from sourcewatch- Debra J. Saunders is a conservative columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle.

Subby = FAIL

There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Right, subby ?

Mordant: There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Umm, shouldn't the investigation begin with those that actually ordered the torture?

This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

For the time being, and maybe they will take down Pelosi, but this witch-hunt can only come back to haunt the Republicans. If they had an ounce of sense they'd STFU and hope the whole torture thing blows over.

St_Francis_P: 2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

For the time being, and maybe they will take down Pelosi, but this witch-hunt can only come back to haunt the Republicans. If they had an ounce of sense they'd STFU and hope the whole torture thing blows over.

See, this is what I don't understand. Dear "Republicans" - is waterboarding torture or not? If not, what the fark is your message with the whole "Pelosi once sat in a meeting where she was told about this" tack? If it is torture, perhaps you need to address the real villains here.

That being said, Pelosi really mangled her response to this, which is too bad. Total softball was thrown at her, and she freaked the HELL out. *sigh*

St_Francis_P: 2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

For the time being, and maybe they will take down Pelosi, but this witch-hunt can only come back to haunt the Republicans. If they had an ounce of sense they'd STFU and hope the whole torture thing blows over.

Actually, at this point, they don't want to take her totally down. She is the equivalent of a wounded animal, her replacement would have more power than she.

The Republicans have no fear of retribution here btw, the Dem party is all about witch hunts in the first place. In fact, Pelosi get her own self in this situation by witch-hunting the Bush administration. Oops.

Dinki: Mordant: There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Umm, shouldn't the investigation begin with those that actually ordered the torture?

In a world of decent people, yes. In a world of people like Doublek111, we have to play their childish games first and go for justice in the grand scheme of things despite their best efforts to turn America into a third world shiathole.

Doublek111:

The Republicans have no fear of retribution here btw, the Dem party is all about witch hunts in the first place. In fact, Pelosi get her own self in this situation by witch-hunting the Bush administration. Oops.

Yeah, Whitewater was a Democratic op, Tail gunner Joe was a secret D, and Iran/Contra never happened. Do something useful, go blow a goat.

Doublek111: the Dem party is all about witch hunts in the first place.

Unlike the GOP that never spends any time on witch hunts.

Yup, she knew about it and she can go down. That means Bush and his minions are in some serious trouble.

Doublek111: St_Francis_P: 2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

For the time being, and maybe they will take down Pelosi, but this witch-hunt can only come back to haunt the Republicans. If they had an ounce of sense they'd STFU and hope the whole torture thing blows over.

Actually, at this point, they don't want to take her totally down. She is the equivalent of a wounded animal, her replacement would have more power than she.

The Republicans have no fear of retribution here btw, the Dem party is all about witch hunts in the first place. In fact, Pelosi get her own self in this situation by witch-hunting the Bush administration. Oops.

Retribution is only part of their problem. The main problem is that by going on about Pelosi they are making people think about the issue. They're in the position of the kid caught red-handed who says, "But she saw me do it!" That didn't work in grade school, and it won't work now.

2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

I think they're all guilty. The Bush folks for starting the whole thing, and several influential Democrats for looking the other way while it happened.

It stinks. All of it. so far, the only people who've ended up being punished out of all these torture sessions were a couple of poor white trash turnkeys at ONE prison, and a brigadier general forced into early retirement who quietly faded away.

Mordant: There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Right, subby ?

It's like starting a bank robbery investigation by prosecuting tellers.

Doublek111: Pelosi get her own self in this situation by witch-hunting the Bush administration

The same Pelosi who unequivocally said that impeachment was off the table? Yeah, some witch hunt.

2wolves: go blow a goat.

feisty for a Sunday morning aren't you?


Dinki: Unlike the GOP that never spends any time on witch hunts.

I didn't say that. But interesting that the witch hunt you bring up is from 10 long years ago. The Dems have perfected witch hunts, it helped them get control of Presidency and both Congresses. Kind of impressive actually.

Doublek111: The Dems have perfected witch hunts, it helped them get control of Presidency and both Congresses. Kind of impressive actually.

Bullshiat Repub WHARRGARBL is bullshiat. What witch hunts?

GAT_00: Doublek111: The Dems have perfected witch hunts, it helped them get control of Presidency and both Congresses. Kind of impressive actually.

Bullshiat Repub WHARRGARBL is bullshiat. What witch hunts?

my bad, the 35 investigators the Dems flew up to Alaska to derail Palin wasn't a witch hunt. I apologize.

Smart strategy by the GOP/Bush administration for two reasons:

1) If they really are going to go down for this, then the thinking is that you should try to bring as many Democrats down with you as well. That way, it gets cast as not just a GOP scandal, but one that also ensnared members of the Democrats as well.

2) If they DON'T go down for this, then they can point to the fact that no one was prosecuted, including Pelosi, and spin it to mean that what they did truly wasn't that bad if it didn't even warrant punishment in some way. Some of the newer GOP members can then say that the President is so protective of Pelosi that he didn't want to start an investigation and hold Bush administration officials accountable because he knew it would bring Pelosi down as well. This will likely piss of Obama's liberal/left wing backers even more than he has done so in recent months.

