Secret Master of All Flatulence: Shush. The American Messiah will simply miracle the Iranian government away, just as Obaba's wishful thinking has resulted to the immediate end to Iranian aspirations to be a nuclear power.

"Change we can believe in" = "Surrender to our enemies".

wut?

Secret Master of All Flatulence: "Change we can believe in" = "Surrender to our enemies".

Absolutely. You should have elected McCain. This Iran issue would have been resolved a lot more quickly and for the better of everyone involved with McCain at the helm.

mamoru: Why would they?

Not saying China would have any reason, merely saying we are utterly without option as countries such as China and Russia are willing to support this.

PacManDreaming: idiomagic: It may take months or even years, but they are doomed and so is the whole Islamic system of government in Iran.


THIS.

Tantamount to saying that the whole Judaism/Catholicism system of government is doomed.

It is sad how uneducated most of the population is regarding religion, tribalism and nationalism.

SupremeLeader: We would have BOMBED, BOMBED, BOMBED IRAN!

You said BOMBED three times.

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Cybernetic: Removing such a regime through peaceful means is a dubious prospect at best.


Shush. The American Messiah will simply miracle the Iranian government away, just as Obaba's wishful thinking has resulted to the immediate end to Iranian aspirations to be a nuclear power.

"Change we can believe in" = "Surrender to our enemies".

/Yes we did
//WTF were we thinking???



Yes, because it is America's responsibility and within their ability to govern the world. Isn't that what got you into the present "sticky" situations to begin with? How's that working for you?

Jeesh you are a clunker.

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Iranians are killing each other. Is that really a problem?

Are you trying to be an asshole, or can you not help it?

..b..bu..but I thought Twitter, Tatsuma and the little green box on the Fark logo had created an unstoppable movement. A force who by their posting of disparaging comments on a daily basis and recycling material from other sources had liberated Iran and had created a watershed moment. A moment that would be henceforth be regarded as a turning-point in the modern democratic process and signal a new era where indignant nerds are able to topple foreign governments through frantic Twittering.

Oh wait. Michael Jackson died.

Cormee:
Oh wait. Michael Jackson died.

Something about statistics versus tragedies.

Cormee: *snip*

You're just an anti-Semite.

Fireproof: More importantly, the youth overwhelmingly support the opposition, and the regime supporters aren't getting any younger. Those who are for reform will continue to grow in numbers and those who are against it will continue to die off.

Is it too much to say that reform is inevitable?

Most every major revolution in the past 300 years (including the US and France) was preceded by a bulge in the young population. The median age in Iran is right around 27.

To answer your question: no, I don't think it's too much to say that reform is inevitable.

the_chief: I searched the internet, but I can't find directions on how to become a secret Muslim.

I think all you have to do is say that there is only one god, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet...then don't tell anyone you ever said that.

...and, you didn't hear that from me

Are you people really so short-sighted that if something doesn't happen within a day or a week or two, then you think it will never happen?

Good thing people like you weren't the types leading the American revolution. You'd still be subjects of England.

:-/

mamoru: No, not yet. Just the semi-but-not-completely confirmed reports that PK is not under arrest, but merely offline and unable to get back online.

I was looking at the tweetgrid about an hour ago, there was something from OG saying that PK was fine and would be back at some point. This was from several hours ago.

It's like they're part of some kind of axis of evil or something.

cloud_van_dame: I was looking at the tweetgrid about an hour ago, there was something from OG saying that PK was fine and would be back at some point. This was from several hours ago.

Yeah, OG and Nite Owl were my primary sources of that information.

Fireproof: I've kind of been thinking about how there has been student unrest every few years, and how each wave has been bigger than the last. More importantly, the youth overwhelmingly support the opposition, and the regime supporters aren't getting any younger. Those who are for reform will continue to grow in numbers and those who are against it will continue to die off.

Is it too much to say that reform is inevitable?

America, as the Boomers die.

/Shaka, when the walls fell?

The truth is the people just don't have the muscle to fight back. The only option at this point is a civil war and unless a significant portion of the army is willing to back the people or a connected cleric can open up the borders for weapons to be smuggled in, the regime will continue on, albeit severely weakened at a crucial time where it needs to show leadership in order to cement its power among the other Shia nations in order to challenge the Sunni countries surrounding it.

in the end, the US wins. Up until the election, Iran was poised to become the next great leader of the middle east with the support of its "shia crescent" formed with Iraq (now shia dominated with Maliki cozying up to Ajad/Khamenei), Syria and hezbollah in Lebanon.

