Jesus Christ, but these are some goddamn stupid scholars.

"bulldg4life" urges those "scholars" to "stfu"

We should start sending cards to the countries who's asses we've kicked.

Not apology cards. I'm not sorry. Something hip and funny with that old lady on Hallmark cards.

Roman Fyseek: We should start sending cards to the countries who's asses we've kicked.

Especially when we celebrate those countries' holidays. ;)

Seriously, though, I don't mind sharing our holiday with Yankees, but don't try to keep us from honoring our dead after you (well, not YOU, RF)co-opted the holiday, either.

Memorial Day honors all American war dead. Were the confederates Americans? Did they die in war? Then they fit the criteria. STFU, "scholars".

Occam's Chainsaw: Memorial Day honors all American war dead. Were the confederates Americans? Did they die in war? Then they fit the criteria. STFU, "scholars".

I have to agree with this.

Flying the Confederate battle flag over the statehouse, no, But this is different.

Occam's Chainsaw: Were the confederates Americans?

They died trying not to be, didn't they?

For reference: Confederate Memorial Days in various states. (new window)

And when they say scholars, I'm sure a handful of angry professors buried somewhere in their department are trying to make a name for themselves. In our history department, I know of one really racist professor who might have supported something like this, but I also know another professor (with a serious hard-on for Lincoln, oddly) who would say it's important to remember vernacular cultural traditions like Confederate Memorial Day.

Again, for everyone that posts in a Confederate culture thread; I cannot stress enough to find a copy of Confederate Symbols in the Contemporary South.

Guy Innagorillasuit: They died trying not to be, didn't they?

Categorically false. Did they die trying to establish the Confederate States of Europe? Or maybe the Confederate States of Africa? Just because they rebelled against a federal government perceived as tyrannical (for right or wrong) does not mean they lived on a different continent. They lived and died as Americans, make no mistake.

Hell, if there's one American tradition that continues to this day, it's the willingness to shoot someone over taxes.

Guy Innagorillasuit: They died trying not to be, didn't they?

Nope. The wanted to be Confederate Americans, not Union Americans. They considered themselves the true heirs to George Washington and the Founding Fathers, in fact.

Next they are going to demand that the President stop laying a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Klansman.

NeauxFear: Guy Innagorillasuit: They died trying not to be, didn't they?

Categorically false. Did they die trying to establish the Confederate States of Europe? Or maybe the Confederate States of Africa? Just because they rebelled against a federal government perceived as tyrannical (for right or wrong) does not mean they lived on a different continent. They lived and died as Americans, make no mistake.

Hell, if there's one American tradition that continues to this day, it's the willingness to shoot someone over taxes.

I meant United States of America Americans, not North Americans.

KellyLockhart: Guy Innagorillasuit: They died trying not to be, didn't they?

Nope. The wanted to be Confederate Americans, not Union Americans. They considered themselves the true heirs to George Washington and the Founding Fathers, in fact.

I'll use a /sarcasm tag next time.

bronyaur1: Next they are going to demand that the President stop laying a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Klansman.

You laugh, but Arlington Natl Cemetery is Robert E Lee's old plantation estate. It was used as a US military field headquarters and hospital during the war, and many bodies were buried on the grounds after dying there. SO many, in fact, that Lee felt that they should not be disturbed and reinterred elsewhere.

In effect, we have Arlington as a public monument because "Marse Bob" donated the plantation and house to form the Arlington National Cemetery. There were some assholes who led the rebels simply because they sought glory or wealth (Beauregard and Bragg come to mind). Then there were men like Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson who were rare heroes, whosever side they fought for.

Guy Innagorillasuit: I meant United States of America Americans, not North Americans.

I know, but I had to dish out a smartassed remark to meet one. ;)

Guy Innagorillasuit: I'll use a /sarcasm tag next time.

I realize you were being sarcastic, but it amazes me how many otherwise intelligent people really don't get that both sides of the Civil War were Americans. Manufactured controversies like the one in TFA just drive me up the wall.

Will President Obama Send a Wreath to Confederate Memorial at Arlington Help End Our Slow News Week?

FTFT.

