It's not the BBC, but trading standards officers that are upset and that's because it's illegal.

FTA...The law states that it is illegal to sell a knife or bladed article to anyone aged under 18, with businesses and staff facing a fine of up to £5,000 or six months in prison for doing so.

In some countries, they just shove one of those into your hand as soon as it pops out of your mom's vag. And those places are AWESOME.

Not a lot of baseball bats in England, Subby.

Um, i don't sell knives to kids under 18 either subby. Why is that bad? I'd rather not have their parents come back and stab me with it, and I don't want to be liable for what they do.

I fail to see how this is a fail.

When I was roughly 10 years old, I always bought machete's from Mexico and brought them back home to south texas. My parents never cared, nor did the border patrol agents. Of course they were usually as dull as a baseball bat until I sharpened them on my dad's axe grinder.

I thought baseball bats were considered weapons in England.

I say, old chap, if you intend to employ Machete to apprehend the arrant hooligan, do make sure that the arrant hooligan isn't YOU!

adamgreeney: I fail to see how this is a fail.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

Just smile and nod.

Some days I really think that the only difference between Fark and the right-wing gutter press is that the Sun will still show bare tits.

Soon people there will be killing each other with pointy sticks. Maybe they'll ban trees next.

thalassatx: Not a lot of baseball bats in England, Subby.

Cricket?

snuff3r: It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

The Brits founded a global empire based upon guns with sharp pointy things on the end of them. Now, they can't own knives. No wonder that their main exports seems to be bad teeth and inedible food.

Trading standards officers have called for a ban on online knife sales after a machete was sold to a 15-year-old for £1.50 over the internet.

This is not 'FAIL'.

This is a problem worthwhile sorting.

dudemanbro: Soon people there will be killing each other with pointy sticks.

SHADDAP!

I bought a chainsaw when I was 13.

You know, I never got the point of knives having an age limit on them. If you really want a knife, butcher knives have no age limit (at least where I live). Hell, who doesn't live in a place with knives in the kitchen? A really sharp pair of scissors would probably work just as well to stab somebody. If you really wanna go on a stabbing spree, it's going to be hard for anybody to stop you.

Have to wonder... are kids even able to mow the lawns over there?

I got carded at Walmart to buy an axe (I'm 30). Now, with said axe, I had two bags of soil, three bags of garden top, a gopher punch and various other "DOING shiat IN THE YARD, LADY" stuff....got it all ringed up and she asked me for ID.

I didn't go all "whatever admendment protects me from buying an axe without showing ID" on her, just said "oh, cool.." and showed my ID and left thinking "hey, i must be a good looking 30!"

I dont really agree with it, but I understand. And now I got a cool red handled axe that makes me whistle a nick cave song everytime I heft it.

TheMega Amen. I mow my lawn...with a bazooka. Yee-haw.
submitter: tit.

I'm sorry Britain, your citizens are dying via butter knives and spatulas in 3.....2.......

thalassatx: Not a lot of baseball bats in England, Subby.

Francis Begbie would like to introduce you to "the discipline ay the basebaw bat."

dudemanbro: Soon people there will be killing each other with pointy sticks. Maybe they'll ban trees next.

Potential murder weapons:

When I was a kid we didn't have the Internet, but I could take a short walk uptown to Whitehead's Cutlery shop where you could buy any knife you wanted.

They had not only machetes, but replica Rambo knives (those were popular then), switch blades, even Samurai swords. Almost any kind of knife you wanted. They even had Chinese throwing stars. I bought lots of those.

gee. I wonder what sporting utilities does a machete have

Lenin: I got carded at Walmart to buy an axe (I'm 30). Now, with said axe, I had two bags of soil, three bags of garden top, a gopher punch and various other "DOING shiat IN THE YARD, LADY" stuff....got it all ringed up and she asked me for ID.

I didn't go all "whatever admendment protects me from buying an axe without showing ID" on her, just said "oh, cool.." and showed my ID and left thinking "hey, i must be a good looking 30!"

I dont really agree with it, but I understand. And now I got a cool red handled axe that makes me whistle a nick cave song everytime I heft it.

Dude....I got carded last year at Wal-Mart for buying an R-rated movie.....and I was 37 at the time! And I had hair that would rival Captain Stubings!! Tell you what...these clerks should be bartenders/bouncers....

Way to go, Brits!!!!! Now you are officially paranoid as the US Govt..........

Gordon Bennett: Some days I really think that the only difference between Fark and the right-wing gutter press is that the Sun will still show bare tits.

Heh heh. Good one.

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Now, they can't own knives.

My kitchen says otherwise. So does my toolbox, and my camping gear, oh and the mini swiss-army knife I carry on my keyring.

Lunakki: You know, I never got the point of knives having an age limit on them. If you really want a knife, butcher knives have no age limit (at least where I live). Hell, who doesn't live in a place with knives in the kitchen? A really sharp pair of scissors would probably work just as well to stab somebody. If you really wanna go on a stabbing spree, it's going to be hard for anybody to stop you.

Butcher knives have the same limit, there isn't some arbitrary rule about "scary" knives (like the US and its Scary Assault Weapon ban ), if you're under 18 you can't buy a machete and you can't buy a paring knife, or anything in between. Probably mainly because of your argument, you can stab someone with any sort of knife, and to be honest, if you're wandering around with a 9 inch butcher knife in your pocket, it's not as if you're carrying it on the off chance of doing a little bit of food preparation at the side of the road.

Lenin: I got carded at Walmart to buy an axe (I'm 30). Now, with said axe, I had two bags of soil, three bags of garden top, a gopher punch and various other "DOING shiat IN THE YARD, LADY" stuff....got it all ringed up and she asked me for ID.

Was "various other" rubber gloves, duct tape, a ball gag, lube and a shovel? :-) I suspect they wanted to get a record of who you are for when the police investigation into the missing prostitutes starts.

Also, gopher punch? Is that like a donkey punch but with buck teeth? :-)

Raging_Rabbit: Way to go, Brits!!!!! Now you are officially paranoid as the US Govt..........

hear hear. Any country where I cant walk around carrying a giant blade in public is no country for me

Raging_Rabbit: Lenin: I got carded at Walmart to buy an axe (I'm 30). Now, with said axe, I had two bags of soil, three bags of garden top, a gopher punch and various other "DOING shiat IN THE YARD, LADY" stuff....got it all ringed up and she asked me for ID.

I didn't go all "whatever admendment protects me from buying an axe without showing ID" on her, just said "oh, cool.." and showed my ID and left thinking "hey, i must be a good looking 30!"

I dont really agree with it, but I understand. And now I got a cool red handled axe that makes me whistle a nick cave song everytime I heft it.

Dude....I got carded last year at Wal-Mart for buying an R-rated movie.....and I was 37 at the time! And I had hair that would rival Captain Stubings!! Tell you what...these clerks should be bartenders/bouncers....

Wal-Mart treats its employees like shiat for the most part, and takes every opportunity to rid itself of "troublemakers". That's why the staff that's left has that dead eyed zombie look, and will mindlessly ask for ID whenever the register tells them too. They even punch in the real birth date, instead of something easy like 7/7/77.

Pinko_Commie: Gordon Bennett: Some days I really think that the only difference between Fark and the right-wing gutter press is that the Sun will still show bare tits.

Heh heh. Good one.

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Now, they can't own knives.

My kitchen says otherwise. So does my toolbox, and my camping gear, oh and the mini swiss-army knife I carry on my keyring.

Lunakki: You know, I never got the point of knives having an age limit on them. If you really want a knife, butcher knives have no age limit (at least where I live). Hell, who doesn't live in a place with knives in the kitchen? A really sharp pair of scissors would probably work just as well to stab somebody. If you really wanna go on a stabbing spree, it's going to be hard for anybody to stop you.

Butcher knives have the same limit, there isn't some arbitrary rule about "scary" knives (like the US and its Scary Assault Weapon ban ), if you're under 18 you can't buy a machete and you can't buy a paring knife, or anything in between. Probably mainly because of your argument, you can stab someone with any sort of knife, and to be honest, if you're wandering around with a 9 inch butcher knife in your pocket, it's not as if you're carrying it on the off chance of doing a little bit of food preparation at the side of the road.

LOL....yet at the same time here in Texas, if you have a pair of wire-cutters in your back pocket, they can arrest you for potential cattle-rustling. It's an 100+-year old law. If I cattle-rustled, I would do it with a farking truck-trailer combo and be in and out of there REAL quick. (Take note FBI, USDA, CIA, or whomever your retarded agency happens to be.....I just might become a threat...and all I can say to that is F**K YOU!!!!!) F**K the gov't and you too.....Come to my house and I will exclusively EXERCISE my 2nd amendment....hear me f**kers?????!!!.....

Raging_Rabbit: Pinko_Commie: Gordon Bennett: Some days I really think that the only difference between Fark and the right-wing gutter press is that the Sun will still show bare tits.

Heh heh. Good one.

Secret Master of All Flatulence: Now, they can't own knives.

My kitchen says otherwise. So does my toolbox, and my camping gear, oh and the mini swiss-army knife I carry on my keyring.

Lunakki: You know, I never got the point of knives having an age limit on them. If you really want a knife, butcher knives have no age limit (at least where I live). Hell, who doesn't live in a place with knives in the kitchen? A really sharp pair of scissors would probably work just as well to stab somebody. If you really wanna go on a stabbing spree, it's going to be hard for anybody to stop you.

Butcher knives have the same limit, there isn't some arbitrary rule about "scary" knives (like the US and its Scary Assault Weapon ban ), if you're under 18 you can't buy a machete and you can't buy a paring knife, or anything in between. Probably mainly because of your argument, you can stab someone with any sort of knife, and to be honest, if you're wandering around with a 9 inch butcher knife in your pocket, it's not as if you're carrying it on the off chance of doing a little bit of food preparation at the side of the road.

LOL....yet at the same time here in Texas, if you have a pair of wire-cutters in your back pocket, they can arrest you for potential cattle-rustling. It's an 100+-year old law. If I cattle-rustled, I would do it with a farking truck-trailer combo and be in and out of there REAL quick. (Take note FBI, USDA, CIA, or whomever your retarded agency happens to be.....I just might become a threat...and all I can say to that is F**K YOU!!!!!) F**K the gov't and you too.....Come to my house and I will exclusively EXERCISE my 2nd amendment....hear me f**kers?????!!!.....

Wow....guess I've had enough to drink tonite......

I can't help but think of all the violently crashed parties and general chav mayhem in the UK and wonder if the sale of knives is really the problem.

/I also can't help but wonder how many parents would look on in horror as their million dollar town home is trashed by hoodlums were they in possession of a pump-action 12 gauge at the time

Raging_Rabbit: Wow....guess I've had enough to drink tonite......

I'm not sure, that was close to a great rant. A couple more shots and you'll have reached the perfect level of incoherence.

For the record I was particularly fond of 'I will exclusively EXERCISE my 2nd amendment', I've got an image of some baffled gov employee watching you run around with a piece of paper on a leash. Jump amendment, jump!

Wow....guess I've had enough to drink tonite......

Bah. That's quitter talk.

/drinking is the only known cure for my insomnia
//hooray for castle laws

misanthropic1: I can't help but think of all the violently crashed parties and general chav mayhem in the UK and wonder if the sale of knives is really the problem.

/I also can't help but wonder how many parents would look on in horror as their million dollar town home is trashed by hoodlums were they in possession of a pump-action 12 gauge at the time

Golf clap, sir...

*CLAP CLAP*

I heard an amusing story tonight at my job.....one of waitresses had to leave early to go and check out her fireworks booth. A couple of years ago (during the drought), it was illegal to bring fireworks back into city limits after they had been purchased outside said city limits. Due to the fire ban, all fireworks was treated as illegal......Well, how the hell do you light said illegal fireworks? Matches? A lighter? Those weren't banned, but the fireworks were....Hello!!!! God, this farking nation is stupid and death to those that run it!!!!! I hate this country and the gov't needs to be overthrown!!

Raging_Rabbit: Way to go, Brits!!!!! Now you are officially paranoid as the US Govt..........

Absolutely. I mean, what else is a 15-year-old going to use a machete for other than hacking his way through the dense undergrowth commonly found in our urban centres? farking paranoid government.

DancingJester: Raging_Rabbit: Wow....guess I've had enough to drink tonite......

I'm not sure, that was close to a great rant. A couple more shots and you'll have reached the perfect level of incoherence.

For the record I was particularly fond of 'I will exclusively EXERCISE my 2nd amendment', I've got an image of some baffled gov employee watching you run around with a piece of paper on a leash. Jump amendment, jump!

No, no. You have to stay awake for another 4 and a half hours before I become incoherent. (I am a bartender) But if you have a video of said gov't employee waving around papers (not Monty Python, not obscure enough), I would welcome it.

Absolutely. I mean, what else is a 15-year-old going to use a machete for other than hacking his way through the dense undergrowth commonly found in our urban centres? farking paranoid government.

When I was 13-15 living in a dense urban center, that is exactly what I used mine for, yeah, seriously. And if I had possessed the gumption to kill somebody, I have no doubt I could have found another (and probably better) way; machetes are hard to conceal and leave a mess.

In the US you can buy a shotgun or an assault rifle when you're under 18. My buddy bought an SKS at the Portland expo center when he was 14, and his dad was nowhere near him. He was with me, about 200 yards away, and we were looking at Desert Eagles.

I don't know what to say about England's laws. You can't have guns, and kids can't have anything that could potentially harm anybody ever apparently, but that hasn't stopped gangs of teenagers from stomping people to death on the sidewalk outside their homes. Not even the ubiquitous security cameras on their tiny little island have prevented horrific violent crimes from happening on a daily basis.

In my opinion, if you fear for your life while you're being pummeled by a gang of thugs, exposing your firearm would be a very effective deterrent. And for home defense, nothing soils the drawers of your intruder more than the racking of a 12 gauge. Nothing.

I will never back down from the statement that an armed society is a polite society. In my opinion, the average American's only weakness in public is when he forgets his sidearm.

They always say you should call the police, but it turns out they don't respond. Taking the law into your own hands is irresponsible and reckless, but if your safety is being threatened, we are given all the options we need to defend ourselves.

The old UK Army boxer in the other thread is a great story, but what if his wife had been the one who woke up instead of him? She'd be bleeding out right now, and that smug looking douchebag would be off down the street with their valuables.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

No, it is a reaction to the fact that some Americans on Fark look on at the UK with shock and horror because we see our country sliding in that direction. What comes out of the rhetoric sounds like insulting claptrap (because it often is), but this is really driven by fear.

