"One of the greatest things about this (technology)," said Ericsson, "is that it's all Internet-based. Consumers will be delighted when our employees can simply surf to a substation's or generation plant's website to adjust parameters. Nobody will have to be dispatched."

This is what the world needs. controlroom.threemileisland.com.

Remember when traffic lights used to simply have a timer and switch from red to green or green to red every set interval? And remember when they added sensors in the ground to actually sense when cars were waiting...a "smart light" if you will. You know we now spend MORE time on average waiting for lights because while they indeed sense cars WAITING, they fail to sense cars COMING. And one thing we know about traffics is that lights tend to form clumps of cars, so when one car is approaching a light, usually several cars are approaching a light. So, when the light goes green to let one car out, it stops several in order to do it. It's not smart, it's actually stupid.

I expect "smart grids" to work about as well.

I blame environmentalists. I don't know why, but it must be their fault somehow.

Perhaps some traffic light sensors act this way, but I believe that many (if not most) now use the presence of a waiting car to NOT SKIP the next scheduled green. So in these cases you lose nothing compared to a fully-automated "dumb" intersection.

And it is a terrible stretch to compare a traffic grid to an electrical grid, for as you pointed out, there is very, very limited monitoring of car traffic.

Someday soon we're going to regret removing the individual from society.

co-conspirator: Perhaps some traffic light sensors act this way, but I believe that many (if not most) now use the presence of a waiting car to NOT SKIP the next scheduled green. So in these cases you lose nothing compared to a fully-automated "dumb" intersection.

And it is a terrible stretch to compare a traffic grid to an electrical grid, for as you pointed out, there is very, very limited monitoring of car traffic.

My town just installed the latest and greatest computer controlled lights .... They are the slowest most annoying things I have ever cussed at. I hate them. I have started planning routes to avoid them

co-conspirator: Perhaps some traffic light sensors act this way, but I believe that many (if not most) now use the presence of a waiting car to NOT SKIP the next scheduled green. So in these cases you lose nothing compared to a fully-automated "dumb" intersection.

And it is a terrible stretch to compare a traffic grid to an electrical grid, for as you pointed out, there is very, very limited monitoring of car traffic.

The overall point, though, is not so much to compare traffic lights to electrical grids, but the fundamental (what I see as) fallacy that we can understand very complex webs of either traffic or electrical usage, and plan a "smart" system to keep it running more than very basically efficiently.

Just traffic lights don't exist in a vacuum, they each affect each other with the timing of when the cars released from one are going to arrive at the other, it's not too far removed from the electrical grid. Many, many factors affect the routing and usage of, and the availability of, electricity. I simply don't think people understand the patterns enough to make something "smart" that's also "better." As a programmer of 25 years, I know that computers don't know how to do it if the human didn't know how to do it first. I don't think we're smart enough to make "smart" grids.

floor9: "One of the greatest things about this (technology)," said Ericsson, "is that it's all Internet-based. Consumers will be delighted when our employees can simply surf to a substation's or generation plant's website to adjust parameters. Nobody will have to be dispatched."

This is what the world needs. controlroom.threemileisland.com.

And given the level of computer security awareness from your average PUC employee, it should take me about 30 minutes to find a way to access the reactor control system.

Xaneidolon: Someday soon we're going to regret removing the individual from society.

nah - we've been raising the next generation to live in fear and to believe that mindless obedience to stern authority is a virtue. i'm sure this will end well.

We'll replace our energy grid just as soon as we have flying cars.

You know, something we talk about for 50 years and do nothing about.

Whamdangler: I expect "smart grids" to work about as well.

From the in-house development I've seen, they'll be much better. It's actually pretty cool stuff and they're modelling loads and spike usage in a very clever and reasonable way.

/can't tell you about specifics, sorry :(

NewportBarGuy: We'll replace our energy grid just as soon as we have flying cars.

You know, something we talk about for 50 years and do nothing about.

I don't know about you, but some of the 'tards on the road make me worried about having cars at ground level. The thought of these assholes coming at me from all angles is intolerable.

/would love a flying car though :-\ stupid dumb people

...from my sweaty, dead hands.

