What's a little simulated drowning between friends?

It's effective. It's apparently just not, you know, that effective.

OK!!! God is great! God IS great!

cameroncrazy1984: It's effective. It's apparently just not, you know, that effective.

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you want information, it doesn't work well. If you want to send a message to the world that the gloves are off and that America isn't holding back anymore, then it's very effective.

At least until the memos come out.

Mentat: If you want to send a message to the world that the gloves are off and that America isn't holding back anymore, then it's very effective.

I prefer sending in a couple of these:

Mentat: If you want to send a message to the world that the gloves are off and that America isn't holding back anymore, then it's very effective.

Comin' again to save the motherfarkin' day, yeah!

Longest. Ticking Time Bomb. Ever.

Mentat: Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you want information, it doesn't work well. If you want to send a message to the world that the gloves are off and that America isn't holding back anymore, then it's very effective.

So the objective is to intimidate people who happily become suicide bombers to get to their 72 virgins faster?

They haven't surrendered yet. More waterboarding. Stat.

NewportBarGuy: I prefer sending in a couple of these:

That actually doesn't send the message Cheney wanted to send. He wanted the world to know that the moral and ethical limits we have traditionally set for ourselves were gone. He wanted to terrorize the terrorists.

Mentat: He wanted to terrorize the terrorists.

Oh, well then! Mission Accomplished!

Mentat: Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you want information, it doesn't work well. If you want to send a message to the world that the gloves are off and that America isn't holding back anymore, then it's very effective.

Who gets that message, exactly?
Did Bush & Cheney allow the tur'rists one phone call before starting in with the thumbscrews?

Funny math. 6x per day? Maybe they count every pour of water a separate incident.

here's what i don't get. what is going through your mind when you say, "okay, we've waterboarded him 160 times. so far, nothing. but lets keep doing it."

by the way, holding people accountable for acting like that means you hate america, apparently.

flavor of the month: here's what i don't get. what is going through your mind when you say, "okay, we've waterboarded him 160 times. so far, nothing. but lets keep doing it."

by the way, holding people accountable for acting like that means you hate america, apparently.

I thought the object of waterboarding was to convince your victim that you were going to drown them. After a couple dozen times, while I don't doubt it was immoral and illegal, what it also seems is rather pointless. Unless your true aim is simply torture a la Torquemada, rather than "harsh tactics" of obtaining information.

flavor of the month: here's what i don't get. what is going through your mind when you say, "okay, we've waterboarded him 160 times. so far, nothing. but lets keep doing it."

My most gracious reading? It means that they weren't getting any new information out of him, but were pressured by someone higher up to produce, so they just kept at it.

My least gracious reading is that they decided to do it just so they could see how much they could subject someone to before he had a complete nervous breakdown. How much sympathy was someone like KSM going to engender anyway?

I'll throw my hat in the ring as someone who generally supports waterboarding as saying "182 f*cking times is way, waaaaay too many times a reasonable person would consider using something and still consider it a viable tool against an individual."

How many times do you hit a screw with a hammer until you determine that it's just not the right tool?

So, there's that.

Damn. How many times is that even in one DAY? Insane.

For anyone who maybe thinks "hey waterboarding is nothing, surely" I'll recommend:

Scylla waterboards himself (Straight Dope thread, link pops)

Basically, a guy who starts out as "how bad can it be, really?" AND has some special breathing skills due to life experience, finds out that maybe there is actually something to it, just with experiments on his own self.

Okay, KSM isn't scum, he's the virus that infects the insects that feed on the waste produced by scum. That said, this qualifies as f*cking barbarism. How can the guards not be culpable after the 53rd time or so? You have to know that past a point, you no longer even enjoy the pretense of results, and you're merely torturing this guy so that someone can get their jollies.

People need to swing for this. I'm dead serious. This is the kind of stuff that will never be forgotten and will stain our nation permanently.

House of Tards: Longest. Ticking Time Bomb. Ever.

Jack Bauer must be pretty hardcore if he stayed awake for one whole month waiting for the vital time-sensitive information that could only be obtained through application of harsh physical techniques that, we were assured, work immediately

According to the torture memos, waterboarding is supposed to not exceed 20 minutes at one application. Assuming they'd go ahead and waterboard someone for the full 20 minutes to get the most out of the alloted time, that's 3660 minutes of simulated drowning for KSM, or a full 61 hours of simulated drowning over one month. If the waterboarding was distributed evenly over the month that's 6.1 times per day, or just over two hours of drowning every day. Good times!

But making someone endure 61 hours of their body physically responding to what it believes is drowning, a sensation you cannot intellectually override according to everyone from torture critics to even the CIA memos, isn't torture, guys. The wet rag on your face with water poured over it preventing you from breathing for minutes at a time is more of a therapeutic hydration treatment. I hear it's great for pores that can get so clogged on a regimen of days on end of wearing a hood in the sun while maintaining a stress position that only causes "muscle fatigue".

/nearly drowned when I was a kid
//0 stars, would not drown again
///remember when Dick Cheney joked about how he had no problem with waterboarding people? This is what he was referring to.

There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always- do not forget this, Winston- always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless.
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face- forever.

seems more and more relevant these days.

I am the walrus.

Occam's Chainsaw: Okay, KSM isn't scum, he's the virus that infects the insects that feed on the waste produced by scum. That said, this qualifies as f*cking barbarism. How can the guards not be culpable after the 53rd time or so?

Personally, I think it calls (should have called?) for rules dictating limits of excess. I don't think the guards are guilty of a crime because they were authorized to do it. They may be guilty of stupid though, but I want to see what other information comes out.

