Well that would seem to prove he's a Catholic.

beve: Well that would seem to prove he's a Catholic.

hahahahahaha--snort--hahahahahahaha

Sounds about right.

Wait, the President seems to have a nuanced worldview? He doesn't just blame certain nations for all the world's problems, but instead admits there might be two sides to every disagreement?

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

I wonder what would happen if Israel lost US backing? Do you think they'd step up their US espionage, or would they just redouble their lobbying efforts?

Weaver95: I wonder what would happen if Israel lost US backing? Do you think they'd step up their US espionage, or would they just redouble their lobbying efforts?

both.

Gonz: Wait, the President seems to have a nuanced worldview? He doesn't just blame certain nations for all the world's problems, but instead admits there might be two sides to every disagreement?

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

I know! He's making black people look smart, and there is no way any God-fearing 'murikins should stand for it!

The article lost me at:

As if to show absolute even-handedness, he allowed that while some Islamic countries have had women as national leaders, "the struggle for women's equality continues in many aspects of American life."

That's rich coming from the man who defeated Hillary Clinton.

...and then brought her on board as Secretary of State. Really, is he supposed to not comment on women's rights in the United States because he defeated a woman in the election? He has no right because somehow he's "keeping women down" by defeating her?

That's as dumb as saying "Oh, there is no more racism because we have a black President."

You mean that morality is not determined solely by nationalistic pride? What's this world coming to?

It bothers me so much that any lack of unequivocal, blind support for Israel is tantamount to rabid antisemitism in so many fundies' twisted minds.

There is plenty of blame to go around...

Pastor of Muppets: It bothers me so much that any lack of unequivocal, blind support for Israel is tantamount to rabid antisemitism in so many fundies' twisted minds.

I'm not so certain that Israel and US have the same goals in the middle east. And if we don't have the same goals, why continue to support them? What's in it for the USA?

Weaver95: What's in it for the USA?

Bagels.

eqtworld: Just like the Holy Roman Empire, the British Empire, others over the last 1500 years, the USA wants a stake in the holy land..

Ok, so lets do what everyone in europe did when THEY tried to take the holy land - scoop up all our troublemakers, empty the prisons, grab all the unemployed - put all of them on troop transports, give them a bunch of old guns that are just sitting around gathering dust and dump them into the desert. tell 'em they get to keep whatever they find. Then air drop large pallets of food, ammo and all the drugs we've confiscated over the previous 2 years on top of that beach AFTER the troop transports have cleared the landing zone.

book it. done. And Israel gets all the free cannon fodder they'd ever want.

eqtworld: I just hope the Arabs will get back to hating Israel and forget about trying to bomb their financial backers and weapons suppliers.

I'm waiting for them to figure out the connection between corporations and the US government. Sure, it's hard to bomb military targets with terrorist strikes. And it's getting more difficult to go after civilian targets (not to mention it's not politically wise)...but if they wiped out a few key server farms during the height of day trading, or sunk a few cargo ships....that would start costing people serious money. And as a rule, corporate installations aren't nearly as well defended.

Weaver95: I'm not so certain that Israel and US have the same goals in the middle east. And if we don't have the same goals, why continue to support them? What's in it for the USA?

they don't, really. I know there's some groups of christians who are convinced that the end of days is coming up, and coming soon, and that Israel will be the battleground. So of course, they insist on keeping it in Jewish hands. And make sure they give the money and attention to make sure it happens.

Israeli's on the other hand, say "SUCKERS!" and take the money, since they don't believe that thats going to happen, but who's going to refuse money?

I'm not sure which is filled with more Waaargarble.
The actual article written by a man name Goodwin, or some of the responses here.

Why are we hoping that Arabs attack the jews instead of us? Why are we even thinking of abandoning the one of the few stable countries in the middle east?

What I hope for is that the President words leads to more people talking...and perhaps in a few decades they can hammer out something that will bring peace to that particular area.

I'm not so naive to think that the world will change over night...but for those of us who was born during the cold war, NEVER expected both sides just to agree to walk away from the war.

It is possible: We just have to keep pushing till we convince other people that it's possible.

Weaver95: I wonder what would happen if Israel lost US backing? Do you think they'd step up their US espionage, or would they just redouble their lobbying efforts?

If Israel looses their backing I would hope that Egypt and other other countries in the region loose theirs. Otherwise the US would catch just as much flack for "favoring" one side over the other. Cut them all off and if people really feel that bad they can donate their own money to wherever they want to.

On another note, Israel was under heavy embargo for years and still managed to beat the Arabs 6 ways to Sunday with obsolete and/or domestically produced equipment.

I'm not so naive to think that the world will change over night...but for those of us who was born during the cold war, NEVER expected both sides just to agree to walk away from the war.

I grew up during the Cold War, like a lot of people here, and that is not how it happened.

Nobody walked away. One side couldn't cover its overhead and expenses, and keep up with expansion and maintenance anymore. One side's government actually collapsed.

he's right.