While I'm all for more responsible use of energy, if they're having trouble with todays loads, what happens when we are charging our electric cars at home?

Xaneidolon: Someday soon we're going to regret removing the individual from society.


The concept of the individual is obsolete.

A lot of folks don't realize this, but the really sucky traffic lights are controlled by an embedded version of Windows ME accessing an access database in c:\MyLights whereas the really useful traffic lights are controlled by Warty Warthog 4.10 accessing a MySQL database in ~lghtd/mylghts

HTH

Just wait till people conserve energy to save money and then power companies raise prices.

Fano wins the thread.

The cure for the electrical problem - local production. Think of all the phantom loads due to instant-on TVs, LED radios, etc. If every home had a small solar panel, this load would be eliminated.

Whamdangler: co-conspirator: Perhaps some traffic light sensors act this way, but I believe that many (if not most) now use the presence of a waiting car to NOT SKIP the next scheduled green. So in these cases you lose nothing compared to a fully-automated "dumb" intersection.

And it is a terrible stretch to compare a traffic grid to an electrical grid, for as you pointed out, there is very, very limited monitoring of car traffic.

The overall point, though, is not so much to compare traffic lights to electrical grids, but the fundamental (what I see as) fallacy that we can understand very complex webs of either traffic or electrical usage, and plan a "smart" system to keep it running more than very basically efficiently.

Just traffic lights don't exist in a vacuum, they each affect each other with the timing of when the cars released from one are going to arrive at the other, it's not too far removed from the electrical grid. Many, many factors affect the routing and usage of, and the availability of, electricity. I simply don't think people understand the patterns enough to make something "smart" that's also "better." As a programmer of 25 years, I know that computers don't know how to do it if the human didn't know how to do it first. I don't think we're smart enough to make "smart" grids.

I disagree actually. I think making a 'smart' grid would be doable, but difficult. What I think would happen is town planner says "Let's have a smart grid, it will be most efficient." And then they realize it's expensive and take a cheaper, less effective smart grid that is shiat, and everyone gets farked. But for traffic anyway I don't doubt that it's possible.

So if my neighbor pulls power from my solar panel, I'll get a credit on my bill, right?

Right?

Majick Thise: My town just installed the latest and greatest computer controlled lights .... They are the slowest most annoying things I have ever cussed at. I hate them. I have started planning routes to avoid them

And thus they have solved the traffic problem!

Majick Thise: My town just installed the latest and greatest computer controlled lights .... They are the slowest most annoying things I have ever cussed at. I hate them. I have started planning routes to avoid them

So they do work, if getting drivers to change routes is one of the goals.

kmmontandon [TotalFark] Quote 2009-06-07 11:30:24 AM
I blame environmentalists. I don't know why, but it must be their fault somehow.


It certainly is their fault in CA because it's the leftist General Assembly who wants the power to cut off your electricity when they think you're used more than your fair share....

and yes, regardless of your ability to pay.

Nowhereman: Just wait till people conserve energy to save money and then power companies raise prices.

Oh that's already happened with the water company. After telling us all to conserve water, useage dropped and they raised prices to make up for their budget shortfall.

I've had this idea for some time:

Make me a device that hangs on the wall that shows *in dollars and cents* how much electricity I've used every billing cycle. Put one in EVERY home. Watch as people learn to conserve. If you cold *see* the money ticking off, people'd learn really really quick.

This can't possibly be necessary, because I read right here on Fark.com that the "boomers" had already ruined everything and consumed everything and that the perfect generations of saints and philanthropists that currently grace the planet don't waste stuff and never spend more than they earn and have abolished thoughtless consumption from their value systems. This is some kind of fake news, right? It has to be.

How long will it take for some mega company to come along and pay the utility X millions of dollars to keep their power on at the expense of Joe Blow's home power?

"Oh, your AC needs to be ramped up MalWart? Sure, we can do that, let me adjust that for you. What? No, the neighborhood won't mind. By using the power we supply, they agreed to this! They don't have a choice! MWAHAHAHA!"

I've had the controls of a thermostat in my area locked up before. Nothing a well-placed heat-lamp couldn't fix.