NeauxFear: bronyaur1: Next they are going to demand that the President stop laying a wreath on the Tomb of the Unknown Klansman.

You laugh, but Arlington Natl Cemetery is Robert E Lee's old plantation estate. It was used as a US military field headquarters and hospital during the war, and many bodies were buried on the grounds after dying there. SO many, in fact, that Lee felt that they should not be disturbed and reinterred elsewhere.

In effect, we have Arlington as a public monument because "Marse Bob" donated the plantation and house to form the Arlington National Cemetery. There were some assholes who led the rebels simply because they sought glory or wealth (Beauregard and Bragg come to mind). Then there were men like Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson who were rare heroes, whosever side they fought for.

Fair enough, but it is difficult to justify honoring those who fought for the enslavement of other human beings.

bronyaur1:
Fair enough, but it is difficult to justify honoring those who fought for the enslavement of other human beings.

That's not what the war was about. It was about state's rights.

/of course there was one state's right the south was primarily concerned with preserving...
//to the point that they preferred federal power in regards to the Fugitive Slave Act

Occam's Chainsaw: Memorial Day honors all American war dead. Were the confederates Americans? Did they die in war? Then they fit the criteria. STFU, "scholars".

No. Yes. No they don't. fark them, they lost. They shouldn't even have their own memorial at Arlington.

NeauxFear: Then there were men like Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson who were rare heroes, whosever side they fought for.

No. They may have been brilliant and courageous men, but that doesn't change the fact that they committed high treason against the United States.

Frankly, I think it's a big mistake to have ANY publicly funded or acknowledged monuments to any "hero" of the rebellion.

Not only did they fight to destroy the United States, these people fought to maintain slavery-- a stain on history that makes the WWII holocaust look like a freaking block party.

Riche: NeauxFear: Then there were men like Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson who were rare heroes, whosever side they fought for.

No. They may have been brilliant and courageous men, but that doesn't change the fact that they committed high treason against the United States.

Frankly, I think it's a big mistake to have ANY publicly funded or acknowledged monuments to any "hero" of the rebellion.

Not only did they fight to destroy the United States, these people fought to maintain slavery-- a stain on history that makes the WWII holocaust look like a freaking block party.

I agreed with you until you brought the Holocaust into it. Obviously, you know nothing about the Holocaust or you would not have made such an extremely stupid comment.

Keeping people in slavery is bad, but is it worse that killing over 6 million people? I don't think so.

Riche: NeauxFear: Then there were men like Lee and Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson who were rare heroes, whosever side they fought for.

No. They may have been brilliant and courageous men, but that doesn't change the fact that they committed high treason against the United States.

Frankly, I think it's a big mistake to have ANY publicly funded or acknowledged monuments to any "hero" of the rebellion.

Not only did they fight to destroy the United States, these people fought to maintain slavery-- a stain on history that makes the WWII holocaust look like a freaking block party.

The North were never the shining knight that charged out to end slavery once and for all.

Fark It: Occam's Chainsaw: Memorial Day honors all American war dead. Were the confederates Americans? Did they die in war? Then they fit the criteria. STFU, "scholars".

No. Yes. No they don't. fark them, they lost. They shouldn't even have their own memorial at Arlington.

Shut up you cock. It's the respectful and right thing to do, even if they were treasonous criminals.

Riche: No. They may have been brilliant and courageous men, but that doesn't change the fact that they committed high treason against the United States.

Like I said above, a fine American tradition that is lionized every July 4, and which was specifically advocated by several of our more prominent Founders. If you don't like the Confederate holiday, by all means, you are free to create your own.

Fark It: Occam's Chainsaw: Memorial Day honors all American war dead. Were the confederates Americans? Did they die in war? Then they fit the criteria. STFU, "scholars".

No. Yes. No they don't. fark them, they lost. They shouldn't even have their own memorial at Arlington.

winning or losing is not a good criteria for honoring a soldier.

In their letter to the president, the group says that the monument is a "denial of the wrong committed against African Americans by slave owners, Confederates, and neo-Confederates."

And what about the wrongs committed against African Americans by non-Confederates? Slavery was legal in four of the states fighting for the Union.

