If they don't make money off letting people die, the socialists will win.

And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Churchill2004: And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Congress hasn't limited their efforts to JUST those market sectors either, but that's a discussion for another time.

*sigh*

not that it matters. all this stuff gets done behind closed doors and then we all get to pay through the nose while guys in $2000 suits tell us how we should be thanking them for all their efforts.

Get over it.

They managed to sink health insurance reform under Clinton, and they may succeed again.

Weaver95: Churchill2004: And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Congress hasn't limited their efforts to JUST those market sectors either, but that's a discussion for another time.

*sigh*

not that it matters. all this stuff gets done behind closed doors and then we all get to pay through the nose while guys in $2000 suits tell us how we should be thanking them for all their efforts.

Well, if we don't thank them they might just go to some gulch somewhere.

Free market!!


Wait....

TheRaven7: Weaver95: Churchill2004: And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Congress hasn't limited their efforts to JUST those market sectors either, but that's a discussion for another time.

*sigh*

not that it matters. all this stuff gets done behind closed doors and then we all get to pay through the nose while guys in $2000 suits tell us how we should be thanking them for all their efforts.

Well, if we don't thank them they might just go to some gulch somewhere.

It's amazing how relevant Atlas Shrugged is these days, isn't it?

Weaver95: TheRaven7: Weaver95: Churchill2004: And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Congress hasn't limited their efforts to JUST those market sectors either, but that's a discussion for another time.

*sigh*

not that it matters. all this stuff gets done behind closed doors and then we all get to pay through the nose while guys in $2000 suits tell us how we should be thanking them for all their efforts.

Well, if we don't thank them they might just go to some gulch somewhere.

It's amazing how relevant Atlas Shrugged is these days, isn't it?

I was making fun of you. Wow, nevermind.

Weaver95: It's amazing how relevant Atlas Shrugged is these days, isn't it?

Stop trying to claim that Atlas Shrugged is or ever has been relevant. It is a pipe dream for people who don't understand how society works.

TheRaven7: Well, if we don't thank them they might just go to some gulch somewhere

You couldn't be more completely wrong in identifying who would be the villains and who would be the heroes in an Ayn Rand novel. Hint: she didn't glorify businessmen who made a profit by pulling the levers of political power.

Churchill2004: TheRaven7: Well, if we don't thank them they might just go to some gulch somewhere

You couldn't be more completely wrong in identifying who would be the villains and who would be the heroes in an Ayn Rand novel. Hint: she didn't glorify businessmen who made a profit by pulling the levers of political power.

They did it for their own self-interest. Therefore it is ethical.

ilambiquated: They managed to sink health insurance reform under Clinton, and they may will succeed again.

/ftfy

Faddy: Weaver95: It's amazing how relevant Atlas Shrugged is these days, isn't it?

Stop trying to claim that Atlas Shrugged is or ever has been relevant. It is a pipe dream for people who don't understand how society works.

I wouldn't be so sure. Some of what Rand wrote about in Atlas Shrugged is happening right now.

Not saying that's where society is going mind you, but there are some parallels out there. And you don't even have to go very far to find them.

Faddy: Weaver95: It's amazing how relevant Atlas Shrugged is these days, isn't it?

Stop trying to claim that Atlas Shrugged is or ever has been relevant. It is a pipe dream for people who don't understand how society works.

It has many, many flaws, as did its author. But one thing she did hit square on the head was the interaction between craven, rent-seeking businessmen and self-aggrandizing politicians and that they are both enemies of free enterprise.

TheRaven7: They did it for their own self-interest. Therefore it is ethical

That's exactly the type of gross simplification and distortion of your opponent's argument that Ayn Rand was so often guilty of. Feel free to attack what the woman said and did, but to pretend she liked big businessmen who made corrupt deals with the state is simply dishonest. Such characters were the primary villains in her self-written bible, as opposed to the self-interested, but just as important in her eyes, self-reliant heroes like Galt.

I want a pony, rainbow and oxycontin.

Churchill2004: TheRaven7: They did it for their own self-interest. Therefore it is ethical

That's exactly the type of gross simplification and distortion of your opponent's argument that Ayn Rand was so often guilty of. Feel free to attack what the woman said and did, but to pretend she liked big businessmen who made corrupt deals with the state is simply dishonest. Such characters were the primary villains in her self-written bible, as opposed to the self-interested, but just as important in her eyes, self-reliant heroes like Galt.

John Galt led all those rich businessmen to his gulch so they could live without all those inconsiderate leeches that didn't recognize their contributions.

Ignore the rhetoric. The suits don't want actual free trade. Capitalists from day one have sought out monopolies, government subsidy, and regulation against competition.

The gap between theory and actually existing capitalism has always been enormous. The Randists are just as idiotic as the Trots selling their daily worker bullcrap.

Churchill2004: And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Congress is full of cheap whores. Businessmen never want free competition regardless of what they claim.

Weaver95: TheRaven7: Weaver95: Churchill2004: And Congress has been obliging them by killing competition and market forces in the healthcare/insurance industry for decades.

