Torture does work, it's just not ethical and tends to generate feelings of anger towards those responsible.

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Got it, Smitty?

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Get it yet?

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Do you comprehend, f*ckface?

Of course it works. It just makes Americans look like assholes.

thamike:
Do you comprehend, f*ckface?

Time to switch to decaf.

Of course it works, that's how we found out that KSM was the 9/11 mastermind, the OK City mastermind, the JFK assassination mastermind, and the cameraman for the faking of the moon landing.

Apeboy: Time to switch to decaf.

Welcome to Fark.

This is a superb example of being meta-wrong.

You're argument is implicitly of the form premise conclusion.

Premise: torture works
Conclusion: torture is OK

This is beautifully wrong on two levels, because the article clearly explains that it doesn't work. Secondly EVEN IF your premise was correct, your conclusion would STILL be wrong.

It's brilliant - you've reduced a national disgrace to an argument of the form.

Dogs are amphibians, therefore they can fly.

thamike: Apeboy: Time to switch to decaf.

Welcome to Fark.

That's exactly what I was thinking when I posted.

It can work. That doesn't mean it does work in all cases. Also, if any means justify the ends, then this is not the country I thought it was.

Ugh, the nutjobs are going to have a field day with this.

"Why were those lines originally cut out of the memo?"
"Obama is hiding the fact that torture works!"
"Bush kept us safe for 7 years. Obama's gonna undo all of that!"

Oh, wait--they're already saying that last one.

Torture does work, to a degree. If it didn't, then no one would do it.

But it has been proven many times that torture is not the most effective means of getting solid, reliable information.

And it forces us to lose the moral high ground.

brigid_fitch: Oh, wait--they're already saying that last one.

How many Captains were kidnapped by pirates under Bush' watch?

"I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past," he wrote, "but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given."

Looks like someone didn't get the message of the day.

Yeah, if it turns out Obama is continuing the torture policies of Bush, he's outta there. He won't even get the Dem nomination.

/wishful thinking

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -Mark 8:36

Even IF torture worked, it would still not be worth doing.

Subby: You are stupid. Good day to you.

"Works sometimes" != "reliable way to gain intelligence"

Guessing also works sometimes.

Apeboy: thamike:
Do you comprehend, f*ckface?

Time to switch to decaf.

no need... Submittard and any other apologists for torture cannot be harangued by their own idiocy enough.

an excellent debate on this subject. ^{(^)}

Hobodeluxe: an excellent debate on this subject. (^)

I submitted that video - it was redlit. Here's the important exchange at the end:

FLEISCHER: Paul, it was your administration's head of the CIA who objected to the release of those memos.

BEGALA: It doesn't -- it doesn't make...

FLEISCHER: It's a Clinton official who said that.

BEGALA: It doesn't make him right. Torture is always wrong, Ari. We executed...

FLEISCHER: I agree with you that torture is always wrong. BEGALA: Excuse me for talking while you're interrupting.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Let Paul finish.

BEGALA: We -- our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?

(7 SECONDS OF SILENCE)

FLEISCHER: Well, again, Paul, I guess you already are the jury, the prosecutor, the judge, and a citizen all rolled into one. You have already pronounced judgment that it is a crime.

I_C_Weener: How many Captains were kidnapped by pirates under Bush' watch?

Do airline pilots count? Their title is usually "captain".

"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

I don't think these guys went straight to waterboarding with the interviewee - - don't you think that they tried finding out such information through other means before moving on to the "enhanced" interrogation tactics? Or maybe we should have asked really, really nicely?

KaponoFor3: I don't think these guys went straight to waterboarding with the interviewee - - don't you think that they tried finding out such information through other means before moving on to the "enhanced" interrogation tactics?

I don't see how this is relevant. Torture doesn't become acceptable if it comes after a long interview.

KaponoFor3: Or maybe we should have asked really, really nicely?

Why not? It's worked before.

Even Nice Guy Eddie knows torture doesn't work....



"If you farking beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire, now that don't necessarily make it farking so"

Flab: I_C_Weener: How many Captains were kidnapped by pirates under Bush' watch?

Do airline pilots count? Their title is usually "captain".

Okay...fine. You win this time. But I'll be back...with more half-truths and I'll use comic sans for effect.

Wasn't the use of torture one of the post-WMD reasons to invade Iraq?

I think what some people fail to understand is that this is the antithesis of patriotism. the idea that your safety is worth more than your ideals. is this not why we fight and die? I don't see where compromising our ideals makes us better.

it was astounding how Peggy Noonan Sunday said "sometimes you just gotta move on." No we should not sweep this under the rug. It's time to take a look in the mirror at the hard truths. We will never recover any credibility letting this go. We only make it easier for someone else to repeat the offense.