Riche: Frankly, I think it's a big mistake to have ANY publicly funded or acknowledged monuments to any "hero" of the rebellion.

Does secession fall under treason? Debatable. Treason is a charge for an individual citizen at any rate, and I don't see how it could be easily used against an entire member state of the union.

57#c51330557">Riche: No. They may have been brilliant and courageous men, but that doesn't change the fact that they committed high treason against the United States.

Again, not so sure it falls under treason. And many were highly conflicted in their decision to side with the new Confederacy.Riche: Not only did they fight to destroy the United States, these people fought to maintain slavery-- a stain on history that makes the WWII holocaust look like a freaking block party.

No, most of them did not. The vast majority of Southerners at the time were not slave owners, did not benefit substantially from slavery, nor was the impetus for the Civil War explicitly slavery. Yes, they were racists, but so were the Northerners of the day when compared to today's sensibilities.

And please don't equate the systematic persecution and attempted extermination of the Jews of Europe in under a decade to the institution of Slavery in the new world. While both examples of horrible things, any analogous qualities of the two ends there.

Unlikely also urges those "Scholars" to STFU.

Larry Mahnken: In their letter to the president, the group says that the monument is a "denial of the wrong committed against African Americans by slave owners, Confederates, and neo-Confederates." And what about the wrongs committed against African Americans by non-Confederates? Slavery was legal in four of the states fighting for the Union.

that is hardly the point, now is it? The monument does not honor all Americans who supported slavery, just those who fought to defend it.

I don't know if it's "racist." But the USA should stop honoring the Confederacy in any way whatsoever. There was no honor in that treasonous nation of evil slaving vipers. We should instead teach that the Confederacy, and everything affiliated with it, was a shameful time in history. Confederate descendants should take no pride in their heritage, but should instead, like Germans to their Nazi ancestors, see them as abhorrent criminals to be ashamed of.

Still waiting

Larry Mahnken: In their letter to the president, the group says that the monument is a "denial of the wrong committed against African Americans by slave owners, Confederates, and neo-Confederates."
And what about the wrongs committed against African Americans by non-Confederates? Slavery was legal in four of the states fighting for the Union.

no you can't say that!!! Union = pure good and Confederacy = pure evil.

I once took a course in post-Civil War historiography. It's fascinating to see how profoundly the whole "Lost Cause" idea still pervades how people from the South think.

Judging by the replies here, its obvious that Farkers didn't read the actual letter they sent (new window), which does acknowledge the righteousness of the memorial for those who died. All these Academics and Professors are doing is suggesting Obama not lay a separate wreath to encourage Neo-Confederates, of which there are many. That is all. And here are the people who are better readers than most of you. They deserve individual recognition rather than anti-intellectualist provincialist bullshiat this thread is putting out:

Shawn Leigh Alexander, Langston Hughes Center, Kansas University

Jeanie Attie, Long Island University, Associate Professor of History

Bill Ayers, University of Illinois, Chicago, Professor of Education (OMGLIBRULTURRIST!)

David Barber, University of Tennessee, Martin Assistant Professor of History

Allison Blakely, Boston University, Professor of European and Comparative History; George and Joyce Wein Professor of African American Studies.

Roger D. Bridges, Rutherford B. Hayes Presidential Center, Executive Director Emeritus

Joshua Brown, The City University of New York, Executive Director American Social History Project

Vernon Orville Burton, Coastal Carolina University, Burroughs Distinguished Professor of Southern History and Culture at Coastal Carolina University

Thomas Christie, Lincoln Public Schools, Lincoln, Nebraska, Multicultural Administrator

Simone Davis, Mt. Holyoke College, Professor of English

George Ewert, Former Director of the Museum of Mobile

Jonathan Farley, Institute fur Algebra Johannes Kepler Universitat Linz Teaching and Research Fellow

Gordon Fellman, Brandeis University Professor of Sociology

Leon Fink, University of Illinois, Chicago, Distinguished Professor

Paul Finkelman, Albany Law School, President William McKinley Distinguished Professor of Law

Grey Gundaker, College of William & Mary, Professor of Anthropology

Euan Hague, DePaul University, Chicago, Professor of Cultural Geography

David E Hayes-Bautista, School of Medicine, UCLA

David Hicks, Virginia Tech, Associate Professor of History and Social Science Education