The funny thing is that I love the English people I know. The tend to be very amusing, intelligent and friendly with a lot of caracter. But I read news out of England and it horrifies me:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.

Raging_Rabbit: No, no. You have to stay awake for another 4 and a half hours before I become incoherent. (I am a bartender) But if you have a video of said gov't employee waving around papers (not Monty Python, not obscure enough), I would welcome it.

It is 10:30 in the morning over here. I have to stay awake for at least another 4 1/2 hours if I want to remain employed!

I have no video *hangs head in shame*

DancingJester: Raging_Rabbit: No, no. You have to stay awake for another 4 and a half hours before I become incoherent. (I am a bartender) But if you have a video of said gov't employee waving around papers (not Monty Python, not obscure enough), I would welcome it.

It is 10:30 in the morning over here. I have to stay awake for at least another 4 1/2 hours if I want to remain employed!

I have no video *hangs head in shame*

Well versed friend. Although I might not be apt to remain vigilant in a few hours as well....

Beware!!! The ENDTIMES are near!!! OMGGarble1!11!! A 15 year old can buy a garden/camping tool!

You can kill somebody with uncooked pasta for God's sake.

Lighten up Francis!

/a garden tool is harmless. It's the disturbed 15 year old that needs help

dagman: Beware!!! The ENDTIMES are near!!! OMGGarble1!11!! A 15 year old can buy a garden/camping tool!

You can kill somebody with uncooked pasta for God's sake.

Lighten up Francis!

/a garden tool is harmless. It's the disturbed 15 year old that needs help

Welcome to America. I wish were more apt to the Darwin Awards. Thanks to frivolous lawsuits and lawyers in general, we skip by barely....

abdul: I don't know what to say about England's laws. You can't have guns... for home defense, nothing soils the drawers of your intruder more than the racking of a 12 gauge. Nothing.

Any adult in the UK who isn't a criminal or insane can get a licence for a shotgun or hunting rifle, to keep at home. Anyone. It's only handguns you aren't allowed.

We just don't bother, because there aren't millions of burglars out there with guns.

Anarchangel: Approves.

OK., so Danny Trejo approves......anyone else?

abdul:
I don't know what to say about England's laws. You can't have guns....

Just a point of order here, you can have guns; my dad owns several.

dr-shotgun: It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.


No, it is a reaction to the fact that some Americans on Fark look on at the UK with shock and horror because we see our country sliding in that direction. What comes out of the rhetoric sounds like insulting claptrap (because it often is), but this is really driven by fear.

The funny thing is that I love the English people I know. The tend to be very amusing, intelligent and friendly with a lot of caracter. But I read news out of England and it horrifies me:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

I've got nothing on this one. Local councils are were we house our petty minded busy bodies. Middle class England seems to produce a lot of them. I too hear all these horror stories but my local council collects my bins without hassle and provides a host of other useful services while staying out of my life. Same for everyone I know.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

The surveillance apparatus is not as massive as you think. The terrifying numbers about CCTV come from a study of single street in London that failed to differentiate between private and state CCTV and then extrapolated wildly. Being filmed in public is not robbing anyone of their privacy. You are not in private walking the public streets. Our data protection laws are also remarkable robust as a counter.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

Knives and guns are not totally banned. You can own knives and shotguns. You can't wander around in public wielding them wildly. I'm the health and safety bod where I work. The actual regulations are not onerous. I spend at most 10 minutes a day on it. Do people interpret them incorrectly and wildly over react, sure. Then the media goes all 'omg H&S gone mad lolz'.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Bwahahaha. Sorry I shouldn't laugh you are being polite and I appreciate it but really. You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight. The is deemed assault over here. Lots of the UK glorifies violence, football hooliganism, random rumbles in pubs.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.

Huge taxes that we get a lot of services from, sure. Sensationalist press is a worldwide, and inevitable, phenomenon. As are crazy advocacy groups. The solution to speed cameras is not to speed, the government is indeed broken. British food is lovely. British cooks of our grandparents generation are a disgrace.

I'm waiting to see if the link gets approved but I'd just like to add that today the government climbed down on ID cards. They will not be compulsory. I've always said it would never make it through, and I'm damn glad to see this small victory.

Shatner's Bassoon: Ok I misspoke, I was referring mostly to pistols. I understand that guns are highly regulated in the UK. I was merely attempting to create a comparison, since I have never lived in the UK.

My apologies. However, licensing for shotguns is pretty much unheard of in the USA. You just go to Walmart and buy one, and then you go somewhere else because Walmart's ammunition prices are terrible.

dr-shotgun: It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

No, it is a reaction to the fact that some Americans on Fark look on at the UK with shock and horror because we see our country sliding in that direction. What comes out of the rhetoric sounds like insulting claptrap (because it often is), but this is really driven by fear.

The funny thing is that I love the English people I know. The tend to be very amusing, intelligent and friendly with a lot of caracter. But I read news out of England and it horrifies me:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.


Whole lot of hyperbolized whaargarbl there. Not enough time to respond to all of that, but boy do you hold a lot of misonceptions. Do you gain your perception of the UK purely from Daily Mail articles by any chance?

And honestly, for that matter, if you're fairly street savvy, you can come up with an unlicensed handgun in any major US city within a matter of hours, and usually for less than $200. Of course it is ridiculously illegal, which does nothing to improve my confidence in US gun law attempts as they stand right now.

It's not even difficult to grab a concealed carry license here, and unless you visit a lot of schools or other government buildings, you can pack that sucker almost 24/7 if that is your desire. I even know some guys who carry openly on their hip while they're out on the town. If you don't look like a thug, people don't even bat an eyelash.

TheMega: Have to wonder... are kids even able to mow the lawns over there?

mmmmm hmmmm...

I reckon I like them French fried potaters.

Pic of kid itfa = fail. His collar is popped.



/pic hot linked because I'm in a hurry

I seem to remember being a thirteen year old boyscout and helping my scout troop cut through brush with machetes... you mean to tell me the UK has a thing against landscaping?

I'ld like me sum musterd n biscets. But I ain't old enough to buy on the internets... mmmm hmmmm

dr-shotgun:

- Town councils that are just over the top with strictly enforced, utterly petty rules. Like a giant, government backed HOA.

- A massive surveillance apparatus that seems to have done little to secure the nation while robbing UK subjects of their privacy to a shocking level.

- A (and I hate the use the phrase, but it is apt here) nanny state mentality with massive regulation of everything and total bans on things like knives and guns out of some false fear that this will protect the citizens.

- A complete loss of the basic human right of self defense that is produced from an alluring mix of making illegal the means (i.e. gun control), a complete distaste for violence, no matter how justified, and the coddling of a seething criminal class who seem to have more rights than the good folks.

Never mind huge taxes, a sensationalist press, militant activist groups advocating every idiotic scheme imaginable, speed cameras for revenue generation, a broken government and bad food. The health care system is pretty shanzzy though.

THIS!
A thousand times THIS. OK, so I'm in Scotland (same "state", in the UN sense, as England, but the two are separate to a degree similar to that of US states, but we don't have a federal government really), so our laws are slightly different, but on most areas like security, and self-defense and gun ownership we're completely the same.
In fact, our Government wants control over weapons and knife laws so we can *increase* them (the little sods here like shooting each other and people's toddlers/dogs/cats with hugh-powered CO2 rifles, which aren't illegal, but London doesn't care because it doesn't happen in England). Now I'm a supporter of the SNP (the party running the Scottish Government), hell I'm even an activist.
But I really disagree with their line on self-defence. Verminous scum that I see on the streets every day will break the law, it's what they do. Saying we'll jail you for having a knife (10 years will be the minimum sentence, although that really means 4 with good behaviour) will not mean shiat to these people, because they already face a couple of years for the 25g of smack in their back pocket.
I, on the other hand, who have never been arrested for anything, also face 10 years if I were to be caught carrying a pocket-knife as proof against the gangs of roving scum.
Guns are a little different. I think they should be heavily regulated. If you want one, you'll need vetted, licensed etc. and made to store it in a proper place, and need a fair reason to have one in the first place (and I'll include "collector" and "sportsman" in that); this will actually help drive down the black market in gun sales, meaning less for the vermin, who, because they don't mind breaking the law, are the only people on the streets who have guns, and so act with impunity. Only the armed police can face them, and they're like your SWAT teams, they only get called if someone's already doing something. The regular cops have CS and a baton...
Maybe when we (Scotland) get independence from the cowering wet blankets in London we'll rediscover some balls. This is Scotland after all, the place just 2 years ago a man broke his foot kicking an armed terrorist in the balls. I'd note that the terrorist was actually on fire at the time. So we have some collective balls left. Somewhere...

/obligatory

Wizard Drongo: I, on the other hand, who have never been arrested for anything, also face 10 years if I were to be caught carrying a pocket-knife as proof against the gangs of roving scum.

Good Lord! Does the 10 years have anything to do with it being concealed?

I live in Virginia, here in the USA. I could go buy a handgun right now, and then carry it around openly in public, loaded and chambered, and it would be legal. I could fill my house with enough rifles to arm a small army.

I am very liberal on most issues, but firearms are one thing I am fairly conservative on.

FTFA:
Knives have become a status symbol among some young people and the increase in searching by police officers means some young people dash into shops to buy knives for "instant arming".

Oh noes! They better implement a waiting period on knife sales.

at80eighty: gee. I wonder what sporting utilities does a machete have

I keep one in the back of my Cherokee. I fish a lot and you never know when you might need it to clear brush away from a good spot. Plus, it might come in handy when the zombie apocalypse comes.

Haha, that's really the kid from TFA? I'd probably slice him up with a machete just on principle for looking like such a douchebag. Is the UK really 5 years behind the US on douchebag styling?

thalassatx: Not a lot of baseball bats in England, Subby.

Very true, they call it "Rounders" and it's generally played by girls at school...

Just like American "football" is just rugby with body armour after all...

:P

at80eighty: gee. I wonder what sporting utilities does a machete have

It's not sport, but I trim my rows of raspberry bushes with one. Maybe I'd better start doing it at night before one of my neighbors observes my criminal activity.

Wizard Drongo: Maybe when we (Scotland) get independence from the cowering wet blankets in London we'll rediscover some balls. This is Scotland after all, the place just 2 years ago a man broke his foot kicking an armed terrorist in the balls. I'd note that the terrorist was actually on fire at the time. So we have some collective balls left. Somewhere...

He didn't break his foot kicking an armed, on fire terrorist in the balls. He broke his leg falling over after he was punched by the terrorist (who wasn't armed, but was on fire), and had to be saved by another bystander as he lay on the floor next to a burning car. He also lost a bunch of teeth from where he was punched.

/as Top Gear say "ambitious but rubbish"

Wizard Drongo:

...
I, on the other hand, who have never been arrested for anything, also face 10 years if I were to be caught carrying a pocket-knife as proof against the gangs of roving scum.
...

O.K. Would I get like 75 years for having this?

I mean. Look at all the sharp pointy things that could be used to do evil!

Seriously though. I use a leatherman constantly for work while traveling the globe. Should I fear the pokey if in Scottland on a job?

Someone needs to collectively backhand everyone in the UK.

Just one good smack and a "SMARTEN UP!". I think they would see less embarrassing legislation. I mean honestly, they have to be in some panicky fugue.

The surveillance apparatus is not as massive as you think. The terrifying numbers about CCTV come from a study of single street in London that failed to differentiate between private and state CCTV and then extrapolated wildly. Being filmed in public is not robbing anyone of their privacy. You are not in private walking the public streets. Our data protection laws are also remarkable robust as a counter.

CCTV I don't so much have a problem with. It is when yo combine the digital video with automatic number plate recognition, automatic facial recognition and powerful computer databases. Combine all of that (which the UK is attempting to do at a rapid pace), and you have created a system that can track individual movements across an entire country. Given how the UK government wields massive regulation and such, such a system would terrify me.

Knives and guns are not totally banned. You can own knives and shotguns. You can't wander around in public wielding them wildly. I'm the health and safety bod where I work. The actual regulations are not onerous. I spend at most 10 minutes a day on it. Do people interpret them incorrectly and wildly over react, sure. Then the media goes all 'omg H&S gone mad lolz'.

Nobody argues that one shouldn't be "wielding them wildly." I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing. None of us go around waving these things around for god sakes. Out of all the CCW holders I know, only myself and another have ever pulled our weapons out of the holster (I didn't fire, she shot someone who tried to rape her). Same with knives; everyone in Portland has a Benchmade, Gerber of Spiderco clipped in their pants pocket.

That a citizen who avails himself of the most basic of hand tools (a knife) and the most effective means of self defense (a firearm) would be relegated to being a criminal simply for possessing and carrying these implements disgusts me. That UK society has become so disconnected to the realities of life that they criminalize the good folks from such tools is a reflection of how coddled and clueless that tiny island has become. The government cannot protect you. They cannot round up all the scofflaws.

Bwahahaha. Sorry I shouldn't laugh you are being polite and I appreciate it but really. You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight. The is deemed assault over here. Lots of the UK glorifies violence, football hooliganism, random rumbles in pubs.

How does that work? So you can defend yourself, but you cannot posses the tools necessary to do so effectively? How is a 5' woman supposed to protect herself from 3 large teenagers ready to rape/rob her at knifepoint? She can't even carry as much as a butter knife. Pathetic.

I have always been curious, but how does UK society square that circle? How does a society turn it's nose up at people who want to defend themselves (as if we are, at best, unsophisticated luddites or hero fantasy idiots at worst)?

Scotland too...

sorry

Subby apparently doesn't know about the Trinitarios (new window)

An armed society is a polite society

Which is why Sadr City, Helmand Province, Mogadishu & Detroit are such bastions of social etiquette. No motherf*cker uses the fish knife during the meat course in those places.

opiumpoopy:Any adult in the UK who isn't a criminal or insane can get a licence for a shotgun or hunting rifle, to keep at home. Anyone. It's only handguns you aren't allowed.

We just don't bother, because there aren't millions of burglars out there with guns.

No. Not anyone.
Shotguns are a bit easier if you have the land to shoot on but rifles are a lot tougher as they require a full on Firearms Licence. .22 rimfire is the easiest to get but you still need a reason to own one and the local police decide what you may or may not own.
Full bore much more difficult and automatics not allowed.

There are a lot of burglaries in the UK.

