I say they should be the first to be hung on the highest post that can be found.

Itsallaboutme: I say they should be the first to be hung on the highest post that can be found.

-3

/stupid post
//"first"
///extra penalty for being a TFer and doing it in a non-ironic way

These assholes are going to farking bankrupt us all.

I'm disgusted that even farking Cuba provides health care to its citizens while we don't.

eddyatwork: I'm disgusted that even farking Cuba provides health care to its citizens while we don't.

Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.

FTFA: "Medical home" is this decade's version of HMO-style insurance, according to the Congressional Budget Office, with a primary-care provider to manage your access to costly services such as visits to specialists and diagnostic tests.

Oh no! Gatekeepers for access to advanced diagnostics and specialists are actually the front-line health care workers? How could they.

As a Canadian, there's something I find very interesting in this full-court press against health care reform: Many of the arguments against the proposed changes (such as the one above), highlight the problems in a vertically blended delivery system, and are actually excellent justifications for single-payer.

Be careful what you ask for, WSJ. You just might get it.

jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average ²/₃ of a year longer?

GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that quality of life is better. Most of that is because the Cubans have a better diet because the government won't allow the importation of junk food from other countries.

The horror stories I've heard from uncles on how little food or other essentials that the government "allows" them to have.

Sorry, you will never be able to tell me that Cuba is better off than the US.

jetzzfan: Yes, but that doesn't mean that quality of life is better. Most of that is because the Cubans have a better diet because the government won't allow the importation of junk food from other countries.

The horror stories I've heard from uncles on how little food or other essentials that the government "allows" them to have.

Sorry, you will never be able to tell me that Cuba is better off than the US.

Changing the discussion. Cuban socialist health care does not suck, it cannot for such a poor country to have such a high life expectancy. That was my point.

GAT_00: jetzzfan: Yes, but that doesn't mean that quality of life is better. Most of that is because the Cubans have a better diet because the government won't allow the importation of junk food from other countries.

The horror stories I've heard from uncles on how little food or other essentials that the government "allows" them to have.

Sorry, you will never be able to tell me that Cuba is better off than the US.

Changing the discussion. Cuban socialist health care does not suck, it cannot for such a poor country to have such a high life expectancy. That was my point.

It does suck. I have family members that can't receive treatment because "it isn't worth it" for the government to provide treatment. They are told by the government which doctors can be theirs.

Also, health care is not the only reason for high life expectancies. Cubans have a better diet and are more active as most jobs aren't exactly desk jobs down there.

jetzzfan: GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Yes, but that doesn't mean that quality of life is better. Most of that is because the Cubans have a better diet because the government won't allow the importation of junk food from other countries.

The horror stories I've heard from uncles on how little food or other essentials that the government "allows" them to have.

Sorry, you will never be able to tell me that Cuba is better off than the US.

Oooh! Stories from dissatisfied exiles! I'm shocked that they would have anything bad to say about Cuba. I mean, really.

Cuba, Argentina, and Chile have the highest literacy rates in the Western Hemisphere. Cuba turns out LOTS of doctors. And I don't mean "PhD in basket-weaving", but actual physicians. Cuba has a very educated populace for having such a dick-headed government.

The same can be said in the United States.

jetzzfan: I have family members that can't receive treatment because "it isn't worth it" for the government to provide treatment. They are told by the government which doctors can be theirs.

And this is different from an American HMO, how, exactly?

Massachusetts has this "pick a government approved plan or pay a fine" rule. So some people are paying twice -- once to the government, and once to the health insurance company that is providing an adequate plan that doesn't meet every detail of the state's rule or has not been formally qualified as meeting every detail. There was a study trying to show whether Massachusetts pay-them-or-pay-us rule shifted the cost burden. It didn't. All groups studied had to pay more than under the old system. And the theory that forcing people to be covered would reduce costs by catching problems early has also been disproved. Family doctors are not curing a rush of newly-insured patients before they hit the emergency rooms.

jetzzfan: Sorry, you will never be able to tell me that Cuba is better off than the US.

That doesn't mean there aren't some aspects of Cuban society and government that the US could benefit from mimicking.

GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Accurate statistics about a dictatorship nation? Unlikely.

WhileAmericaBurns: GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Accurate statistics about a dictatorship nation? Unlikely.