Nuh uh!! It's only the "Axis of Evil". Every other country, especially, 'merkica, is awesome and can do no wrong.

Damn you, Kim Jong Il!!!!1

I don't have a problem with reasonable criticism of Israel, but I do have a problem with singling out Israel for harsher demand and treatment while playing softball with those around Israel.

If the Obama administration was as vehement to ask Hamas to stop the violence and drop their weapons as they are to ask Israelis to avoid adding a second story to their homes so they can accomodate their children or build schools inside of settlements that Israel is slated to keep, as was agreed with the US government during the last administration, I'd be fine with his demands.

eqtworld: The Arabs don't give a f*ck about anything but the land itself not being under Jewish control.

totally false.

"Exactly a year before his Cairo speech, on June 4, 2008, candidate Obama told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee he would "never force Israel to the negotiating table" or to make "concessions."

Well, ya, but he was trying to get elected, dah.

Clinton was afraid to push Israel too hard when it came to the peace process, and he was late starting that last push towards an agreement that was ultimately rejected and things looked dim when Bush arrived on the scene.

GWB didn't seem to give a rat's patoot until it was far far too late in the game, which is saying something considering he had two terms. Clinton was late enough, GWB might as well have not tried at all for all the impact the repeated envoys had.

Obama actually has the look of someone who will call Israel on their shenanigans.

Does this mean we can stop playing referee in conflicts that have nothing to do with and won't end until they kill each other Lando and G'kar like?

Tatsuma: I don't have a problem with reasonable criticism of Israel, but I do have a problem with singling out Israel for harsher demand and treatment while playing softball with those around Israel.

I was hoping they'd play Cricket.
And is it a harsher demand to expect Israel to oblige by something more akin to the 1967 border?

Tatsuma: blah blah blah

I predict many words and much time will be wasted on you in this thread, which is a shame, because those were perfectly good words and perfectly good time that could have been better-used elsewhere doing something useful, like talking to a wall.

If you want to respond to Tatsuma, I have some advice for you: go outside. Fark your wife. Get blind drunk. Write that novel you've been putting off. Watch some porn. Smash your head against a brick wall. Almost nothing would be a worse use of your time.

verbaltoxin: Nobody walked away. One side couldn't cover its overhead and expenses, and keep up with expansion and maintenance anymore.

Wait, are we talking about the Soviet Union in 1989 or the USA right now?

Off-hand, I'm not really aware of major malfeasance by Monaco.

SilentStrider: Weaver95: I know there's some groups of christians who are convinced that the end of days is coming up, and coming soon, and that Israel will be the battleground. So of course, they insist on keeping it in Jewish hands. And make sure they give the money and attention to make sure it happens.

Israeli's on the other hand, say "SUCKERS!" and take the money, since they don't believe that thats going to happen, but who's jews going to refuse money?

/ftfy
//sorry, couldn't help myself

Tatsuma: I don't have a problem with reasonable criticism of Israel, but I do have a problem with singling out Israel for harsher demand and treatment while playing softball with those around Israel.

If the Obama administration was as vehement to ask Hamas to stop the violence and drop their weapons as they are to ask Israelis to avoid adding a second story to their homes so they can accomodate their children or build schools inside of settlements that Israel is slated to keep, as was agreed with the US government during the last administration, I'd be fine with his demands.

I apologize but this should be used in every thread that Tatsuma posts in.

before Palestinians recognize Israel's right to exist

And that of course means all of them.


And people wonder why Israeli apologists get labeled as bigots. You can't demand people do something unless they have a political framework to operate in.


Palestinians are a unrepresented mass within a prison -- with absolutely ZERO political power to guide their future. To talk about them as a collective entity, with no collective structure is sheer stupidity -- and banal bigotry at worst.

one of 3 things are going to happen.

1) Palestinians will be a marginalized *majority* for the foreseeable future, leading to violence extremism and death for decades to come.

2) They will get their own state, a real state, with power over their own air space and boarders which will lead to a defacto war between Isreal and Palestine for decades to come.

3) Israelis and Palestinians will integrate their miserably asses and marginalize the extremists to form a single secular democratic state with severe challenges ahead.

Tatsuma: I don't have a problem with reasonable criticism of Israel

Gonz: Wait, the President seems to have a nuanced worldview? He doesn't just blame certain nations for all the world's problems, but instead admits there might be two sides to every disagreement?

THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!

This is the only thing that might guarantee a Republican victory in 2012. Obama needs to realize there is only one right side to any issue, and that's the side that America is on.

DarnoKonrad: 3) Israelis and Palestinians will integrate their miserably asses and marginalize the extremists to form a single secular democratic state with severe challenges ahead.

I foresee this leading to a civil war.

I love the fear mongering of the right. the new meme is that Obama is going to take over the t.v. and radio waves.and fill them with propaganda.

That's just what we don't need is another Rupert Murdoch and Rush Limbaugh.

James F. Campbell: DarnoKonrad: 3) Israelis and Palestinians will integrate their miserably asses and marginalize the extremists to form a single secular democratic state with severe challenges ahead.