We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Relatively Obscure: In some countries, they just shove one of those into your hand as soon as it pops out of your mom's vag. And those places are AWESOME.

Wait....what?

Go into a school classroom and you are likely to find a metal-edged ruler (straight-edge), a pair of scissors and a hard (ceramic) drinking mug. Maybe even a metal folding chair.

/I used a chair once in choir when some meathead grabbed my hair from behind

snuff3r: adamgreeney: I fail to see how this is a fail.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

Just smile and nod.

Of course, this is just a coping mechanism used to deal with the fact that you have no real argument for gun control.
Back on topic, I don't care if the whole country doesn't want rampant gun ownership, but this incident is a FAIL. If a kid is going to stab or cut someone, he is not going to be carrying a machete around London. He is going to use a smaller knife that he can hide from the cameras and police (not saying Britain is a police state, so STFU before you accuse me of that).
What is wrong with a kid being allowed to buy a machete? It is a tool. If it were a switchblade, I could see the point: It's designed for easy concealment for use in an attack, either on you by you. A machete, though, is designed for use in camping, and for clearing bush. I've used one for basic yardwork.

Why not freak out if a kid buys a hammer or screwdriver? Both of those could be used as a weapon? The first car I owned came with a tire iron; should that be made illegal?
/subby

dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

William the Conqueror is rolling in his grave.

dr-shotgun: Same with knives; everyone in Portland has a Benchmade, Gerber of Spiderco clipped in their pants pocket.

That a citizen who avails himself of the most basic of hand tools (a knife) and the most effective means of self defense (a firearm) would be relegated to being a criminal simply for possessing and carrying these implements disgusts me. That UK society has become so disconnected to the realities of life that they criminalize the good folks from such tools is a reflection of how coddled and clueless that tiny island has become. The government cannot protect you. They cannot round up all the scofflaws.

Yup. This.
If I carry my leatherman tool on my belt I'm breaking the law, so I don't. But I enormously resent being subject to laws made by people with no common sense.

Iron Chef Scottish: An armed society is a polite society

Which is why Sadr City, Helmand Province, Mogadishu & Detroit are such bastions of social etiquette. No motherf*cker uses the fish knife during the meat course in those places.

All of those places would benefit from proper firearms training. Do you disagree?

In a world where animals and humans both exhibit textbook Darwinism, you will find that the same principle applies as you ramp up aggression and defensive capability.

However, your definition of polite may differ from mine. My version is "don't try to rob me while I'm walking down the street, and I won't make it so only your mother and your dentist can identify you afterwards."

binnster: dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

binnster: dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

No, it isn't. Especially Oregon. It's just that we are goddamned stubborn and proud of our constitutional rights, and when threads like this come up, we make sure to proclaim it. I don't know where you're visiting from, but if it's the UK, your history books will explain how we respond to infringement upon our rights, earned or perceived.

dr-shotgun:
It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

Lolwut? In what way was that answer to my question?

What sport do you need a machete for?

binnster: I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

I'd imagine the US equivalent of chavs and hoodies think twice before drunkenly abusing people in concealed carry states.
The point is the (legal) weapons are to stop any violence not create it. You'll see fire extinguishers in public buildings here and the US - doesn't mean office blocks are exploding everywhere!

binnster: dr-shotgun:
It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

Lolwut? In what way was that answer to my question?

Yes, there are manticores, dragons and displacer beasts commonly roaming the streets of Seattle. At night, the townsfolk huddle in terror of the damning wail of the Baen-Sidhe, clutching their enchanted machetes with their ears stoppered in hopes of deflecting the denizens of the night.

Camden? You don't want to see the nameless, eldritch horrors that roam the non-euclidean byways of that cesspool, let me tell you. Only a fool would wander that terrible hellscape unarmed.

Be wary.

Oblio13: It's not sport, but I trim my rows of raspberry bushes with one. Maybe I'd better start doing it at night before one of my neighbors observes my criminal activity.

I think you know exactly what I meant

I never said a machete had no use at all

I always had the understanding that hunting was still allowed in the UK and you could own shotguns/hunting rifles. And from reading the posts here, I see this is true. As long as you can get a shottie, you can defend your home from anyone. I have no problem with people getting checked out first.

Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't (our country was founded on it after all) and do not want any official agency recording who owns guns.

Although, I live in Ohio and have been to many gun shows - there's nothing better than picking up an AK47 and a few hundred rounds of ammo without any hassles.

Iron Chef Scottish: An armed society is a polite society

Which is why Sadr City, Helmand Province, Mogadishu & Detroit are such bastions of social etiquette. No motherf*cker uses the fish knife during the meat course in those places.

He said "polite", not foppish.

I'm willing to bet that the local equivalents of "please", "thank you", and "pardon me" are used quite regularly in those places.

You can be polite without being a fancy lad.

ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Illidan: ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Um. What? Concealed Carry is a state licensure that is good in every other state that allows it in the nation.

Illidan: ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Yes, you're exactly right. It definitely helps to avoid being a marginalized drug dealer if you'd like to get the green light to carry a concealed weapon.

It turns out that in most places, being a regular citizen without a criminal record is just enough to pull it off.

As well it should be.

Gen. Apathy: Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't

why? Does your government routinely break into every home and harass the average citizen at inconvenient times of the day?

hardinparamedic: Concealed Carry...

That's not actually true. A concealed carry permit in Oregon is good in Washington, but not in California, as an example.

i've had one of these since i was 12 years old. a WWII U.S. Marines issue machete. heavy as hell and holds a nice edge.

at80eighty: Gen. Apathy: Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't

why? Does your government routinely break into every home and harass the average citizen at inconvenient times of the day?

They used to, back when it was the Crown.

In contrast to what most Europeans generally think, Americans *DO* have long memories.

DancingJester You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight. The is deemed assault over here. Lots of the UK glorifies violence, football hooliganism, random rumbles in pubs.



Well then that is a problem. Quite simply that is bullshiat thinking.

Should an old man of seventy have to put up his fists to defend himself from a bunch of twenty year old thugs? Or an old woman should just learn how to do kung fu? That is stupid. If you are a law abiding citizen with a licensed handgun and you have taken classes then you are contributing to the betterment of society.

I believe that you Brits are living in a magical imaginary world where you think it is still 1965. You have a worse crime rate in many of your cities than in most US cities and that is something very new because we were always the most violent of societies. You are going to have to change, or soon you will see a big rise in another type of lawlessness, the common folk are going to start importing handguns illegally to protect themselves.

I know because we went through the same thing in some of our large cities in the 1970's. We had strict gun control coupled with extreme leniency for criminals. It lead to an entire culture of vigilantism where the popular movies were flicks like Death Wish.

You will also see the rise in some perhaps quite nasty far right political parties. People will simply not be victims forever.

The kid bought the weapon by claiming he was an orphan...

~Let's fighting love!~

at80eighty: Gen. Apathy: Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't

why? Does your government routinely break into every home and harass the average citizen at inconvenient times of the day?

Well... yes, actually. You will find news articles about police busting into the wrong house on a search warrant, and more than one case in which people have been gunned down in absolute surprise because they reacted the wrong way to a completely unexpected and undeserved intrusion.

ethics-gradient: dr-shotgun: Same with knives; everyone in Portland has a Benchmade, Gerber of Spiderco clipped in their pants pocket.

That a citizen who avails himself of the most basic of hand tools (a knife) and the most effective means of self defense (a firearm) would be relegated to being a criminal simply for possessing and carrying these implements disgusts me. That UK society has become so disconnected to the realities of life that they criminalize the good folks from such tools is a reflection of how coddled and clueless that tiny island has become. The government cannot protect you. They cannot round up all the scofflaws.

Yup. This.
If I carry my leatherman tool on my belt I'm breaking the law, so I don't. But I enormously resent being subject to laws made by people with no common sense.

Bullshiat.

The applicable part of the law is the Criminal Justice Act (1988), Section 139 being the most important.

"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]

So, as long as you have a good reason you can carry any bladed object, for instance you can have a machete if you are doing some garden clearance, and you can carry a folding pocket knife as long as the blade is less than 3 inches, which pretty muich covers Swiss army knives, leathermans etc, though a special exception is made for lock knives, which are considered to be fixed blades for the purposes of the law.

Potentially hell.

/ Les TonTon Macoutes

abdul
All of those places would benefit from proper firearms training. Do you disagree?
Yes. Absolutely. I don't think drug dealers, insurgents and the Taliban need lessons in proper firearms handling. I know it's tough to grasp, but some people really shouldn't be allowed within 50 miles of a gun.

However, your definition of polite may differ from mine. My version is "don't try to rob me while I'm walking down the street, and I won't make it so only your mother and your dentist can identify you afterwards.

So by your definition somebody could take a sh*t in your sandwich, call your mother a tuppeny hooer and tell you your shoes were ghastly, but as long as they didn't try to rob you they'd be 'polite'. Face it. It's a twatty little soundbite that doesn't bear more than 2 seconds rational scrutiny. I just spent a splendid weekend in the Cotswolds, the people were charming, helpful and well mannered. And to think they managed it without thinking I was going to pop a cap in their bottoms....

dittybopper: They used to, back when it was the Crown.

In contrast to what most Europeans generally think, Americans *DO* have long memories.

so you're talking about the past. Splendid


abdul: more than one case in which people have been gunned down in absolute surprise

which qualifies as routinely enough to distrust the govt at large since time immemorial and arm everyone. well I'm sold.

I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared. Carrying a firearm is simply about the recognition that:

- Every society has elements within it who are wiling to initiate the use of violence to take what they want.

- You cannot predict if or when you are going to have to interact with these people (or when you might be around someone who is).

- By the nature of how law enforcement works, the police are not going to be able to protect you when/if that interaction happens. They cannot be on every street corner, and they are minutes away when seconds count.

Every developed nation must ask itself how it contends with these three realities. The reason why I so harp on this idea of allowing citizens (vetted and trained) to carry a concealed weapon is because it strikes me as the only real solution. It speaks to the UK government's attitudes towards it's subjects that they do not trust them enough to allow them to posses any tools for self defense (and I hold American states like California and New York in an even lower regard; they hold this anti-citizen position even though mountains of evidence from the vast majority of American states says that concealed carry is the right thing to do).

I am sure to the average person in the UK, this all sounds positively barbarian. To a society where firearms are vilified and there is talk of "stab proof" knives and carrying a Leatherman would land you in jail for 10 years, the fact that I am typing this with a loaded, chambered Glock in a holster on my hip must sound very odd. The reality is nothing like that - the vast majority of America is relatively free of crime. Part of the reason why though, is because we trust our citizens to have full franchise by possessing the means of self defense.

StaleCoffee: binnster: dr-shotgun:
It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

Lolwut? In what way was that answer to my question?

Yes, there are manticores, dragons and displacer beasts commonly roaming the streets of Seattle. At night, the townsfolk huddle in terror of the damning wail of the Baen-Sidhe, clutching their enchanted machetes with their ears stoppered in hopes of deflecting the denizens of the night.

Camden? You don't want to see the nameless, eldritch horrors that roam the non-euclidean byways of that cesspool, let me tell you. Only a fool would wander that terrible hellscape unarmed.

Be wary.

D&D nerd alert! Or Lovecraftian alert.

/me too
//played the AD&D for years - 1st edition was the best.
///HP Lovecraft is awesome

Why would they freak out? He has a face only a mother could love

binnster: dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

If I didn't have this gun, the king of England could just walk in here anytime he wants and start shoving you around. Do you want that?

Huh? Do you?

binnster Quote 2009-07-01 07:41:36 AM
dr-shotgun:
It must be nice to live in a mythical land of gumdrops and unicorns where nothing terrible ever happens.

Lolwut? In what way was that answer to my question?


On any given day your unlikely to have need of any self defense weapons. But draw that timeline out to the next 10 years, well the probability goes up.

No we dont live in a Mad Max world, we live in the real world where violent men sometimes rob banks with guns, or 7-11s, and sometimes ppl are just fuggin crazy.

This is why I too carry, not all the time. But if I'm going into the city for something I sure as shiat have my handgun.

at80eighty: dittybopper: They used to, back when it was the Crown.

In contrast to what most Europeans generally think, Americans *DO* have long memories.

so you're talking about the past. Splendid



Has human nature changed any in the last, oh, few thousand years?

Gee, you'd think a nation with as long and storied a history as the UK would have some perspective on these things. Guess that's a bad assumption.

Iron Chef Scottish: abdul
All of those places would benefit from proper firearms training. Do you disagree?
Yes. Absolutely. I don't think drug dealers, insurgents and the Taliban need lessons in proper firearms handling. I know it's tough to grasp, but some people really shouldn't be allowed within 50 miles of a gun.

However, your definition of polite may differ from mine. My version is "don't try to rob me while I'm walking down the street, and I won't make it so only your mother and your dentist can identify you afterwards.

So by your definition somebody could take a sh*t in your sandwich, call your mother a tuppeny hooer and tell you your shoes were ghastly, but as long as they didn't try to rob you they'd be 'polite'. Face it. It's a twatty little soundbite that doesn't bear more than 2 seconds rational scrutiny. I just spent a splendid weekend in the Cotswolds, the people were charming, helpful and well mannered. And to think they managed it without thinking I was going to pop a cap in their bottoms....

You're just adorable! I've been insulted, I've had people shame me in public, and my reaction is nil. Believe it or not, I am a Buddhist, but the beauty of Buddhism is that it allows personal interpretation (unlike some other religions I know), and my own personal interpretation follows the laws of the land I live in.

In that particular land, assaulting somebody because of what they say is a horrible offense. It doesn't matter what they say. One of the most frequent examples of this is when a white person refers to a black person in the most offensive way. It is still a violent crime, but you'll be hard pressed to find a black guy who wouldn't beat the tar out of you for that offense. You know, we do have discretion in this country.

I would actively obstruct the police from stopping somebody who was murdering a man who had raped his daughter.

For Christ's sake, are you even aware of how people behave in Australia? They attack people for driving the wrong kind of car over there.

dittybopper: Gee, you'd think a nation with as long and storied a history as the UK would have some perspective on these things. Guess that's a bad assumption.

that answers nothing whatsoever, but ok then - as long as you're happy!

dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

at80eighty:


abdul: more than one case in which people have been gunned down in absolute surprise

which qualifies as routinely enough to distrust the govt at large since time immemorial and arm everyone. well I'm sold.

I'm giving you an example. We have cases of police going on rampages. We've even had postal workers just decide it's time to slaughter people. Of course, that happens less often now, but I assure you it is not because of adaptations to our gun laws.