I'm sorry but we can't let a couple of neocon lawyers reinterpret our laws based on expediency or convenience behind closed doors. A lot of people need to answer some really hard questions. You can't say "we don't torture" when we've executed people for the same offense.

I_C_Weener: brigid_fitch: Oh, wait--they're already saying that last one.

How many Captains were kidnapped by pirates under Bush' watch?

At least four:

Captain John Ogonowski, American Airlines, Flight 11
Captain Victor Saracini, United Airlines, Flight 175
Captain Charles Burlingame, American Airlines, Flight 77
and
Captain Jason Dahl, United Airlines, Flight 93.


Any other stupid f**king questions?

Hobodeluxe: I think what some people fail to understand is that this is the antithesis of patriotism. the idea that your safety is worth more than your ideals. is this not why we fight and die? I don't see where compromising our ideals makes us better.

If any of these people ever cite the "founders" again, they should be ashamed. Patrick Henry would knock them on their ass.

Hobodeluxe: it was astounding how Peggy Noonan Sunday said "sometimes you just gotta move on." No we should not sweep this under the rug. It's time to take a look in the mirror at the hard truths. We will never recover any credibility letting this go. We only make it easier for someone else to repeat the offense.

Noonan lost all of her credibility with me. It's all a veneer. The whole goddamm conservative movement is a veneer for their sickening tribalism. It's vomitous.

Lando Lincoln: Torture does work, to a degree. If it didn't, then no one would do it.

Newsflash: some people torture because they're sick farks, not because they give a shiat about getting information out of anyone.

DamnYankees: I don't see how this is relevant. Torture doesn't become acceptable if it comes after a long interview.

It's relevant to the quote I posted -- "there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means". If they tried other means first, and we didn't receive the information that way, then doesn't that mean that there *is* a way of knowing whether it could have been obtained through other means, and that the answer is no

KaponoFor3: "The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means," Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. "The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

I don't think these guys went straight to waterboarding with the interviewee - - don't you think that they tried finding out such information through other means before moving on to the "enhanced" interrogation tactics? Or maybe we should have asked really, really nicely?

If we torture, if we then condone that torture, hide it, excuse it, and open the door for it to continue, then we are worthless. Let the enemy ravage us all they wish; the idea of America will already be dead. There will be nothing left worth defending.

KaponoFor3: If they tried other means first, and we didn't receive the information that way, then doesn't that mean that there *is* a way of knowing whether it could have been obtained through other means, and that the answer is no

Well, considering he wrote what he did, it seems like he thought there were other avenues. Otherwise he wouldn't have written that.

FloydA: Any other stupid f**king questions?

First...I was joking. Why don't bleeding heart liberals have a sense of humor?

Second, those were terrorists, not pirates. Why do you disagree with the administration, the UN, the military, and the entire non-right wing press who made that distinction?

Also, I hope that no one makes fun of you for mouthing the words I'm writing. Not everyone is as sensitive to brain damage as I am.

DamnYankees: "Works sometimes" != "reliable way to gain intelligence"

Guessing also works sometimes.

also "reliable way to gain intelligence" != "morally acceptable" in any case.

So, wrong on two counts, Smitty.

Lando Lincoln: If it didn't, then no one would do it.

You're talking about a country that has engaged in a decades-long, completely failed War on Drugs.

We're masters at doing things we know don't work.

xiaodown: also "reliable way to gain intelligence" != "morally acceptable" in any case.

Well you actually could make a utilitarian argument for it. I might, myself, if you could prove the premise.

vartian:
If we torture, if we then condone that torture, hide it, excuse it, and open the door for it to continue, then we are worthless. Let the enemy ravage us all they wish; the idea of America will already be dead. There will be nothing left worth defending.

Where I am condoning it, hiding it, excusing it, or opening the door for it to continue? I am solely stating that I disagree with the initial quote posted in this thread from the story, that is all. I'm not making any moral judgments about waterboarding.

damageddude: Looks like someone didn't get the message of the day.

That's pretty much what Obama has said.

He's looking to prosecute the policy makers. He's not going to go after the field operatives who were told by the White House and government lawyers that it was legal.

DamnYankees: If any of these people ever cite the "founders" again, they should be ashamed. Patrick Henry would knock them on their ass.

