DarnoKonrad: They should have used the rule of law. This was nothing but coup.

Read the constitution.

They did use the rule of law.

The president broke the rule of law by trying to have the referendum, and he broke it again when he dismissed the head of the military who wouldn't follow his unlawful order.


As I said above simply because he is the presidnet and democratically elected doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants. What we saw was checks and balances playing out in a democratic govt. Just because you have a hard on for this Chavez want-to-be and it was the military who removed him doesn't make it un-lawful, or undemocratic.

liam76: Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution

Article 42 opens the possibility that one may lose Honduran citizenship if he tries to support or promote re-election of the President, and Article 374 makes it illegal to reform the position of President, term limit and re-election.

Tatsuma: the pro-Democracy forces in Honduras have already won...shiatting on the constitution and installing a dictator militarily elected president is not Democracy.



I mistook that for suport of teh ousted president, sorry Tats

Lol.

Is this the XXXXXVVVICCCCC thread or wut?

StochasticLife: Joe Blowme: And Obama remains silent... yet very vocal about the supreme court of another country removing a law breaking president. Clueless

Why can't people understand that the best thing we can do, officially, is STFU.

You think him saying anything is actually going to do ANY GOOD?


Makes you wonder why he very vocal about another country that got rid of a dictator wannabe.

liam76: They did use the rule of law.

Which is why it's universally condemned as a subversion of the rule of law?

Fark Authoritarians and their new-speak. Coup is rule of law.

You guys are real winners.

Tatsuma. In every single Muslim/Middle Eastern related topic.

Hmm suspicious.

Ok can we leave the Honduras discussion alone and go back to Iran please?

Kyoki: Not to threadjack, but to all the folks who cry that having a firearm doesn't help against tanks in the gun threads, I'd bet a lot of those poor Iranians wish that they had our level of access to weapons.

I have always been fine with access to some weapons here in the US - what we have now is really ok with me, give or take a little either way. That said, the right to bear (small) arms doesn't matter in the context of revolution anymore. The problem is that had the protesters gone all wolverines on the Basij, the army probably would not have been able to remain neutral. With running gun battles in the streets, commanders (and private soldiers) would have felt a lot more justified and moral about firing on them.

Of course, without guns they were pretty much impotent to do any serious escalation anyway.

What interests me is that if there really were millions of people protesting just in Tehran, are they really going to sit down and shut up now that the government is really cracking down and not giving any concessions at all?

DarnoKonrad: Which is why it's universally condemned as a subversion of the rule of law?

Fark Authoritarians and their new-speak. Coup is rule of law.

You guys are real winners.

So if Bush came out in direct contradiction of the constitution and declared martial law after McCain lost, said he was going to keep the presidency, told the military to enforce his will, and then fired the head Joint Chiefs of Staff when he wouldn't listen to him. Would you call it a coup if the military listened to congress, and the supreme court and kicked the president out?

DarnoKonrad: liam76: They did use the rule of law.

Which is why it's universally condemned as a subversion of the rule of law?

Fark Authoritarians and their new-speak. Coup is rule of law.

You guys are real winners.


Coups usually overthrow a government and install some form of dictatorship. In this case, their Supreme Court, their Congress including the ousted President's party and the military all deemed his planned ballot illegal. Nothing else has changed except for the President that was trying to allow himself to be elected for more terms than allowed.

The "Tree of Liberty" letter
From Thomas Jefferson to William Smith
Paris, November 13, 1787

"...What country before ever existed a century & a half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure."


So who's gonna step up and be the Persian Jefferson? Also, what's the FedEx rate for AK47's from the US to Iran?

liam76: DarnoKonrad: Which is why it's universally condemned as a subversion of the rule of law?

Fark Authoritarians and their new-speak. Coup is rule of law.

You guys are real winners.

So if Bush came out in direct contradiction of the constitution and declared martial law after McCain lost, said he was going to keep the presidency, told the military to enforce his will, and then fired the head Joint Chiefs of Staff when he wouldn't listen to him. Would you call it a coup if the military listened to congress, and the supreme court and kicked the president out?

