Well subby, we'll see how all this goes once the Cuban dictatorship stops skimming of the top of money sent back to the island. Ohh and I bet those political prisoners will be out walking around Havana by Monday too.

RedLeg1525: Well subby, we'll see how all this goes once the Cuban dictatorship stops skimming of the top of money sent back to the island. Ohh and I bet those political prisoners will be out walking around Havana by Monday too.

Yeah, because the status quo has worked sooooooooooo well.

How do you help to bring change to a country? You open up and trade with them. See, Vietnam and China.

They are implementing market mechanisms slowly, but way more so than if we shut them out of the world. Cuba will change slowly, and the people of Cuba will be better off with the increased revenue.

The only other alternative is regime change and we all know how well that shiat turns out.

The two of us talking about regime change. The people in Cuba will not see the increased revenue. The government of Cuba is a communist dictatorship. Smiles and handshakes to the cameras and international media. I'll believe it when the people imprisoned for the reason of having a dissenting opinion of the State are free.

Good.

About fkn time.

Nice summary of the current leg of the 'Let Us Blow You Because We Should Feel Guilty' Tour.

/the Messiah must be on his fifth set of kneepads

RedLeg1525: The government of Cuba is a communist dictatorship.

So is Vietnam and China, relaxed trading policies are opening up all kinds of freedoms in those countrys. No, they are not western-style democracies, but you can't argue about their improvements.

Aside from the U.S. who else has sanctions on Cuba? Mexico and Canada broke away from the embargo years ago. I'm not sure of any European sanctions. Why hasn't the economics of the Island improved?

ttc2301: Nice summary of the current leg of the 'Let Us Blow You Because We Should Feel Guilty' Tour.

Tell us how you really feel...

I'm guessing you're pining for the days of cowboy diplomacy, where you're either with us or against us and with the terrorists. You lack the simple rigid structure of Deciderating^tm that helped you feel secure on a daily basis. You just don't know what to do when the options exceed bomb, snub, and openly fellate.

RedLeg1525: Why hasn't the economics of the Island improved?

Because the American economic embargo is much tighter than you think. They are 90 miles off our coast. We are the world's economic engine. Cutting them off from the U.S. has kept Castro in power, not destabilized him. It's the same thing with Iran. If we just do a 180 on our policies, those strongmen have no great satan to rally against. Cooler heads prevail.

It's called diplomacy, it ain't perfect but it's cheaper and usually has better results than armed conflict.

NewportBarGuy: RedLeg1525: The government of Cuba is a communist dictatorship.

So is Vietnam and China, relaxed trading policies are opening up all kinds of freedoms in those countrys. No, they are not western-style democracies, but you can't argue about their improvements.

Odd how the two countries you choose to use as economic examples have some of the absolute worst human rights violations in recent decades.

NewportBarGuy: It's the same thing with Iran. If we just do a 180 on our policies, those strongmen have no great satan to rally against. Cooler heads prevail.

Is there a way we can apply this domestically somehow ?

RedLeg1525: Odd how the two countries you choose to use as economic examples have some of the absolute worst human rights violations in recent decades.

I didn't say it was perfect. The world is a messy place. To hold out hope against hope that somehow they will one day be a magical utopia without some sort of engagement really bellies any desire you might have to come to an amicable solution.

Them = BAD is not really an ethos.

Mordant: Is there a way we can apply this domestically somehow ?

We're already on the way there. Honestly, Moderate Democratic politics, as long as they include people like Jim Webb, has been seen by this nation as the only way forward. It's a beginning.

NewportBarGuy: RedLeg1525: Why hasn't the economics of the Island improved?

Because the American economic embargo is much tighter than you think. They are 90 miles off our coast. We are the world's economic engine. Cutting them off from the U.S. has kept Castro in power, not destabilized him. It's the same thing with Iran. If we just do a 180 on our policies, those strongmen have no great satan to rally against. Cooler heads prevail.

It's called diplomacy, it ain't perfect but it's cheaper and usually has better results than armed conflict.

Look, we aren't on the same page there scout. Canada, Mexico, The entire continent of South America can trade all the fark they want with Cuba. You are over estimating this countries importance.

I'd prefer a foreign policy basicly telling everyone else to get bent. I know it'll never happen you cannot unring a bell.

