I'm pretty sure most of todays current crop of wingnuts would have all kinds of warrrgarrble if the original show was just premiering today. After all, it had a one world government , hell it was actually a one Multi-world Government.

It's in the comments on the link, but for those who want it, Shatner's "get a life" tirade: http://www.myvideo.de/watch/127096/Star_Trek_TOS_William_Shatner_SNL_Get_A_Life

As I explained in one of my most widely read articles, Star Trek's Federation (or at least Earth) is definitely socialist by the time of the New Generation series,

The what series?

heh. I remember describing Star Trek's economy to my dad when I was a kid when we went to see one of the movies in theaters. His response 'Sounds like a bunch of communists'

Uhhh... since forever.

They probably went socalist after the invention of that replicator thingie. What's the point of a scarcity driven consumer economy when anyone can clone themselves 400 units of whatever the hell is popular this season....?

DarthBrooks: Provider Number Two bets 40,000 quatloos that the Federation has a market economy and a currency system.

Well, to be fair, in that one TNG episode where they thaw out the cryogenically frozen people, they tell the investment banker dude that they don't have currency or investment anymore.

Weaver95: They probably went socalist after the invention of that replicator thingie. What's the point of a scarcity driven consumer economy when anyone can clone themselves 400 units of whatever the hell is popular this season....?

True dat. I could never reconcile that with the whole latinum thing. Was latinum not replicable?

Dinki: True dat. I could never reconcile that with the whole latinum thing. Was latinum not replicable?

Well, imagine if latinum was some weird complex molecule that could only be assembled naturally from some isotope that only existed in certain environments. If the replicator only had "native" elements to work with, then presumably it couldn't replicate everything.

Dinki: True dat. I could never reconcile that with the whole latinum thing. Was latinum not replicable?

my thought was that some substances would have been too energy intensive to easily replicate.

which leads me to believe that the economics of star trek were based more around the production/consumption/distribution of energy and not about material goods or commodities. Or I could just be making shiat up as I go. It's star trek, not an economics final. yeesh.

kronicfeld: Well, to be fair, in that one TNG episode where they thaw out the cryogenically frozen people, they tell the investment banker dude that they don't have currency or investment anymore.

I'd like to think that said investment broker dude perked up a bit once someone told him where to find the Ferengi.

Weaver95: They probably went socalist after the invention of that replicator thingie.

That, and the holodeck, were two things that didn't make a lot of sense.

Not that they existed, but that everyone was just "meh" about them. It was pretty close to magic.

That technology would also have made a fun and formidable weapon - aim it an an enemy ship and change their hull material to swiss cheese or a screen door. That would take the fight out of anyone, even the Borg.

festus: That, and the holodeck, were two things that didn't make a lot of sense.

Holodecks probably caused a population implosion.

Since 1966? It's always been that way.

Dinki: True dat. I could never reconcile that with the whole latinum thing. Was latinum not replicable?

Bingo. That was why it was valuable.

festus: That technology would also have made a fun and formidable weapon - aim it an an enemy ship and change their hull material to swiss cheese or a screen door. That would take the fight out of anyone, even the Borg

Or how about the transporter? Take half an enemy ship's reactor and stick it in their bridge.

That article just gets so much wrong. This, for example:

By the time of the original series, the Federation already lacks any currency (which is necessary to run a large-scale market economy), and all large enterprises seem to be government-owned; this is even more clearly the case in TNG.

This is completely wrong. There is constant talk of freighters and science expeditions and commerce going on all the time. Maybe somewhat more in DS9, but also in TNG.

This is what happens when your personal ideology is so poisonously venal you can't even imagine an alternative, even fictional.

JPJ007: festus: That technology would also have made a fun and formidable weapon - aim it an an enemy ship and change their hull material to swiss cheese or a screen door. That would take the fight out of anyone, even the Borg

Or how about the transporter? Take half an enemy ship's reactor and stick it in their bridge.

We've got some good ideas going here for an alternative sci-fi show.

Make it a wry comedy too - like Firefly only with way more cool toys like this.

Inside the Federation, there is no currency. Outside, there are the Ferengi. Yes, I see you could call the Federation a socialist paradise, but I think I'd like to live in a paradise.

