Which is realy gonna suck for him as he tackles the ethanol issue

O realy?

Yeah, ORLY?

It would help I think to get the issues out on the table, myself. Including the differences in types of ethanol, the need to get to making ethanol (if we're going there) from already grown and waste stuff, or at least cheap input stuff, etc.

I'll agree the traditional way of the corn lobby has to be looked at - and I'll say that from Illinois even.

Ethanol, climate change, and several other issues where both sides are probably just wrong.

Of course the bottom line is going to involve the need to CONSERVE, which is the part that no one ever wants to hear.

Ethanol is the full retard of motor fuels.

But, as the EPA has learned, calculating those values isn't easy. One of the biggest sources of debate has been over changes in land use, particularly abroad. If corn is taken out of the food supply to make biofuel, global food prices can rise, which can prompt farmers in other countries to clear forests for new crops. And that releases CO 2

First off - that's bullshiat logic if ever I heard it. And secondly - if they're worried about using corn as fuel, then switch to cannabis. it's been grown as a food crop for centuries, it's easier to grow than corn and actually better for the soil. plus it can be used as biofuel AND a food source. As a suppliment to the food supply along with corn, it could fill the gap as we increase biofuel production.

Making ethanol from corn makes about as much sense as making bologna from filet mignon. There are much better ways to go about it.

Plus corn goes extremely well with filet mignon. Ethanol, too.

oldebayer: Making ethanol from corn makes about as much sense as making bologna from filet mignon. There are much better ways to go about it.

Plus corn goes extremely well with filet mignon. Ethanol, too.

I suspect that there are other means of increasing the efficency of biofuels, it's just that we really haven't explored the science behind it all that much. I'd really like to find out just how good a biofuel cannabis would make. I know it was used as an artifical industral lubricant in bomber engines during WWII. And that was before we improved our chemical processing abilities - imagine what we might achive with current technology and you understand my interest in all of this.

Weaver95: oldebayer: Making ethanol from corn makes about as much sense as making bologna from filet mignon. There are much better ways to go about it.

Plus corn goes extremely well with filet mignon. Ethanol, too.

I suspect that there are other means of increasing the efficency of biofuels, it's just that we really haven't explored the science behind it all that much. I'd really like to find out just how good a biofuel cannabis would make. I know it was used as an artifical industral lubricant in bomber engines during WWII. And that was before we improved our chemical processing abilities - imagine what we might achive with current technology and you understand my interest in all of this.

Hell, I'd be happy if they'd just stop throwing a hissy fit about industrial hemp. If it was good enough for the war effort in WW2, it's good enough now.

Hender: Hell, I'd be happy if they'd just stop throwing a hissy fit about industrial hemp. If it was good enough for the war effort in WW2, it's good enough now.

it's interesting how few people know and/or remember how many substitutes we found to get through that war. Industrial hemp was merely ONE example. The germans even came up with a way to turn coal into synthetic diesel fuel. So much of that technology has been ignored, forgotten or buried.

Weaver95: Hender: Hell, I'd be happy if they'd just stop throwing a hissy fit about industrial hemp. If it was good enough for the war effort in WW2, it's good enough now.

it's interesting how few people know and/or remember how many substitutes we found to get through that war. Industrial hemp was merely ONE example. The germans even came up with a way to turn coal into synthetic diesel fuel. So much of that technology has been ignored, forgotten or buried.

Some were out of necessity and abandoned because other methods are more efficient, but banning industrial hemp because it's a cousin of pot is just plain silly. You can't get high off it--I know some people who tried to and failed hard. Made them pretty sick.

why would it suck for him?
easy decision

cut 100% of the subsidies
it was bad science to begin with,
if it cant survive on its own,
let it die

Weaver95: I suspect that there are other means of increasing the efficency of biofuels, it's just that we really haven't explored the science behind it all that much. I'd really like to find out just how good a biofuel cannabis would make. I know it was used as an artifical industral lubricant in bomber engines during WWII. And that was before we improved our chemical processing abilities - imagine what we might achive with current technology and you understand my interest in all of this.

Not to make light of your argument, but I couldn't help but think of this.

I suggest we just not use corn as a biofuel.

ninjakirby: I suggest we just not use corn as a biofuel.

we should use cannabis instead.

Several of my uncles, who are farmers, have known all along that Corn Ethanol was a scam from the word go. They know full well how much energy and chemicals it takes to just produce the corn itself.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Nuclear/wind/whatever for our electricity. Use our coal reserves for coal liquification. Batteries simply don't have the energy density to be a viable replacement for all cars. Even after 100 years of development, batteries only have a small fraction of the energy density both by weight and by volume of hydrocarbon fuels.

The internal combustion engine is going to be with us for a long time. The best we can hope for in the near future for cars is to become energy interdependent.

Ethanol should never have been tried. It is a net loss of energy, it has taken away from food production, which is beyond ridiculous, and it does damage to engines. Ethanol has probably set back an actual fuel solution, like hydrogen, by years. I hope he shiatcans the program.

Mr Fusion or bust.

Weaver95: ninjakirby: I suggest we just not use corn as a biofuel.

we should use cannabis instead.