RedLeg1525: I'd prefer a foreign policy basicly telling everyone else to get bent. I know it'll never happen you cannot unring a bell.

So long as you stay in the dance, sometimes you're leading, sometimes you're following. If you bow out, everybody else keeps dancing and you no longer get to have a meaningful effect. Diplomacy in a nutshell.

RedLeg1525: Look, we aren't on the same page there scout. Canada, Mexico, The entire continent of South America can trade all the fark they want with Cuba. You are over estimating this countries importance.

They don't even equal the state of Texas as an economic power. Opening up U.S. bank accounts to be spent in Cuba would turn that island back into the playground of Meyer Lansky. That is why the Cuban-Americans are pissed. They know how much money can be made, and they want to get back their share they lost 50 years ago. Ain't gonna happen. Private Equity guys are going to pounce on that baby when she opens up.

This is all about money, not politics. Money.

NewportBarGuy: RedLeg1525: Look, we aren't on the same page there scout. Canada, Mexico, The entire continent of South America can trade all the fark they want with Cuba. You are over estimating this countries importance.

They don't even equal the state of Texas as an economic power. Opening up U.S. bank accounts to be spent in Cuba would turn that island back into the playground of Meyer Lansky. That is why the Cuban-Americans are pissed. They know how much money can be made, and they want to get back their share they lost 50 years ago. Ain't gonna happen. Private Equity guys are going to pounce on that baby when she opens up.

This is all about money, not politics. Money.

So you are basicly comfirming to me that it isn't about the people. Fark the People. Lets go make some farkin Money. I'm pretty sure that won't lead to any trouble.

I like how Cuba is still the most evil Satan-infested place on earth to Republicans, and 20 years after China levels college kids with tanks, they're our a-number-one trade partner times a thousand with no objection from the outraged freedom God warriors.

RedLeg1525: So you are basicly comfirming to me that it isn't about the people. Fark the People. Lets go make some farkin Money. I'm pretty sure that won't lead to any trouble.

Meh, it worked for Teddy Roosevelt, another pussy Cav Scout.

RedLeg1525: I'd prefer a foreign policy basicly telling everyone else to get bent. I know it'll never happen you cannot unring a bell.

facepalm

Seriously. I hate to tell you this, but without healthy imports and exports our country withers up and dies. And your view is that we should give the middle finger to the world? The problem with the last American regime was that they were horrendous businessmen. They had no idea about "taking care of their customers" which, face it, really is a relationship nations have between each other.

If we want to prosper, we can't snub the world. We've got to wheel and deal and make advantageous agreements, and you don't do that by being a cockmunch. You do that by at least appearing humble but being a pit bull when it comes to negotiations. You do it by talking and talking and talking. You pull people aside and talk some more. You beg, plead, compromise with one side of your mouth as you bully, cajole and manipulate with the other.

The whole "our way or fark you" ethos has done more to weaken our nation and the supposed upper echelons of our economy than anything else.

Atillathepun: The whole "our way or fark you" ethos has done more to weaken our nation and the supposed upper echelons of our economy than anything else.

So why do you automatically assume that a failed policy will continue to fail ? This is the problem with libs, always ready to try new things rather than looking hard enough for someone to blame when the same solutions don't work.

Mordant: So why do you automatically assume that a failed policy will continue to fail ? This is the problem with libs, always ready to try new things rather than looking hard enough for someone to blame when the same solutions don't work.

You just landed a guest spot on a Fox News infotainment program.

Atillathepun: If we want to prosper, we can't snub the world. We've got to wheel and deal and make advantageous agreements, and you don't do that by being a cockmunch. You do that by at least appearing humble but being a pit bull when it comes to negotiations. You do it by talking and talking and talking. You pull people aside and talk some more. You beg, plead, compromise with one side of your mouth as you bully, cajole and manipulate with the other.

As Will Rogers said, diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggie" until you can find a rock.

I really am enjoying Obama making everyone nervous.

Good times for a news junkie.

I can't wait to see what happens when Obama nukes some gun stealing Nazis who were cloning aborted fetus. The talking points are going to be epic.

Smoothing the way for the new world order...

:)

Just went green. Have fun.

Mordant: So why do you automatically assume that a failed policy will continue to fail ? This is the problem with libs, always ready to try new things rather than looking hard enough for someone to blame when the same solutions don't work.

