phillips: Wagnerian Omnibus: Right, subby. Because Nyjer Morgan was going to be the centerpiece for the next contending Pirates team.

Zuh? Really? A 29 year old rookie with a .700 OPS is a "centerpiece"? Has dumb GM rubbed off on the fans?

Or was that sarcasm?

The latter. I hope.

Nyjer's a nice spare part to have, and in fact he's had a start a lot for one of my fantasy teams because of his speed (18 SB isn't bad...his success rate is but whatever).

Don't the Nats already have a Slappy McSpeederson OF in Willie Harris?

Killer Cars: and in fact he's had a to start

I'm only owned in 3% of Yahoo Fantasy Grammar Leagues.

Duke_Phillips: Conversely the headline could have also read "29 year old rookie singles hitter called a 'cornerstone' by new GM". It's true, look it up

Milledge had a better season last year at 23 than Morgan is having this year as a 28-29 year old rookie. Milledge did this playing in one of the worst hitters parks in MLB while Morgan played in a park that's very friendly to lefties. Milledge led his team in home runs and RBIs last year, it was a crappy team yeah, but it's still a heck of a thing to do at 23.

The Pirates have made many many many dumb moves over the years. This isn't one of them.

Milledge only had a better season if you ignore fielding - he's mediocre in the corners and awful in center, while Morgan is a very good fielder.

I'm low on Milledge though probably because I've seen him bouncing around the NL East for the last 3 years and forget that he's only 24.

Killer Cars: Don't the Nats already have a Slappy McSpeederson OF in Willie Harris?

Morgan plays CF a lot better than Harris. Harris is slightly above average (2.5 UZR/150), Morgan is on pace for one of the greatest defensive seasons in history (11.9 UZR this season, with a 35 UZR/150 in 54 games). But Harris has been hitting better.

Duke_Phillips: you have pee hands: Hanrahan has a 3.56 FIP....


Okay, dumb question: is that good or bad? I've lost track of the baseball statistics since there are roughly a billion of them or so

FIP is "fielder independent pitching", using strikeout, walk, and home run rates to give a guesstimate of what the pitchers ERA would be with an average defense and an average distribution of balls in play. So it looks like ERA. 3.5 is a pretty good reliever; not elite but certainly well above average.

Duke_Phillips: you have pee hands: Hanrahan has a 3.56 FIP....


Okay, dumb question: is that good or bad? I've lost track of the baseball statistics since there are roughly a billion of them or so

Good. FIP is, essentially, what the players ERA would be with an average defense behind him. In Hanrahan played for the Cardinals (who are essentially average) he would probably have an ERA around 3.50. But he plays for the terrible defensive Nats (and he's had some bad luck) so his ERA is 7.71.

DeWayne Mann: Duke_Phillips: you have pee hands: Hanrahan has a 3.56 FIP....


Okay, dumb question: is that good or bad? I've lost track of the baseball statistics since there are roughly a billion of them or so

Good. FIP is, essentially, what the players ERA would be with an average defense behind him. In Hanrahan played for the Cardinals (who are essentially average) he would probably have an ERA around 3.50. But he plays for the terrible defensive Nats (and he's had some bad luck) so his ERA is 7.71.

Perhaps I'm wrong, I've watched about all the Nats games this year - but my recollection is Hanrahan has been giving up home runs to lose games at an amazing rate. Neither Millage nor Hanrahan was ever going to do anything again for the Nats so, they didn't lose anything and might have gained something.

Good trade for the Nats.

dhudd: Perhaps I'm wrong, I've watched about all the Nats games this year - but my recollection is Hanrahan has been giving up home runs to lose games at an amazing rate.

Hanrahan, HR/9, 2009: .83
Hanrahan, HR/9, 2008: .96

No more amazing than last year.

In fact, he's only let up three this year. All were in April, but two were in back to back games to tie it up. The other was just a terrible game for Hanrahan (walked a couple of guys, then let up a grandslam).

DeWayne Mann: dhudd: Perhaps I'm wrong, I've watched about all the Nats games this year - but my recollection is Hanrahan has been giving up home runs to lose games at an amazing rate.

Hanrahan, HR/9, 2009: .83
Hanrahan, HR/9, 2008: .96

No more amazing than last year.

In fact, he's only let up three this year. All were in April, but two were in back to back games to tie it up. The other was just a terrible game for Hanrahan (walked a couple of guys, then let up a grandslam).

Only three, seems like more. In any event, he's blown more saves than anyone else in the bigs (I bet) and he was never getting his confidence back in Washington. He's just been awful - as has the fielding. Milledge is a head case who isn't getting better either. We gave up nothing for a possible something (as Boswell said in his column).

dhudd: In any event, he's blown more saves than anyone else in the bigs (I bet)

Nope. Tied for third, with 5. Lidge & Cory Wade (???) have 6, and Heilman & Howell have 5 as well.

dhudd: We gave up nothing for a possible something (as Boswell said in his column).

Funny. That's how I would describe the trade for the Pirates.