Iron Chef Scottish:
So by your definition somebody could take a sh*t in your sandwich, call your mother a tuppeny hooer and tell you your shoes were ghastly, but as long as they didn't try to rob you they'd be 'polite'. Face it. It's a twatty little soundbite that doesn't bear more than 2 seconds rational scrutiny. I just spent a splendid weekend in the Cotswolds, the people were charming, helpful and well mannered. And to think they managed it without thinking I was going to pop a cap in their bottoms....

I find it deliciously ironic that those from the very cradle of the English language tend to be the ones who abuse it egregiously.

So by your definition somebody could take a sh*t in your sandwich, call your mother a tuppeny hooer and tell you your shoes were ghastly, but as long as they didn't try to rob you they'd be 'polite'. Face it. It's a twatty little soundbite that doesn't bear more than 2 seconds rational scrutiny. I just spent a splendid weekend in the Cotswolds, the people were charming, helpful and well mannered. And to think they managed it without thinking I was going to pop a cap in their bottoms....

Robert Heinlein, who originally said "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his words with his life," is often taken seriously out of context.

What Heinlein was addressing is the idea that a high disparity in arms between law abiding citizens and criminals is a very bad thing. Criminals will, by definition, defy laws and arm themselves to the teeth. They than begin to prey on the unarmed, law abiding folks with reckless abandonment. The UK is currently experiencing this - gun crimes have risen every year since 2000 (up 5% in 2004 and 4% in 2008). This says nothing about the rise of knife crimes and "knife culture."

Isn't it amusing that, even though you have tougher and tougher restrictions that prevent good citizens from protecting themselves, that your violent crime rises? Funny enough, firearms laws in the US have gotten more and more lax (including the functionally useless but often cited expiration of our "assault weapons" ban). Every time new pro-gun laws are enacted, anti-gun groups shrill about bloodbaths and fantasy scenarios ("With concealed carry laws, fender bender traffic accidents will become shootouts!" "Drunk gun owners will turn domestic arguments into murder!"). Yet, firearm crime has dropped prodigiously in the US over the last few years according to the FBI Uniform Crime Reports.

Shatner's Bassoon: dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

I'll make sure to tell me and everyone I know that has a portable fire extinguisher in their vehicle that they are just being paranoid - if I'm in a car on fire on the freeway I'll just wait for the fire department to help me.

I went to a pistol range once and got into a friendly shooting competition with a local cop (during which I out-shot him in all but speed shooting). We had a nice conversation afterwords.

He was clearly not worried about me at all.

It is the people behind the objects that matter.

Should the cop be concerned if a kid is walking down the street with Machete in hand waving it about? Sure, I would be. Should a kid be able to buy one on-line at age 15 in England? I donno.

Would I be worried if my 15 year old son purchased a machete? No. He is a well balanced kid. We live in the country and own 6 acres of dense wouldlands with lots of brambles. Matter of fact, I think I will ask him to get one for me today. Mine is old and bent. (insert joke here)

abdul: It turns out that in most places, being a regular citizen without a criminal record is just enough to pull it off.

In most places. Again, sometimes you get an officer who has.. ethical difficulties approving the permits. Think pharmacist who won't stock morning-after pills.

at80eighty: Gen. Apathy: Many Americans just have a intense distrust of gov't

why? Does your government routinely break into every home and harass the average citizen at inconvenient times of the day?

No certainly not. And that's an amazing simplification. I was writing in reference to how our country was founded - in rebellion against its current gov't. So we tend to distrust/question authority.

Is it always rational? No. But the sentiment exists. I am sure many Brits feel the same about their own gov't.

Oh and yes, sometimes authorities do break into innocent people's homes, or illegally search and seize property or detain people for no reasons and without charge or access to counsel. But then again, governments have been doing this since the birth of "civilization". What power they can have, they take, it sometimes seems. I don't worry about it. I worry more about criminals than the gov't.

Most of my guns just sit in a safe. Unless I go to the range or out in the country to shoot at targets. Thankfully I have never had to fire at a human being and hopefully never will.

Pinko_Commie: if you're under 18 you can't buy a machete and you can't buy a paring knife, or anything in between. Probably mainly because of your argument, you can stab someone with any sort of knife, and to be honest, if you're wandering around with a 9 inch butcher knife in your pocket, it's not as if you're carrying it on the off chance of doing a little bit of food preparation at the side of the road.

age required to buy knives in most US states is 16, not 18
federal government doesnt mandate knife laws

Lenin: a gopher punch

Is that like a donkey punch?

dr-shotgun: To a society where firearms are vilified and there is talk of "stab proof" knives and carrying a Leatherman would land you in jail for 10 years

It wouldn't - the guy who said that is completely ignorant of the law. A leatherman would be fine due to the length of blade, and even the people who are caught with illegal knives are let off with a caution in 4 out 5 cases. And the maximum term is 4 years, not 10.

Shatner's Bassoon: dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

Not really.

You are more likely to be attacked by a stranger outside your home, just like you are more likely to experience a fire in your own home.

What you are saying is the equivalent of saying "feeling the need to keep a jack and spare tire in your car whenever you go out driving makes you look paranoid".

Flats rarely happen. I've had about two in my adult life while I was out driving. I've been physically attacked once (and needed 13 stitches).

So in my experience, they have roughly the same frequency.

/Never had a fire at home, either, but I keep two fire extinguishers just the same.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

Fair enough. But does my (legally, having gone through multiple background checks and having been trained) carrying a firearm have any negative effect on society?

Every time a state has enacted CCW legislation, the anti-gun side of the debate plays this game. They have little in the way of evidence to substantiate their claims, so they start presenting scenarios to draw a negative picture of gun ownership. Like I said above - thins like minor traffic accidents turning into shootouts. Bar brawls becoming gunfights. Armed citizens running around, acing like cops.

But the reality is that, in every state where CCW legislation gets passed, none of this sort of stuff happens with any regularity. The sort of people willing to walk into the police department, get fingerprinted, show training credentials, pass a background check and fork over $100 are just not the sort of people predisposed to let scenarios like the above happen to them in the first place. I've never been in a fistfight in my life and I sure as hell am not going to get into one if I am carrying. Most people recognize this, so you find CCW holders are (according to statistics from Florida which are the best kept records) something like 40X more law abiding than the average citizen. In fact, Florida found that CCW holders have a lower per-capita crime rate than sworn police officers.

dagman ".....wouldlands..."

I think dittybopper might find that all deliciously egregious and sh*t, but in an ironic way.

The staggering twattishness of the ill-educated is never more apparent than in UK threads! Bless you all!

You will NOT get 10 years for carrying a pocket knife unless you use it maliciously! I got stopped in Victoria station with a tool kit containing a stanley and spare blades and my Swiss Army knife in my pocket. The coppers went through everything and didn't even bat an eyelid because I was on my way to work.

Maximum sentence is NOT the same as a mandatory sentence. It's like you lot think Judge Dredd-style sentencing is in use here!

mgf:

I'll make sure to tell me and everyone I know that has a portable fire extinguisher in their vehicle that they are just being paranoid - if I'm in a car on fire on the freeway I'll just wait for the fire department to help me.

Yes, please do that. Because it's obvious that when I said that it's fair enough to keep a fire extinguisher next to an oven that that was the only hot and flammable environment where I would consider it fair enough, otherwise I would have written an exhaustive list no matter how long it took. I'm just that pedantic.

pat-246:
age required to buy knives in most US states is 16, not 18
federal government doesnt mandate knife laws

Except for that stupid Switchblade law, but even that isn't a ban on possession, just on interstate commerce of them (which is effectively a ban).

Luckily, even in NYS you can own a switchblade or gravity knife, and you can carry it on your person if you are actively engaged in fishing, hunting, or trapping. Problem is actually getting them.

abdul: We have cases of police going on rampages. We've even had postal workers just decide it's time to slaughter people.

I know , I've heard of those cases - but having lived in a few gun free societies I just guess it's a perspective thing and I try to wonder if the incidents in the larger perspective are worth the tradeoff of having the risk of arming everyone

Gen. Apathy: uthorities do break into innocent people's homes, or illegally search and seize property or detain people for no reasons and without charge or access to counsel.

So how does a firearm help in that case?

dittybopper:
What you are saying is the equivalent of saying "feeling the need to keep a jack and spare tire in your car whenever you go out driving makes you look paranoid".

Flats rarely happen. I've had about two in my adult life while I was out driving. I've been physically attacked once (and needed 13 stitches).

Which kind of goes back to binnster's original question of is the US really that dangerous that you need to carry a gun everywhere. Apparently it is. Fair enough.

Iron Chef Scottish: dagman ".....wouldlands..."

I think dittybopper might find that all deliciously egregious and sh*t, but in an ironic way.

Yeah... was just putting that out there for a bite. (not really)

It's early and my brain doesn't function so well in the morning.

Maybe I should be outlawed in England.

It wouldn't - the guy who said that is completely ignorant of the law. A leatherman would be fine due to the length of blade, and even the people who are caught with illegal knives are let off with a caution in 4 out 5 cases. And the maximum term is 4 years, not 10.

I read your law, it is pathetic.

1- Leathermans have locking blades. In fact, any quality folding knife has a locking blade so as to insure it doesn't close during use and fillet your fingers.

2- Who defines "good reason?" Any time a law hinges on something as ill defined as that, I have to wonder how it is going to be enforced. As a US citizen, walking down a London street with my 2.5" blade Leatherman Skeletool (made here in Portland I might add), do I have "good reason" to own such a tool? I use it every day for various tasks, so I think I have good reason. Will a bobby think I do? Is stabbing the chav trying to rob me a "good reason?"

The Envoy Absolutely right. Coupled to the fact that the US locks up more people than anywhere else in the world (7 million in prison, on parole or probation), the whole 'we sh*t freedom and piss liberty' line starts to lodge in the craw somewhat.
I know, I know, they're black. Just like the fellows skewing all those figures for gun crime. The elephant in the room for US Farkers in any gun thread.

Iron Chef Scottish: dagman ".....wouldlands..."

I think dittybopper might find that all deliciously egregious and sh*t, but in an ironic way.

Spelling errors != Excessive use of profanity and regional slang.

The first is an honest mistake. Everyone makes them from time to time, and of course they can be enhanced by spellcheck errors (like this one seems to be). Certainly, there is a line between occasional errors and the consistent misspellings of the semi-literate, but I try not to be a spelling Nazi because I make mistakes myself from time to time.

The second is merely inflammatory and tends to obscure the meaning except for those reasonably familiar with whatever patois you happen to be using. Also, it reflects poorly on your argument that you need to resort to such constructs.

Although, I must admit, it does provide some hilarity if I mentally read it using that horrid Cockney accent that Dick van Dyke used in "Mary Poppins".

Illidan: abdul: It turns out that in most places, being a regular citizen without a criminal record is just enough to pull it off.

In most places. Again, sometimes you get an officer who has.. ethical difficulties approving the permits. Think pharmacist who won't stock morning-after pills.

To be perfectly honest with you, I'm happy with that problem, because you can always find another avenue. You will rarely find a unified front in the police community when it comes to gun laws, whereas you can simply walk to the next pharmacy for your contraception. The beauty of this is that the pharmacist gets to have his illusion of religious righteousness, and thereby freedom of religion, but you still get what you want.

You will never find a state in this country where you can't get a concealed carry permit if you actually try to do it, and you don't have a criminal record. With the exception of New York City and parts of California, you will always succeed if you actually research and take the time to try.

at80eighty: What is the risk of arming everyone? As long as Americans take the time out of their drive-thru visits and yoga lessons to teach their children about firearms, there is no significant danger in having ubiquitous firearms. If you read through the history of the Oregon Trail, you don't find a lot of cases of children doing stupid things and getting themselves killed, because the parents actually paid attention to them! Believe it or not, it is the parents' responsibility to take care of their children, even in 21st century America. When kids find their dad's gun and shoot their little brother, my major regret is always that the child probably didn't understand that he was holding a potentially fatal weapon. Nobody ever comes back to ask the kid what he thought he was doing, they always blame it on the parents, and it's because they SHOULD blame it on the parents.

Iron Chef Scottish: The Envoy Absolutely right. Coupled to the fact that the US locks up more people than anywhere else in the world (7 million in prison, on parole or probation), the whole 'we sh*t freedom and piss liberty' line starts to lodge in the craw somewhat.
I know, I know, they're black. Just like the fellows skewing all those figures for gun crime. The elephant in the room for US Farkers in any gun thread.

It's not an elephant in the room when I'm in the thread: I make that point quite plainly, and I back it up with facts and figures direct from what are generally considered solid sources (like the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention). I think it should be openly discussed, because if it isn't recognized, the problem won't be solved.

The issue with having an open discussion about it is that race is a touchy subject. Hopefully, one side effect of the Obama presidency is that it will become less touchy, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

adamgreeney: Um, i don't sell knives to kids under 18 either subby. Why is that bad? I'd rather not have their parents come back and stab me with it, and I don't want to be liable for what they do.

I fail to see how this is a fail.

Your profile begs to differ:

I own a small business where i sell swords and knives to any and all.

/Approves

abdul: When kids find their dad's gun and shoot their little brother, my major regret is always that the child probably didn't understand that he was holding a potentially fatal weapon.

I'm hard pressed to believe that kids, esp of today's generation are not aware that guns have serious consequences. when a kid goes pew pew pew they know what a gun does - they see it in the media. they know.

dr-shotgun: I am sure to the average person in the UK, this all sounds positively barbarian.

Yes it does.

To a society where firearms are vilified

I wouldn't say they are vilified, we just don't really care about them, they are not part of our society or culture. Never really had them, don't see the need for every Tom, Dick and Harry to be armed.

and there is talk of "stab proof" knives and carrying a Leatherman would land you in jail for 10 years

I don't see an issue with "stab proof" knives. I would say that 99.99% of knife usage is for cutting and not for stabbing, so there is no real reason for kitchen knives and the like to have a pointy end, other than that's the shape that knives traditionally are (because there historically was a need to use them for stabbing things, these days, not so much). I've already covered the fallacy that carrying a Leatherman will land you inside a couple of posts up.

the fact that I am typing this with a loaded, chambered Glock in a holster on my hip must sound very odd.

Very.

The reality is nothing like that - the vast majority of America is relatively free of crime.

So free of crime that you find yourself having to carry 24/7? Is the area you live in that bad that you feel you have to wear your gun even while sat (I'm assuming) in your own home?