Dude.

9.8 out of 10.
That was good.

Well, it's a start.

Still a long way to go, though.

And it's a bit easier without the whole "Cold War" thingy.

NewportBarGuy: RedLeg1525: Why hasn't the economics of the Island improved?

Because the American economic embargo is much tighter than you think. They are 90 miles off our coast. We are the world's economic engine. Cutting them off from the U.S. has kept Castro in power, not destabilized him. It's the same thing with Iran. If we just do a 180 on our policies, those strongmen have no great satan to rally against. Cooler heads prevail.

It's called diplomacy, it ain't perfect but it's cheaper and usually has better results than armed conflict.

What a load. Cuba has been able to trade with every other country on the planet. The problem is not that we somehow have stifled Cuba's trade; its that they have nothing else they can trade that they already haven't. Immediately after we stopped buying sugar the USSR stepped in and bought it. The same goes for cigars.

BTW if you happened to be correct you should be praising the former republican congress as liberators of the Cuban people (Clinton signed):

Snowflake Tubbybottom: What a load. Cuba has been able to trade with every other country on the planet.

Again, you fail to grasp the concept that open markets with us will save them. You are carrying water for people who want to retake Cuba and have their land holdings preserved. Do you enjoy being a useful tool, because that is what the Cuban-American movement is.

I guess you like being teabagged.

Mmm. Shocker.

DarthBrooks: Mmm. Shocker.

I thought you were more focused on cupping the balls and licking the taint.

DarthBrooks: Mmm. Shocker.

Kinda pissed my Farky didn't show up for you- luckily, I can spot your intellectual dishonesty from a mile off. See, 'cos I know you've got at least a couple of functioning brain cells, but you mindlessly cheerlead with no sense of purpose or how stupid it makes you/those of your political ilk look to normal people- y'know, those people who help win elections.

Here's a thought- stop being a douchetwaddle. If you've got a reasoned position on the issue, lay it out here, and we'll dissect it or support it per how well you lay it out.

Or- keep this BS up, I'm sure that works just as well.

NewportBarGuy: Snowflake Tubbybottom: What a load. Cuba has been able to trade with every other country on the planet.

Again, you fail to grasp the concept that open markets with us will save them. You are carrying water for people who want to retake Cuba and have their land holdings preserved. Do you enjoy being a useful tool, because that is what the Cuban-American movement is.

I guess you like being teabagged.

Save them how exactly? By funding the government that keeps people oppressed? And as far as those who left Cuba wanting property rights: screw em.. they left.

But then again everything is easier when you make rash assumptions based on stereotypes so carry on sir. But maybe you'd care to explain in detail how only our economic involvement will save them where they could not do so under the availability of being able to trade with every other nation on the planet?

You say I fail to grasp the notion whereas you fail to begin to describe the benefits that seemingly only we can provide them.

Snowflake Tubbybottom: NewportBarGuy: Snowflake Tubbybottom: What a load. Cuba has been able to trade with every other country on the planet.

Again, you fail to grasp the concept that open markets with us will save them. You are carrying water for people who want to retake Cuba and have their land holdings preserved. Do you enjoy being a useful tool, because that is what the Cuban-American movement is.

I guess you like being teabagged.

Save them how exactly? By funding the government that keeps people oppressed? And as far as those who left Cuba wanting property rights: screw em.. they left.

But then again everything is easier when you make rash assumptions based on stereotypes so carry on sir. But maybe you'd care to explain in detail how only our economic involvement will save them where they could not do so under the availability of being able to trade with every other nation on the planet?

You say I fail to grasp the notion whereas you fail to begin to describe the benefits that seemingly only we can provide them.

Ahh, the supremacy of the American economic juggernaut is only to be invoked at your convenience, eh, Snow? I don't see that Newport said only we could help the Cubans; but you gotta admit, we can do manyfold what any other individual country on the planet can do. As the article said, the Obama administration was only interested in talking if the Castro regime would talk about freedom of press and such- and the Cubans seemed to be willing to do that. Now, talk the talk, walk the walk, etc, but it's a helluva step, wouldn't you say?