To hell with your bizarre analogies. The day congress impotently lets the military do its dirty work is the day I get the hell out of this country. You farkers are scary. Batshiat insane.

Brooking Institution scholar and former Costa Rican minister of planning Kevin Casas Zamora, no fan of Zelaya, came to this conclusion in a piece for FP yesterday: (new window)

An illegal referendum has met an illegal military intervention, with the avowed intention of protecting the Constitution. Zelaya's civilian opponents, meanwhile, are celebrating. For the past week, the Honduran Congress has waxed lyrical about the armed forces as the guarantors of the Constitution, a disturbing notion for Latin Americans. At the very least, we are witnessing in Honduras the return of the unfortunate role of the military as the ultimate referee in political conflicts among civilian leaders, a huge step back in the region's consolidation of democracy.

That's why Zelaya, though he bears by far the greater responsibility for this crisis, must be reinstated in his position as the legitimate president of Honduras. The Organization of American States, the neighboring countries, and the U.S. government (which is still enormously influential in Honduras) should demand no less. They should also call upon all political actors in Honduras to take a deep breath and do what mature democracies do: allow the law to deal with those who try to step outside it. If Zelaya must be prosecuted for his harebrained attempt to subvert the Honduran Constitution, then let the courts proceed as rigorously as possible. And the same applies to the coup perpetrators. If Honduras is to have a decent future, its politicians and soldiers, in equal measure, must learn that the road to democracy and development runs through the rule of law.

This was the inevitable conclusion to this mess.

Jesus farking Christ.

Another major victory for the Obama Administration.

StochasticLife [TotalFark] Quote 2009-07-01 09:03:37 AM
Joe Blowme: And Obama remains silent... yet very vocal about the supreme court of another country removing a law breaking president. Clueless

Why can't people understand that the best thing we can do, officially, is STFU.

mamoru: Tatsuma: 30th of June

Thanks for the update. Also, for some companion reading, Green Brief #14 (30 June) (^) is also up.

somedude210: any word from PK?

No, not yet. Just the semi-but-not-completely confirmed reports that PK is not under arrest, but merely offline and unable to get back online.

No noose is good noose, right?

atlanta_ufo: Coups usually overthrow a government and install some form of dictatorship. In this case, their Supreme Court, their Congress including the ousted President's party and the military all deemed his planned ballot illegal. Nothing else has changed except for the President that was trying to allow himself to be elected for more terms than allowed.

The rule of law demands due process. The opposite to the rule of law is to say the ends justify the means.

He should be reinstated and congress should do it's job by impeaching his ass if they want to get rid of him.

Both Ceaser and Napoleon did what they did with support from politicians and claimed to be champions of the republic.

If you want to live in a Democracy, you don't make the military a tool of arbitration. It's an incredibly bad precedent.

Tatsuma: According to Ahmadinejad, the following countries have recognized him: India, Tunisia, Malaysia, Lebanon, North Korea, Kuwait, Nicaragua, Comoros, Cambodia, , Senegal, Cuba, Belarus, Sudan, Syria, Libya, Algeria, Turkmenistan, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Indonesia, Bahrain, Yemen, Sri Lanka, Ecuador, Russia, Azerbaijan, Qatar, Tajikistan, Armenia, Oman, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan, China and Venezuela

Wow, he has all the winners on his side.

/throws up

idiomagic: This is a terrible thing for the people, but, in the long run, good news for the revolution as a whole.

Khameni has made serious missteps in this by not maintaining his public neutrality. A-jad has made the huge mistake of endorsing the brutality and in so blatantly rigging the election.

Each new act of brutality and repression further calls into question the legitimacy of not just the leaders but the system and the regime as a whole.

K and A still don't seem to realize that they have crossed the line, that they can never recover from their blunders. It may take months or even years, but they are doomed and so is the whole Islamic system of government in Iran.

I still find it hard to understand how they could have made so many idiotic moves...everything they do or say simply adds new recruits to the protesters and their cause.