Kenneth T. Jackson, Columbia University, Professor of History and Social Sciences

Ira Katznelson, Columbia University, Ruggles Professor of Political Science and History

Roger G. Kennedy, National Museum of American History (ret.), National Park Service (ret.), Former Director, National Park Service

Barclay Key, Western Illinois University, Assistant Professor of African-American History

DeWayne Key, Mars Hill Bible School, Florence, Alabama

Peter Knapp, Villanova University, Professor of Sociology

Jonathan Leib, Old Dominion University, Associate Professor of Geography (More than 40 others signed the letter.)

KellyLockhart: Guy Innagorillasuit: I'll use a /sarcasm tag next time.

I realize you were being sarcastic, but it amazes me how many otherwise intelligent people really don't get that both sides of the Civil War were Americans. Manufactured controversies like the one in TFA just drive me up the wall.

I don't get it, didn't they form their own separate country with its own constitution and its own currency? Just because they called it the Confederate States of America, does that prove that it was still part of America? Weren't the Confederate states readmitted to the Union after the war?

/Should it be the United States of India, since the explorers called the natives Indians?
//Will this thread turn into a flamewar? Okay, actually, I know the answer to that one . . .
///And just for fun, didn't one them assassinate the President after the war was over?

captain_heroic44: I don't know if it's "racist." But the USA should stop honoring the Confederacy in any way whatsoever. There was no honor in that treasonous nation of evil slaving vipers. We should instead teach that the Confederacy, and everything affiliated with it, was a shameful time in history. Confederate descendants should take no pride in their heritage, but should instead, like Germans to their Nazi ancestors, see them as abhorrent criminals to be ashamed of.

Yeah because Nazi Germany and the Confederacy are comparable. Exact same thing.

HighOnCraic: I don't get it, didn't they form their own separate country with its own constitution and its own currency?

They saw themselves as a separate country, culturally, economically and politically. For many reasons Lincoln needed to treat them as a rebellion within the U.S.---never acknowledging they could or should be able to secede in the first place. From the beginning the two images are irreconcilable.

captain_heroic44: I don't know if it's "racist." But the USA should stop honoring the Confederacy in any way whatsoever. There was no honor in that treasonous nation of evil slaving vipers. We should instead teach that the Confederacy, and everything affiliated with it, was a shameful time in history. Confederate descendants should take no pride in their heritage, but should instead, like Germans to their Nazi ancestors, see them as abhorrent criminals to be ashamed of.

The fact that you think that people should be TAUGHT to feel one way or another about a group of people is pretty disgusting. Keep indoctrination out of the schools, kthx. Teach history in a way that lets the students make their own opinions, not to push the agenda that captain_heroic deems necessary.

Seriously, go fark yourself.

Cinaed: No, most of them did not. The vast majority of Southerners at the time were not slave owners, did not benefit substantially from slavery, nor was the impetus for the Civil War explicitly slavery. Yes, they were racists, but so were the Northerners of the day when compared to today's sensibilities.

And please don't equate the systematic persecution and attempted extermination of the Jews of Europe in under a decade to the institution of Slavery in the new world. While both examples of horrible things, any analogous qualities of the two ends there.

Yes, the Holocaust was much worse.

But perhaps you should read the secession documents are check out Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech:

"The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity."


/Or you can check some of the speeches of Confederate leaders arguing that all Southerners benefited from slavery even if they didn't actually own slaves.

nicksteel: that is hardly the point, now is it? The monument does not honor all Americans who supported slavery, just those who fought to defend it.

The Confederates did not fight to defend slavery. They fought because they no longer had any say whatsoever in the destiny of the United States. Lincoln had won with 39% of the vote, and would still have won the election if the other 61% had gone for one man, instead of being split among three.

The root cause of the cultural and economic differences between North and South was slavery, but the Civil War was not fought over slavery.

Larry Mahnken: nicksteel: that is hardly the point, now is it? The monument does not honor all Americans who supported slavery, just those who fought to defend it.