Hemp or seaweed

Simple rule to follow: Never make a fuel out of a food crop.

Weaver95: "But, as the EPA has learned, calculating those values isn't easy. One of the biggest sources of debate has been over changes in land use, particularly abroad. If corn is taken out of the food supply to make biofuel, global food prices can rise, which can prompt farmers in other countries to clear forests for new crops. And that releases CO 2"

First off - that's bullshiat logic if ever I heard it.

Just because you don't understand it, that doesn't make it bullshiat.

Ethanol from sugar is an efficient biofuel. Corn, not so much.

He_Hate_Me: Weaver95: "But, as the EPA has learned, calculating those values isn't easy. One of the biggest sources of debate has been over changes in land use, particularly abroad. If corn is taken out of the food supply to make biofuel, global food prices can rise, which can prompt farmers in other countries to clear forests for new crops. And that releases CO 2"

First off - that's bullshiat logic if ever I heard it.

Just because you don't understand it, that doesn't make it bullshiat.

Well, and it's not hard to understand, either:

"If we use our food production capacity to make fuel, we will need to expand our food production capacity to make up for the loss."

Kinda simple, kinda straightforward, kinda obvious.

If the first presidential primary were in Idaho, we'd power our cars with potato ethanol. The only efficiency politicians are concerned with is in gaining votes.

drjekel_mrhyde: Weaver95: ninjakirby: I suggest we just not use corn as a biofuel.

we should use cannabis instead.

Hemp or seaweed

I heard cattails were supposed to be pretty good, too. Anyone know if there's truth to that?

Hender: Some were out of necessity and abandoned because other methods are more efficient, but banning industrial hemp because it's a cousin of pot is just plain silly.

Industrial hemp has been demonized as part of the Drug War because it threatened several big businesses with deep pockets. Textiles, paper...maybe even the rubber industry as well. There's a very logical reason why the PLANT is illegal, instead of just the drug (like opiates and cocaine and the like).

It's gonna be a real uphill battle to legalize. Between lobbyists and the grassroots "starter drug" mythology, it's gonna be a long haul.

Procedural Texture: Mr Fusion or bust.

Mr. Fusion powers the time circuits and flux capacitor, but the internal combustion engine runs on ordinary gasoline. It always has!
=Smidge=

VwlssWndr: Hender: Some were out of necessity and abandoned because other methods are more efficient, but banning industrial hemp because it's a cousin of pot is just plain silly.

Industrial hemp has been demonized as part of the Drug War because it threatened several big businesses with deep pockets. Textiles, paper...maybe even the rubber industry as well. There's a very logical reason why the PLANT is illegal, instead of just the drug (like opiates and cocaine and the like).

It's gonna be a real uphill battle to legalize. Between lobbyists and the grassroots "starter drug" mythology, it's gonna be a long haul.

More to the point, industrial hemp was what incited the drug war in the first place. The cotton industry holds a lion's share of the blame for starting the general assault on pot.

Industrial hemp wasn't splash damage, it was the intended target.

Good headline. Ethanol in fuel reduces fuel economy, meaning I need to refill more often, thus increasing our dependence on foreign oil.

Plus, because some companies put more than 10% in to save money, it messes with fuel lines and fuel pumps.

Ethanol? Feh. If a tiny drop of Red Matter is powerful enough to destroy a planet, we would be fools to ignore such a potentially-valuable resource.

Weaver95: Hender: Hell, I'd be happy if they'd just stop throwing a hissy fit about industrial hemp. If it was good enough for the war effort in WW2, it's good enough now.

it's interesting how few people know and/or remember how many substitutes we found to get through that war. Industrial hemp was merely ONE example. The germans even came up with a way to turn coal into synthetic diesel fuel. So much of that technology has been ignored, forgotten or buried.

Like the Japanese Shale plants and death rays.

who needs Science when Bush brought us GOD!!


thanks, george!

oh, and thanks to you too, God!

Science doesn't set goals subby. whether you are pro or con ethanol depends on what goals you set.

GAT_00: Ethanol should never have been tried. It is a net loss of energy, it has taken away from food production, which is beyond ridiculous, and it does damage to engines. Ethanol has probably set back an actual fuel solution, like hydrogen, by years. I hope he shiatcans the program.

I'm sorry, but everything you said there was false.

Depends what your source of ethanol is. Sugar Cane ethanol has a 7-8 to 1 energy balance. Corn at its worse is a slight loss or breaks even. Most studies find it slightly positive. Should we be using corn? I don't know yet. It certainly is the worse choice for ethanol, but it's still better then Saudi Oil.

Has ethanol set hydrogen back? maybe. I doubt you can find any evidence of that. I would say electric car technology is a bigger threat to hydrogen. DOE recently zeroed out the budget for it and uped the budget for plug-ins because they are the only ones that realistically make any sort of impact in the near future. Hydrogen's problem is that you will not see it commercially viable for 15-20 years.

Takes away from food production? certainly, but not to the extent that people think. There is still shiat tons of food left over from producing ethanol from corn (distillers grain) which is ideal for the livestock industry. Soy acreage in Brazil has decreased slightly from its high in 2004. The US biodiesel industry in that time period went from 25 million gallons to 690 million in 2008.

