They're all in the pockets of AIPAC. This country doesn't sneeze without clearing it with Israel.

To paraphrase Lewis Black, "don't just pull your pants down and shiat on my face."

Oy vey!

The two states: State of Confusion. State of Denial.

Solution; intermarry and give up your primitive religions. Or keep on doing the same old crap for the next thousand years.

Hobodeluxe: They're all in the pockets of AIPAC. This country doesn't sneeze without clearing it with Israel.

A little paranoid aren't we? They don't have as much power in the United States as one thinks. In fact, I think the Arabs have FAR greater influence on the United States.

Case in point: Saudis shiatting a brick when Saddam invaded Iraq. Next thing you know, Bush is heading up a international coalition.

Israel isn't the most perfect country in the world. But it's a stable democracy in an unstable part of the world. And that is why U.S. has ties with them, because it is in the U.S. national interest. Turkey also has this honor as well. You don't complain about Turkey's influence on the United States. If Israel could just work our their problems with the Palestinians, without being a douche-bags about it, then they would be cool!

That and Shoah is something that no one wants to see repeated in their lifetime. There is a level of guilt that the U.S. will never live down.

Darth_Lukecash: Saudis shiatting a brick when Saddam invaded Iraq.

That would be Kuwait. I'm going to bed....

Darth_Lukecash:Case in point: Saudis shiatting a brick when Saddam invaded Iraq. Next thing you know, Bush is heading up a international coalition.

you're right... sort of. in fact, i believe prince bandar was informed of the invasion before colin powell, which is really embarrassing for powell.

but it's pretty tough to deny that, along with saudi arabia, israel wields undue influence over the united states government.

If you know what I mean

Darth_Lukecash: Israel isn't the most perfect country in the world. But it's a stable democracy in an unstable part of the world.

yes, but it's a brutal democracy. what it did to the innocent people of gaza is appalling and probably tantamount to war crimes.

That and Shoah is something that no one wants to see repeated in their lifetime. There is a level of guilt that the U.S. will never live down.

this is true. and the guilt is at least partially deserved - and we need to never forget so that the holocaust never happens again. HOWEVER far right politicians like bibi netanyahu and, worse, avigdor lieberman, are becoming what their parents and grandparents despised and feared: fascist terrorists.

drjekel_mrhyde: If you know what I mean

okay, that made me laugh out loud.

If you don't end up with two states, wouldn't Isreal have to let the Palestinians vote?

Darth_Lukecash: Case in point: Saudis Big Oil shiatting a brick when Saddam invaded Iraq. Next thing you know, Bush is heading up a international coalition.

ftfy.

Do you remember the testimony of GHW's ambassador to Iraq as to how GHW wrongfooted Saddam into that?
Listen, the military contracting business is a necessary evil. And that thing has got to have business to survive. The beast has to eat. It's a big part of our economy. Unfortunately it's one of the few manufacturing bases left here.
They've sold everything else down the river.
I guess we're too paranoid to let others make our military stuff. It's the only reason we aren't letting China do it for us.
Any way every so often they have to be thrown a bone and the politicians try to give them one that at least serves some purpose for them. In this case it was a quick romp in the desert. Everyone came out looking good. Schwarzkopf was a hero.
The contractors got a good influx of funds. Saddam was slapped on the wrist. his oil money restricted. he was subjected to inspections and sanctions. But the Beast wasn't satisfied.
It hungered still and put it's agents in place,put the money and media behind them. Then got it's wish. One last big hurrah. One last feast on the corpse of America's treasure.

good ol' boy: If you don't end up with two states, wouldn't Isreal have to let the Palestinians vote?

And that's the rub. The current situation is obviously unsustainable and ultimately immoral, and so the two solutions Israel faces are a two-state solution, or full integration of the West Bank and Gaza Strip into Israel proper. Right now it seems like Israel isn't willing to do either.

Now of course the Palestinians have a lot of responsibility in this too, and they haven't exactly been all that co-operative over the years. But as I've said before, Israel's the one with the bigger gun, and when you've got the bigger gun, the ball's in your court.