DeWayne Mann: dhudd: In any event, he's blown more saves than anyone else in the bigs (I bet)

Nope. Tied for third, with 5. Lidge & Cory Wade (???) have 6, and Heilman & Howell have 5 as well.

dhudd: We gave up nothing for a possible something (as Boswell said in his column).

Funny. That's how I would describe the trade for the Pirates.

Those other guys, do they actually have some saves - I can't recall if Hanrahan has more than one. (Obviously Lidge does, and was unhitable until his arm went south.) A lefty pitcher with a 3.08 era is nothing?

dhudd: Those other guys, do they actually have some saves - I can't recall if Hanrahan has more than one. (Obviously Lidge does, and was unhitable until his arm went south.) A lefty pitcher with a 3.08 era is nothing?

Cory Wade & Heilman have 0 saves, because they're setup guys (and for some reason, a blown hold is a blown save). Lidge has 14 saves, Howell has 6, Hanrahan has 5.

And yeah, Burnett is nothing. Like I said: he has a .218 BABIP. That won't continue (especially since he's going to the Nats). Burnett has three major league seasons, here are their FIPS:

Sean Burnett, FIP, 2004: 5.06
Sean Burnett, FIP, 2008: 5.16
Sean Burnett, FIP, 2009: 4.50

For comparison, here are the FIPs of the other lefties the Nats already have:

Villone, FIP, 2008: 4.51
Villone, FIP, 2009: 4.41

Beimel, FIP, 2008: 3.30
Beimel, FIP, 2009: 4.48

Wil Ledezma, FIP, 2008: 4.47
Wil Ledezma, FIP, 2008: 4.63

You've already got three Sean Burnetts. Meanwhile, Hanrahan had the second lowest FIP of all Nats relievers, behind Jesus Colome (who, oddly enough, also has an ERA over 7). This trade made the bullpen worse, and bullpen was already the Nats weakest part.

DeWayne Mann: dhudd: Those other guys, do they actually have some saves - I can't recall if Hanrahan has more than one. (Obviously Lidge does, and was unhitable until his arm went south.) A lefty pitcher with a 3.08 era is nothing?

Cory Wade & Heilman have 0 saves, because they're setup guys (and for some reason, a blown hold is a blown save). Lidge has 14 saves, Howell has 6, Hanrahan has 5.

And yeah, Burnett is nothing. Like I said: he has a .218 BABIP. That won't continue (especially since he's going to the Nats). Burnett has three major league seasons, here are their FIPS:

Sean Burnett, FIP, 2004: 5.06
Sean Burnett, FIP, 2008: 5.16
Sean Burnett, FIP, 2009: 4.50

For comparison, here are the FIPs of the other lefties the Nats already have:

Villone, FIP, 2008: 4.51
Villone, FIP, 2009: 4.41

Beimel, FIP, 2008: 3.30
Beimel, FIP, 2009: 4.48

Wil Ledezma, FIP, 2008: 4.47
Wil Ledezma, FIP, 2008: 4.63

You've already got three Sean Burnetts. Meanwhile, Hanrahan had the second lowest FIP of all Nats relievers, behind Jesus Colome (who, oddly enough, also has an ERA over 7). This trade made the bullpen worse, and bullpen was already the Nats weakest part.

Is Hanrahan your brother or something? He's just been awful - virtually every time he's pitched. Walks the leadoff hitter all the time. That FIP - I don't think that means much if it suggesets Hanrahan is pitching anything close to ok. I'm reminded of the old adage "lies, damn lies and statistics."

dhudd: Is Hanrahan your brother or something? He's just been awful - virtually every time he's pitched. Walks the leadoff hitter all the time. That FIP - I don't think that means much if it suggesets Hanrahan is pitching anything close to ok. I'm reminded of the old adage "lies, damn lies and statistics."

Well, I've only seen Hanrahan pitch once (in the Red Sox series), so I'm not sure exactly what's been wrong with him (at least, in your opinion). But let me take a guess:

He throws close to the strike zone. Not always in it; in fact, he seems to have a lot of "just missed" balls. But he tends to be close. When he puts it in the strike zone & people swing, it tends to result in line drives into the gap, or straight down the line. When they make contact out of the strike zone, he gets ground balls that sneak through the infield. In fact, a lot of them don't even sneak through, but still go for infield hits. He tends to strike out one guy every time he comes in, and walks a guy every 3 games or so.

Sound about right? Because that's what the stats are telling me.

Assuming that's right: almost none of that is his fault. Pitcher have NO control over where batted balls go (with the possible exception of some HRs). Those line drives in the gap? Unlucky. Those ground balls (and especially the infield hits)? Poor defense.

He has a .451 BABIP. As a ground ball pitcher, we would expect a BABIP between .300 & .325. So he's letting up far more hits than we would expect...and there's absolutely no reason to expect that to continue.

Like I said in the thread yesterday, this is a knee-jerk reaction: "Oh no, he's letting up too many hits! We need to get rid of him!" Not a good way to run a team.