Thee vast majority of the UK is also free from crime. Violent crime is generally an urban issue.

People are going to be violent regardless of the tools they use, guns, knives, rocks or fists.

Eudeyrn: instead of something easy like 7/7/77.

One of my old friends from college has this birthdate. It's hilarious because some of the places with the fancy-schmancy computer systems will actually *reject* his real birthday as being fake to prevent cashiers from doing this.

On another note, 8/8/88 will be legal for everything pretty soon. Anyone else feel old yet?

dittybopper: Iron Chef Scottish: dagman ".....wouldlands..."

I think dittybopper might find that all deliciously egregious and sh*t, but in an ironic way.

Spelling errors != Excessive use of profanity and regional slang.

The first is an honest mistake. Everyone makes them from time to time, and of course they can be enhanced by spellcheck errors (like this one seems to be). Certainly, there is a line between occasional errors and the consistent misspellings of the semi-literate, but I try not to be a spelling Nazi because I make mistakes myself from time to time.

The second is merely inflammatory and tends to obscure the meaning except for those reasonably familiar with whatever patois you happen to be using. Also, it reflects poorly on your argument that you need to resort to such constructs.

Although, I must admit, it does provide some hilarity if I mentally read it using that horrid Cockney accent that Dick van Dyke used in "Mary Poppins".

WOW.

Carry on.

(umm.. checks "Carry" 'cuz it consists of 5 letters)
/Paranoid now. Thanks. Where's my machete?

DancingJester: You are perfectly entitled to defend yourself, you just have to do it with fists and or whatever is to hand, you can't be in public and prepared for a fight.

As a wiser muppet than I once said:

THAT is why you fail.

Some people apparently think the US is so dangerous you can't walk around without being killed.

It's just not true, what you're seeing in this thread is a collection of examples, most of them extreme, but none of them unrealistic.

I walk around unarmed all the time, and I have never been attacked by anybody.

What those of us who want our firearm rights are saying is that you never know if you will be attacked.

Most places in the US are very safe, probably safer than wherever you hail from. Places like Detroit get a bad rap, but I could write two books on the causes of that without ever touching on gun laws.

You are simplifying it to an absurd level. There is no way to quantify a given region's violence level and compare it to any other region, without also taking into account the situation those people live in. Take Detroit, which is literally a failing city. Within the last 10 years, the city has collapsed within itself, and it is as close to a modern dystopia as you can get. Yes, Detroit is absolutely a worst-case scenario in America, but it is a very small part of the country.

Those of you in the UK appear to forget how large the United States is. The UK has about .026% the land area of the US, or 244,820 sq km versus 9,161,923 sq km. Does that kind of land area even register to British citizens nowadays? It is MASSIVE compared to your tiny island. Our population is many times larger.

Even with that, neither of our countries is anywhere close to being as violent as Brazil. Why does nobody ever remember Brazil? Has anybody even glanced at violence statistics in that country? It's absolutely horrifying. I am under the impression that if I simply set foot in Sao Paulo I will be immediately raped 17 times, and murdered at least twice, despite that being strictly impossible.

So, in the UK, I take it there aren't that many fantasy nerds that adorn their walls with those crazy "decorative" knives and swords.

Shatner's Bassoon: dittybopper:
What you are saying is the equivalent of saying "feeling the need to keep a jack and spare tire in your car whenever you go out driving makes you look paranoid".

Flats rarely happen. I've had about two in my adult life while I was out driving. I've been physically attacked once (and needed 13 stitches).

Which kind of goes back to binnster's original question of is the US really that dangerous that you need to carry a gun everywhere. Apparently it is. Fair enough.

Depends on where you go.

Most places in the US have lower crime than you would find in the UK, with the exception of homicide. We have fewer assaults, fewer burglaries, fewer car thefts.

Even with homicide, though, unless you are in a bad part of a major city, your risk of being killed isn't really greater than in the UK, from any practical standpoint.

dittybopper: Although, I must admit, it does provide some hilarity if I mentally read it using that horrid Cockney accent that Dick van Dyke used in "Mary Poppins".

Oh HELL no! That was not a Cockney accent, in the same way that Tommy Lee Jones' accent in Blown Away was not Irish! That was a terrible attempt at an accent but it wasn't even close! Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels is proper Cockney.

Shatner's Bassoon: dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

FWIW, spontaneous combustion happens a lot less than armed robbery, rape, or murder.

The rate of knife crime and gun crime in the UK is out of control but the high risk group is teenagers. It's very rare for someone to break into a house armed, for example (the recent one was a neighbour feud). So not allowing one to buy a machete is fine by me.

Link (new window)

Not that it matters to the discussion in anyway, but the only time I've ever had a knofe pulled on me was in the UK.

Bonus:it was underneath a CCTV camera so even if the cops were watching the camera at the time they couldn't see it.

Oh. And binnster. The US is perfectly safe.Just like say..london you have certain places to be more warry in but over all its just fine.

Ummm SUBBY .. how is this FAIL?
Why in the name of common sense (any common sense) would a 15 year old need a machete???

Kids have near (if not completely) ZERO impulse control...AANNNDDD they should be able to have lethal weapons???? WTF

dagman: I went to a pistol range once and got into a friendly shooting competition with a local cop (during which I out-shot him in all but speed shooting). We had a nice conversation afterwords.

He was clearly not worried about me at all.

It is the people behind the objects that matter.

Should the cop be concerned if a kid is walking down the street with Machete in hand waving it about? Sure, I would be. Should a kid be able to buy one on-line at age 15 in England? I donno.

Would I be worried if my 15 year old son purchased a machete? No. He is a well balanced kid. We live in the country and own 6 acres of dense wouldlands with lots of brambles. Matter of fact, I think I will ask him to get one for me today. Mine is old and bent. (insert joke here)

A chance for irony, you say?

hardinparamedic: Illidan: ethics-gradient: We have no right to own guns here. It's a privilege the police might grant if they like the look of you.

Ahh. So it's like the jurisdictions that TECHNICALLY allow concealed weapons here in the US - you have to get the signature of a local policeman. Depending on the location, he's cool about it or he just automatically rejects everyone but his buddies and rich guys who can pull strings.

Um. What? Concealed Carry is a state licensure that is good in every other state that allows it in the nation.

That's not quite accurate.

at80eighty: abdul: We have cases of police going on rampages. We've even had postal workers just decide it's time to slaughter people.

I know , I've heard of those cases - but having lived in a few gun free societies I just guess it's a perspective thing and I try to wonder if the incidents in the larger perspective are worth the tradeoff of having the risk of arming everyone

Gen. Apathy: uthorities do break into innocent people's homes, or illegally search and seize property or detain people for no reasons and without charge or access to counsel.

So how does a firearm help in that case?

It probably will get you killed if the police decide to come into your home. So I agree with you. It won't help individuals that much, but as a society, it does impact the way that the gov't interacts with you.

I will refer you to a bit of Solzhenitsyn I love:

"At what exact point should one resist? When one's belt is taken away? When one is ordered to face into a corner? When one crosses the threshold of one's home?...

And how we burned in the camps thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during the periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had had understood that they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of a half dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those Bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with its one lonely chauffeur - what if it had been driven of or its tires spiked? The Organs would very quickly had suffered a shortage of officers and transport and notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
If....If.... We didn't love freedom enough.

transcribed from one of my favorite books:
The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, Harper & Row Publishers, 1973, pg 13


Not to say that the USA is like the USSR under Stalin but the awareness that the citizenry is armed can give an oppressive regime pause in its constant grab for power over its people. I don't imagine myself shooting anyone of authority that comes to my home and asks for me, but I do wish to retain the right to defend my home in the best way possible. I do not carry a gun anywhere, like I said they stay in a safe. But I do not have a concern for those who choose to legally carry one. Guns are part of our culture. They are just tools/objects. It's the person using it I'm concerned with.

dagman:
WOW.

Carry on.

(umm.. checks "Carry" 'cuz it consists of 5 letters)
/Paranoid now. Thanks. Where's my machete?

You missed the point. I was saying that I don't harp on the occasional spelling error because we all make mistakes.

I was harping on the "bloody 'ell guv'nah twattish car boot sh*t f*ck lemon curry? ole-biscuit barrel shav tuppeny hooer bobs your uncle¹ queen mum's bum chum c*nt bog-arsed" slang that seems to come from Her Majesty's subjects in what is an international forum.

1. He needed the money, I guess.

sorry went a little crazy with the italics tag

:)

This is a farking ridiculous argument to have in the first place.

No, the US is not all that dangerous. No, I'm not likely to be robbed walking down the street in the next week. But as somebody said earlier, extend the timeline to the next 10 years, and the probability goes up. The reason people carry isn't because they expect it every time they walk outside, it's because they acknowledge the possibility that someday, something might happen, and they just want to be prepared.

I live in PA in a city where people will hold the door if they see you coming, strangers say hello and talk about the weather, you can walk at night and not be afraid, and your neighbor will probably let you borrow his tools if you ask. But gun ownership, as well as concealed carry, is widespread. Not because of the imminent dangers of a Mad Max world (duh), but because around here, people understand that the world isn't cupcakes and cinnamon bun farts, and there will eventually come a time where you'll have to defend yourself. If not, that's great. But better to have and not need than need and not have.

And even in the bad parts of town, confrontations are rare. Nobody busts into a home where there's a high probability of a loaded firearm in the vicinity. Even though the area is mixed ethnicity, mixed classes, and mixed mindsets.

I carry when I'm biking in a remote area as defense against bears. I carry when I drive on long trips. I carry 75% of the time (when appropriate) because someday, I might need it.

Argue either side all you want. There are very few people, when given the choice between being raped/beaten or given the ability to defend themselves, would choose to go unarmed. Simple fact of life. Gun control proponents argue that it's not necessary to be armed, but constantly ignore the reality that bad things do happen sometimes.

Remember when you were a teenage boy and how cool swords were. Well, that's a sword you can pick up for
/what?

Gen. Apathy:
Not to say that the USA is like the USSR under Stalin but the awareness that the citizenry is armed can give an oppressive regime pause in its constant grab for power over its people. I don't imagine myself shooting anyone of authority that comes to my home and asks for me, but I do wish to retain the right to defend my home in the best way possible.

You don't have to be able to actually *WIN*, you just have to make it so expensive that they won't try it in the first place.

cmoreland: Remember when you were a teenage boy and how cool swords were.

Swords are *ALWAYS* cool. At least, real ones are.

When my dad passes, I'm going to snag the kopis he made.

cmoreland: Remember when you were a teenage boy and how cool swords were. Well, that's a sword you can pick up for...
/what?

oops, let's continue that:

...$20 at Wally World. He'll probably just hang it on his wall pretending he knows how to use it, swing it around a few time making that whipping noise, stare at himself in the mirror with it and end up getting bored or getting grounded for accidentally nicking a piece of furniture pretending to be some sort of cool sword wielding hero or knight and then quickly lose interest as girls begin to come into his life. *TAKES DEEP BREATH*

/what?

i also made a few errors in my transcription. sorry all. not a copy paste job but I actually own books and mark passages I find meaningful. Yes, I'm a geek...

Well, over here in the States there is this gang comprised mostly of illegal aliens called the MS-13. The machete is their traditional murder weapon. You can imagine what death by machete can be like.

Especially if the guy is really good. If the user is good, see, I mean if the blade is reeeally sharp, he can barrel that baby in so deep... oh you oughta see it sometime. It's a sight. A big knife like a machete... varrrooom! Its blood splatter... frying chickens in the barnyard!

The Envoy: dittybopper: Although, I must admit, it does provide some hilarity if I mentally read it using that horrid Cockney accent that Dick van Dyke used in "Mary Poppins".

Oh HELL no! That was not a Cockney accent, in the same way that Tommy Lee Jones' accent in Blown Away was not Irish! That was a terrible attempt at an accent but it wasn't even close! Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels is proper Cockney.

That's why I prefaced it with the word "horrid".

Knives are a big problem in urban UK. A comedian did a routine a few years ago regarding giving everyone under 20 free tasers. Then they can have all the tasering fun they like without having to resort to knives.

Submitter has never been to Liverpool.

dittybopper: cmoreland: Remember when you were a teenage boy and how cool swords were.

Swords are *ALWAYS* cool. At least, real ones are.

When my dad passes, I'm going to snag the kopis he made.

/still has sword collection
//wife won't let me hang them on the wall :(
///something about our kids getting hold of them or something...pfft as if!

Kalashinator: Shatner's Bassoon: dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

FWIW, spontaneous combustion happens a lot less than armed robbery, rape, or murder.

Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported.

Why do the French get so much shiat when it's the British who have become such complete panty-waists? Did the French not join us in being the only other Western Nation to fight back against pirates whereas the British (rule, Britannia/ Britannia rule the waves) surrendered to Iranians in dingies?

abdul:
You will never find a state in this country where you can't get a concealed carry permit if you actually try to do it, and you don't have a criminal record. With the exception of New York City and parts of California, you will always succeed if you actually research and take the time to try.

I found two! Illinois and Wisconsin ban CCW entirely.

Do I get a prize?

dittybopper: Kalashinator: Shatner's Bassoon: dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

FWIW, spontaneous combustion happens a lot less than armed robbery, rape, or murder.

Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported.

I don't carry my fire extinguisher with me because I don't expect to put out an oven fire while I'm walking to the post office.

cmoreland: dittybopper: cmoreland: Remember when you were a teenage boy and how cool swords were.

Swords are *ALWAYS* cool. At least, real ones are.

When my dad passes, I'm going to snag the kopis he made.

/still has sword collection
//wife won't let me hang them on the wall :(
///something about our kids getting hold of them or something...pfft as if!

I have this hanging on my wall:



I don't have a wide shot of it, but here's a close-up of the lock area and one of the hangers:



We've got a kid at home. Not an issue. And yes, it's fully functional. Here I am shooting it at the Southern Vermont Primitive Biathlon back this last Winter:

Buy lots of guns and use them often

Mom gave me my own safety scissors just the other day! 15 more years and I can get my very own pocket knife! W00t!

Seriously though, I have no issue with having age restriction laws when it comes to large, sharp, potentially stabby objects.

If you've ever been to Central America, you'd know that most people mow their laws with really sharp machetes. Kinda cool to watch. (random interjection)

misuse of FAIL tag

its not like this kid lives in some central american jungle
baseball bats have a use

alpentalrules: Buy lots of guns and use them often

And start when you are really young:



/Weened on Black Powder, and I got patch lube runnin' through my veins

Kalashinator: abdul:
You will never find a state in this country where you can't get a concealed carry permit if you actually try to do it, and you don't have a criminal record. With the exception of New York City and parts of California, you will always succeed if you actually research and take the time to try.