Try the U.S. State Department (new window), dumbass.

Look around and explore. It's small, like your dick, but you'll eventually find it.

ecmoRandomNumbers: WhileAmericaBurns: GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Accurate statistics about a dictatorship nation? Unlikely.

Try the U.S. State Department (new window), dumbass.

Look around and explore. It's small, like your dick, but you'll eventually find it.

Yeah, so? You're telling me Castro let in Americans to conduct an independent and objective analysis of life in Cuba? I don't think so.

The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

ecmoRandomNumbers: jetzzfan: I have family members that can't receive treatment because "it isn't worth it" for the government to provide treatment. They are told by the government which doctors can be theirs.

And this is different from an American HMO, how, exactly?

THIS. I have a hard time believing we can't do better that a system that puts profit on an equal or greater priority than providing actual medical care.

As for bureaucracy, is anyone actually happy with the numeous hops you have to jump through for care, built with the intention of actively keeping people from reimbursement?

The WSJ editorial page: Free Republic with intellectual pretensions.

Do the admins greenlight every opinion piece from that Murdoch rag?

PirateFreedom: The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

Yeah, I'm gonna believe that a farking "pirate" has a rational definition of political freedom.

Holy CRAP...it has begun...now idiots are trying to convince us that a country with no freedom should be emulated? The slide is worse and happening faster then I even feared. This was a great country. It is a shame we gave it away.

walkingtall: Holy CRAP...it has begun...now idiots are trying to convince us that a country with no freedom should be emulated? The slide is worse and happening faster then I even feared. This was a great country. It is a shame we gave it away.

They'll never listen to you or me.

TofuTheAlmighty: The WSJ editorial page: Free Republic with intellectual pretensions.

Do the admins greenlight every opinion piece from that Murdoch rag?

Is there any place better? The entire media is filled with pseudo-intellectual right wing pretension. Fark is just making a cheap buck off it.

WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

Yeah, I'm gonna believe that a farking "pirate" has a rational definition of political freedom.

You make my point for me.
The noise will win.

DarnoKonrad: TofuTheAlmighty: The WSJ editorial page: Free Republic with intellectual pretensions.

Do the admins greenlight every opinion piece from that Murdoch rag?

Is there any place better? The entire media is filled with pseudo-intellectual right wing pretension. Fark is just making a cheap buck off it.

And pseudo-intellectual left wing pretension. Bottom line, there's morons of every intellectual shade filling the media. What's your point?

WhileAmericaBurns: ecmoRandomNumbers: WhileAmericaBurns: GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Accurate statistics about a dictatorship nation? Unlikely.

Try the U.S. State Department (new window), dumbass.

Look around and explore. It's small, like your dick, but you'll eventually find it.

Yeah, so? You're telling me Castro let in Americans to conduct an independent and objective analysis of life in Cuba? I don't think so.

You obviously don't know how the State Department works. My niece's husband worked for the "State Department." He said he worked for Raytheon. He was CIA.

We have agents in every country on Earth. Like it or hate it, that's the way it is.

WhileAmericaBurns: walkingtall: Holy CRAP...it has begun...now idiots are trying to convince us that a country with no freedom should be emulated? The slide is worse and happening faster then I even feared. This was a great country. It is a shame we gave it away.

They'll never listen to you or me.

You idiots are winning. You'll get your right wing status quo -- it's exactly what they're working on in congress -- not single payer.

WhileAmericaBurns: Bottom line, there's morons of every intellectual shade filling the media.

My ass. The media comes in two flavors. Far right, and center right.

PirateFreedom: WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

Yeah, I'm gonna believe that a farking "pirate" has a rational definition of political freedom.

You make my point for me.
The noise will win.

Most of the noise is coming from the side of political oppression: more control, control, control, more government power.

WhileAmericaBurns: Most of the noise is coming from the side of political oppression

The Right.

DarnoKonrad: WhileAmericaBurns: walkingtall: Holy CRAP...it has begun...now idiots are trying to convince us that a country with no freedom should be emulated? The slide is worse and happening faster then I even feared. This was a great country. It is a shame we gave it away.

They'll never listen to you or me.

You idiots are winning. You'll get your right wing status quo -- it's exactly what they're working on in congress -- not single payer.