For the GOP, they were backed into a corner and they "rolled the dice" (to borrow a Barney Frank term) and hoped that Pelosi would drop the ball. She did, and now they are in a somewhat of a win-win situation.

KaponoFor3: For the GOP, they were backed into a corner and they "rolled the dice" (to borrow a Barney Frank term) and hoped that Pelosi would drop the ball. She did, and now they are in a somewhat of a win-win situation.

This is like watching Enemy at the Gates - I don't know who to root for.

Doublek111:

feisty for a Sunday morning aren't you?

Spunky for a Sunday afternoon aren't you.

Doublek111: my bad, the 35 investigators the Dems flew up to Alaska to derail Palin wasn't a witch hunt. I apologize.

Are you forgetting the lawbreaking? You had no problem with Palin using her office to get her ex-brother-in-law fired? I guess 'witch hunts' are only when people go after Republicans.

GAT_00: Doublek111: my bad, the 35 investigators the Dems flew up to Alaska to derail Palin wasn't a witch hunt. I apologize.

Are you forgetting the lawbreaking? You had no problem with Palin using her office to get her ex-brother-in-law fired? I guess 'witch hunts' are only when people go after Republicans.

nah - both parties are equally intolerant. it's just that right now the Republicans are whining louder than the Democrats.

Weaver95: nah - both parties are equally intolerant. it's just that right now the Republicans are whining louder than the Democrats.

Yes, prosecuting people for doing wrong things is always bad.

GAT_00: Weaver95: nah - both parties are equally intolerant. it's just that right now the Republicans are whining louder than the Democrats.

Yes, prosecuting people for doing wrong things is always bad.

I don't see a lot of Democrats condemning Nancy for looking the other way while torture was going on.

Weaver95:

I don't see a lot of Democrats condemning Nancy for looking the other way while torture was going on.

Except on Fark.

nancy pelosi is a craven, ambitious politician. i don't doubt she knew or at the very least suspected this was going on.

however, why the GOP is making hay over this is just beyond me. if waterboarding isn't torture, as they claim, why does it matter when and if pelosi knew about it?

2wolves: Except on Fark.

That doesn't count. Unless every single Democrat in the nation stands up and one at a time says they don't support Nancy Pelosi, we're all complicit in this. Or at least that seems to be the logic. At any rate, clearly the important thing isn't what Bush did, or all the people that supported him, it is what Nancy knew. That's the big thing here. Not all the illegal torture that Bush did that so many people cheered on.

Mordant: There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Right, subby ?

I'd settle for a full investigation into the matter, and if it takes down Pelosi, so much the better.

So, Nacy lied. She lied, all right. STFU about it for crying out loud. She lied like a rug. The truth was not in her. She fibbed, prevaricated and told untruths. She is a very bad person.

BTW, how many people died because of her egregious and unforgivable lies?

Good lord...people are getting more worked up over Nancy Pelosi knowing about torture than the people that actually authorized and committed the torture.

What kind of weird bizarro world have we entered?

FlashHarry: nancy pelosi is a craven, ambitious politician. i don't doubt she knew or at the very least suspected this was going on.

however, why the GOP is making hay over this is just beyond me. if waterboarding isn't torture, as they claim, why does it matter when and if pelosi knew about it?

It seems like they're pretty well screwed either way, but so is Pelosi now. With the hatred so many conservatives have for her, it seems like they're willing to sacrifice members of their own party to take her down at this point.

I loathe conservatism, but I really admire their talent getting away with being blatantly criminal by using misdirection.

Dinki: from sourcewatch- Debra J. Saunders is a conservative columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle.

Subby = FAIL

B-b-but, I thought all the media but Fox and Real Clear Politics was liberal?

ChickenTits: I loathe conservatism, but I really admire their talent getting away with being blatantly criminal by using misdirection.

This.

St_Francis_P: 2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

For the time being, and maybe they will take down Pelosi, but this witch-hunt can only come back to haunt the Republicans. If they had an ounce of sense they'd STFU and hope the whole torture thing blows over.

You mean like Pelosi did ever since she was privy to it in 2002?

KaponoFor3: Smart strategy by the GOP/Bush administration for two reasons:

1) If they really are going to go down for this, then the thinking is that you should try to bring as many Democrats down with you as well. That way, it gets cast as not just a GOP scandal, but one that also ensnared members of the Democrats as well.

2) If they DON'T go down for this, then they can point to the fact that no one was prosecuted, including Pelosi, and spin it to mean that what they did truly wasn't that bad if it didn't even warrant punishment in some way. Some of the newer GOP members can then say that the President is so protective of Pelosi that he didn't want to start an investigation and hold Bush administration officials accountable because he knew it would bring Pelosi down as well. This will likely piss of Obama's liberal/left wing backers even more than he has done so in recent months.