So, tell me, if the Castro regime agreed to step down, open up elections, and free political prisoners, what problem is there with this, and why would it be a detriment to the US? Seems like there's no other real reason, unless you're doing the sort of mindless cheerleading I just called your compatriot out for.

ragekage: Ahh, the supremacy of the American economic juggernaut is only to be invoked at your convenience, eh, Snow? I don't see that Newport said only we could help the Cubans; but you gotta admit, we can do manyfold what any other individual country on the planet can do. As the article said, the Obama administration was only interested in talking if the Castro regime would talk about freedom of press and such- and the Cubans seemed to be willing to do that. Now, talk the talk, walk the walk, etc, but it's a helluva step, wouldn't you say?


He did say that our our economic involvement would save them. You can talk all you want so far as you don't give away something for nothing. If you really want some diplomacy and change to happen you have to engage in some quid pro quo.

So, tell me, if the Castro regime agreed to step down, open up elections, and free political prisoners, what problem is there with this, and why would it be a detriment to the US? Seems like there's no other real reason, unless you're doing the sort of mindless cheerleading I just called your compatriot out for.

Well that's not going to happen and Obama isn't anywhere near optimistic of anything of the sorts getting done.

FTFA: During his opening remarks, Obama did not say he would seek to end the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. But he indicated an openness to shift U.S. policies, pointing to his decision this week to ease travel and financial restrictions on Cuban Americans.

keep your friends close and your enemies closer...

Not to mention that Cuba is a toothless shark, it looks like a threat but it's no threat to anyone but itself. Furthermore the "full belly" theory of politics works better than the "scorched earth one." In other words if you can feed the people they feel less prone to hate you, they may not like you but they like being fed, hence how the Commies became popular in China, the former USSR, Vietnam and North Korea. Also why Chavez became popular in Venezuela. Are they heroes? No not really but they did feed those that they needed to feed therefore gaining their support and gaining power. If you do the same in this situation you take away the ammo from the Castros and let the people truly see what wonders the world holds. Are we as the US their ultimate salvation? No we are not but it doesn't hurt to have them on our side. And yes it will take time.

I'm tired of our country not recognizing its neighbor. Yo, people, it's Cuba. They're right over there. Sure, we're not crazy about the way they keep their lawn, but for pity's sake, we need to acknowledge their lawn gnomes. My lawn, get off of it. Cuba's lawn, acknowledge it.

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Well that's not going to happen and Obama isn't anywhere near optimistic of anything of the sorts getting done.

FTFA: During his opening remarks, Obama did not say he would seek to end the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. But he indicated an openness to shift U.S. policies, pointing to his decision this week to ease travel and financial restrictions on Cuban Americans.

See, that's a valid opinion to hold- but if you're wrong, I'm gonna expect you to eat some crow. We've got another seven years or so, given the current state of the GOP, so I'll check back then. ;)

Shut up DarthBrooks, you cock.

I see what you did there.

The whole boycott of Cuba is just plain asinine. We sure showed Fidel who's the boss didn't we.

Who knew that Obama was French?

The best thing to happen to our policy in Cuba in the last few decades is the fact that Obama can win an election without Florida's electoral votes.

NewportBarGuy: It's called diplomacy, it ain't perfect but it's cheaper and usually has better results than armed conflict.



i imagine this has caused a few minor unarmed conflicts...

Snowflake Tubbybottom: By funding the government that keeps people oppressed?

It's worked well in the past...at least until the tyrants get sick of taking orders

I had a patient a few weeks back that made me cry. It was an unusually long transport in the ambulance thanks to traffic and her not being an urgent priority "Get to the ER Yesterday" call.

She told me how she lived in Cuba when the wall went up around what is now the American Gitmo base. She was 12 when it happened, out with her Aunt for some reason or another. When the lockdown happened, she was just on the wrong side.

She has not seen her mother, father, or her brother and two sisters since she was 12. She moved here when she was 18 after working on the base for years, figuring she'd never see her family again.

I don't know what the right answer is to this crap, but obviously the crap we've been doing for over the last half a century isn't working for either of us.

Long overdue. There haven't been Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba for a long time, and AFAIK there aren't Cuban troops still running around Africa engaging in 'adventurism'.

Although Posada's an obvious problem. Piss off the Cubans if we don't hand him over, alarm every former and current messy-handed CIA asset if we do. Would have been much more convenient if he'd tried to enter via boat and not made it.