I foresee this leading to a civil war.

If South Africa and the United States can do it, they can.

eqtworld: They kidnapped Grace Kelly

Rainier had excellent taste



rawr.

Tatsuma: I don't have a problem with reasonable criticism of Israel, but I do have a problem with singling out Israel for harsher demand and treatment while playing softball with those around Israel.

If the Obama administration was as vehement to ask Hamas to stop the violence and drop their weapons as they are to ask Israelis to avoid adding a second story to their homes so they can accomodate their children or build schools inside of settlements that Israel is slated to keep, as was agreed with the US government during the last administration, I'd be fine with his demands

I'm sorry but that was just farking stupid Tats. Yes, we should have more say in what Israel does and be more demanding of Israel than we are of Hamas. Firstly, we don't send Hamas money and weapons and there is no 'Pro-Hamas' lobby despite what republicans have to say about Obama. Secondly, aren't Israeli's supposed to be better than Hamas? If you want to say that you're both at the same level, that's fine, but that means you're equally to blame for this mess.

FlashHarry: i44.tinypic.com

You know, stuff like "you don't hit Hamas hard enough" or "those repressive anti-settler politicians should not behave that way" Criticism of Israeli policy is not inherently anti-semitism. I have myself plenty of problems with plenty of actions that the Israeli government undertakes. For example, littering Lebanon in the last few days of the war with cluster bombs. There and then the people who made that decision should have been fired at the very least.

Crosshair: On another note, Israel was under heavy embargo for years and still managed to beat the Arabs 6 ways to Sunday with obsolete and/or domestically produced equipment.

Because the US airdropped them emergency supplies when they were on the verge of getting crushed by the Soviet backed Arab forces.

Inescapable Future of Humanity: Firstly, we don't send Hamas money and weapons and there is no 'Pro-Hamas' lobby despite what republicans have to say about Obama.

What do you think the $900M sent to Gaza for "reconstruction" will be used for?

Inescapable Future of Humanity: Secondly, aren't Israeli's supposed to be better than Hamas?

We are better than Hamas, but "turn the other cheek" isn't part of Judaism. Don't expect peace as long as Israeli feel threatened by terrorism.

Fact is, outside of all the rhetoric and political games, the overwhelming majority of Israelis, whether left-wing or right-wing, will not agree to a palestinian state if they believe that it will lead to all of Israel receiving the Sderot treatment.

Building inside the limits of already existing settlements isn't the biggest obstacle to peace. Terrorism is.

Israel is actually a lot guilty, but our center-right president would never admit that.

verbaltoxin: Nobody walked away. One side couldn't cover its overhead and expenses, and keep up with expansion and maintenance anymore. One side's government actually collapsed.

And the other side was so distraught at not having an enemy anymore that they traipsed off to the Middle East to kill some Arabs until China was strong enough to put up a good fight.

Tatsuma: I don't have a problem with reasonable criticism of Israel, but I do have a problem with singling out Israel for harsher demand and treatment while playing softball with those around Israel.



That's because you seem to think that any criticism of Israel AT ALL is "singling them out" because it doesn't mention how bad Jews have had it up till now. Nobody is or has been playing softball with the enemies of Israel so far as I can tell, now or in the past.

This isn't some zero-sum game where Israel can only win if everyone else loses; and Israel can't keep countering suggestions they might be overstepping their limits with "Well, what about all the bad things the Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah/space aliens have done to us?" We KNOW bad things have happened to Israel. People have been working to prevent that. Now maybe it's time Israel stopped blaming their need for violence on everyone else and accepted that they've been as imperialistic as any other nation.

Nations want to expand their borders. That's what they do. Only Israel has been allowed to get away with whining "But they're worse than us so we should be able to do what we want!" for the last 60 years when they do it. Now it's time to stop.

DarnoKonrad: 1) Palestinians will be a marginalized *majority* for the foreseeable future, leading to violence extremism and death for decades to come.

2) They will get their own state, a real state, with power over their own air space and boarders which will lead to a defacto war between Isreal and Palestine for decades to come.

3) Israelis and Palestinians will integrate their miserably asses and marginalize the extremists to form a single secular democratic state with severe challenges ahead.

Of the 3, I pick #2.

Gyrfalcon: That's because you seem to think that any criticism of Israel AT ALL is "singling them out" because it doesn't mention how bad Jews have had it up till now.

Nice straw man, here. Keep propping them up, I'm sure you'll best them all!

Gyrfalcon: Nobody is or has been playing softball with the enemies of Israel so far as I can tell, now or in the past.

Take Iran. Obama has made it very clear that there is absolutely no threat of military action if they do keep on trying to develop a nuclear weapon. That's playing softball.

Tatsuma: Gyrfalcon:

Take Iran. Obama has made it very clear that there is absolutely no threat of military action if they do keep on trying to develop a nuclear weapon. That's playing softball.



What? I don't recall anything of that nature ever being said.