I see the problem similar to the wild west when the native Americans were rounded up and put on reservations.
The Palestinians should learn a lesson from them.
They should build casinos and take the Jew's money.

Now mods, you know it's unfair to greenlight an Israel thread after sundown on Friday. Fark's favorite Israel apologist has to sit on the sidelines until sundown on Saturday.

Odd - I couldn't find anything in the letter that suggests opposition to a two-state solution.

Place your bets! Granted, today is Saturday, so that may complicate matters. Therefore, I'll say that this thread will get at least 110 comments before it happens.

Darth_Lukecash: Israel isn't the most perfect country in the world. But it's a stable democracy in an unstable part of the world. And that is why U.S. has ties with them, because it is in the U.S. national interest. Turkey also has this honor as well. You don't complain about Turkey's influence on the United States. If Israel could just work our their problems with the Palestinians, without being a douche-bags about it, then they would be cool!

I don't think that Israel's being a democracy has anything to do with the U.S.' support. First of all, one could question many of Israel's actions as being non-democratic. Second, Israel is the only country whose status in relation to the U.S. is non-negotiable, no matter who is President. Turkey does not have that status.

If Israel does not agree to a two-state solution, then only three options remain:

1. Israel becomes a democratic, bi-national state with equal rights for everyone. This, of course, means that Israel is no longer a Jewish state. Indeed, Palestinians would outnumber Jews.

2. Israel gets rid of all Palestinians and maintains the exclusive Jewish character of Israel. This is ethnic cleansing and a crime against humanity.

3. Israel becomes a true apartheid state. Palestinians have limited rights and freedoms, much like the blacks in apartheid-era South Africa.

Which of those three options is palatable - or even viable? None. The only option is the two-state idea.

I_Love_Cheesecake: Which of those three options is palatable - or even viable? None. The only option is the two-state idea.

The first one is actually pretty not bad.

http://www.http://aipac.org//Publications/SourceMaterialsCongressionalAction/H ousePeaceLetter.pdf




What are YOU looking at?

Mnemia: I_Love_Cheesecake: Which of those three options is palatable - or even viable? None. The only option is the two-state idea.

The first one is actually pretty not bad.

I actually agree, but do you think that Israel would ever let that happen? To them, it's not palatable.

Darth_Lukecash: You don't complain about Turkey's influence on the United States.

That's because the US doesn't cock block Security Council resolution aimed at preventing the Turks from using illegal munitions in highly populated civilian areas.

Darth_Lukecash: A little paranoid aren't we? They don't have as much power in the United States as one thinks. In fact, I think the Arabs have FAR greater influence on the United States.


Get back to me when Muslims dominate the major news media in this country.

Jeffrey Zucker, CEO NBC TV, Zionist
Robert Iger, CEO ABC, Zionist
Leslie Moonves, CEO CBS, grandnephew of David Ben Gurion, Zionist
Peter F. Chernin, President and COO FOX, Zionist

This is the REAL power.

And they use it.

Every day.

Apik0r0s: Jeffrey Zucker, CEO NBC TV, Zionist
Robert Iger, CEO ABC, Zionist
Leslie Moonves, CEO CBS, grandnephew of David Ben Gurion, Zionist
Peter F. Chernin, President and COO FOX, Zionist

This is the REAL power.

And they use it.

Every day.

Really? Why don't I every hear anyone making a similar list of WASPs because it certainly would be longer and comprised of even more powerful people.

equilibrium: Now mods, you know it's unfair to greenlight an Israel thread after sundown on Friday. Fark's favorite Israel apologist has to sit on the sidelines until sundown on Saturday.

Yes, the Dynamic Dual-Citizen (Israel Defender, American Pretender) has retired to his ShabBat cave.

Greenlighting Israeli/Jewish threads at this sensitive "time of the week" is akin to challenging a vampire to a wrestling match at high noon. It reeks of anti-Semitism.

Farker T: Greenlighting Israeli/Jewish threads at this sensitive "time of the week" is akin to challenging a vampire to a wrestling match at high noon. It reeks of anti-Semitism.