JPJ007: Or how about the transporter? Take half an enemy ship's reactor and stick it in their bridge.

Transporters are supposed to be able to beam through shields. If the enemy has their shields up, your idea wouldn't work.

festus: Weaver95: They probably went socalist after the invention of that replicator thingie.

That, and the holodeck, were two things that didn't make a lot of sense.

Not that they existed, but that everyone was just "meh" about them. It was pretty close to magic.

Are you agog and amazed by cell phones, the space shuttle or the internet? At one time, those seemed close to magic too.

I agree that replicators and the holodeck would be amazing pieces of technology. But I also think if I grew up after they had been invented, it would never occur to me to think they were all that special. If "they've always been there as long as I can remember," it simply wouldn't occur to me to realize how incredible they actually were.

angrymacface: JPJ007: Or how about the transporter? Take half an enemy ship's reactor and stick it in their bridge.

Transporters are [not] supposed to be able to beam through shields. If the enemy has their shields up, your idea wouldn't work.

(I assume you meant.)



So you use the proposed replicator weapon to take apart their shields, particle by particle, and reconstitute them into merengue. Then you beam the warp core from the engine room to the bridge.

FloydA: So you use the proposed replicator weapon to take apart their shields, particle by particle, and reconstitute them into merengue. Then you beam the warp core from the engine room to the bridge.

Shields are a form of energy. There are no particles in a ST shield.

DamnYankees: FloydA: So you use the proposed replicator weapon to take apart their shields, particle by particle, and reconstitute them into merengue. Then you beam the warp core from the engine room to the bridge.

Shields are a form of energy. There are no particles in a ST shield.

Pshaw. That's simply a conversion issue.

Reading through this page, you realize how many people on the economic right have really taken capitalism to be a rule of the universe, rather than a useful way of describing the current world and how we might best get by in it. The writer of this article apparently thinks that capitalism is by definition the only system which can ever work, regardless of the facts. And so if a fiction presents you with facts which might actually lead to another conclusion, you actually have to accuse the writers of dishonesty, rather than, you know, imagination.

DamnYankees: Reading through this page, you realize how many people on the economic right have really taken capitalism to be a rule of the universe, rather than a useful way of describing the current world and how we might best get by in it. The writer of this article apparently thinks that capitalism is by definition the only system which can ever work, regardless of the facts. And so if a fiction presents you with facts which might actually lead to another conclusion, you actually have to accuse the writers of dishonesty, rather than, you know, imagination.

well...no. Not quite. There are indeed 'other systems' and while they might work 'well enough', they're inefficent (at best) or destructive (at worst). Capitalism is the only system we've found that works well enough to get a society up to the point where it can put a man on the moon. does it have flaws? oh hells yes! But compared to everything else out there, it's the only thing we've got that's worth a damn.

That said, I suppose if you had free and unlimited access to basic commodities (food, medicine, clean water) via the replicator then yeah - socialism would indeed work quite well. in fact, at that point socalism would probably be more efficent than capitalism.

now that we've gotten that out of the way, shall we discuss the banking system employed by Mordor?

in the words of jean luc picard, in star trek humans have evolved beyond the use of money

burndtdan: in the words of jean luc picard, in star trek humans have evolved beyond the use of money

But cannabis is still illegal.

i would also add that i always considered star trek to be an interesting take on how an economy (and the world) might function once resources become effectively infinite.

they can replicate their food out of thin air. they can travel by teleporting instantaneously through space. for all practical, and especially all mundane, purposes, their supplies of energy are infinite.

burndtdan: they can replicate their food out of thin air. they can travel by teleporting instantaneously through space. for all practical, and especially all mundane, purposes, their supplies of energy are infinite.

It's amazing how well your economy functions once you remove scarcity from the equation(s).

Weaver95: burndtdan: in the words of jean luc picard, in star trek humans have evolved beyond the use of money

But cannabis is still illegal.

so is romulan wine, but i didn't see that stop them in the undiscovered country.

and then there's always the space hippies.

burndtdan: they can replicate their food out of thin air. they can travel by teleporting instantaneously through space. for all practical, and especially all mundane, purposes, their supplies of energy are infinite.