Now they are showing too much weakness which may make these states question that alliance and keep the balance of power where it is which Saudi Arabia/the US will appreciate.

The people however lose out on all sides.

Cormee: ..b..bu..but I thought Twitter, Tatsuma and the little green box on the Fark logo had created an unstoppable movement. A force who by their posting of disparaging comments on a daily basis and recycling material from other sources had liberated Iran and had created a watershed moment. A moment that would be henceforth be regarded as a turning-point in the modern democratic process and signal a new era where indignant nerds are able to topple foreign governments through frantic Twittering.

Oh wait. Michael Jackson died.

Yes, I also thought that was more than just a coincidence...

Will someone explain the article to me.

I can't figure out how this has anything to do with Michel Jackson's death.

Occam's Chainsaw: America, as the Boomers die.

/Shaka, when the walls fell?

If population projections are accurate, we'll have a labor shortage eventually which may mean different immigration policy, that sort of thing.

/finishing up The Next 100 Years
//hello Mr. Chainsaw :)

The iranian police chief now claims that Neda Sultan's death was staged.

The only surprising thing about this for me is that they didn't blame the jews for this yet.

I guess I have as much faith in this story from the Jerusalem Post as I would in a Chinese newspaper story about Taiwanese government brutality.

Just saying. Not denying it. Devil's Advocate.

Ashnar: Will someone explain the article to me.

I can't figure out how this has anything to do with Michel Jackson's death.

Michael Jackson is the one whose death merited a moment of silence in Congress.

CayceP: If population projections are accurate, we'll have a labor shortage eventually which may mean different immigration policy, that sort of thing.

/finishing up The Next 100 Years
//hello Mr. Chainsaw :)

We already have a population glut. We might have a skilled labor shortage, but we'll have no shortage of laborers.

/Hey yourself! *hugs*

Cormee: ..b..bu..but I thought Twitter, Tatsuma and the little green box on the Fark logo had created an unstoppable movement. A force who by their posting of disparaging comments on a daily basis and recycling material from other sources had liberated Iran and had created a watershed moment. A moment that would be henceforth be regarded as a turning-point in the modern democratic process and signal a new era where indignant nerds are able to topple foreign governments through frantic Twittering.

Oh wait. Michael Jackson died.

We've already liberated Iran with our Twitting and reposting awesomeness. You just keep getting sent back in time to the same day before we achieved it, so you're forgiven for your ignorance.

I find it frightening that if you give a minority of a population special status, they'll happily oppress the majority using whatever means necessary.

It seems the natural state of governing if things are left to evolve on their own is something more akin to what exists in Iran than what exists here. Only by constant effort to oppose the despotic elements that exist can we hope to maintain a free and fair society.

TappingTheVein: The iranian police chief now claims that Neda Sultan's death was staged.

The only surprising thing about this for me is that they didn't blame the jews for this yet.

Thus far I have heard them say:

- It was staged.

- It was an accident by either the police or Basij (surprisingly half-honest for this regime)

- She was killed by a CIA sniper, conveniently out of site and not captured or seen by anyone's camera, I suppose.

- And yes, that it was Israel's doing somehow.

/I guess they haven't learned to go with one story and stick to it as far as this incident is concerned

ossaFK: end drunk rant

I think the odds are a lot less on me being thrown in jail for the rest of my life on a trumped up arson charge in the US then getting the crapped kicked outta me and jailed in Iran for calling shenanigans on an election. But then again, I did say there would be no math.

Also, the Revolution isn't over by a long shot. It just stopped being super flashy.

/But we do really have some shiatty forensic people here.
//And at an alarming rate, shiatty "professionals" everywhere else.
///But slashy is always classy

TappingTheVein: The iranian police chief now claims that Neda Sultan's death was staged.

What I bet will happen is they'll take one of the protesters, torture him into a confession that he killed Neda on the orders of the US or Britain in order to try to cause a uprising, then they'll hang that person immediately so there can't be any recanting of that confession.

Cybernetic:

I hope you're right, but I'm afraid that you are not. The regime appears willing to kill whatever number of its own citizens that is required in order to maintain its power. Remember these are the same lunatics who sent unarmed child "soldiers" to clear minefields during the Iran/Iraq War. To them, life is cheap, and the life of an enemy cheaper still. Removing such a regime through peaceful means is a dubious prospect at best.

Toppling the regime is going to require a significant armed faction (such as the army) to very publicly throw in with Moussavi and fight a civil war. And do it soon, or the people who need their help will all be dead.

Would you have given up at Concord or Lexington? Every revolution has a beginning.