No, it's just anti-Tatsumism.

Oh for Fark's sake!!

(tiny kitten gets on Attention Ho Kitty soapbox)

I'm sick of the Israelis beating the West with
the Holocaust guilt trip every time anyone
discusses ovens or eggbeaters or farking
milkshakes with them.

I'm SICK of the PaleSTINKians and their
eterno-blatting about oh so glorious martyrdom and
their turning of Gaza into a giant bubbling toilet kazoo.

Apik0r0s: Jeffrey Zucker, CEO NBC TV, Zionist
Robert Iger, CEO ABC, Zionist
Leslie Moonves, CEO CBS, grandnephew of David Ben Gurion, Zionist
Peter F. Chernin, President and COO FOX, Zionist

This is the REAL power.

And they use it.

Every day.

Don't you love a good saturday morning anti-semitic rant?

Go get yourself a waffle, poach and egg, then get some OJ, then come back and let us know how you..

coco ebert: Really? Why don't I every hear anyone making a similar list of WASPs because it certainly would be longer and comprised of even more powerful people.



And what country, exclusively WASP in nature, is at the center of what is arguably the thorniest, and most intractable US foreign policy issue?

The WTC wasn't targeted because it was seen as the symbolic center of Eskimo power in the USA.

IamSpartacus: Don't you love a good saturday morning anti-semitic rant?

How was that anti-semitic? Or a rant?

IamSpartacus: then come back and let us know how you..

How I what?

How I fail at hotlinking?

Somebody needs to burn AIPAC to the ground.

Okay, first let me say that I fully support a two-state solution and see it as the only way there will truly be peace. You need to have a secure Israel and an economically viable, free Palestine. There is no other way to do it, period, end of story. The settlements in Gaza have been dismantled, which is a start. Now the settlements in the West Bank that are not on the green line (and are in the middle of Palestinian territory) need to follow suit. The remainder are right on the infamous "green line", and will likely need to be negotiated (with some being annexed to Israel proper and others being dismantled).

That being said, the article is ridiculous and the Fark headline is worse. The article that was submitted never quotes the letter in question, only bemoans that AIPAC really opposes peace and hates Palestianians (more or less). Then it links to another article, written by MJ Rosenberg who does exactly the same thing. Then at the very bottom of Rosenberg's article, there is finally a link to the actual text of the letter.

Which is here:

http://www.aipac.org/Publications/SourceMaterialsCongressionalAction/HousePeac eL etter.pdf (pops)

So, Rosenberg links to a letter on the AIPAC site, which by the way says nothing about opposing a two-state solution, but in fact discusses the need to have a Palestinian state side-by-side with Israel that completely gives up terrorism as a political tool.

From the actual letter:

"3) continuation of our insistence on an absolute Palestinian commitment to end violence, terror, and incitement and to build the institutions necessary for a viable Palestinian state living side by side in peace with the Jewish state of Israel inside secure borders."

Well, golly gee. Look at that.

So you know what, fark you Huffington Post, fark you MJ Rosenberg, and a double fark you to submitter for apparently never bothering to read to original letter to begin with. This is nothing but an article full of whargarbbbl linking to another article full of whargarbbl.

Somebody takes your wallet. Offers to give half back, and expects you to be reasonable about it. I don't think so.

it will burn itself, with its very existance.

lasting peace comes only through justice and tolerance.

-aipac, is its own demise.

the world is slowly waking up.

that is the one factor they cannot change.

Just remember folks, Civilians are what die when Israeli weapons miss their targets.

And Hamas's weapons hit theirs.

i support a destroyed israel.

-there...i said "it".

destroyed in the respect that the 'two state' solution is racist and should be shunned.

the land of palestine must be neutral to ALL religions...or it is completely hypocritical.

-by design.

They will eventually support a two state solution...

They just want to build a few more settlements first.

Bauer: it will burn itself, with its very existance.

lasting peace comes only through justice and tolerance.