I agree. These acts don't go unnoticed in Iran. The more they show their contempt of the people and even some of the respected clerics, the sooner the end of the Islamic "Republic" will arrive.

Malachesque:

No apologies necessary; it's not your fault you were given the wrong info, and many of us here appreciate all the extra legwork you've done re: Red Cross/Red Crescent donations. I suspect the RC/RC probably did intend to funnel donation money/med. supplies to Iran until they found out about human rights abuses currently going on in Iranian hospitals (i.e. Basij diverting ambulances to detention centers, Basij abducting people out of hospital beds, etc.) At this point, funding more ambulances just enables more thugs to abuse people.

As for those people claiming "it's over" for the Iranian public, use your heads. The elections were June 12, it's less than 3 weeks later, and you're already calling the game? Gimme a break! Crack open a history book & read about the 1979 revolution (here's a hint: it wasn't over in 3 weeks...) In fact, be prepared for a long & bloody civil war if the asshats in charge refuse to see reason. Their absolute power will corrupt absolutely if they keep it up.

I realise this has now become the Great Honduran Thread, but I'll still post this gem here:

Witness to Neda's Death to be Prosecuted (new window)

Yay? He's lucky to have left the country.

The thing that I wonder is if the Iranian youth are going to treat the world and the US like the Iraqis did post Gulf War 1 - IE we said "fight the good fight, we are here to help you" they fought we didn't help them, Saddam killed them and made the survivors bitter towards us. I am worried that while we didn't say out right "Rise Up" they will be incredibly bitter. They know this is their fight, I just hope that they are busy learning how to become insurgents from their Iraqi brothers right now and we will shortly see fireworks....

wolvernova: Wow, he has all the winners on his side.

Indeed.

wolvernova: Jesus farking Christ.

Pretty much my reaction, yes

ossaFK: Its too bad people in the US don't protest like this against the oppression here. Tens of thousands of innocent people are in our OWN prisons, because of nonsensical "forensic" evidence and prosecutors who just want another conviction under their belt to put on their resumes.

You want to compare civil rights in the U.S. to that in Iran? Fark you. Those people are actively fighting real oppression. Hope you grow out of your hippie phase, dipshiat.

Mongo cut wood: Another major victory for the Obama Administration.

StochasticLife [TotalFark] Quote 2009-07-01 09:03:37 AM
Joe Blowme: And Obama remains silent... yet very vocal about the supreme court of another country removing a law breaking president. Clueless

Why can't people understand that the best thing we can do, officially, is STFU.

I suggest you learn a little of American history regarding Iranian relations, and understanding that with the current rhetoric in Iran why our intervention would only be a temporary fix, if it fixes anything at all. You, sir, your cranium firmly planted in your colon.

Delores De Syn: become the Great Honduran Thread

People who want to make it about Honduras, we already have a thread there, so please keep it confined there.

People are being hanged in Iran, I think this deserves a discussion.

DarnoKonrad:
To hell with your bizarre analogies. The day congress impotently lets the military do its dirty work is the day I get the hell out of this country. You farkers are scary. Batshiat insane.

Brooking Institution scholar and former Costa Rican minister of planning Kevin Casas Zamora, no fan of Zelaya, came to this conclusion in a piece for FP yesterday: (new window)

An illegal referendum has met an illegal military intervention, with the avowed intention of protecting the Constitution. Zelaya's civilian opponents, meanwhile, are celebrating. For the past week, the Honduran Congress has waxed lyrical about the armed forces as the guarantors of the Constitution, a disturbing notion for Latin Americans. At the very least, we are witnessing in Honduras the return of the unfortunate role of the military as the ultimate referee in political conflicts among civilian leaders, a huge step back in the region's consolidation of democracy.

That's why Zelaya, though he bears by far the greater responsibility for this crisis, must be reinstated in his position as the legitimate president of Honduras. The Organization of American States, the neighboring countries, and the U.S. government (which is still enormously influential in Honduras) should demand no less. They should also call upon all political actors in Honduras to take a deep breath and do what mature democracies do: allow the law to deal with those who try to step outside it. If Zelaya must be prosecuted for his harebrained attempt to subvert the Honduran Constitution, then let the courts proceed as rigorously as possible. And the same applies to the coup perpetrators. If Honduras is to have a decent future, its politicians and soldiers, in equal measure, must learn that the road to democracy and development runs through the rule of law.

