dr-shotgun: It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.


No, it is a reaction to the fact that some Americans on Fark look on at the UK with shock and horror because we see our country sliding in that direction. What comes out of the rhetoric sounds like insulting claptrap (because it often is), but this is really driven by fear.

The funny thing is that I love the English people I know. The tend to be very amusing, intelligent and friendly with a lot of caracter. But I read news out of England and it horrifies me:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

I've got nothing on this one. Local councils are were we house our petty minded busy bodies. Middle class England seems to produce a lot of them. I too hear all these horror stories but my local council collects my bins without hassle and provides a host of other useful services while staying out of my life. Same for everyone I know.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

The surveillance apparatus is not as massive as you think. The terrifying numbers about CCTV come from a study of single street in London that failed to differentiate between private and state CCTV and then extrapolated wildly. Being filmed in public is not robbing anyone of their privacy. You are not in private walking the public streets. Our data protection laws are also remarkable robust as a counter.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

Knives and guns are not totally banned. You can own knives and shotguns. You can't wander around in public wielding them wildly. I'm the health and safety bod where I work. The actual regulations are not onerous. I spend at most 10 minutes a day on it. Do people interpret them incorrectly and wildly over react, sure. Then the media goes all 'omg H&S gone mad lolz'.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Bwahahaha. Sorry I shouldn't laugh you are being polite and I appreciate it but really. You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight. The is deemed assault over here. Lots of the UK glorifies violence, football hooliganism, random rumbles in pubs.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.

Huge taxes that we get a lot of services from, sure. Sensationalist press is a worldwide, and inevitable, phenomenon. As are crazy advocacy groups. The solution to speed cameras is not to speed, the government is indeed broken. British food is lovely. British cooks of our grandparents generation are a disgrace.

I'm waiting to see if the link gets approved but I'd just like to add that today the government climbed down on ID cards. They will not be compulsory. I've always said it would never make it through, and I'm damn glad to see this small victory.

Shatner's Bassoon: Ok I misspoke, I was referring mostly to pistols. I understand that guns are highly regulated in the UK. I was merely attempting to create a comparison, since I have never lived in the UK.

My apologies. However, licensing for shotguns is pretty much unheard of in the USA. You just go to Walmart and buy one, and then you go somewhere else because Walmart's ammunition prices are terrible.

dr-shotgun: It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

No, it is a reaction to the fact that some Americans on Fark look on at the UK with shock and horror because we see our country sliding in that direction. What comes out of the rhetoric sounds like insulting claptrap (because it often is), but this is really driven by fear.

The funny thing is that I love the English people I know. The tend to be very amusing, intelligent and friendly with a lot of caracter. But I read news out of England and it horrifies me:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.


Whole lot of hyperbolized whaargarbl there. Not enough time to respond to all of that, but boy do you hold a lot of misonceptions. Do you gain your perception of the UK purely from Daily Mail articles by any chance?

And honestly, for that matter, if you're fairly street savvy, you can come up with an unlicensed handgun in any major US city within a matter of hours, and usually for less than $200. Of course it is ridiculously illegal, which does nothing to improve my confidence in US gun law attempts as they stand right now.

It's not even difficult to grab a concealed carry license here, and unless you visit a lot of schools or other government buildings, you can pack that sucker almost 24/7 if that is your desire. I even know some guys who carry openly on their hip while they're out on the town. If you don't look like a thug, people don't even bat an eyelash.

TheMega: Have to wonder... are kids even able to mow the lawns over there?

mmmmm hmmmm...

I reckon I like them French fried potaters.

Pic of kid itfa = fail. His collar is popped.



/pic hot linked because I'm in a hurry

I seem to remember being a thirteen year old boyscout and helping my scout troop cut through brush with machetes... you mean to tell me the UK has a thing against landscaping?

I'ld like me sum musterd n biscets. But I ain't old enough to buy on the internets... mmmm hmmmm

dr-shotgun:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.