This will eventually become a violent revolution. The Iranian government crackdown almost insures it. There will be a point where the people, not just individuals, but all the people are NOT going to be afraid to die. As it is there are individuals and groups who are willing to die...but until this hits the mainstream, it's going to be hard going.

It is in the hands of the Iranian people, where it has been all along. Every time the US has interfered, it has gone badly, very badly.

This isn't over yet, remember the mourning cycle... 3 days, 7 days, 40 days. On July 30th (40 days from Neda's death), I would expect some big protests. The Revolution which took down the Shah took a year. Westerners are just too impatient.

Benjamin the Rogue:
We've already liberated Iran with our Twitting and reposting awesomeness. You just keep getting sent back in time to the same day before we achieved it, so you're forgiven for your ignorance.

I challenge the power of the Indignant Farkers' Twitter Alliance to raise Michael from the dead. Tweet him from the grave. Make it so.

Hey, I'm reposting my "Introduction to the Revolution" Pamphlet here. Feel free to copy and paste the html version of it around.

I was going for something that can be shown to someone who doesn't know what the hell is going on at all. I've been getting too many people who just biatch TL:DR when I drop Tat sized posts on their heads. So instead of bludgeoning them to death with Mossad intelligence reports, I made this.

Feel free to give me some pointers or new links if you can think of any to include. It still seems plenty unrefined in my opinion.



There's a battle that's spilled over onto the internet, and there are some very real casualties resulting from it. Here's what you can do; just learn what is happening, and let others know.

Here's some links to videos or other sites containing information concerning Iran. The top two videos illustrate what is happening in Iran., followed by some video and images of the protester's struggle. There are also links that are the declaration of support for the Iranian people by the group known as Anonymous, and their intent to join the war against the government of Iran. A link to their Internet War HQ is also included. Several other links that document the events are also posted. At the bottom are links to the last two days of protests, to show they have not been beaten. The people of Iran will not be denied their voice!

With the club or truncheon the government of Iran tries to implement its power, but they only extend as far as the hand can reach. The voice of the people hold power wherever it can be heard!

Any questions about the players involved, or the timeline of events, refer to my previous notes.

More will be added later.

Stay educated, stay free. Long live the Revolution!

What is happening in Iran? Part 1
What is happening in Iran? Part 2


Slideshow of the Iranian People's Struggle
Peaceful protesters caught in crossfire.
Because the hospitals have been seized by pro-government Basij, protesters are forced to go to makeshift hospitals for treatment. Here's the inside of one.
Protesters take a policeman to safety even after he was caught beating them.


World Protests in support of the Iranians. The world is a witness.


Anonymous' Declaration of Support
Anonymous' Declaration of War
Anonymous Iran HQ
Anonymous' War Room Daily Brief


Tatsuma's Collection of Torrents & Video
Tatsuma's Collection of Links and News Articles
ladypolitik Live Journal
Youtube Free Iran Channel


Protests on the 28th
Youtube Video of the 28th of June's March
Youtube Video of Riot Police Being Protected by Rioters on the 28th
Iranian's Making Their Voices Heard on the 29th.

SupremeLeader: Cormee: ..b..bu..but I thought Twitter, Tatsuma and the little green box on the Fark logo had created an unstoppable movement. A force who by their posting of disparaging comments on a daily basis and recycling material from other sources had liberated Iran and had created a watershed moment. A moment that would be henceforth be regarded as a turning-point in the modern democratic process and signal a new era where indignant nerds are able to topple foreign governments through frantic Twittering.

Oh wait. Michael Jackson died.

How dare you!
I twittered 'til my fingers bled.
Well, what I thought was blood was actually strawberry jam stains.
But for a moment, I bled green for the Iranian freedom fighters who I wanted to blow up with nukes a couple of weeks ago, but who are now my bestest friends.

/101st Keyboarder signing off.

And FTFA - something about the RevGuard cranking up their online disinformation campaigns. Still a bit of fire under that ash, isn't there? Could flare up at any time.

Pretty fascinating to watch, really - people getting the shiat kicked out of them and coming back for more day after day. Fact is, we are watching from the sidelines, powerless to do anything due to our own sordid history as well as something about the military being "stretched", whatever that means.

I hope for the best for all the people there, as I did when John McCain was joking about bombing them. He is a farkstick when it comes to anything outside the golf courses in Arizona. He's learning, though - I give him that. In a few decades the man might learn enough to participate in the debate without looking like a retard.

As for the identification many people in the world feel for the Iranian voters, do you not get that? Do I need to explain it to you? We want them to get their democracy in order so we can start doing business with them. I want to sell shiat to Iranian teens with tons of oil money.