I don't consider myself a right winger. Nevertheless, I don't think the people who are on the side of freedom - whoever they are - are winning in this country at all.

ecmoRandomNumbers: WhileAmericaBurns: ecmoRandomNumbers: WhileAmericaBurns: GAT_00: jetzzfan: Do you have family there? Then you don't realize how badly those people are living and that the health care sucks there. Don't think for a second that Cubans are better off than you are.



From the CIA World Factbook:

Cuban life expectancy
total population: 77.45 years
country comparison to the world: 55
male: 75.19 years
female: 79.85 years (2009 est.)

US life expectancy
total population: 78.11 years
country comparison to the world: 50
male: 75.65 years
female: 80.69 years (2009 est.)

Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Accurate statistics about a dictatorship nation? Unlikely.

Try the U.S. State Department (new window), dumbass.

Look around and explore. It's small, like your dick, but you'll eventually find it.

Yeah, so? You're telling me Castro let in Americans to conduct an independent and objective analysis of life in Cuba? I don't think so.

You obviously don't know how the State Department works. My niece's husband worked for the "State Department." He said he worked for Raytheon. He was CIA.

We have agents in every country on Earth. Like it or hate it, that's the way it is.


Guess what!
The US and Cuba aren't the only countries in the world.
If you can't find better examples of the failure of the US system it is because you choose not to look.

Bloody William: ecmoRandomNumbers: jetzzfan: I have family members that can't receive treatment because "it isn't worth it" for the government to provide treatment. They are told by the government which doctors can be theirs.

And this is different from an American HMO, how, exactly?

THIS. I have a hard time believing we can't do better that a system that puts profit on an equal or greater priority than providing actual medical care.

As for bureaucracy, is anyone actually happy with the numeous hops you have to jump through for care, built with the intention of actively keeping people from reimbursement?

What kind of crappy insurance do you have? $15/doctor's visit $25/any procedure. That's it. And this is part of a family plan with two chronic illnesses.

DarnoKonrad: WhileAmericaBurns: Most of the noise is coming from the side of political oppression

The Right.

You see, you think that only because you don't have a more nuanced grasp of political philosophy. If you did, you would realize that the Left and the Right are both full of people with anti-freedom ideas.

WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

Yeah, I'm gonna believe that a farking "pirate" has a rational definition of political freedom.

You make my point for me.
The noise will win.

Most of the noise is coming from the side of political oppression: more control, control, control, more government power.

You don't disprove the claim that the US spends more and gets less, you spout meaningless political rhetoric.
You are the noise winning.

PirateFreedom: WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

Yeah, I'm gonna believe that a farking "pirate" has a rational definition of political freedom.

You make my point for me.
The noise will win.

Most of the noise is coming from the side of political oppression: more control, control, control, more government power.

You don't disprove the claim that the US spends more and gets less, you spout meaningless political rhetoric.
You are the noise winning.

Well of course the U.S. gets less for what it spends. That's what happens when the government controls everything. Now tell me where my side, the side that wants less government control, is winning?

WhileAmericaBurns: freedom

A word so abused by the Right as ti become meaningless. Empty rhetoric.

In this context, it should mean free from fear of being screwed by your health insurance -- not free to make a buck off of desperate people.


Freedom in the absence of a single payer health care system, is no freedom at all -- and we're getting the status quo.

WhileAmericaBurns: You're telling me Castro let in Americans to conduct an independent and objective analysis of life in Cuba? I don't think so.

Try thinking through that objection for just a moment. You might want to retract it.

WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: WhileAmericaBurns: PirateFreedom: The US is screwed.
A fraction of the trillions in difference between what you spend and what you get is enough to buy all the politicians, astroturfing and propaganda required to keep the parasites in place.
Every single change attempted will be turned into another complicated mess that feeds them and makes the gap between what you pay and what you get even worse.
You have countless examples of more being done with less but you also have countless billions spent on screaming noise to deafen you and flashing lights in your eyes to make you blind.
The noise will win.
Other nations control costs, yours never will because you are made deaf and blind.
You drown in theory, anecdote and just plain bullshiate while the big picture numbers of spending and life expectancy laugh at you from beyond your hearing.

Yeah, I'm gonna believe that a farking "pirate" has a rational definition of political freedom.

You make my point for me.
The noise will win.