Congress hasn't limited their efforts to JUST those market sectors either, but that's a discussion for another time.

*sigh*

not that it matters. all this stuff gets done behind closed doors and then we all get to pay through the nose while guys in $2000 suits tell us how we should be thanking them for all their efforts.

Well, if we don't thank them they might just go to some gulch somewhere.

It's amazing how relevant Atlas Shrugged is these days, isn't it?

Unreadable magical thinking is always relevant :-)

TheRaven7: John Galt led all those rich businessmen to his gulch so they could live without all those inconsiderate leeches that didn't recognize their contributions

Right. Which is the exact opposite of begging the government to take over your business and give you money.

Bucky Katt: Ignore the rhetoric. The suits don't want actual free trade. Capitalists from day one have sought out monopolies, government subsidy, and regulation against competition.

The gap between theory and actually existing capitalism has always been enormous. The Randists are just as idiotic as the Trots selling their daily worker bullcrap.

What you just said was one of Ayn Rand's biggest points- that's why she called capitalism an "unknown ideal", that what we have today and have had historically isn't properly labeled as such.

Bucky Katt: Unreadable magical thinking is always relevant :-)

Let's leave the Bible out of this.

snarkysedai: photos.imageevent.com

Atlas Shrugged repeatedly glorified its heroes doing manual labor. I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book, but this one just doesn't make sense. It flies in the face of what she actually wrote.

Churchill2004: I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book

Starting with the fact that she couldn't write her way out of a wet paper sack.

Ace Frehley's Ghost: Churchill2004: I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book

Starting with the fact that she couldn't write her way out of a wet paper sack.

The logic is that if Ayn Rand was in a wet paper sack the Free Market would get her out.

If we don't have the most expensive, least efficient healthcare on the planet...the terrorists will win

Churchill2004: snarkysedai: photos.imageevent.com

Atlas Shrugged repeatedly glorified its heroes doing manual labor. I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book, but this one just doesn't make sense. It flies in the face of what she actually wrote.

My impression of Atlas Shrugged was of the heroes being too good to do manual labor. YMMV.

Also, a large portion of the people who hold Atlas Shrugged up to be a bastion of the way things should be run aren't the people Rand seemed to have written the book for. It's all good to go Galt if your highest job to date is cashier at Taco Bell, because there is somebody else standing in line behind you who wants that paycheck.

Plus it is a funny comic :P

Ace Frehley's Ghost: Churchill2004: I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book

Starting with the fact that she couldn't write her way out of a wet paper sack.

Good god yes. She's the kind of writer that would have benefited enormously from a co-author or at least a heavy-handed editor. She could conceive of fairly decent plot arcs, but her prose and characters were abysmally dull and repeatitve.

Weaver95: I wouldn't be so sure. Some of what Rand wrote about in Atlas Shrugged is happening right now.

And some of the shiat that James Blish wrote about is coming true, but that does not mean that Capitan Kirk gets to fark a blue alien.

Falcc: Ace Frehley's Ghost: Churchill2004: I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book

Starting with the fact that she couldn't write her way out of a wet paper sack.

The logic is that if Ayn Rand was in a wet paper sack the Free Market would get her out.

While the rest of us sat around and hoped she'd suffocate?

Churchill2004:
Good god yes. She's the kind of writer that would have benefited enormously from a co-author or at least a heavy-handed editor. She could conceive of fairly decent plot arcs, but her prose and characters were abysmally dull and repeatitve.

The only reason I finished The Fountainhead was because I wasn't going to let that hack writer beat me. I've read stuff that was written worse, but I don't think I've read anything drier or less interesting with the most one-dimensional characters.

/and I've read some serious harlequin stuff

snarkysedai: My impression of Atlas Shrugged was of the heroes being too good to do manual labor. YMMV.

What? At several points heroes in her books (Howard Roark, Francisco d'Anconcia, John Galt) took low-paying menial jobs, many of them after they were already rich.

As for who ended up liking her books, you can't really blame her for that.

snarkysedai: The only reason I finished The Fountainhead was because I wasn't going to let that hack writer beat me. I've read stuff that was written worse, but I don't think I've read anything drier or less interesting with the most one-dimensional characters.

/and I've read some serious harlequin stuff

To a degree that was deliberate. She said that the characters in her books were all abstract ideals, not real-world people. Allegorical tales lend themselves to flat characters. Candide comes to mind, though of course it was much better written than Atlas Shrugged. Ayn Rand was no Voltaire by any means.

Churchill2004: snarkysedai: My impression of Atlas Shrugged was of the heroes being too good to do manual labor. YMMV.

What? At several points heroes in her books (Howard Roark, Francisco d'Anconcia, John Galt) took low-paying menial jobs, many of them after they were already rich.

As for who ended up liking her books, you can't really blame her for that.

I will be honest and say I never read it. The Fountainhead really, REALLY turned me off her stuff. I have read some criticisms about it, though, which is where I drew my impressions.

I won't read that thing for money.