For that matter, if the regime continues to win, will they take the unrest as a signal that it's time for some radical fiscal changes, or that it's time to finish that damned nuke already?


Much thanks to Tats et all for the awesome analysis and to the trolls for making me giggle till I farted. I don't have the stamina to follow this as closely as I'd like and FARK has actually become what I consider to be a fairly reliable discussion forum.

So I mean what I say about the differing viewpoints - if I leave the thread having been exposed to a viewpoint I didn't think of before - it wasn't a total waste of my time.

Looking forward to an eventful and entertaining 4th of July.

/Happy Sovereignty Day!

Hollerin Charlie: I hope for the best for all the people there, as I did when John McCain was joking about bombing them. He is a farkstick when it comes to anything outside the golf courses in Arizona. He's learning, though - I give him that. In a few decades the man might learn enough to participate in the debate without looking like a retard.

I don't think he thought his cunning plan through.

Damn it, I forgot to take out the "Check out my previous notes" line in the pamphlet I put up there. Well, I hope if someone else uses the damn thing, they notice that, so people don't get confused.

Fireproof: TappingTheVein: The iranian police chief now claims that Neda Sultan's death was staged.

The only surprising thing about this for me is that they didn't blame the jews for this yet.

Thus far I have heard them say:

- It was staged.

- It was an accident by either the police or Basij (surprisingly half-honest for this regime)

- She was killed by a CIA sniper, conveniently out of site and not captured or seen by anyone's camera, I suppose.

- And yes, that it was Israel's doing somehow.

/I guess they haven't learned to go with one story and stick to it as far as this incident is concerned

You forgot the one where she was killed by a hitman hired by the BBC so they could do a documentary.

That one's my personal favorite. Until, that is, they get smart and claim that Michael Jackson killed her. Looking forward to that one.

This news isn't important! I need to know if Obama smokes cigarretes again!

Iranian Government: "You're not allowed to protest anymore."

Humanity: "Fine, then you're not allowed to exist anymore."

That pretty much goes for any government that thinks it can tell its citizens they don't get to protest.

/I'm looking at you, Mr. "Free Speech zones"

SupremeLeader: So this is Iran's Tiananmen Square.

They'll erase the atrocities from the official history books and the next generation will grow up ignorant, materialistic, and unaware.

Just as in China and the West.

It'll be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case. What makes some revolutions work, like the fall of the Communist party in Russia, and others fail, like Tienanmen Square? Obviously, an Islamic theocracy is different than an officially atheist Communist government, but power corrupts no matter whether it's carried out with ideology or a holy book.

Um, said the JERUSALEM Post? Is this not an Israeli newspaper? I don't know, maybe I should read the article, but it just sent warning flags that this is coming from an Israeli Newspaper, and Israel has wanted to bomb Iran since forever ago.

Now I'll go read the article, and make sure the Jerusalem Post is actually an Israeli rag. :D

There was no independent confirmation of the report.

And then the article goes on to say alot of things that ARE true to make the execution thing a fact by reference.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't put it past Iran, but this thing is not yet a confirmed fact, and I take anything written by a country's sworn enemy with a grain of salt.

Nappy Imus: Um, said the JERUSALEM Post? Is this not an Israeli newspaper? I don't know, maybe I should read the article, but it just sent warning flags that this is coming from an Israeli Newspaper, and Israel has wanted to bomb Iran since forever ago.

Now I'll go read the article, and make sure the Jerusalem Post is actually an Israeli rag. :D

That's the spirit. It's good to see a few Westerns who don't have blindfolds over their eyes unlike these foreign provocateurs.

Westerners, even. With that I think I'll take my leave.

esteban9: It'll be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case. What makes some revolutions work, like the fall of the Communist party in Russia, and others fail, like Tienanmen Square? Obviously, an Islamic theocracy is different than an officially atheist Communist government, but power corrupts no matter whether it's carried out with ideology or a holy book.

Communism, at least Marxist-Leninism, pretended to be a highly scientific political philosophy that promised actual real-world results in terms of reducing inequity, propagating revolution, and collapsing capitalist states. It was, theoretically, supposed to be more sustainable and inevitable. Instead, by the '90s it was more than clear to the reasonably educated and not-entirely-oblivious population (given that they did attempt to educate their people, rather than go Pol Pot-esque Year Zero) and to the government that they had broadly failed -- party members formed an elite, it was the Communist governments that faced economic collapse rather than the capitalist systems, and so forth. They were having difficulty competing in either high-tech weapons systems or consumer products. Satellite governments had occasionally protested to the point of showing a different path -- e.g. Dubcek / Prague Spring. They'd already gone brutally and universally repressive (Stalin...) and had gone as far as repudiating a fair bit of that (as early as Khrushchev, IIRC), and Gorbachev apparently didn't have the stomach to repeat that.