THIS!
A thousand times THIS. OK, so I'm in Scotland (same "state", in the UN sense, as England, but the two are separate to a degree similar to that of US states, but we don't have a federal government really), so our laws are slightly different, but on most areas like security, and self-defense and gun ownership we're completely the same.
In fact, our Government wants control over weapons and knife laws so we can *increase* them (the little sods here like shooting each other and people's toddlers/dogs/cats with hugh-powered CO2 rifles, which aren't illegal, but London doesn't care because it doesn't happen in England). Now I'm a supporter of the SNP (the party running the Scottish Government), hell I'm even an activist.
But I really disagree with their line on self-defence. Verminous scum that I see on the streets every day will break the law, it's what they do. Saying we'll jail you for having a knife (10 years will be the minimum sentence, although that really means 4 with good behaviour) will not mean shiat to these people, because they already face a couple of years for the 25g of smack in their back pocket.
I, on the other hand, who have never been arrested for anything, also face 10 years if I were to be caught carrying a pocket-knife as proof against the gangs of roving scum.
Guns are a little different. I think they should be heavily regulated. If you want one, you'll need vetted, licensed etc. and made to store it in a proper place, and need a fair reason to have one in the first place (and I'll include "collector" and "sportsman" in that); this will actually help drive down the black market in gun sales, meaning less for the vermin, who, because they don't mind breaking the law, are the only people on the streets who have guns, and so act with impunity. Only the armed police can face them, and they're like your SWAT teams, they only get called if someone's already doing something. The regular cops have CS and a baton...
Maybe when we (Scotland) get independence from the cowering wet blankets in London we'll rediscover some balls. This is Scotland after all, the place just 2 years ago a man broke his foot kicking an armed terrorist in the balls. I'd note that the terrorist was actually on fire at the time. So we have some collective balls left. Somewhere...

/obligatory

Wizard Drongo: I, on the other hand, who have never been arrested for anything, also face 10 years if I were to be caught carrying a pocket-knife as proof against the gangs of roving scum.

Good Lord! Does the 10 years have anything to do with it being concealed?

I live in Virginia, here in the USA. I could go buy a handgun right now, and then carry it around openly in public, loaded and chambered, and it would be legal. I could fill my house with enough rifles to arm a small army.

I am very liberal on most issues, but firearms are one thing I am fairly conservative on.

FTFA:
Knives have become a status symbol among some young people and the increase in searching by police officers means some young people dash into shops to buy knives for "instant arming".

Oh noes! They better implement a waiting period on knife sales.

at80eighty: gee. I wonder what sporting utilities does a machete have

I keep one in the back of my Cherokee. I fish a lot and you never know when you might need it to clear brush away from a good spot. Plus, it might come in handy when the zombie apocalypse comes.

Haha, that's really the kid from TFA? I'd probably slice him up with a machete just on principle for looking like such a douchebag. Is the UK really 5 years behind the US on douchebag styling?

thalassatx: Not a lot of baseball bats in England, Subby.

Very true, they call it "Rounders" and it's generally played by girls at school...

Just like American "football" is just rugby with body armour after all...

:P

at80eighty: gee. I wonder what sporting utilities does a machete have

It's not sport, but I trim my rows of raspberry bushes with one. Maybe I'd better start doing it at night before one of my neighbors observes my criminal activity.

Wizard Drongo: Maybe when we (Scotland) get independence from the cowering wet blankets in London we'll rediscover some balls. This is Scotland after all, the place just 2 years ago a man broke his foot kicking an armed terrorist in the balls. I'd note that the terrorist was actually on fire at the time. So we have some collective balls left. Somewhere...

He didn't break his foot kicking an armed, on fire terrorist in the balls. He broke his leg falling over after he was punched by the terrorist (who wasn't armed, but was on fire), and had to be saved by another bystander as he lay on the floor next to a burning car. He also lost a bunch of teeth from where he was punched.

/as Top Gear say "ambitious but rubbish"

Wizard Drongo:

...
I, on the other hand, who have never been arrested for anything, also face 10 years if I were to be caught carrying a pocket-knife as proof against the gangs of roving scum.
...

O.K. Would I get like 75 years for having this?

I mean. Look at all the sharp pointy things that could be used to do evil!

Seriously though. I use a leatherman constantly for work while traveling the globe. Should I fear the pokey if in Scottland on a job?

Someone needs to collectively backhand everyone in the UK.

Just one good smack and a "SMARTEN UP!". I think they would see less embarrassing legislation. I mean honestly, they have to be in some panicky fugue.

The surveillance apparatus is not as massive as you think. The terrifying numbers about CCTV come from a study of single street in London that failed to differentiate between private and state CCTV and then extrapolated wildly. Being filmed in public is not robbing anyone of their privacy. You are not in private walking the public streets. Our data protection laws are also remarkable robust as a counter.

CCTV I don't so much have a problem with. It is when yo combine the digital video with automatic number plate recognition, automatic facial recognition and powerful computer databases. Combine all of that (which the UK is attempting to do at a rapid pace), and you have created a system that can track individual movements across an entire country. Given how the UK government wields massive regulation and such, such a system would terrify me.