For the GOP, they were backed into a corner and they "rolled the dice" (to borrow a Barney Frank term) and hoped that Pelosi would drop the ball. She did, and now they are in a somewhat of a win-win situation.

Nope. This may destroy Pelosi, but not the party. This will be the end of Republicanism.

The entire party isn't on record angrily defending Pelosi's lies for the past 6 years. The ENTIRE Republican party defended Bush and Co. against allegations of torture for years, even questioning the accusers patriotism.

This is Cheney being to stupid to know he doesn't have power anymore. His ego has bombed. This is the end.

ChickenTits: I loathe conservatism, but I really admire their talent getting away with being blatantly criminal by using misdirection.

There's a BIG difference between 'Republican' and 'Conservative'.

But if you want to really see some fireworks from the Right, wait'll Franken is sworn in to the US Senate.

kleppe: St_Francis_P: 2wolves: This is all a lovely distraction away from the fact that the Bush Administration instituted torture as official U.S. policy.

For the time being, and maybe they will take down Pelosi, but this witch-hunt can only come back to haunt the Republicans. If they had an ounce of sense they'd STFU and hope the whole torture thing blows over.

You mean like Pelosi did ever since she was privy to it in 2002?

Again, it doesn't matter.

"Why didn't you stop us from committing crimes libtards!"

Cheney has lost it.

If Real Clear Politics is for it, I'm against it.

Dinki: Mordant: There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Umm, shouldn't the investigation begin with those that actually ordered the torture?

Oh, didn't you know? What Nancy did was about 65 bajillion times worse than what Bush and Cheney did.

Send Nancy with the rest of them.

Weaver95: ChickenTits: I loathe conservatism, but I really admire their talent getting away with being blatantly criminal by using misdirection.

There's a BIG difference between 'Republican' and 'Conservative'.

But if you want to really see some fireworks from the Right, wait'll Franken is sworn in to the US Senate.

Yep. Republicans win the elections, Conservatives just vote for the Republicans.

Weaver95: ChickenTits: I loathe conservatism, but I really admire their talent getting away with being blatantly criminal by using misdirection.

There's a BIG difference between 'Republican' and 'Conservative'.

But if you want to really see some fireworks from the Right, wait'll Franken is sworn in to the US Senate.

Fair enough to you first statement, but I say give Franken a shot before busting his balls... then again, I'm about as liberal as they come and I find him a bit shrill.

I know Nancy Pelosi, and you Sir, are no Nancy Pelosi.

Dinki: Mordant: There should be a full investigation of Pelosi... followed by an investigation of EVERYONE else involved in the matter.

Umm, shouldn't the investigation begin with those that actually ordered the torture?

No, it should begin with the people who complied with the illegal orders. They should recieve their due judgement. Then they should turn evidence against their superiors in a gesture to demonstrate their ability to reform themselves and eventually rejoin society. Their superiors should then be crushed by the mountain of evidence and testimony and recieve punishments which are the equivalent to the sum total of the punishments of all their subbordinates, and then a specific edition reflective of their particular position and responsability. And so on, until the people at the top are turning boulders into gravel, or die doing it.

Torture was rejected in a life and death struggle with Nazi Germany because it wasn't reliable enough.

Torture was embraced by the Bush administration.

The Bush administration led America into the intelligence failure that is the Iraq war.

This is the key question, how much waste, suffering and death was caused by the cowardice and panic of the Bush/Cheney administration and the use of torture to manufacture "evidence".

Will anyone pay for this, not merely immoral but terribly counterproductive, criminal activity?

Anyone besides Pelosi?

ChickenTits: Weaver95: ChickenTits: I loathe conservatism, but I really admire their talent getting away with being blatantly criminal by using misdirection.

There's a BIG difference between 'Republican' and 'Conservative'.

But if you want to really see some fireworks from the Right, wait'll Franken is sworn in to the US Senate.

Fair enough to you first statement, but I say give Franken a shot before busting his balls... then again, I'm about as liberal as they come and I find him a bit shrill.

No, you missed my point. When Franken is sworn in, the Republicans lose complete control in the Senate. they won't even be able to fillibuster. And with the Democrats having a majority vote in the US House AND control of the white house....well, it's pretty grim for 'em.

I dislike Pelosi, but the outrage is like elevator music on full volume.


oldebayer: BTW, how many people died because of her egregious and unforgivable lies?

Bush Pelosi lied, people died!

PirateFreedom: Torture was rejected in a life and death struggle with Nazi Germany because it wasn't reliable enough.

Torture was embraced by the Bush administration.

The Bush administration led America into the intelligence failure that is the Iraq war.

This is the key question, how much waste, suffering and death was caused by the cowardice and panic of the Bush/Cheney administration and the use of torture to manufacture "evidence".

Will anyone pay for this, not merely immoral but terribly counterproductive, criminal activity?

Anyone besides Pelosi?

Really? That's how you roll? C'mon man, get a grip.