The Chinese government did a better job of maintaining control partly because the population's less educated and rather nationalistic (*lots* of poor and uneducated rural peasants, lots of history of being exploited to belabor), partly because they'd focused on labor-intensive industrial power (thus cranking out goods for export) and not so much bothering to be a military superpower on the same scale, partly because they've always relied on repression and never purged their ideology of it. It's a culture where even those with substantial exposure to the West, like Jackie Chan, openly suggest that Chinese people *need* to be controlled and aren't ready for freedom. It also needs to be a mass movement when the population is well over 1B... and students tend not to have the leverage of, say, striking industrial workers. And there's not much of a historical ideology against which to demand consistency, either. The fact that they hosted the Taiping rebellion (perhaps 20-30M killed, 1850-1864 -- probably nastier than the Russian civil war even considering population ratios) and the Chinese civil war (perhaps 3.2M killed/wounded not counting civvies), and that they have people to spare, probably also makes the loss of life from snuffing out nascent insurrections look rather appealing and minimalistic compared to large-scale civil wars that have periodically afflicted them. i.e. greater willingness to prioritize stability.


/must sleep

I'll just add one more thing:

Gorbachev didn't really have to personally fear anything like, say, trial for crimes against humanity. He wasn't exactly a major figure while Lenin was terrorizing enemies or during Stalin's purges, for instance. The higher-ups in the Chinese government during Tienanmen -- well, Deng Xiaoping and some other Long Marchers and other party veterans were still alive and influential.

ciberido: /I'm looking at you, Mr. "Free Speech zones"

Yeah free speech zones are exactly the same.


I remember when snipers started shooting people who were otuside of the free speech zones.

Korovyov: esteban9: It'll be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case. What makes some revolutions work, like the fall of the Communist party in Russia, and others fail, like Tienanmen Square? Obviously, an Islamic theocracy is different than an officially atheist Communist government, but power corrupts no matter whether it's carried out with ideology or a holy book.

Communism, at least Marxist-Leninism...snip

So the differences in outcomes are largely due to education? Young Iranians are pretty well educated, at least in a relative sense, no? Many go off to foreign universities. Thus, by your analogies, then the current revolution has a good chance of success?

SupremeLeader: So this is Iran's Tiananmen Square.

They'll erase the atrocities from the official history books and the next generation will grow up ignorant, materialistic, and unaware.

Just as in China and the West.

But not unwilling to resist, even if no-one hears about it. Ten days ago I got word (and a link to some photographs) from a source in China reporting unrest in Hubei province, to which the Chinese government had apparently responded in typical fashion by shutting down the Internet and sending in the troops. In comparison to what we've seen come out of Iran lately, the photos are relatively tame (though there's a nice batch of wreckage in the streets halfway down the page). Now, I've seen some modest reporting on this situation since then, but certainly not via mainstream American news. That doesn't mean that the unrest hasn't happened, that 10,000 people didn't protest, or burn police cars (according to my source) and break stuff, and it doesn't mean that China doesn't experience other, similar incidents with some frequency, it just means that the average American hasn't heard about it, and that the Chinese government has been relatively successful in keeping Chinese people from drumming up support for such protests via the Internet.

While people in China (and the West) might well be ignorant of prior government abuses due to whitewashing and media censorship (whether state-inflicted, corporate sponsor-inflicted, or self-inflicted), and people everywhere care first and foremost about filling their bellies and looking out for the material comforts of themselves and their families, sooner or later oppressed people chafe beneath the yoke again, and try to put aside the burden of that oppression.

These things do not spring up out of nowhere, overnight. Even rebellions that seem swift and sudden have a long and often hidden history. The first shot fired in the American Revolution was in 1772, four years before the Declaration of Independence and the official rejection of British rule.

This is not over, and the seeds planted at Tiananmen are not dead, only dormant, perhaps barely that.

The Iranians of the Green Revolution asked us to witness their struggle for a reason. We can snark all we want about the impotence of FARK and Twitter nerd rage, but passing on the word might well be the best thing we do.

/If we're going to sit here growing fat in front of the computer, we might as well make ourselves useful.
//After an insomniac night on FARK and Twitter, bed would be useful too...
///505th night watch signing out...