If the military were the referees they would be making the calls.

They aren't.

They are following the orders of the supreme court.

Even if we are going to pretend that the Supreme Court didn't order this before hand, the Congress voted unanimously to remove the presidnet.

What would be the point of returning him there if the Supreme court and the congress has said his removal was lawful? Who decides what is lawful in a country? I would think the elected legislators and appointed (or maybe elected) Judges in that country would be better at interpreting their laws than people ont heoutside.

have* your cranium, even

Thanks, Obama!

wolvernova: You want to compare civil rights in the U.S. to that in Iran? Fark you. Those people are actively fighting real oppression. Hope you grow out of your hippie phase, dipshiat.

No way man, like, you know, people busted for smoking a bit of mary j are all like, totally in the same situation as like, people getting killed because they want their votes counted and shiat. It's the same, man! Also, like DNA? Whatever man, whats that supposed to prove exactly? You believe that, like, its a good science because thats like what they say on tv and shiat.

Sheeple.

bookman: Thanks, Obama!

While people who want to discuss Honduras can go to the appropriate thread and people who truly blame can go to Free Republic, trolls can go fark themselves.

fark aminedejad, fark him right in his ear

/4.0
/yardale

DarnoKonrad: atlanta_ufo: Coups usually overthrow a government and install some form of dictatorship. In this case, their Supreme Court, their Congress including the ousted President's party and the military all deemed his planned ballot illegal. Nothing else has changed except for the President that was trying to allow himself to be elected for more terms than allowed.

The rule of law demands due process. The opposite to the rule of law is to say the ends justify the means.

He should be reinstated and congress should do it's job by impeaching his ass if they want to get rid of him.

Both Ceaser and Napoleon did what they did with support from politicians and claimed to be champions of the republic.

If you want to live in a Democracy, you don't make the military a tool of arbitration. It's an incredibly bad precedent.


It looks like time was of the essence. The Honduran Supreme Court has said the military was acting on their orders when he was arrested, I believe, only hours before he planned to hold an unofficial vote to determine support for him to change Honduran law and run for re-election. After the event, the elected Honduran Congress gave the military a standing ovation. Looks like Zelaya was pissing everyone off, they removed him and flew him to the country of his choice. Things don't work in other countries like the U.S., so hard to judge them totally on how we would do an impeachment.

Honduras be hanged, this is an Iran thread!


Any reliable confirmation of hangings?

An anonymous phone call to one of the most anti-Iranian newspapers in the world, making a completely unsubstantiated and very unlikely claim, and ALL of you believe it without a single question? WTF is wrong with you Farkers? I'm not saying it's impossible - the Iranian government is crazy enough to do anything. But as of now, this claim looks very fishy. What's much, much more likely is that it was simply a discontented Mousavi supporter spreading misinformation.

orsonwagon: It's like they're part of some kind of axis of evil or something.

I thought he said they were part of the Axle of Eva. What is that some new kind of hybrid vehicle?

I've been reading these threads since this start, and the boasting snarks saying "Ha, see I told you Twitter wouldn't topple the revolution," are really missing out on what Twitter was actually doing, in the historic context of revolutions and the ever expanding global awareness facilitated by the internet. Without Twitter, the only information coming out of Iran would be what the Iranian government would be releasing. Yes, of course there was a lot of misinformation, but there were also many up to the hour updates that appear to have been accurate representations of what was happening in a country otherwise closed off to the world. Did I or anyone else ever expect Twitter alone to topple a regime? No. No one did, but it was instrumental in keeping the world informed which is an important aspect of any oppressed group; having their voices heard by others other than their oppressors. It was the kind of dissemination that has never been seen before in the context of international affairs, and that's pretty important; a modern day grass roots. 10 years ago this wouldn't have likely been possible.