The Confederates did not fight to defend slavery. They fought because they no longer had any say whatsoever in the destiny of the United States. Lincoln had won with 39% of the vote, and would still have won the election if the other 61% had gone for one man, instead of being split among three.

The root cause of the cultural and economic differences between North and South was slavery, but the Civil War was not fought over slavery.

And as Lincoln himself said, he didn't give a damn about slavery. Until, that is, it became a politically convenient rally cry.

The major crime is attempting to break away from the precious Union, which was founded because of secession.

What's funny is the people upset about this are probably the same ones who complain all the time about political correctness. Honoring our war enemy just because their descendants live in America is the definition of PC. Your ancestors insurgency failed and you aren't entitled to anything. Go cry about it.

Larry Mahnken: nicksteel: that is hardly the point, now is it? The monument does not honor all Americans who supported slavery, just those who fought to defend it.

The Confederates did not fight to defend slavery. They fought because they no longer had any say whatsoever in the destiny of the United States. Lincoln had won with 39% of the vote, and would still have won the election if the other 61% had gone for one man, instead of being split among three.

The root cause of the cultural and economic differences between North and South was slavery, but the Civil War was not fought over slavery.

That is pure one hundred percent bullshiat. You say that they no longer had a say in the destiny of the USA. Really? The majority of the members of the Supreme Court were from the south, the south still had members in Congress. How did they not have a say? Even if the north had voted as a block to pass an amendment to end slavery, they did not have enough states to get it passed.

The south went to war to defend slavery. All you need for proof of that is to read the declarations of secession of those states that tried to cut and run prior to the attack on Fort Sumter. They ALL state that their reason was the preservation of slavery and only Texas listed anything but slavery. So for you to say that it was not about slavery is to call the people who started the mess a bunch of liars.

Somacandra: HighOnCraic: I don't get it, didn't they form their own separate country with its own constitution and its own currency?

They saw themselves as a separate country, culturally, economically and politically. For many reasons Lincoln needed to treat them as a rebellion within the U.S.---never acknowledging they could or should be able to secede in the first place. From the beginning the two images are irreconcilable.

It's true that Lincoln didn't acknowledge them as a separate country, but does that mean they weren't? Didn't they have to take loyalty oaths before being READMITTED to the Union? Doesn't that mean that they were out of the Union?

HighOnCraic: Somacandra: HighOnCraic: I don't get it, didn't they form their own separate country with its own constitution and its own currency?

They saw themselves as a separate country, culturally, economically and politically. For many reasons Lincoln needed to treat them as a rebellion within the U.S.---never acknowledging they could or should be able to secede in the first place. From the beginning the two images are irreconcilable.

It's true that Lincoln didn't acknowledge them as a separate country, but does that mean they weren't? Didn't they have to take loyalty oaths before being READMITTED to the Union? Doesn't that mean that they were out of the Union?

Actually, by admitting West Virginia he recogninized the CSA.

I'm fine with a wreath being put on the Confederate Memorial, so long as one is also put on Benedict Arnold's grave.

HighOnCraic: Cinaed: No, most of them did not. The vast majority of Southerners at the time were not slave owners, did not benefit substantially from slavery, nor was the impetus for the Civil War explicitly slavery. Yes, they were racists, but so were the Northerners of the day when compared to today's sensibilities.

And please don't equate the systematic persecution and attempted extermination of the Jews of Europe in under a decade to the institution of Slavery in the new world. While both examples of horrible things, any analogous qualities of the two ends there.

Yes, the Holocaust was much worse.

But perhaps you should read the secession documents are check out Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' Cornerstone Speech:

"The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity."


/Or you can check some of the speeches of Confederate leaders arguing that all Southerners benefited from slavery even if they didn't actually own slaves.

He sounds like Lincoln from the Lincoln/Douglas debates in 1858.
Racist prick.

Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were both Confederates who disapproved of slavery, but fought for their State. What people forget was that all these States were essentially their own countries for over 100 years before the Revolution even began and they were still semi-independent until after the Civil War. The USA wasn't like it is today where going to a different state is just crossing a line on a map. People in these States felt real loyalty to their State rather then some abstract conception of the Union.

Yeah cause the only racists to ever be in America was the Confederates. No racism before or after.