I found two! Illinois and Wisconsin ban CCW entirely.

Do I get a prize?

You got me there, I did not know that. How about club sandwich membership as a prize? How do you feel about frilly toothpicks? I'm for 'em.

Gen. Apathy: "At what exact point should one resist? When one's belt is taken away? When one is ordered to face into a corner? When one crosses the threshold of one's home?...

And how we burned in the camps thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during the periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had had understood that they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of a half dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those Bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with its one lonely chauffeur - what if it had been driven of or its tires spiked? The Organs would very quickly had suffered a shortage of officers and transport and notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
If....If.... We didn't love freedom enough.

transcribed from one of my favorite books:
The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn, Harper & Row Publishers, 1973, pg 13

This is awesome. Thanks for posting it.

do Britons know how many cheap junky knives you can buy online for a song? the kind with plastic dragon hafts or maybe skulls? They can probably leave a bruise if you were to press hard enough with them.

Farkwaddle:
Seriously though, I have no issue with having age restriction laws when it comes to large, sharp, potentially stabby objects.


Why?



/Son trying out one of his birthday presents this year. He's five.

dittybopper: You don't have to be able to actually *WIN*, you just have to make it so expensive that they won't try it in the first place.

I was trying to talk about this with you, probably a couple of months back. I was mulling it over when I saw the Honduras thing kick off. I don't know if it is just an outside perspective but the military seemed to seize power pretty much over night, and the people of Honduras are pretty well armed.

It looks like the military had received tacit support from the judiciary.

Anyway does that change the dynamic of too expensive to try? If the military have seized the apparatus of government wouldn't the people need to win to seize it back? Or do the people just start burning the place to the ground? What is your take on it all?

dittybopper: That's why I prefaced it with the word "horrid".

Yeah, sorry about that. I re-read it and saw my mistake. On first reading I thought you were saying that the Cockney accent was generally horrid, as displayed by DvD, not that his rendition of it was horrid.

However, I think we need to clearly separate the two. Can we agree to call DvD's accent something more fitting like "dog flatulence" and leave Cockney out of it?

abdul:
This is awesome. Thanks for posting it.

Read the whole book.

dittybopper: Kalashinator: Shatner's Bassoon: dr-shotgun:
See, that is the thing - carrying a firearm is not about being scared any more than keeping a fire extinguisher in the kitchen is about being scared.

Keeping a fire extinguisher next to an oven is fair enough. It's when you feel the need to carry a fire extinguisher with you every time you go out the front door that you look a bit paranoid.

FWIW, spontaneous combustion happens a lot less than armed robbery, rape, or murder.

Dozens of people spontaneously combust each year. It's just not really widely reported.

DOZENS! Hope Obama's including personal-sized fire extinguishers in his national health care plan!

Thankfully I haven't randomly erupted into a nerdy fireball, but I have been robbed at knife- and gun-point. Happened twice, might happen again.

dittybopper: cmoreland: dittybopper: cmoreland: Remember when you were a teenage boy and how cool swords were.

Swords are *ALWAYS* cool. At least, real ones are.

When my dad passes, I'm going to snag the kopis he made.

/still has sword collection
//wife won't let me hang them on the wall :(
///something about our kids getting hold of them or something...pfft as if!

I have this hanging on my wall:



I don't have a wide shot of it, but here's a close-up of the lock area and one of the hangers:



We've got a kid at home. Not an issue. And yes, it's fully functional. Here I am shooting it at the Southern Vermont Primitive Biathlon back this last Winter:

I'm no gun expert, but that right there looks verra nice! Great condition too :)

dittybopper: dagman:
WOW.

Carry on.

(umm.. checks "Carry" 'cuz it consists of 5 letters)
/Paranoid now. Thanks. Where's my machete?

You missed the point. I was saying that I don't harp on the occasional spelling error because we all make mistakes.

I was harping on the "bloody 'ell guv'nah twattish car boot sh*t f*ck lemon curry? ole-biscuit barrel shav tuppeny hooer bobs your uncle1 queen mum's bum chum c*nt bog-arsed" slang that seems to come from Her Majesty's subjects in what is an international forum.

1. He needed the money, I guess.

Actually, I did get your point originally. I was just shocked that I didn't receive more of a deserved scewering from John Q Farker.

So thank you. I enjoyed your response this time as well.

/entertained

dittybopper: Farkwaddle:
Seriously though, I have no issue with having age restriction laws when it comes to large, sharp, potentially stabby objects.


Why?



/Son trying out one of his birthday presents this year. He's five.

I agree with Ditty. If you are old enough to pick something up and explore it you are old enough to learn how to use it properly and safely. Drawing arbitrary lines and pretending there are magical ages of compentency only engenders unhealthy attitudes, even fear, of useful tools.

dittybopper: abdul:
This is awesome. Thanks for posting it.

Read the whole book.

I definitely will.

I don't believe you can say it better than Solzhenitsyn, in that the right to bear arms comes to us as a defense against real-life tyranny, wherever we experience it.

What date can someone pin down where American government became completely stable and rational, where complete breakdown was not at some point a future consideration?

I stepped on a nail as a child. It went right through my foot. I want houses to be only glued together from now on.

abdul: Do I get a prize?

You got me there, I did not know that. How about club sandwich membership as a prize? How do you feel about frilly toothpicks? I'm for 'em.

Made me think of Homer out golfing with Mr. Burns.

Useful information (new window)

You'll think twice when you die from the fumes, smart guy.

Kalashinator: abdul: Do I get a prize?

You got me there, I did not know that. How about club sandwich membership as a prize? How do you feel about frilly toothpicks? I'm for 'em.

Made me think of Homer out golfing with Mr. Burns.

Useful information (new window)

D'oh! It's totally a Mitch Hedberg joke. I like the link, though.

gshepnyc:
I agree with Ditty. If you are old enough to pick something up and explore it you are old enough to learn how to use it properly and safely.

Which supports the idea of restricting purchase of certain things based on age. Let the child's parents decide when the kid is old enough to use something responsibly. If you think your 13 year old is mature enough to have a machete, buy one for him.

Haggis is scarier than a machete.

/Got a machete for Christmas

abdul: Our population is many times larger.

I originate from a country of a billion.
gun free society.
lower crime.
Which is why I dont buy the arguments

Ummm, I bought like 200 knives from the home shopping network without any hassle. And I'm not talking about kitchen knives. I'm talking swords, knives so big they were basically swords, combat knives, etc. It came in a big box, no ID required, nada. I still have most of the knives, gave some away as gifts but still have plenty if I ever wanted to go on a stabbing/slashing spree.

Crap.

/Has carried a pocket knife from age 5 on (Benchmade at the moment).
//Machete at 9
///evil I guess

at80eighty: abdul: Our population is many times larger.

I originate from a country of a billion.
gun free society.
lower crime.
Which is why I dont buy the arguments

No matter which country of a billion it is, Buddhism has existed there for at least a thousand years, and in my opinion, that's your answer. :)

Based only on the pictures in your profile, I would guess you are from India rather than China. In the case of China, I wouldn't exactly say they've been without their gun-related problems, occasionally to the tune of millions of deaths.

lukelightning: gshepnyc:
I agree with Ditty. If you are old enough to pick something up and explore it you are old enough to learn how to use it properly and safely.

Which supports the idea of restricting purchase of certain things based on age. Let the child's parents decide when the kid is old enough to use something responsibly. If you think your 13 year old is mature enough to have a machete, buy one for him.

But it's for the parents to decide, family by family and kid by kid. So, not really the same thing as having an age restriction. I'm from the boonies but I live in NYC. I wouldn't trust the average 15 year old in NYC with a rifle because they are raised with a constant barrage of anti-gun messages and an overall fear of the things. An average 15 year old where I grew up has been out hunting and knows how to treat guns with the proper care and respect.

Gen. Apathy: i also made a few errors in my transcription.

good read regardless - thanks :)

frankencj: Crap.

/Has carried a pocket knife from age 5 on (Benchmade at the moment).
//Machete at 9
///evil I guess

Well, yes. Yes you are. You should turn yourself in for re-education at once.

/Got my first pocketknife from my grandpa after seeing someone else cut themselves accidentally. Was time to learn how to use one so I didn't grow up with a needless fear of them.

abdul: No matter which country of a billion it is, Buddhism has existed there for at least a thousand years, and in my opinion, that's your answer. :)

I laughed :D

An armed society is a polite society.

In the UK (population c. 60.5m) there were 765 reported incidents of murder for 2005-6 (Home Office, undated) - a rate of about 1.1 per 100,000.

In the US (population c. 298.5m) there were an estimated 16,137 homicides in 2004 (FBI, 2006a) - a rate of about 5.4 per 100,000

This data seems to say that India is not exactly a saint in the homicide rate category either, though. It doesn't even show China, or even Brazil, which I find interesting and/or dubious.

gshepnyc: dittybopper: Farkwaddle:
Seriously though, I have no issue with having age restriction laws when it comes to large, sharp, potentially stabby objects.


Why?



/Son trying out one of his birthday presents this year. He's five.

I agree with Ditty. If you are old enough to pick something up and explore it you are old enough to learn how to use it properly and safely. Drawing arbitrary lines and pretending there are magical ages of compentency only engenders unhealthy attitudes, even fear, of useful tools.

Let me clarify:
I have no problems with having age restrictions regarding the purchase of said potentially stabby objects. I have absolutely no issue with the parents buying them for their kids and teaching them how to safely use one. I mean, if you're going camping (say for instance Boy Scouts), you're going to need a knife. But that doesn't mean little Timmy should go out and buy the biggest baddest machete and start slinging it around like a kung fu actor he sees on tv. There should be some kind of parental responsibility involved through the whole process and IMO the knife should be suitable for its intended purpose. You don't need a Crocodile Dundee knife for over-night or weekend camping trips.

The Institute is supported by Ann Oakes-Odger, founder of KnifeCrimes.org, whose son Westley, 27, died in 2005 when he was stabbed in the neck in an unprovoked attack at a cash machine.

"As a mother who knows the pain of losing a child, if one life was saved by a ban on the internet sale of knives, it would be worthwhile," she said. This is the most stupid farking crap I have ever read.

Am sorry, but really? What about painkillers? or cars? or airplanes? or pens and pencils? Heck, the kid that got impaled on the fence a few months back? What about we remove fences now, too?

People die in freak accidents, supposed freak accidents, general accidents, and all kinds of crap. We shouldn't all suffer for one person.

/reminded of "Final Destination".
// not trying to troll either, but the article pissed me off.

gshepnyc:
But it's for the parents to decide, family by family and kid by kid.

Exactly. So if you restrict purchases to age 18 or whatever, a kid can have a machete or claymore or bowie knife or sword-chuks, but (in theory) only with permission of his parents. It's not a perfect solution (kids will find a way to get knives regardless), but it's better than "nobody under 18 can even touch a knife" or whatever. Of course, in my magical unicorn gumdrop land, parents all take responsibility for their kids' actions and are actually involved in their lives...

DancingJester: dittybopper: You don't have to be able to actually *WIN*, you just have to make it so expensive that they won't try it in the first place.

I was trying to talk about this with you, probably a couple of months back. I was mulling it over when I saw the Honduras thing kick off. I don't know if it is just an outside perspective but the military seemed to seize power pretty much over night, and the people of Honduras are pretty well armed.

It looks like the military had received tacit support from the judiciary.

Anyway does that change the dynamic of too expensive to try? If the military have seized the apparatus of government wouldn't the people need to win to seize it back? Or do the people just start burning the place to the ground? What is your take on it all?

We are talking apples and oranges here: The Honduras coup is a change in the government, which may or may not portend more evil things to come. I haven't actually formed an opinion on it, because unlike an outright military takeover, this one seems to be a bit more, well, morally ambiguous.

I think the problem in Honduras has more to do with the fact that there wasn't a clear impeachment process. Had a sitting American president attempted to do what Zelaya did, Congress would have impeached and removed him faster than you can recite the Twenty Second Amendment of the United States.

Zelaya was *CLEARLY* trying to usurp power that wasn't his, and was acting against the Honduran Constitution, as ruled by the Honduran Supreme Court, the Honduran Attorney General, and the National Congress of Honduras.

Having said that, the Honduran legislature should have removed him, not the military. So like I said, I'm ambivalent about it.

Police and/or military clashes against rioters really aren't comparable to real oppression.

Oh, and Hondurans really aren't as armed as you might think: Estimates are that there are 500,000 guns in a population of around 7 million, or one gun for every 14 people. If the 80/20 rule holds true (80% of guns are owned by 20% of gun owners), that works out to more like one out of every 70 people in Honduras own at least 1 gun. That's not a lot.

In the United States, there are roughly 225 to 250 million guns among a population of 300 million people. That's almost a 1 to 1 parity, and it's actually more if you just consider adults (225 million in the US age 18 and older). Throwing in the 80/20 rule, we get 50 million gun owners, or about 1 in every 6 people in the US, or about 1 in every 4.5 adults.

Farkwaddle: gshepnyc: dittybopper: Farkwaddle:
Seriously though, I have no issue with having age restriction laws when it comes to large, sharp, potentially stabby objects.


Why?



/Son trying out one of his birthday presents this year. He's five.

I agree with Ditty. If you are old enough to pick something up and explore it you are old enough to learn how to use it properly and safely. Drawing arbitrary lines and pretending there are magical ages of compentency only engenders unhealthy attitudes, even fear, of useful tools.

Let me clarify:
I have no problems with having age restrictions regarding the purchase of said potentially stabby objects. I have absolutely no issue with the parents buying them for their kids and teaching them how to safely use one. I mean, if you're going camping (say for instance Boy Scouts), you're going to need a knife. But that doesn't mean little Timmy should go out and buy the biggest baddest machete and start slinging it around like a kung fu actor he sees on tv. There should be some kind of parental responsibility involved through the whole process and IMO the knife should be suitable for its intended purpose. You don't need a Crocodile Dundee knife for over-night or weekend camping trips.

You are talking sense. The problem is that you say "you don't need a Crocodile Dundee knife for...camping..." True, maybe. But if we have a system where you get to decide that for me then why can't the guy who thinks I shouldn't have a knife at all get a say in what I do, too?