And, if as you say, it was completely inconsequential, why is it then that Iran is forming an "online espionage" task force?

Ugh. This is, like, so hard to follow. Big words and stuff. Can we talk about whether MJ's kids were really his kids? Guys?

Or maybe the situation in Iran? Earlier on, someone pointed out that the hangings were reported by an Israeli paper, but even if that was only propaganda - although I doubt it - and no one has been executed yet, they're bound to start soon. At least then they can pretend they're doing the right thing, having tried and all.

Ugh. What's with the new 2nd Amendment retard spin on Iran?

When have these protesters indicated they want a civil war?

sorry, the "revolution" is over. the mass media has officially declared it a failure.

you can thank Michael Jackson for pushing out the important iran stories.

sucks for all those people who actually thought they were making a difference.

HotWingConspiracy: Ugh. What's with the new 2nd Amendment retard spin on Iran?

When have these protesters indicated they want a civil war?

Well, to a point I understand it as a reminder that it isn't good when only a single group is allowed to arm themselves. I don't think many Americans want the guns only in the hands of the government, though, so I do think it's a bit of an alarmist reaction. All the same, a good reminder why it's a bad idea.

Delores De Syn: having tried and all.

Having tried them.

Now, this may have been mentioned elsewhere (via IB and Pitney), but the Iranian voters really like to keep their sheets in good condition. Link (new window)

spartywrx: Also, what's the FedEx rate for AK47's from the US to Iran?

Probably 10 years for aiding a terrorist state...

gulogulo: I've been reading these threads since this start, and the boasting snarks saying "Ha, see I told you Twitter wouldn't topple the revolution," are really missing out on what Twitter was actually doing, in the historic context of revolutions and the ever expanding global awareness facilitated by the internet. Without Twitter, the only information coming out of Iran would be what the Iranian government would be releasing. Yes, of course there was a lot of misinformation, but there were also many up to the hour updates that appear to have been accurate representations of what was happening in a country otherwise closed off to the world. Did I or anyone else ever expect Twitter alone to topple a regime? No. No one did, but it was instrumental in keeping the world informed which is an important aspect of any oppressed group; having their voices heard by others other than their oppressors. It was the kind of dissemination that has never been seen before in the context of international affairs, and that's pretty important; a modern day grass roots. 10 years ago this wouldn't have likely been possible.

And, if as you say, it was completely inconsequential, why is it then that Iran is forming an "online espionage" task force?


Great post. Twitter got the word out, but the outside world appeared helpless to do anything.

cyberfr0g: sorry, the "revolution" is over. the mass media has officially declared it a failure.

you can thank Michael Jackson for pushing out the important iran stories.

sucks for all those people who actually thought they were making a difference.

Ahh, the Fark cynic. Who will jump in tell you that you were wrong while all the long he knew better.

I think the revolution has been suppressed, but I think it is really naive to think it's over. It'll go quiet, maybe even sleep for a year or two, maybe more, but for the people who were harmed the feeling of resentment isn't going to go away. When it does resurface (and it will eventually) it'll be the same revolution as before, the issues being contested. Why do you think China restricted the media coverage out of Iran? Because all their revolutionaries have gone away and perfectly contented citizens now?

/sad

isn't more of Iran's style to hang these people in public? You don't get much for hanging them in private except a spare prison cell.

Anyone shutter at the thought that GWB was right? Iran really *is* an axis of evil.

atlanta_ufo: Great post. Twitter got the word out, but the outside world appeared helpless to do anything.

As is generally the case. The post you quoted was right, Twitter got the information out, and that information has had a ripple effect all across the Middle East. Democratic activists all over have seen the Iranians stand up for their rights and are now wondering "Why not us?"

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31559156/ns/world_news-washington_post/

The revolution is not over, it has only begun, it just doesn't operate on our Commercial Break ADD time line. It will be a year or two before things really heat up - not to mention, what will happen next election eh? Will there even be one now that Khomenei has seen what happens? Would he risk it again? Will he attempt to throw away the Republican facade and just make it a dictatorship?

Still lots of things to happen so just be patient :)