Knives and guns are not totally banned. You can own knives and shotguns. You can't wander around in public wielding them wildly. I'm the health and safety bod where I work. The actual regulations are not onerous. I spend at most 10 minutes a day on it. Do people interpret them incorrectly and wildly over react, sure. Then the media goes all 'omg H&S gone mad lolz'.

Nobody argues that one shouldn't be "wielding them wildly." I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing. None of us go around waving these things around for god sakes. Out of all the CCW holders I know, only myself and another have ever pulled our weapons out of the holster (I didn't fire, she shot someone who tried to rape her). Same with knives; everyone in Portland has a Benchmade, Gerber of Spiderco clipped in their pants pocket.

That a citizen who avails himself of the most basic of hand tools (a knife) and the most effective means of self defense (a firearm) would be relegated to being a criminal simply for possessing and carrying these implements disgusts me. That UK society has become so disconnected to the realities of life that they criminalize the good folks from such tools is a reflection of how coddled and clueless that tiny island has become. The government cannot protect you. They cannot round up all the scofflaws.

Bwahahaha. Sorry I shouldn't laugh you are being polite and I appreciate it but really. You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight. The is deemed assault over here. Lots of the UK glorifies violence, football hooliganism, random rumbles in pubs.

How does that work? So you can defend yourself, but you cannot posses the tools necessary to do so effectively? How is a 5' woman supposed to protect herself from 3 large teenagers ready to rape/rob her at knifepoint? She can't even carry as much as a butter knife. Pathetic.

I have always been curious, but how does UK society square that circle? How does a society turn it's nose up at people who want to defend themselves (as if we are, at best, unsophisticated luddites or hero fantasy idiots at worst)?

Scotland too...

sorry

Subby apparently doesn't know about the Trinitarios (new window)

An armed society is a polite society

Which is why Sadr City, Helmand Province, Mogadishu & Detroit are such bastions of social etiquette. No motherf*cker uses the fish knife during the meat course in those places.

opiumpoopy:Any adult in the UK who isn't a criminal or insane can get a licence for a shotgun or hunting rifle, to keep at home. Anyone. It's only handguns you aren't allowed.

We just don't bother, because there aren't millions of burglars out there with guns.

No. Not anyone.
Shotguns are a bit easier if you have the land to shoot on but rifles are a lot tougher as they require a full on Firearms Licence. .22 rimfire is the easiest to get but you still need a reason to own one and the local police decide what you may or may not own.
Full bore much more difficult and automatics not allowed.

There are a lot of burglaries in the UK.

We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Relatively Obscure: In some countries, they just shove one of those into your hand as soon as it pops out of your mom's vag. And those places are AWESOME.

Wait....what?

Go into a school classroom and you are likely to find a metal-edged ruler (straight-edge), a pair of scissors and a hard (ceramic) drinking mug. Maybe even a metal folding chair.

/I used a chair once in choir when some meathead grabbed my hair from behind

snuff3r: adamgreeney: I fail to see how this is a fail.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

Just smile and nod.

Of course, this is just a coping mechanism used to deal with the fact that you have no real argument for gun control.
Back on topic, I don't care if the whole country doesn't want rampant gun ownership, but this incident is a FAIL. If a kid is going to stab or cut someone, he is not going to be carrying a machete around London. He is going to use a smaller knife that he can hide from the cameras and police (not saying Britain is a police state, so STFU before you accuse me of that).
What is wrong with a kid being allowed to buy a machete? It is a tool. If it were a switchblade, I could see the point: It's designed for easy concealment for use in an attack, either on you by you. A machete, though, is designed for use in camping, and for clearing bush. I've used one for basic yardwork.

Why not freak out if a kid buys a hammer or screwdriver? Both of those could be used as a weapon? The first car I owned came with a tire iron; should that be made illegal?
/subby

dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

William the Conqueror is rolling in his grave.

dr-shotgun: Same with knives; everyone in Portland has a Benchmade, Gerber of Spiderco clipped in their pants pocket.

That a citizen who avails himself of the most basic of hand tools (a knife) and the most effective means of self defense (a firearm) would be relegated to being a criminal simply for possessing and carrying these implements disgusts me. That UK society has become so disconnected to the realities of life that they criminalize the good folks from such tools is a reflection of how coddled and clueless that tiny island has become. The government cannot protect you. They cannot round up all the scofflaws.

Yup. This.
If I carry my leatherman tool on my belt I'm breaking the law, so I don't. But I enormously resent being subject to laws made by people with no common sense.

Iron Chef Scottish: An armed society is a polite society

Which is why Sadr City, Helmand Province, Mogadishu & Detroit are such bastions of social etiquette. No motherf*cker uses the fish knife during the meat course in those places.