It's better to agree that living in a Democracy doesn't mean we get a say in everything our fellow citizens do, even when it makes us uncomfortable.

lukelightning: gshepnyc:
But it's for the parents to decide, family by family and kid by kid.

Exactly. So if you restrict purchases to age 18 or whatever, a kid can have a machete or claymore or bowie knife or sword-chuks, but (in theory) only with permission of his parents. It's not a perfect solution (kids will find a way to get knives regardless), but it's better than "nobody under 18 can even touch a knife" or whatever. Of course, in my magical unicorn gumdrop land, parents all take responsibility for their kids' actions and are actually involved in their lives...

It's not a perfect world and legislating won't get us there. While the conservatives have nothing to offer me and stand in opposition to many things that I hold dear, it seems a liberal mindset that we are always just one more law away from Utopia.

cmoreland:
I'm no gun expert, but that right there looks verra nice! Great condition too :)

It *SHOULD* be in good condition, it's only about 10 years old or so.

Yes, people still make guns like that. If you go to Track of The Wolf, you can buy the parts you need to make a similar gun, although mine has a 36" 15/16ths across the flats .54" caliber barrel.

abdul: This data seems to say that India is not exactly a saint in the homicide rate category either

not saying it is - but at 3x the population , those stats make for some compelling thought

AliasUndercover: I stepped on a nail as a child. It went right through my foot. I want houses to be only glued together from now on.

I want houses to be built out of scaled up LEGO blocks, 'cause man, that would be *AWESOME*.

/No, seriously.

snuff3r: adamgreeney: I fail to see how this is a fail.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gunsharp object ownership.

Just smile and nod.

FTFY

When Kang and Kodos land with a board with a nail through it, I know what nation will be the first to be conquered.

binnster: dr-shotgun: I live in Oregon and have a concealed pistol license. I carry a Glock 26 or 19 on me every time I walk out the front door. I know a few dozen people who do the same thing.


I'll be visiting the US later this year. I find it kind of concerning that so many people over there are scared enough to feel it necessary to be armed at all times. I have no such fears over here. Is it really such a dangerous place?

I live in the US. I carry a knife. I am not really worried about being attacked. I don't regularly use the knife in my current proffesion. (It occasionally comes in handy due to periphrial duties). I have used a knife for self defense 3 times in my life only one of which was actually serious (walking around in oakland at night because I was to cheap to actually park on the island in the bay. Bart is cheap). As a tourist you should probably stay away from the various slums and bad 'hoods found near any major city, just as you would in the UK. Also unless prepared to arm yourself stay out of wilderness area's especially in the west. While unlikely I'd just hate to see what a headline of Welsh tourist gets eaten by bear in glaceir national park would do to tourism.

I carry a knife because its handy and a 2.5 lbs knife isn't a burden. It helps with opening packages cutting strings stripping wires and lighting things when I need to. I've never actually used the fish hook or line in the handle because if I'm going out in the woods I normally bring other gear. It has also proven useful for a conversation peice on a couple of instances now.

at80eighty: abdul: This data seems to say that India is not exactly a saint in the homicide rate category either

not saying it is - but at 3x the population , those stats make for some compelling thought

The graph shows rates per 100,000 population, so with 3x the population, that roughly (visually) amounts to at least 2-3 times as many people being killed. The lack of guns only means that more people are using other weapons to make a lot more murders in considerably less land area, and in areas with considerably denser population, which means any given murder is probably witnessed by many more people.

dittybopper:

We are talking apples and oranges here: The Honduras coup is a change in the government, which may or may not portend more evil things to come. I haven't actually formed an opinion on it, because unlike an outright military takeover, this one seems to be a bit more, well, morally ambiguous.

I think the problem in Honduras has more to do with the fact that there wasn't a clear impeachment process. Had a sitting American president attempted to do what Zelaya did, Congress would have impeached and removed him faster than you can recite the Twenty Second Amendment of the United States.

Zelaya was *CLEARLY* trying to usurp power that wasn't his, and was acting against the Honduran Constitution, as ruled by the Honduran Supreme Court, the Honduran Attorney General, and the National Congress of Honduras.

Having said that, the Honduran legislature should have removed him, not the military. So like I said, I'm ambivalent about it.

Police and/or military clashes against rioters really aren't comparable to real oppression.

Oh, and Hondurans really aren't as armed as you might think: Estimates are that there are 500,000 guns in a population of around 7 million, or one gun for every 14 people. If the 80/20 rule holds true (80% of guns are owned by 20% of gun owners), that works out to more like one out of every 70 people in Honduras own at least 1 gun. That's not a lot.

In the United States, there are roughly 225 to 250 million guns among a population of 300 million people. That's almost a 1 to 1 parity, and it's actually more if you just consider adults (225 million in the US age 18 and older). Throwing in the 80/20 rule, we get 50 million gun owners, or about 1 in every 6 people in the US, or about 1 in every 4.5 adults.

You are right I had overestimated the armedness of Hondurans. Do you have a source for your estimate? Does it include an estimate for the black market guns as well?

I'm probably being stupid but I don't see how it is apples and oranges here, the government was changed by force and the military are preventing the citizens that are objecting to this from changing it. Zelaya was clearly up to shenanigans yes but there is always going to be a justification by whoever attempts to seize power, and they are always going to call the citizens that object rioters.

In fact actually I reject your assertion that military clashes against rioters aren't comparable to oppression. That is semantics , the people you are terming rioters would say they were fighting to ensure their country remains a democracy.

They key parts to my mind, irrespective of the political background, where the speed with which the regime changed and the people actually doing the change.

Zelaya would have needed to pass an amendment to extend his stay he could have been defeated democratically, instead the military decided to act without the authority of the people.

Doesn't the very real possibility that the first the well armed populace would know of regime change would be Washington DC surrounded by tanks change the ability of a well armed population to prevent this sort of thing?

Anyway thanks for a fascinating response.

abdul: so with 3x the population, that roughly (visually) amounts to at least 2-3 times as many people being killed.

dude have you seen the number of people we have? we are our best natural population control!

A lot of gun owners in the US own than 1 gun (I have 9 in my house), so those "statistics" are massively skewed anyway.

Purple_Gromit: An armed society is a polite society.

In the UK (population c. 60.5m) there were 765 reported incidents of murder for 2005-6 (Home Office, undated) - a rate of about 1.1 per 100,000.

In the US (population c. 298.5m) there were an estimated 16,137 homicides in 2004 (FBI, 2006a) - a rate of about 5.4 per 100,000

OK, now for extra credit, describe any demographic differences between the two countries that might account for a large part of that difference?

Oh, and by the way, you aren't using the numbers for the UK, you are using the numbers for England and Wales, and labeling them "UK", which also includes Scotland and Northern Ireland (both of which have higher homicide rates, and pretty much identical gun laws, to England and Wales).

Oh, and the last number for England and Wales that I've seen is higher, at 1.23 per 100,000.

Plus, your homicide rate for the US is wrong. According to the CDC WISQARS page, it was 6.22 per 100,000 in 2006.


Here's a hint for your extra credit: Fool around with different populations in that WISQARS page and see what results you get.

Forgot the link:

CDC WISQARS Injury Mortality Reports

gshepnyc: Farkwaddle: gshepnyc: dittybopper: Farkwaddle:
Seriously though, I have no issue with having age restriction laws when it comes to large, sharp, potentially stabby objects.


Why?



/Son trying out one of his birthday presents this year. He's five.

I agree with Ditty. If you are old enough to pick something up and explore it you are old enough to learn how to use it properly and safely. Drawing arbitrary lines and pretending there are magical ages of compentency only engenders unhealthy attitudes, even fear, of useful tools.

Let me clarify:
I have no problems with having age restrictions regarding the purchase of said potentially stabby objects. I have absolutely no issue with the parents buying them for their kids and teaching them how to safely use one. I mean, if you're going camping (say for instance Boy Scouts), you're going to need a knife. But that doesn't mean little Timmy should go out and buy the biggest baddest machete and start slinging it around like a kung fu actor he sees on tv. There should be some kind of parental responsibility involved through the whole process and IMO the knife should be suitable for its intended purpose. You don't need a Crocodile Dundee knife for over-night or weekend camping trips.

You are talking sense. The problem is that you say "you don't need a Crocodile Dundee knife for...camping..." True, maybe. But if we have a system where you get to decide that for me then why can't the guy who thinks I shouldn't have a knife at all get a say in what I do, too?

It's better to agree that living in a Democracy doesn't mean we get a say in everything our fellow citizens do, even when it makes us uncomfortable.

I'm speaking specifically to parental responsibility. If you, as an adult, want to buy and carry a huge knife for whatever reason then go for it. I'm not suggesting that laws should dictate what you can or cannot buy. Hell, if a parent wants to buy a machete for their kid, go for it. What I'm saying is that the parent should be held accountable for teaching their kid how to use it properly and responsibly.

at80eighty: abdul: so with 3x the population, that roughly (visually) amounts to at least 2-3 times as many people being killed.

dude have you seen the number of people we have? we are our best natural population control!

That's not far from being the case in the big US cities, either. :( Detroit and Baltimore are examples, with a murder almost every day in either city.

You know, regardless of what "Shawn of the Dead" would have you believe, when the inevitable Zombie Apocalypse happens, England's farked.

Pseudowolf: You know, regardless of what "Shawn of the Dead" would have you believe, when the inevitable Zombie Apocalypse happens, England's farked.

THIS

Epsilon: When I was a kid we didn't have the Internet, but I could take a short walk uptown to Whitehead's Cutlery shop where you could buy any knife you wanted.

They had not only machetes, but replica Rambo knives (those were popular then), switch blades, even Samurai swords. Almost any kind of knife you wanted. They even had Chinese throwing stars. I bought lots of those.


So you were one of those weird kids that was into knives? Got laid alot, did ya?

Eurowussies. It would be refreshing to see one of those eurotrash nations grow a pair.

oshkosh: What sport do you need a machete for?

Juggling

FTFA: "As a mother who knows the pain of losing a child, if one life was saved by a ban on the internet sale of knives, it would be worthwhile," she said.

This is a major problem. This bullshiat sentiment gets turned into "As a mother who knows the pain of losing a child, if one life was saved by a ban on the internet sale of knives INSERT WHATEVER YOU DON'T LIKE, it would be worthwhile," and is used to place more and more restrictions on law-abiding folks.

/Tink ob da chidrens!

The Envoy: The staggering twattishness of the ill-educated is never more apparent than in UK threads! Bless you all!

You will NOT get 10 years for carrying a pocket knife unless you use it maliciously! I got stopped in Victoria station with a tool kit containing a stanley and spare blades and my Swiss Army knife in my pocket. The coppers went through everything and didn't even bat an eyelid because I was on my way to work.

Maximum sentence is NOT the same as a mandatory sentence. It's like you lot think Judge Dredd-style sentencing is in use here!

WHy did you get stopped? For carrying a toolbox?

dittybopper: CDC WISQARS

16.71 per 100,000 versus 2.2 per 100,000.

Interesting.

abdul:
This is awesome. Thanks for posting it.

It really is a great book. Scary thing is that if you read the chapter called The Interrogation, it has a description of the interrogation/torture methods used by the NKVD/SMERSH/KGB that looks like it came from GITMO. Pretty sad that so many Americans that supposedly "love freedom" can't understand when there gov't is acting like a bunch of thugs.

Pseudowolf: You know, regardless of what "Shawn of the Dead" would have you believe, when the inevitable Zombie Apocalypse happens, England's farked.

Is there an age restriction on cricket bats?

There is no problem that can't be solved by more government power.

loki see loki do: The Envoy: The staggering twattishness of the ill-educated is never more apparent than in UK threads! Bless you all!

You will NOT get 10 years for carrying a pocket knife unless you use it maliciously! I got stopped in Victoria station with a tool kit containing a stanley and spare blades and my Swiss Army knife in my pocket. The coppers went through everything and didn't even bat an eyelid because I was on my way to work.

Maximum sentence is NOT the same as a mandatory sentence. It's like you lot think Judge Dredd-style sentencing is in use here!

WHy did you get stopped? For carrying a toolbox?

Let's just say that the copper's dog did seem to like me.

dittybopper: abdul:
This is awesome. Thanks for posting it.

Read the whole book.

It is a great one and should be on everyone's shelves. You can learn a lot about the price citizens pay for unchecked power in the hands of a few. A lot of modern day correlations in there.

DancingJester:
You are right I had overestimated the armedness of Hondurans. Do you have a source for your estimate? Does it include an estimate for the black market guns as well?

A UN-TV report estimates 500,000 guns "flood the illegal weapons markets" in Honduras, but then goes on to explain that there is an effort to register at least some of them (in 2004). The JPFO at that time was reporting 400,000 registered gun owners in Honduras, so there has to be a major overlap, especially given the antipathy of the UN towards private gun ownership in any form.

Of course, even if you double that estimate, though, it's still no where near as many guns per capita as in the US.


I'm probably being stupid but I don't see how it is apples and oranges here, the government was changed by force and the military are preventing the citizens that are objecting to this from changing it. Zelaya was clearly up to shenanigans yes but there is always going to be a justification by whoever attempts to seize power, and they are always going to call the citizens that object rioters.

In fact actually I reject your assertion that military clashes against rioters aren't comparable to oppression. That is semantics , the people you are terming rioters would say they were fighting to ensure their country remains a democracy.

They key parts to my mind, irrespective of the political background, where the speed with which the regime changed and the people actually doing the change.

Zelaya would have needed to pass an amendment to extend his stay he could have been defeated democratically, instead the military decided to act without the authority of the people.

Doesn't the very real possibility that the first the well armed populace would know of regime change would be Washington DC surrounded by tanks change the ability of a well armed population to prevent this sort of thing?

Anyway thanks for a fascinating response.

You bring up good points, and of course there really is no good answer as far as Honduras is concerned, which is why I stated from the outset that I was ambivalent about it.

As for your last scenario, I doubt it. The United States has at most 3 million people under arms, if you include those in the reserves and in the National Guard.

One giant, but unofficial and under-reported check on the use of the military against the government or the people themselves is the fact that those of us in the "gun culture" of the United States tend to be drawn to the military at some point in our lives. After all, that's where they pay you to play with the *REALLY* cool toys. We take an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. By definition, anyone attempting a military coup in Washington, D.C. is an enemy of the Constitution, and is going to have to deal with a significant fraction of the military either sitting on the sidelines (and thus creating gaps for civilians to act), or actively working against them.