You guys are all idiots.

As someone who has covered the Nationals over the last few years on a few occasions, take it from me - this team (and the fans especially) are happy to see these two go.

Hanrahan was asked by Jim Palmer last week during the O's-Nats series, "What's your best pitch?" Hanrahan said he didn't know. That's a signal of a bad pitcher - if he doesn't know what the eff his own best pitch his, he doesn't know how to get people out and that's why instead he's been letting off hit after walk after hit this year.

Milledge showed up at spring training this year with this "Oh, I'm a veteran now" attitude, which put Manny and the majority of the team off. When I've talked to him, he's always come off as kind of a smug jerk, to put it nicely. He couldn't put the bat on the ball at the beginning of the season and was sent down to AAA because of it, with little chance of returning - and NO chance after he broke his hand. Now that he's almost back, I wonder whether or not he's going to be timid at the plate because of his hand issues.

The Nats have been looking for a real center fielder (and as much as I like Willie Harris, he isn't one), and Nyjer Morgan can be that. Hopefully Burnett will bring some stability to the bullpen, but I'll hold judgment on that one.

/stats never tell the whole story
//anyone with real baseball knowledge can tell you that much
///go Nats

Oh, and, something I just noticed:

Jonathan Papelbon, FIP, 2009: 4.25
Joel Hanrahan, FIP, 2009: 3.56

I'll withhold any further analysis of this point.

Kaiserin: this team (and the fans especially) are happy to see these two go.

So? Does that make it a good trade? How will the team be better now that the handful of fans left are happy?

Kaiserin: hit after walk after hit this year.

And, as mentioned before, pitchers have no control over hits. Maybe that fact (combined with the team's TERRIBLE defense) is a bit more responsible for all the hits? Not to mention, he's basically walking people at roughly an average rate.

Kaiserin: /stats never tell the whole story
//anyone with real baseball knowledge can tell you that much

Sure, they only tell you about 90% of the whole story.

Nothing anyone can say will convince me that Hanrahan is presently a major league pitcher; and I don't think he ever will be again. His confidence is shot.

IAmRight: Hypothetically they could win today.

And in the years to come, hell, every MLB team wins about 1/3 of their games, minimum. So they should help out in maybe a couple of those.

Enrico Pallazzo: A lot of fail in this thread. The misspelling of Nationals was more than likely purposeful.

Sure, but the punctuation/capitalization is still horrendous.

YouAreRight

dhudd: Nothing anyone can say will convince me that Hanrahan is presently a major league pitcher; and I don't think he ever will be again. His confidence is shot.

Lets agree to have this conversation again at the end of the season, ok?

*sigh* Just last year they had one of the best hitting outfields in the majors... Howzabout keeping SOMEONE to see if they pan out?

/Buccos fan
//Why? I have no idea.

DeWayne Mann: Kaiserin: this team (and the fans especially) are happy to see these two go.

So? Does that make it a good trade? How will the team be better now that the handful of fans left are happy?

Kaiserin: hit after walk after hit this year.

And, as mentioned before, pitchers have no control over hits. Maybe that fact (combined with the team's TERRIBLE defense) is a bit more responsible for all the hits? Not to mention, he's basically walking people at roughly an average rate.


Better jive in the clubhouse may equal better confidence and better performance on field. I'd say it's a good trade because neither Hanrahan nor Milledge did much for this team, and the two Bucs could. But hey, opinions.

And though pitchers don't have control over hits, they have control over their pitching. Which Hanrahan seems to lack (as evidenced by his own "lol dunno best pitch sry" comment). Good pitchers are good because they know how to get movement on their pitches and where to place the ball and what pitch to use in a certain situation. Bad pitchers are bad, because, well, they don't know any of that. Hanrahan hasn't had a clue all season.

Both teams are just moving deck chairs around on the Titanic.

Kaiserin: Better jive in the clubhouse may equal better confidence and better performance on field.

Except it never quite works out that way. Chemistry is not a substitute for talent.

It's been mentioned before, but chemistry is important in actual team sports like football & basketball. But baseball is a fake team sport. In football, if Tony Romo likes Jason Witten more than TO, then he might just throw to Witten more often.

But in baseball, if Christian Guzman likes Josh Bard more than he likes Nick Johnson, he's not going to throw the ball to the catcher on a routine groundout. So it's really hard to see where, exactly, chemistry leads to better performance.

More often than not, chemistry is an effect of winning, not a cause. Win a lot of games and you have a lot of chemistry. Lose a lot of games, and all the players start blaming each other and getting pissed off. Which sounds more like the Nats?

Kaiserin: And though pitchers don't have control over hits, they have control over their pitching.

And Hanrahan's pitching has been pretty good. He has a 9.64 K/9, good for second on the team. I'm not sure how you can pull that off without knowing how to pitch. And, since that is second on the team, does that mean no one else on the team knows how to pitch either? Keep in mind, Hanrahan is also 4th on the team in K/BB.

And is it possible that he's not sure which pitch is best, because they're all about equal?