We have smart lights here. They're incredibly dumb. At an intersection they'll give a green light to the 30 cars waiting but then turn to red at the light 1/4 mile down the road and cause that intersection to back up.

One would think you would clear the traffic in front of you before adding an additional 30 cars to that "section". But nope, nobody thinks. It costs too much.

MemeSlave: The cure for the electrical problem - local production. Think of all the phantom loads due to instant-on TVs, LED radios, etc. If every home had a small solar panel, this load would be eliminated.

I'm a fan of local solar production -- while it usually won't eliminate the requirement for externally-supplied power, it will reduce the requirement.

Additionally, if the solar cells are placed on the roof, they can reduce the cooling load for the building they're installed on. Win-win.

I find it absurd that people here in Arizona will build new buildings (homes, offices, whatever) without solar cells on the roof. Not only do they not take advantage of all the energy falling on their property from the sun, but they also pay more money to have an air conditioner remove that energy (in the form of heat) from their building. Seems silly to me.

We had this at home 25 years ago. Little box on the condensor would shut it down during peak usage in exchange for a substantial reduction on the bill. Didn't cause too much trouble as it normally shut off when no one was home anyway.

They shouldn't be able to control electricity being used. It's what you pay for. What they should do is similar to OnStar: if you have abnormal usage spikes, or if (assuming appliances become "smart" as well) a unit needs maintenance, you should receive a notice so you can investigate. My electric waterheater went apeshiat on me and I didn't know until the following month, after I racked up a $400 water bill because it didn't stop heating water continuously. Edison told me to go fly a kite, so I got royally screwed. Having an alert saying that something is abnormal in your power usage, or more specifically, your waterheater is using 400% the average daily electricity it generally uses, would be a very nice thing to have, and would help save the grid much more than boxes that force your a/c off when it's 110F.

lionfish: I've had this idea for some time:

Make me a device that hangs on the wall that shows *in dollars and cents* how much electricity I've used every billing cycle. Put one in EVERY home. Watch as people learn to conserve. If you cold *see* the money ticking off, people'd learn really really quick.

To be fair, there are devices you can already get for this, also the electric company can give you a lot of info on your usage if you call them. They even make suggestions.

You COULD just raise prices and people will use less, the downside being that it unfairly puts a strain on poor people while the middle class is less affected.

soze: Whamdangler: I expect "smart grids" to work about as well.

From the in-house development I've seen, they'll be much better. It's actually pretty cool stuff and they're modelling loads and spike usage in a very clever and reasonable way.

/can't tell you about specifics, sorry :(

Are they going to be better than the ones VEPCO rolled out about 10 years ago? Those helped reduce electrical usage by shorting out and starting fires in your basement.

At least that's what the tech told us when he came to take it out after we canceled the plan.

The government should, without asking us, put a huge solar panel on the roof of any building that is not home residence. Offices, apartment buildings, and so forth. Hell offer an option to have one put on your home as well. Have the money come from subsidies the government pays for electricity currently.

http://www.constantconservative.com/2009/electricity-subsidies

This would not only all but eliminate the short term (3-5 year) energy crisis, it would create tons of jobs, allow different technologies to be tested in real time on various scales, and create a measurable impact on consumption. The only downside would be getting people to agree that the government should be a part of the activity directly, rather than simply "letting the free market decide".

Daniels: So if my neighbor pulls power from my solar panel, I'll get a credit on my bill, right?

Right?

of course you will, your check will be in the mail, along with the one you will get for your tax money bailing out corporations when they recover. We promise, the check is in the mail.

Alleyoop: I've had the controls of a thermostat in my area locked up before. Nothing a well-placed heat-lamp couldn't fix.

This. Used to do this where I used to work and head office controlled the AC settings. Just put something hot under the thermostat and hey presto!

Whamdangler: Remember when traffic lights used to simply have a timer and switch from red to green or green to red every set interval? And remember when they added sensors in the ground to actually sense when cars were waiting...a "smart light" if you will. You know we now spend MORE time on average waiting for lights because while they indeed sense cars WAITING, they fail to sense cars COMING. And one thing we know about traffics is that lights tend to form clumps of cars, so when one car is approaching a light, usually several cars are approaching a light. So, when the light goes green to let one car out, it stops several in order to do it. It's not smart, it's actually stupid.