Even if certain things like energy are not infinite, the scarcity might only exist at the national level. Sort of like how water is actually finite on this earth, but we don't all just dig our own wells. It's taken care of on a municipal level.

burndtdan: and then there's always the space hippies.

I think the chemical burns scorched the hippie right outta them.

One aspect of star trek that I still find worth discussing is the 'bio-luddite' trend to the universe/setting. The whole 'Wrath of Khan' incident and the history and storylines all indicate that earth had some pretty serious mental/society scars after the eugenics wars. But is genetic engineering really that bad? improving the basic human model isn't wrong, and there is a definite benefit to removing congenital defects from the human genome. But as with most fiction, the prevelent theme is that 'genetic engineering is bad all the time/every time'.

DamnYankees: Shields are a form of energy. There are no particles in a ST shield.

The transporter can convert energy to matter. His theory stands.

itsdan: DamnYankees: Shields are a form of energy. There are no particles in a ST shield.

The transporter can convert energy to matter. His theory stands.

Yeah, within a limited volume of space - his theory fails.

Weaver95: Yeah, within a limited volume of space - his theory fails.

Just need to enhance the power matrix with reactor materials from nuclear wessels.



I did prefer the Stargate: Atlantis method of dealing with the transporter's obviously underused abilities.

We can't get through their armor, wait, can't we beam a nuke right onto their ship?
- Well, the rulebook says no
But it would work right?
- ... Yeah ...
[nuclear boom]

Weaver95: burndtdan: and then there's always the space hippies.

I think the chemical burns scorched the hippie right outta them.

One aspect of star trek that I still find worth discussing is the 'bio-luddite' trend to the universe/setting. The whole 'Wrath of Khan' incident and the history and storylines all indicate that earth had some pretty serious mental/society scars after the eugenics wars. But is genetic engineering really that bad? improving the basic human model isn't wrong, and there is a definite benefit to removing congenital defects from the human genome. But as with most fiction, the prevelent theme is that 'genetic engineering is bad all the time/every time'.

in the long term, any form of genetic enhancement, be it resistance to disease or whatever, would enhance the entire race as those elements would be ingrained in the enhanced and would be passed on (even if muddied up) through natural co-mingling.

for example, if you got rid of the risk of bad eyesight in a portion of the population, eventually the risk of bad eyesight for the entire population would decline... it would be lower in some sectors, but overall there would be improvement.

however, if you take the dr. who theory on genetic manipulation, there are inherently too many unknown variables and you'll just end up turning yourself into a giant essence-sucking scorpion beast.

Weaver95: burndtdan: and then there's always the space hippies.

I think the chemical burns scorched the hippie right outta them.

One aspect of star trek that I still find worth discussing is the 'bio-luddite' trend to the universe/setting. The whole 'Wrath of Khan' incident and the history and storylines all indicate that earth had some pretty serious mental/society scars after the eugenics wars. But is genetic engineering really that bad? improving the basic human model isn't wrong, and there is a definite benefit to removing congenital defects from the human genome. But as with most fiction, the prevelent theme is that 'genetic engineering is bad all the time/every time'.

Well, when one of your augments consolidates power and proceeds to take over the world, I can see how it can make people a little wary of genetic engineering.

burndtdan: however, if you take the dr. who theory on genetic manipulation, there are inherently too many unknown variables and you'll just end up turning yourself into a giant essence-sucking scorpion beast.

ok, so if you don't want to go the genetic engineering route, then work on cybernetic implants. The borg prove that the technology can work, just cut out the whole hive mind thing and add/upgrade whatever you want.

Shostie: Well, when one of your augments consolidates power and proceeds to take over the world, I can see how it can make people a little wary of genetic engineering.

ok, ONE tiny mistake doesn't mean that entire concept is flawed. It's just a matter of training and education. teach them not to conquer the world. that's all.

itsdan: Weaver95: Yeah, within a limited volume of space - his theory fails.

Just need to enhance the power matrix with reactor materials from nuclear wessels.



I did prefer the Stargate: Atlantis method of dealing with the transporter's obviously underused abilities.

We can't get through their armor, wait, can't we beam a nuke right onto their ship?
- Well, the rulebook says no
But it would work right?
- ... Yeah ...
[nuclear boom]

I believe the exchange went more like.