-aipac, is its own demise.

the world is slowly waking up.

that is the one factor they cannot change.

The problem comes when it burns us with it.

Apik0r0s: coco ebert: Really? Why don't I every hear anyone making a similar list of WASPs because it certainly would be longer and comprised of even more powerful people.

And what country, exclusively WASP in nature, is at the center of what is arguably the thorniest, and most intractable US foreign policy issue?

The WTC wasn't targeted because it was seen as the symbolic center of Eskimo power in the USA.

Actually, neither Israel nor America's Jewish population were the reasons for Osama Bin-Laden's problems with the U.S. (at least before Israel was brought up as a reason!). It was rather America's military presence in Saudi Arabia, which he views as the Holy Land.

Bauer: i support a destroyed israel.

-there...i said "it".

He's a witch, burn him!

i never said it was going to be easy or fun.

we will be lucky if israel does not start ww3.

-if they attack iran...we are all farked.

that kind of 'power' is too vast to entrust to one nation alone, in this day abd age.

if they attack iran...i will push for a full invasion of israel, by every nation on the planet.

-there should be no more 'wars'.

nukes for all...or no nukes for everyone.

that is the only way to ensure a lasting peace.

-or a quick, beautiful death.

I_Love_Cheesecake: If Israel does not agree to a two-state solution, then only three options remain:

1. Israel becomes a democratic, bi-national state with equal rights for everyone. This, of course, means that Israel is no longer a Jewish state. Indeed, Palestinians would outnumber Jews.

2. Israel gets rid of all Palestinians and maintains the exclusive Jewish character of Israel. This is ethnic cleansing and a crime against humanity.

3. Israel becomes a true apartheid state. Palestinians have limited rights and freedoms, much like the blacks in apartheid-era South Africa.

Which of those three options is palatable - or even viable? None. The only option is the two-state idea.

You haz newsletter?

In all seriousness, I've made similar arguments before with jewish relatives and friends. It saddens me that too often the pro-Israel response ends up being knee-jerk opposition to anything that might concievably benefit palestinians even if it would benefit jews - and even if the alternatives lead inevitably to horror and ruin.

good one, froggy.

-i'm sure i will be 'quoted in full' by the zionist entity defender, soon enough.

m-o-o-n...that spells moon.

Bauer: m-o-o-n...that spells moon.

Yes, it does. Yer on my favorites list for a reason.

coco ebert: Apik0r0s: coco ebert: Really? Why don't I every hear anyone making a similar list of WASPs because it certainly would be longer and comprised of even more powerful people.

And what country, exclusively WASP in nature, is at the center of what is arguably the thorniest, and most intractable US foreign policy issue?

The WTC wasn't targeted because it was seen as the symbolic center of Eskimo power in the USA.

Actually, neither Israel nor America's Jewish population were the reasons for Osama Bin-Laden's problems with the U.S. (at least before Israel was brought up as a reason!). It was rather America's military presence in Saudi Arabia, which he views as the Holy Land.

n a second fatwā issued in 1998, bin Laden outlined his objections to American foreign policy towards Israel, as well as the continued presence of American troops in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War.

Link (new window)

Don't say Israel wasn't why we were attacked and then say it was our presence in Saudi Arabia. You know goddamned well it was both.

coco ebert: Apik0r0s: Jeffrey Zucker, CEO NBC TV, Zionist
Robert Iger, CEO ABC, Zionist
Leslie Moonves, CEO CBS, grandnephew of David Ben Gurion, Zionist
Peter F. Chernin, President and COO FOX, Zionist

This is the REAL power.

And they use it.

Every day.

coco ebert: Really? Why don't I every hear anyone making a similar list of WASPs because it certainly would be longer and comprised of even more powerful people.


WASPS make up >60% of the US population, whereas Jews make up under 2%. I'd say that Jews are slightly overrepresented in the media.

Carrying on from an earlier theme:

see...the problem is...there isn't enough good geeen bud to go around.

-free the weed...and your heart and mind will follow.

that is what my jesus tells me.

every.

single.

day.