I expect "smart grids" to work about as well.

Also, if you have the misfortune of being a solo motorcyclist trying to get a green light at a busy intersection you could be there forever.. or until a car comes up behind you.

Many of the sensors don't register the mass of a motorcycle to be enough to trip the light.

Weaver95: floor9: "One of the greatest things about this (technology)," said Ericsson, "is that it's all Internet-based. Consumers will be delighted when our employees can simply surf to a substation's or generation plant's website to adjust parameters. Nobody will have to be dispatched."

This is what the world needs. controlroom.threemileisland.com.

And given the level of computer security awareness from your average PUC employee, it should take me about 30 minutes to find a way to access the reactor control system.

no doubt, when will they learn the nerds are always a step ahead

lionfish: I've had this idea for some time:

Make me a device that hangs on the wall that shows *in dollars and cents* how much electricity I've used every billing cycle. Put one in EVERY home. Watch as people learn to conserve. If you cold *see* the money ticking off, people'd learn really really quick.

My typical electric bill might be $110 per month.

That's about $3.60 per day, or about 15 cents per hour. 1 cent every 4 minutes.

If I had a device that showed 1 penny ticking away every 4 minutes, this would NOT make me more likely to conserve. Because a penny is virtually worthless. When I get pennies in change at a store, I dump them into the "take a penny leave a penny" tray.

I'm certainly not going to go, "Uhoh, I better turn off my air conditioner and sweat like a pig in this sweltering hot summer, because I'm losing pennies!"

This is another feature of the new and whiney America, the belief that nothing new will ever work.

When did people start getting so fearful of innovation and improving technology. This vast paranoia of big brother is a little disconcerting, BB is now trying to sneak into your home through your utility service?

This is a step towards modernizing the electrical grid, in a number of other countries, power outages only last seconds before they are corrected by smart grids.

Once again, our fear of anything changing is leaving us further and further behind.

Human beings are animals, fit only to be ruled.

Good - Smart Grid notifies your A/C that the price of power is about to rise due to demand, your A/c checks the settings YOU set to decide if it should change the thermostat, shut off, or keep pumping out the coolness.

Bad - Smart Grid controls your A/C and lowers/shuts it off whether you like it or not.

Alleyoop: I've had the controls of a thermostat in my area locked up before. Nothing a well-placed heat-lamp couldn't fix.

I don't often use this word, but Mr.Alleyoop, you are a hero.

heypete: I find it absurd that people here in Arizona will build new buildings (homes, offices, whatever) without solar cells on the roof. Not only do they not take advantage of all the energy falling on their property from the sun, but they also pay more money to have an air conditioner remove that energy (in the form of heat) from their building. Seems silly to me.

It is silly (in a place like Arizona), but unless you're willing to enforce it, most people will look at the extra price tag associated with solar and short term savings will trump long term savings for many many people.

Alleyoop: I've had the controls of a thermostat in my area locked up before. Nothing a well-placed heat-lamp couldn't fix.


You sir, are a genius

As long as the jackass doesn't own the water company when I'm paying my electric bill, it's okay.

/Farkin' double sixes

All Apologies: This is another feature of the new and whiney America, the belief that nothing new will ever work.

When did people start getting so fearful of innovation and improving technology. This vast paranoia of big brother is a little disconcerting, BB is now trying to sneak into your home through your utility service?

This is a step towards modernizing the electrical grid, in a number of other countries, power outages only last seconds before they are corrected by smart grids.

Once again, our fear of anything changing is leaving us further and further behind.

wow, it's almost as if you imposed your view of peoples opposition, w/o the benefit of actually reading their concerns. I don't think you need an opposing party to wage a heated arguement, you seem to have all of the needed groups in your own head

Weaver95: Oh that's already happened with the water company. After telling us all to conserve water, useage dropped and they raised prices to make up for their budget shortfall.

Sometimes I'm glad the city owns all the utilities but at the same time there isn't any competition.

This story is a repeat of a repeat of a repeat.