Does damage to engines? It can. But there are plenty of people who are more qualified than you that would say no. EPA initially didn't think so, but they are encouraging further testing till they move the blend wall to E15. So unless you're doing the actual testing and are seeing the damage being done, don't throw around ignorant claims.

SavaThePriest: Algae.

THIS

Ethanol is a great idea. Corn ethanol is a horrible, stupid idea.

Switchgrass, algea, and, I believe, hemp. Or, better yet, fund the hell out of those people who have bacteria that eats plant matter and shiats diesel.

RemyDuron: Ethanol is a great idea. Corn ethanol is a horrible, stupid idea.

Agreed. Corn ethanol is idiotic. I hope to God that Obama has the chutzpah tell the corn lobby where to shove it.

/not entirely confident that he does

Biobutanol? (new window) PDF

Ikam: RemyDuron: Ethanol is a great idea. Corn ethanol is a horrible, stupid idea.

Agreed. Corn ethanol is idiotic. I hope to God that Obama has the chutzpah tell the corn lobby where to shove it.

/not entirely confident that he does

Me neither. And while corn ethanol might not be a bad idea if we lived on an island and our only plant was corn, when there are better alternatives out there, in fact when practically every alternative is better, it's pretty silly.

Uhh, Obama? Yucca Mountain? Fuel storage? Ring a bell?

Or are you going to build a recycling center? I mean it's about time we had one in the US.

I mean I like that you're doing this but you need to stop listening to the hippies on this particular matter.



/go Nuke!
//future radiation protection technician

does anyone know the actual yield per acre of hemp? I don't see it being very affective for ethanol since it's more cellulose based (much harder to get ethanol from cellulose than say raw sugar or starch, like in corn). It is an oilseed crop, so it could be good for biodiesel production, but you have to see how much oil per acre you can get out of it. Soy is 60 gallons per acre. I would say that's a fare benchmark to meet.

His Mexcellency: does anyone know the actual yield per acre of hemp? I don't see it being very affective for ethanol since it's more cellulose based (much harder to get ethanol from cellulose than say raw sugar or starch, like in corn). It is an oilseed crop, so it could be good for biodiesel production, but you have to see how much oil per acre you can get out of it. Soy is 60 gallons per acre. I would say that's a fare fair benchmark to meet.

\FTFM

Will this be science or will it be more junk science?

His Mexcellency: does anyone know the actual yield per acre of hemp? I don't see it being very affective for ethanol since it's more cellulose based (much harder to get ethanol from cellulose than say raw sugar or starch, like in corn). It is an oilseed crop, so it could be good for biodiesel production, but you have to see how much oil per acre you can get out of it. Soy is 60 gallons per acre. I would say that's a fare benchmark to meet.

I know that hemp can be harvested 4 times a year on the same plot of land and that it can be rotated along with soy or corn and not harm the soil at all. What's the length of the soy crop growing season and how many times a year can you harvest it? Also consider that hemp can and does grow under some fairly harsh conditions...soy crops might not be able to do so without some fairly serious intervention.

I suspect hemp would be a good source of biofuel and/or food crop at least equal to that of soy and/or corn.

Ringshadow: /go Nuke!
//future radiation protection technician

Approves!

namatad: why would it suck for him?
easy decision

cut 100% of the subsidies
it was bad science to begin with,
if it cant survive on its own,
let it die

If Washington was capable of doing that then our great great grandchildren wouldn't be stuck with the Insurance, Banking, and Automotive manufacturing bailout bills.

Weaver95: But, as the EPA has learned, calculating those values isn't easy. One of the biggest sources of debate has been over changes in land use, particularly abroad. If corn is taken out of the food supply to make biofuel, global food prices can rise, which can prompt farmers in other countries to clear forests for new crops. And that releases CO 2

First off - that's bullshiat logic if ever I heard it. And secondly - if they're worried about using corn as fuel, then switch to cannabis. it's been grown as a food crop for centuries, it's easier to grow than corn and actually better for the soil. plus it can be used as biofuel AND a food source. As a suppliment to the food supply along with corn, it could fill the gap as we increase biofuel production.

Cannabis as food? Are you serious.

Weaver95: not harm the soil at all

Uh, what? All crops harm the soil. That's how they grow, by taking nutrients from the ground. Now, if you mean it helps replace nutrients taken by other crops, that's something else entirely.

MindStalker: Weaver95: But, as the EPA has learned, calculating those values isn't easy. One of the biggest sources of debate has been over changes in land use, particularly abroad. If corn is taken out of the food supply to make biofuel, global food prices can rise, which can prompt farmers in other countries to clear forests for new crops. And that releases CO 2

First off - that's bullshiat logic if ever I heard it. And secondly - if they're worried about using corn as fuel, then switch to cannabis. it's been grown as a food crop for centuries, it's easier to grow than corn and actually better for the soil. plus it can be used as biofuel AND a food source. As a suppliment to the food supply along with corn, it could fill the gap as we increase biofuel production.

Cannabis as food? Are you serious.

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