Most of the noise is coming from the side of political oppression: more control, control, control, more government power.

You don't disprove the claim that the US spends more and gets less, you spout meaningless political rhetoric.
You are the noise winning.

Well of course the U.S. gets less for what it spends. That's what happens when the government controls everything. Now tell me where my side, the side that wants less government control, is winning?

The US government has more control than in nations like France?
I'm not talking to you anymore - you are either a fool or a liar

WhileAmericaBurns: Well of course the U.S. gets less for what it spends. That's what happens when the government controls everything.

Do you not understand that the US gets less for what it spends as compared to countries that have public health care systems?

GAT_00: Yes, we're so much better off. The US is hundreds of times richer than Cuba, and we only live on average 2/3 of a year longer?

Average life expectancy is a lousy statistic to use in comparing the health care systems of different countries.

DarnoKonrad: WhileAmericaBurns: freedom

A word so abused by the Right as ti become meaningless. Empty rhetoric.

In this context, it should mean free from fear of being screwed by your health insurance -- not free to make a buck off of desperate people.


Freedom in the absence of a single payer health care system, is no freedom at all -- and we're getting the status quo.

There is no such thing as freedom from having to deal with others on a voluntary, non-coercive basis. That is, you don't have the right to be provided health care by others at the point of a gun. Besides, we don't have a politically free health care system right now. You can't blame the current state of the system on lack of government control: there's already plenty of government control.

walkingtall: Holy CRAP...it has begun...now idiots are trying to convince us that a country with no freedom should be emulated? The slide is worse and happening faster then I even feared. This was a great country. It is a shame we gave it away.

Please tell me what freedoms we have that other Western countries do not have.

Let's go through the Bill of Rights, shall we? --

I -- First Amendment - Establishment Clause, Free Exercise Clause; freedom of speech, of the press, Freedom of Religion, and of assembly; right to petition,

Europe and South America already do most of this.

II -- A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Arms are heavily regulated, but not banned, in most Western nations.

III -- No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

This has been irrelevant for a long time in most Western nations. That's why you never hear of the Third Ammendment on the news.

IV -- The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

This right was almost eliminated with the "War on Drugs" and came to full failure with the "Patriot Act."

V -- If you want me to go on, I will. But I think I've made my point. We are not the land of the free. There are countries much more free than ours.

WhileAmericaBurns: Now tell me where my side, the side that wants less government control, is winning?

The United States is the most deregulated in its history. We used to price fix steel in this nation. Control the airlines, set the price of oil. . .a whole slew of government interventions. To pretend in the face of 30 years of unmitigated and unprecedented deregulation that government controls everything is wildly disconnected from reality and symptomatic of everything that is wrong with this nation.

eraser8: WhileAmericaBurns: Well of course the U.S. gets less for what it spends. That's what happens when the government controls everything.

Do you not understand that the US gets less for what it spends as compared to countries that have public health care systems?

I don't believe that life is all peaches and cream in other countries. I'm not that gullible.

DarnoKonrad: WhileAmericaBurns: Now tell me where my side, the side that wants less government control, is winning?

The United States is the most deregulated in its history. We used to price fix steel in this nation. Control the airlines, set the price of oil. . .a whole slew of government interventions. To pretend in the face of 30 years of unmitigated and unprecedented deregulation that government controls everything is wildly disconnected from reality and symptomatic of everything that is wrong with this nation.

Wow, it's you who are disconnected from reality. If you don't believe that the government has control in almost every aspect of our lives, then there's no point in debating you.

DarnoKonrad: WhileAmericaBurns: Now tell me where my side, the side that wants less government control, is winning?

The United States is the most deregulated in its history. We used to price fix steel in this nation. Control the airlines, set the price of oil. . .a whole slew of government interventions. To pretend in the face of 30 years of unmitigated and unprecedented deregulation that government controls everything is wildly disconnected from reality and symptomatic of everything that is wrong with this nation.

The 1700's disagree with your ranting.

WhileAmericaBurns: That is, you don't have the right to be provided health care by others at the point of a gun.

Who the hell is talking about threatening doctors or the healthcare industry with violent coercion? Excuse me, but could you stuff your argument with more straw.

I don't have to threaten the post master to pick up my mail.

I'm glad Obama's keeping to his word and isn't just more of the same... oh wait...