It's even worse than I make it to be, because the most gung-ho Second Amendment guys tend to drift towards the combat arms specialties. It's the rural white guys (most likely to be supporters of the Second Amendment) who end up on the pointy tip of the spear, while minorities (less likely to support the Second Amendment) more often end up in non-combat specialties*.

Then you have all of us who have military experience, but are no longer in the military in any form. We know the culture of the military, and we still take our oath seriously. And of course, you have those of us who don't have military experience, but yet still are part of the culture that reveres the Constitution and it's limitations on government action.

*One of the reasons for this is that for minorities, as near as I can figure, the military is often the best way to earn a marketable skill.

dittybopper: those of us in the "gun culture" of the United States tend to be drawn to the military at some point in our lives. After all, that's where they pay you to play with the *REALLY* cool toys. We take an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic

And of course that has nothing to do with why we should be disarmed. My guns here in Missouri should be taken away from me to protect people in Washington DC. It's all about the children, it has nothing to do with preventing me from owning something that would allow me to resist.

Hongcouver: oshkosh: What sport do you need a machete for?

Juggling

that and keeping the kitchen garden in shape. If you don't think gardening is a sport, you probably don't have the nads for gardening clubs. I've seen discharged Marines reduced to piles of tears by the "cute little grandmothers" in the gardening club.

Lulz aside, how does the UK government have their restrictions on possessing bladed implements with religious freedoms? Sikhs and Asatruar are two groups I know off the top of my head that are required by the articles of their faith to be armed at all times. Sikhs traditionally wear a dagger in the folds of their turbans, not the biggest and most threatening of blades, but better than nothing. Asatruar express more variance, but Hamaval verse 38 is rather clear on the need of all Asatru persons to maintain some armament at all time. For refrence:

38
Vápnum sínum
skala maðr velli á
feti ganga framar
því at
óvist er at vita
nær verðr á vegum úti
geirs um þörf guma

[2] A man in the open country must not
[3] go more than one step
[1] from his weapons;
because one can't be sure
when, outside on the roads,
a spear will be needed by a warrior.

The lines are rearranged by the translator to conform to English grammar, and marked for reference purposes.

give me doughnuts: dittybopper: CDC WISQARS

16.71 per 100,000 versus 2.2 per 100,000.

Interesting.

18.62 versus 1.43 if you pick "Non-Hispanic", although I would leave the method at "all injury" instead of checking just firearms.

Doing that would give you rates of 23.61 vs. 2.70, and counting Hispanics separately with a rate of 8.0 per 100,000.

paygun: There is no problem that can't be solved by more government power.



Most human problems can be solved by the appropriate charge of high explosives.

dittybopper: You bring up good points, and of course there really is no good answer as far as Honduras is concerned, which is why I stated from the outset that I was ambivalent about it.

As for your last scenario, I doubt it. The United States has at most 3 million people under arms, if you include those in the reserves and in the National Guard.

One giant, but unofficial and under-reported check on the use of the military against the government or the people themselves is the fact that those of us in the "gun culture" of the United States tend to be drawn to the military at some point in our lives. After all, that's where they pay you to play with the *REALLY* cool toys. We take an oath to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. By definition, anyone attempting a military coup in Washington, D.C. is an enemy of the Constitution, and is going to have to deal with a significant fraction of the military either sitting on the sidelines (and thus creating gaps for civilians to act), or actively working against them.

It's even worse than I make it to be, because the most gung-ho Second Amendment guys tend to drift towards the combat arms specialties. It's the rural white guys (most likely to be supporters of the Second Amendment) who end up on the pointy tip of the spear, while minorities (less likely to support the Second Amendment) more often end up in non-combat specialties*.

Then you have all of us who have military experience, but are no longer in the military in any form. We know the culture of the military, and we still take our oath seriously. And of course, you have those of us who don't have military experience, but yet still are part of the culture that reveres the Constitution and it's limitations on government action.

*One of the reasons for this is that for minorities, as near as I can figure, the military is often the best way to earn a marketable skill.

Ta for the link, interesting stuff and as you say it would be hard to imagine those numbers are out by that significant a factor.

I think a large part of my thought process is the belief that the military in Honduras believe, sincerely, that they are defending the constitution, and that the people objecting are rioters. It makes it hard for me to reconcile the scenario you have just put forward. If you believed deposing the president was defending the constitution then the protesters would be domestic enemies and your oath would be .. problematic .. for them.

Anyway to my mind we've ended up with such an absurdly unlikely theoretical scenario that to go further would be madness. For what it is worth were I still living in the US I'd be on your side of the gun debate. Gun control is madness in the US. I'd possibly eve n want the 'really cool toys' opened up to the public as well. Makes it consistent. Guns (aside form hunting rifles and shotties) just don't seem to work for the UK, as evidenced by the dearth of people trying to get the legislation changed. As you can probably tell my only problem is this whole 'preventing a coup' thing. Is it worth foisting guns on a population that by all accounts doesn't want them, would it even work?

Anyway thanks again for an interesting chat.

paygun: And of course that has nothing to do with why we should be disarmed. My guns here in Missouri should be taken away from me to protect people in Washington DC. It's all about the children, it has nothing to do with preventing me from owning something that would allow me to resist.

Sorry paygun I don't quite get what you are trying to say? I don't mean to be rude but is this just spleen venting against people trying to limit your fire power?

The fact that areas like Mogadishu (sp?) can have high concentrations of guns and lawlessness has more to do with lawlessness and corruption then guns. However, you will also find that guns STILL do not reach the hands of good and honest people. You will also find these area are places where even something like an RG revolver or a Clerke 1st revolver would be prohibitively expensive... and yet we are led to believe that guns in these areas flow like water, and given to all. It is not: It's eletism at it's best!

Oh just before I bugger off this seems as good a place as any.

Screw you Fark for not greening this (new window) story about the effective end of ID cards in the UK. It would be nice, just once, to have a story about the people beating the government into submission not the other way round. If people still felt the need to get all uk sux about it, well we did waste £1 billion on this foible.

/Hoping this doesn't count as harassing Fark ....
//Also hoping I haven't just missed this story being on Fark because boy wouldn't I look dumb(er).

DancingJester: Guns (aside form hunting rifles and shotties) just don't seem to work for the UK, as evidenced by the dearth of people trying to get the legislation changed.

I think part of the reason for that is that the sport shooting organizations in the UK were and are very fractured. There is no one organization that defends *ALL* of the shooting sports like the NRA in the United States.

Then, of course, you have the gradual weening of firearms from the populace through the periodic introduction of seemingly 'reasonable' restrictions.

Rip apart a disposable razor, put razor blade in bic pen and add heat. Simple recipe for a simple easy to hide weapon.

A machete means don't fark with me, not I'm going to go kill you. A hammer is just as much as a weapon as a machete, bet BBC wouldn't freak about a kid buying a hammer.

Jeng: Rip apart a disposable razor, put razor blade in bic pen and add heat. Simple recipe for a simple easy to hide weapon.

A machete means don't fark with me, not I'm going to go kill you. A hammer is just as much as a weapon as a machete, bet BBC wouldn't freak about a kid buying a hammer.

I wouldn't give them that much credit.

Relatively Obscure: In some countries, they just shove one of those into your hand as soon as it pops out of your mom's vag. And those places are AWESOME.

There are countries where your mom's vag dispenses machetes?

I think we should make firearms training a mandatory course right before graduating High School. That way we can cure gun ignorance and (for some) an incentive to graduate.

Ral: Relatively Obscure: In some countries, they just shove one of those into your hand as soon as it pops out of your mom's vag. And those places are AWESOME.

There are countries where your mom's vag dispenses machetes?

Yeah, but they tend to be on the lunatic minge...

/Damn! Used British slang. I must purify myself through ritual mortification.

Pinko_Commie:


Bullshiat.
The applicable part of the law is the Criminal Justice Act (1988), Section 139 being the most important.
"It is an offence for any person, without lawful authority or good reason, to have with him in a public place, any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except for a folding pocket-knife which has a cutting edge to its blade not exceeding 3 inches." [CJA 1988 section 139(1)]
So, as long as you have a good reason you can carry any bladed object, for instance you can have a machete if you are doing some garden clearance, and you can carry a folding pocket knife as long as the blade is less than 3 inches, which pretty muich covers Swiss army knives, leathermans etc, though a special exception is made for lock knives, which are considered to be fixed blades for the purposes of the law.

a) Who decides "good reason"? The police, who then steal your expensive pocket tool and no doubt lock you up for a night if you protest.
b)My leatherman has two blades both of which lock and are over 3". Unsurprisingly. Anything less would be little use outside of an office.
c)If I want to carry a general utility tool/knife for whatever minor emergencies life throws at me I am, at the least, discouraged.

/Bottom line: Britain today is lacking in that hard to define quality our grandads called "common sense".

He bought it for traversing the Welsh rainforest.

Question for British farkers:

Is it illegal to carry around a large flathead screwdriver? It would work quite well as a killing weapon, and you could always use the excuse that you're heading somewhere to repair a friend's PC.

Next thing you know we'll be suspending children for taking a plastic knife to school.

Oh...wait...

give me doughnuts: Pseudowolf: You know, regardless of what "Shawn of the Dead" would have you believe, when the inevitable Zombie Apocalypse happens, England's farked.

Is there an age restriction on cricket bats?

Not yet, but there are those in Parliament who have discussed banning them because you might hurt someone with one.

I can't wait for the movie version of Snow Crash to come out.

Illiterate chavs will go nuts when they find out how effective glass knives are.

Machete? $4.99 at Harbor Freight

Credy: Question for British farkers:

Is it illegal to carry around a large flathead screwdriver? It would work quite well as a killing weapon, and you could always use the excuse that you're heading somewhere to repair a friend's PC.

Carrying it with the intent of using it as a weapon? Yes.

Carrying it because you need a screwdriver to screw in screws. No.

It's all about context.

A 14 year old chav hanging around on a street corner with a large screwdriver in his pocket is going to get it confiscated at a minimum as he's blatently carrying it for violent purposes.
A bloke in a pub with one inside his jacket. I highly suspect he'll get carted off down the station for carrying an offensive weapon.
If it's hanging from your toolbelt and your're up a ladder fixing something, or working on your car, or doing something that would actually cause you to need a screwddriver, then they won't bat an eyelid.

It's not rocket science people.

/if the copper was any way PC savvy he would realise that PC's rarely (if ever) have flathead screws in them :-p

I think a machete is the sort of thing you notice someone carrying. Whoa.

Expressable as the sum of two cubes: snuff3r: adamgreeney: I fail to see how this is a fail.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

Just smile and nod.

Of course, this is just a coping mechanism used to deal with the fact that you have no real argument for gun control.
Back on topic, I don't care if the whole country doesn't want rampant gun ownership, but this incident is a FAIL. If a kid is going to stab or cut someone, he is not going to be carrying a machete around London. He is going to use a smaller knife that he can hide from the cameras and police (not saying Britain is a police state, so STFU before you accuse me of that).
What is wrong with a kid being allowed to buy a machete? It is a tool. If it were a switchblade, I could see the point: It's designed for easy concealment for use in an attack, either on you by you. A machete, though, is designed for use in camping, and for clearing bush. I've used one for basic yardwork.

Why not freak out if a kid buys a hammer or screwdriver? Both of those could be used as a weapon? The first car I owned came with a tire iron; should that be made illegal?
/subby

You are a fantastic idiot. I explained why you shouldn't sell a giant knife to a child. Good lord.

DancingJester: Oh just before I bugger off this seems as good a place as any.

Screw you Fark for not greening this (new window) story about the effective end of ID cards in the UK. It would be nice, just once, to have a story about the people beating the government into submission not the other way round. If people still felt the need to get all uk sux about it, well we did waste £1 billion on this foible.

/Hoping this doesn't count as harassing Fark ....
//Also hoping I haven't just missed this story being on Fark because boy wouldn't I look dumb(er).

Don't sweat it - Fark is here to make money through page impressions. The combined numbers of US gun enthusiasts and virgin teenage hard men on here is always going to outweigh the number of people capable of having an informed discussion about pretty much anything related to another country, or women for that matter. It's largely due to many of the posters' insularity, poor comprehension skills and lack of life experience, but the modmins know what makes the money here.

Huh. I had access to my dad's service machete growing up, yet I never did anything stupid with it.

/That snapping turtle needed decapitating.
//Family made turtle soup.
///The turtle was a mean SOB.

A company I used to work for had a policy stating that "weapons or guns" could not be brought onto company premises. Which begs the question: isn't a gun a weapon? And: is a baseball bat a weapon?

The company was based in California, so perhaps clear and logical thinking was not to be expected.

adamgreeney: Expressable as the sum of two cubes: snuff3r: adamgreeney: I fail to see how this is a fail.

It's a coping mechanism deployed by some article submitters who can't wrap their heads around the idea that an entire country doesn't want rampant gun ownership.

Just smile and nod.

Of course, this is just a coping mechanism used to deal with the fact that you have no real argument for gun control.
Back on topic, I don't care if the whole country doesn't want rampant gun ownership, but this incident is a FAIL. If a kid is going to stab or cut someone, he is not going to be carrying a machete around London. He is going to use a smaller knife that he can hide from the cameras and police (not saying Britain is a police state, so STFU before you accuse me of that).
What is wrong with a kid being allowed to buy a machete? It is a tool. If it were a switchblade, I could see the point: It's designed for easy concealment for use in an attack, either on you by you. A machete, though, is designed for use in camping, and for clearing bush. I've used one for basic yardwork.

Why not freak out if a kid buys a hammer or screwdriver? Both of those could be used as a weapon? The first car I owned came with a tire iron; should that be made illegal?
/subby

You are a fantastic idiot. I explained why you shouldn't sell a giant knife garden tool to a childteenager. Good lord.

If you knives are outlawed, only outlaws will have knives.

Why don't you put the whole world in a bottle, Superman

/the last isn't directed at you, merely the folks who are outraged someone can buy a conspicuous tool.

adamgreeney:

You are a fantastic idiot. I explained why you shouldn't sell a giant knife to a child. Good lord.

Ummm, no. You explained why you don't sell knives to teens, and I agree that's a good policy. However, you sell swords, which serve no other purpose than to kill people. It's what they're designed to do. A machete is designed to cut through small trees and branches, or similar.

Now, if you want to have a reasonable discussion about this matter, I'm entirely open to the idea. So lets start over, and don't call me an idiot again, please. In return, I'll do the same.

/nice to meet you
//think I'm being trolled