"Hey, Hermiod. Can't we beam a nuke onto that ship?"

"We can, but it's unethical."

"Well, let's see. If we don't they'll destroy our ship, which you are also on. We will all die."

"Bombs away."

/extremely paraphrased

Weaver95: burndtdan: however, if you take the dr. who theory on genetic manipulation, there are inherently too many unknown variables and you'll just end up turning yourself into a giant essence-sucking scorpion beast.

ok, so if you don't want to go the genetic engineering route, then work on cybernetic implants. The borg prove that the technology can work, just cut out the whole hive mind thing and add/upgrade whatever you want.

can we at least get internalized communication receivers, like bluetooth inside your ear?

i hate holding the phone, and i hate having to wear headphones.

itsdan: Weaver95: Yeah, within a limited volume of space - his theory fails.

Just need to enhance the power matrix with reactor materials from nuclear wessels.


Just modulate the frequency of the deflector array and set up a phased matter containment grid around the entire enemy vessel's shield, and bingo! You've got your limited volume of space.

Then it's a simple matter of diverting ship's power from the warp reactor to the transporter to convert the shield energy into physical particles which the replicator weapon can then convert to any substance you like. And then you can lock the transporter onto the other ship's warp core and site-to-site beam it to their bridge.

See how easy it is?

Shostie: itsdan: Weaver95: Yeah, within a limited volume of space - his theory fails.

Just need to enhance the power matrix with reactor materials from nuclear wessels.



I did prefer the Stargate: Atlantis method of dealing with the transporter's obviously underused abilities.

We can't get through their armor, wait, can't we beam a nuke right onto their ship?
- Well, the rulebook says no
But it would work right?
- ... Yeah ...
[nuclear boom]

I believe the exchange went more like.

"Hey, Hermiod. Can't we beam a nuke onto that ship?"

"We can, but it's unethical."

"Well, let's see. If we don't they'll destroy our ship, which you are also on. We will all die."

"Bombs away."

/extremely paraphrased

that's more indepth than something my Delta Green group thought up...

player #1 - "dammit! we can't shove the high explosives through the interdimensional gate, it'll only work for living creatures!"

Player #2 - 'umm...well, what about that fungi from yuggoth we clobbered back in the lobby?'

[player #1 and #2 look at one another]

Player #1 - 'you get the migo and i'll grab some duct tape.'

Player #2 - 'already on it!'

Migo - [green] [blue] [red] [red] [red]

burndtdan:

can we at least get internalized communication receivers, like bluetooth inside your ear?

i hate holding the phone, and i hate having to wear headphones.


Doctor Who explored that issue as well... Bad idea.

Weaver95: Shostie: Well, when one of your augments consolidates power and proceeds to take over the world, I can see how it can make people a little wary of genetic engineering.

ok, ONE tiny mistake doesn't mean that entire concept is flawed. It's just a matter of training and education. teach them not to conquer the world. that's all.

Of course, then another team of augments tried to build an army with the help of Arik Soong to carry on where Kahn left off.

With the exception of Bashir, pretty much every experiment with genetic engineering has had catastrophic results.

/Kahn, Soong, and of course all the crap the Klingons tried to pull with their own augments

FloydA: Just modulate the frequency of the deflector array and set up a phased matter containment grid around the entire enemy vessel's shield, and bingo! You've got your limited volume of space.

yeah, which is great until I flick the warp drive on and off a few times. the feedback should blow out every EPS conduit on deck 12.

Shostie: With the exception of Bashir, pretty much every experiment with genetic engineering has had catastrophic results.



yeah - it failed because every OTHER experiment taught the kids to grow up and be evil. Bashir was taught to be ethical.

Weaver95: Shostie: With the exception of Bashir, pretty much every experiment with genetic engineering has had catastrophic results.



yeah - it failed because every OTHER experiment taught the kids to grow up and be evil. Bashir was taught to be ethical.

That's the lesson Star Trek was trying to teach us:

"Do NOT teach your genetically-engineered supermen to be evil."

Weaver95: yeah - it failed because every OTHER experiment taught the kids to grow up and be evil. Bashir was taught to be ethical.

There were those 3 enhanced people who kept reoccurring on DS9, were they taught to be retarded?