Patrick Henry hell,Benjamin Martin

KaponoFor3: It's relevant to the quote I posted -- "there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means". If they tried other means first, and we didn't receive the information that way, then doesn't that mean that there *is* a way of knowing whether it could have been obtained through other means, and that the answer is no

CIA dude: 'maaaaan, that terrorist was a tough nut to crack. I had a team working on him for 2 weeks and we waterboarded him for 7 hours last night. But we finally got him to crack and tell us where the safe house is located.'
NSA dude: 'wait - is that the house on 1234 baybury lane?'
CIA: 'um...yeah. how did you know that? we JUST got the info.'
NSA: 'oh, well we cracked his email password 4 weeks ago, then tacked a trojan horse virus onto every email he sent to his terrorist buddies. we've got a whole database full of information about this particular cell.'
CIA: 'oh. well, I gotta get back to Gitmo. we're starting a new prisoner on the machine tomorrow night.'
NSA: 'let me know how it goes!'
CIA: 'sure thing dude.'

I_C_Weener: FloydA: Any other stupid f**king questions?

First...I was joking. Why don't bleeding heart liberals have a sense of humor?


You seem to know a lot about my political views.

Everything you "know" about the subject is wrong, of course, but that doesn't stop you from knowing a lot.

And no, I really don't think the September 11th attacks are particularly funny.


Second, those were terrorists, not pirates. Why do you disagree with the administration, the UN, the military, and the entire non-right wing press who made that distinction?


Can you explain the difference between the two? Or do you just "know" that they are different?



Also, I hope that no one makes fun of you for mouthing the words I'm writing. Not everyone is as sensitive to brain damage as I am.

Not everyone has as much first hand experience.

FloydA: I_C_Weener: FloydA: Any other stupid f**king questions?

First...I was joking. Why don't bleeding heart liberals have a sense of humor?


You seem to know a lot about my political views.

Everything you "know" about the subject is wrong, of course, but that doesn't stop you from knowing a lot.

And no, I really don't think the September 11th attacks are particularly funny.


Second, those were terrorists, not pirates. Why do you disagree with the administration, the UN, the military, and the entire non-right wing press who made that distinction?


Can you explain the difference between the two? Or do you just "know" that they are different?



Also, I hope that no one makes fun of you for mouthing the words I'm writing. Not everyone is as sensitive to brain damage as I am.

Not everyone has as much first hand experience.

Oh, you seem a ball of nerves today. Prostate problems? It happens. Keeps ya on edge too.

You are way too eager for a fight young'un.

I_C_Weener: FloydA: I_C_Weener: FloydA: Any other stupid f**king questions?

First...I was joking. Why don't bleeding heart liberals have a sense of humor?


You seem to know a lot about my political views.

Everything you "know" about the subject is wrong, of course, but that doesn't stop you from knowing a lot.

And no, I really don't think the September 11th attacks are particularly funny.


Second, those were terrorists, not pirates. Why do you disagree with the administration, the UN, the military, and the entire non-right wing press who made that distinction?


Can you explain the difference between the two? Or do you just "know" that they are different?



Also, I hope that no one makes fun of you for mouthing the words I'm writing. Not everyone is as sensitive to brain damage as I am.

Not everyone has as much first hand experience.

Oh, you seem a ball of nerves today. Prostate problems? It happens. Keeps ya on edge too.


I'm sorry, but I LOL'd

FloydA: I_C_Weener:
You seem to know a lot about my political views.

Everything you "know" about the subject is wrong, of course, but that doesn't stop you from knowing a lot.

When a mind does not *know* itself, it is flawed. When a mind is flawed, the man is flawed. When a man is flawed, that which he touches is flawed. It is said that what a flawed man sees, his hands make broken.

I_C_Weener:

Oh, you seem a ball of nerves today. Prostate problems? It happens. Keeps ya on edge too.

You are way too eager for a fight young'un.

Ha ha, that's a good one. You're now farkied in pink as "Knows a lot."

You know, what really works better than torture is having covert CIA operatives with front companies that have worldwide connections and are highly familiar with nuclear smuggling. Oh wait, we can't have that can we?!

FloydA: Ha ha, that's a good one. You're now farkied in pink as "Knows a lot."

Lawdy, lawdy, lawdy. I'm pink farkied. Its torture I tells ya. Torture!!!

Weaver95:

When a mind does not *know* itself, it is flawed. When a mind is flawed, the man is flawed. When a man is flawed, that which he touches is flawed. It is said that what a flawed man sees, his hands make broken.


I liked Agent Skinner better that Dak'kon, I admit it.

Apeboy: That's exactly what I was thinking when I posted.

You were thinking when you posted?