All of those places would benefit from proper firearms training. Do you disagree?

In a world where animals and humans both exhibit textbook Darwinism, you will find that the same principle applies as you ramp up aggression and defensive capability.

However, your definition of polite may differ from mine. My version is "don't try to rob me while I'm walking down the street, and I won't make it so only your mother and your dentist can identify you afterwards."

binnster: dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

binnster: dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

No, it isn't. Especially Oregon. It's just that we are goddamned stubborn and proud of our constitutional rights, and when threads like this come up, we make sure to proclaim it. I don't know where you're visiting from, but if it's the UK, your history books will explain how we respond to infringement upon our rights, earned or perceived.

dr-shotgun:
It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

Lolwut? In what way was that answer to my question?

What sport do you need a machete for?

binnster: I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

I'd imagine the US equivalent of chavs and hoodies think twice before drunkenly abusing people in concealed carry states.
The point is the (legal) weapons are to stop any violence not create it. You'll see fire extinguishers in public buildings here and the US - doesn't mean office blocks are exploding everywhere!

binnster: dr-shotgun:
It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

Lolwut? In what way was that answer to my question?

Yes, there are manticores, dragons and displacer beasts commonly roaming the streets of Seattle. At night, the townsfolk huddle in terror of the damning wail of the Baen-Sidhe, clutching their enchanted machetes with their ears stoppered in hopes of deflecting the denizens of the night.

Camden? You don't want to see the nameless, eldritch horrors that roam the non-euclidean byways of that cesspool, let me tell you. Only a fool would wander that terrible hellscape unarmed.

Be wary.

Oblio13: It's not sport, but I trim my rows of raspberry bushes with one. Maybe I'd better start doing it at night before one of my neighbors observes my criminal activity.

I think you know exactly what I meant

I never said a machete had no use at all

I always had the understanding that hunting was still allowed in the UK and you could own shotguns/hunting rifles. And from reading the posts here, I see this is true. As long as you can get a shottie, you can defend your home from anyone. I have no problem with people getting checked out first.

Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't (our country was founded on it after all) and do not want any official agency recording who owns guns.

Although, I live in Ohio and have been to many gun shows - there's nothing better than picking up an AK47 and a few hundred rounds of ammo without any hassles.

Iron Chef Scottish: An armed society is a polite society

Which is why Sadr City, Helmand Province, Mogadishu & Detroit are such bastions of social etiquette. No motherf*cker uses the fish knife during the meat course in those places.

He said "polite", not foppish.

I'm willing to bet that the local equivalents of "please", "thank you", and "pardon me" are used quite regularly in those places.

You can be polite without being a fancy lad.

ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Illidan: ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Um. What? Concealed Carry is a state licensure that is good in every other state that allows it in the nation.

Illidan: ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Yes, you're exactly right. It definitely helps to avoid being a marginalized drug dealer if you'd like to get the green light to carry a concealed weapon.

It turns out that in most places, being a regular citizen without a criminal record is just enough to pull it off.

As well it should be.

Gen. Apathy: Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't

why? Does your government routinely break into every home and harass the average citizen at inconvenient times of the day?

hardinparamedic: Concealed Carry...

That's not actually true. A concealed carry permit in Oregon is good in Washington, but not in California, as an example.

i've had one of these since i was 12 years old. a WWII U.S. Marines issue machete. heavy as hell and holds a nice edge.

at80eighty: Gen. Apathy: Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't

why? Does your government routinely break into every home and harass the average citizen at inconvenient times of the day?

They used to, back when it was the Crown.

In contrast to what most Europeans generally think, Americans *DO* have long memories.

DancingJester You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight. The is deemed assault over here. Lots of the UK glorifies violence, football hooliganism, random rumbles in pubs.



Well then that is a problem. Quite simply that is bullshiat thinking.

Should an old man of seventy have to put up his fists to defend himself from a bunch of twenty year old thugs? Or an old woman should just learn how to do kung fu? That is stupid. If you are a law abiding citizen with a licensed handgun and you have taken classes then you are contributing to the betterment of society.

I believe that you Brits are living in a magical imaginary world where you think it is still 1965. You have a worse crime rate in many of your cities than in most US cities and that is something very new because we were always the most violent of societies. You are going to have to change, or soon you will see a big rise in another type of lawlessness, the common folk are going to start importing handguns illegally to protect themselves.

I know because we went through the same thing in some of our large cities in the 1970's. We had strict gun control coupled with extreme leniency for criminals. It lead to an entire culture of vigilantism where the popular movies were flicks like Death Wish.

You will also see the rise in some perhaps quite nasty far right political parties. People will simply not be victims forever.