If a "public option" would be good for health care, what about everything else? A "public option" for food stores, clothing, television sets, plumbing fixtures, etc.? We've already got a head start on government ownership of car companies. If one set of businesses is going to have to compete against taxpayer-subsidized entities, why not all of them?

/Don't forget the 5-year plans, comrade

snarkysedai: Falcc: Ace Frehley's Ghost: Churchill2004: I'm not saying there aren't many legitimate criticisms of Rand and that book

Starting with the fact that she couldn't write her way out of a wet paper sack.

The logic is that if Ayn Rand was in a wet paper sack the Free Market would get her out.

While the rest of us sat around and hoped she'd suffocate?

The invisible hand moves in mysterious ways. Sometimes it's gotta smack a biatch. That's how the marketplace of ideas operate. We can all WANT Ayn Rand to have been stuffed in a wet paper sack, just like we can all WANT to afford reasonable quality healthcare, but these are just ideas. Whereas a writer who clearly knew nothing about writing, economics, social psychology, or history being regarded as the pinnacle of good sense by certain voters and everyone being shafted by super expensive insurance companies that try to find all sorts of ways never to pay out is reality. We're being biatchslapped by the invisible hand of the free market, and there's no better alternative on earth, because socialism would involve using the word socialism, which we all know is bad.

It is not simply a matter of being anti-competitive, it is the simple reality that government sponsored health programs play by a special set of rules.

In my experience, I've seen what government entities are willing to pay for medical services as opposed to what they actually cost. Judging by the expense of MediCare and MediCal, I'd too would be freaked out as a healthcare provider knowing that I would take even greater losses for services with no recourse.

Falcc: because socialism would involve using the word socialism, which we all know is bad.

It is?

snarkysedai: I will be honest and say I never read it. The Fountainhead really, REALLY turned me off her stuff. I have read some criticisms about it, though, which is where I drew my impressions.

I won't read that thing for money.

Everyone I know who's read both, including myself, will say that the Fountainhead was the better of the two. It's also much less political.

If you want an actually enjoyable version of a Rand novel, see the film version of the Fountainhead. Gary Cooper plays Howard Roark, and though Ayn Rand stormed onto the set and literally forced them to film a seven-minute speech to the jury for the climax, for the most part the story greatly benefited from the pruning necessary to bring it down to a manageable length.

John Dewey: Falcc: because socialism would involve using the word socialism, which we all know is bad.

It is?

Yep. Socialism means that the government is going to take your guns.

Just ask my father-in-law.

Ace Frehley's Ghost: Yep. Socialism means that the government is going to take your guns.

I thought it meant they were going to take your guns, take them apart, and give the different pieces to poor people so they can put the guns back together and kill us all.

chapman: It is not simply a matter of being anti-competitive,

Given that the entities in question don't care for the free market, it's not like it much matters. Adam Smith would pummel insurance executives the second they even uttered anything about free markets.

jjorsett: /Don't forget the 5-year plans, comrade

Go read The Wealth of Nations and find out what a free market is. Then go read Dak Kapital and find out what communism actually was supposed to be. Then come back to us with your tail between your legs.

I cannot form an opinion on this article without first knowing what the 'public option' is.

Dak Kapital

that would be Das Kapital

John Dewey: Ace Frehley's Ghost: Yep. Socialism means that the government is going to take your guns.

I thought it meant they were going to take your guns, take them apart, and give the different pieces to poor people so they can put the guns back together and kill us all.

Ethnic minorities... My FIL is a under-middle-class white guy.

Churchill2004:
Everyone I know who's read both, including myself, will say that the Fountainhead was the better of the two. It's also much less political.

Dear god, and the thing was wretched.

If you want an actually enjoyable version of a Rand novel, see the film version of the Fountainhead. Gary Cooper plays Howard Roark, and though Ayn Rand stormed onto the set and literally forced them to film a seven-minute speech to the jury for the climax, for the most part the story greatly benefited from the pruning necessary to bring it down to a manageable length.

I'll just skip that, thank you =) The less I have to do with her, the better. There are so many better movies to watch, and so many better books to read, so why waste time with that load of crap?

/excuse me, I have a never-ending book series to finish ;)

Ace Frehley's Ghost: Ethnic minorities... My FIL is a under-middle-class white guy.

*shakes head* Why do people continue to vote against their own interests? He'd be helped even more than I would by a single payer system.

Falcc:

The invisible hand moves in mysterious ways. Sometimes it's gotta smack a biatch. That's how the marketplace of ideas operate. We can all WANT Ayn Rand to have been stuffed in a wet paper sack, just like we can all WANT to afford reasonable quality healthcare, but these are just ideas. Whereas a writer who clearly knew nothing about writing, economics, social psychology, or history being regarded as the pinnacle of good sense by certain voters and everyone being shafted by super expensive insurance companies that try to find all sorts of ways never to pay out is reality. We're being biatchslapped by the invisible hand of the free market, and there's no better alternative on earth, because socialism would involve using the word socialism, which we all know is bad.

Well, you know what they say about invisible hands.

/does not understand why socialism is bad
//quite looking forward to it, actually
///social security