Mentat: cameroncrazy1984: It's effective. It's apparently just not, you know, that effective.

Depends on what you're trying to accomplish. If you want information, it doesn't work well. If you want to send a message to the world that the gloves are off and that America isn't holding back anymore, then it's very effective.

At least until the memos come out.

I'm all for being proactive but torture is proven ineffective. People say whatever the hell you want them to say to get the torture to stop. Also by the time you get around to the torture things have changed so much the information isn't useful.

Gwendolyn: People say whatever the hell you want them to say to get the torture to stop.

People lie anyway. I don't think a Hadji ever told me his real name the first time I asked him.

Wonderful. I'm sure that will help shore up our battered image. Why the hell do we do this? It doesn't even work!

dahmers love zombie: I thought the object of waterboarding was to convince your victim that you were going to drown them.

They trick the body into thinking it is drowning, not the person. There is a difference.

ZipSplat: I don't think the guards are guilty of a crime because they were authorized to do it.

No, they are guilty of a crime. Let's say one of them was ordered to kill the reporter who showed up in his underwear at the press conference. Would he be guilty of a crime if he went through with it? Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

Gwendolyn: I'm all for being proactive but torture is proven ineffective. People say whatever the hell you want them to say to get the torture to stop. Also by the time you get around to the torture things have changed so much the information isn't useful.

That's my point. The first time might be for information. The next 181 times are just to terrorize the prisoner.

GAT_00: Wonderful. I'm sure that will help shore up our battered image. Why the hell do we do this? It doesn't even work!

not true - it's a great way to kill a slow sunday night while on guard duty. just grab someone out of solitary and water board 'em for a couple hours.

Ryan2065: Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

CIA agents are soldiers?

ZipSplat: Ryan2065: Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

CIA agents are soldiers?

having had the distinct displeasure of actually meeting a bona fide CIA interrogator some years ago, some of them are barely human.

ZipSplat: Personally, I think it calls (should have called?) for rules dictating limits of excess. I don't think the guards are guilty of a crime because they were authorized to do it. They may be guilty of stupid though, but I want to see what other information comes out.

I hereby authorize you to rape babies. Go ahead and follow that order and see how well the Nuremberg defense works.

Weaver95: ZipSplat: Ryan2065: Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

CIA agents are soldiers?

having had the distinct displeasure of actually meeting a bona fide CIA interrogator some years ago, some of them are barely human.

Your dad informed on you, didn't he.

cameroncrazy1984: Weaver95: ZipSplat: Ryan2065: Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

CIA agents are soldiers?

having had the distinct displeasure of actually meeting a bona fide CIA interrogator some years ago, some of them are barely human.

Your dad informed on you, didn't he.

No, I used to work for VQ-2 when they were in Rota, Spain. I met a number of...interesting people....in that line of work.

I never liked the CIA guys. they always seemed to leave a slime trail behind them. And the NSA guys just had that creepy Cheshire cat smile that made you want to slap 'em silly.

ZipSplat: Ryan2065: Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

CIA agents are soldiers?

Ah, you are right... They aren't guilty of anything because I called them soldiers and not CIA agents. Way to go.

Ryan2065: ZipSplat: Ryan2065: Yes, because he is a soldier, not a robot and is capable of making his own decisions.

CIA agents are soldiers?

Ah, you are right... They aren't guilty of anything because I called them soldiers and not CIA agents. Way to go.

well, if the CIA agents aren't soldiers then the geneva conventions don't apply to them. So don't shed a tear when they get kidnapped and tortured by the enemy.

Weaver95: well, if the CIA agents aren't soldiers then the geneva conventions don't apply to them. So don't shed a tear when they get kidnapped and tortured by the enemy.

No, they'd be considered humanitarian aid workers.

Ryan2065: Weaver95: well, if the CIA agents aren't soldiers then the geneva conventions don't apply to them. So don't shed a tear when they get kidnapped and tortured by the enemy.

No, they'd be considered humanitarian aid workers.

even better! absolutely nobody cares if those people get raped and murdered.

Oh, Fark. You provide me with so much...

The real criminals are going free.

Generation_D: The real criminals are going free.

that's generally how it shakes out in the real world.

You 9-11 us, we'll Dick Cheney you. Fight terrorism with terrorism.

Simple logic, simple emotional appeal.

/if only it were that simple

Weaver95: Generation_D: The real criminals are going free.

that's generally how it shakes out in the real world.

And of course, we have to respond in the only way we know how: close the barn door, lock it, and nail it shut.

Occam's Chainsaw: Weaver95: Generation_D: The real criminals are going free.

that's generally how it shakes out in the real world.

And of course, we have to respond in the only way we know how: close the barn door, lock it, and nail it shut.


I respond by getting drunk and masturbating.

... this tactic may be atypical.

House of Tards: Longest. Ticking Time Bomb. Ever.

This.

Generation_D: The real criminals are going free.

What criminals? I thought torture was OK when officially authorized. Dur. TERORRISTS. Enemies.

The farking pussy democrats are gonna let these guys walk, too. disgusting on both sides of the aisle.

Apparently nobody has stopped to think, Maybe it wasn't so much effective but it was damn fun.

It's the fun factor people!

Good thing we still don't have any evidence that they've waterboarded actual human beings yet. Call me when we do and I still probably won't care.

bobbette:
/nearly drowned when I was a kid
//0 stars, would not drown again


I know this is a thread about torture, but I still lol'd.

/lol

WaltFlanagansDog: Good thing we still don't have any evidence that they've waterboarded actual human beings yet. Call me when we do and I still probably won't care.

because torturing incarcerated humans doesn't dehumanize us as a nation. get the fark out to china or some shiat.