Wut?

Depends on the union and whether or not they are actually under-compensated.

what's stupid about that?

workers' wages have been dropping while executive pay has been increasing by leaps and bounds. the income gap in america has been increasing. the higher income someone has, the less of their income goes toward basic consumption. hence, we've been relying on credit to maintain requisite demand to support our economy.

the credit bubble has popped. we need to start pumping more of the income in this country down to the middle class to provide the demand.

besides, considering the income gap, you could take away a fraction of the income executives earn, spread it among their employees instead, and greatly improve things without really significantly impacting the executive at all.

an executive getting a $10 million bonus could pay 100 people a six-figure salary instead.

My brother in-law is a union employee for a large grocery company. His company's business has increased so much that he has to work a lot of overtime to keep up.

Apparently when the economy slows, people cook more meals at home and grocery sales go up.

Since the economic slump, he has bought a new log splitter and a large pull behind leaf vacuum system for his lawn mower.

So, essentially what the submitter claims IS true. He gets good pay because of the union and his is spending it.

/not the submitter

Con_Authority: My brother in-law is a union employee for a large grocery company. His company's business has increased so much that he has to work a lot of overtime to keep up.

Apparently when the economy slows, people cook more meals at home and grocery sales go up.

Since the economic slump, he has bought a new log splitter and a large pull behind leaf vacuum system for his lawn mower.

So, essentially what the submitter claims IS true. He gets good pay because of the union and his is spending it.

/not the submitter

Whew! Well that's it boys, I'm declaring the recession is OVER.

Good work.

Andyr2120: Con_Authority: My brother in-law is a union employee for a large grocery company. His company's business has increased so much that he has to work a lot of overtime to keep up.

Apparently when the economy slows, people cook more meals at home and grocery sales go up.

Since the economic slump, he has bought a new log splitter and a large pull behind leaf vacuum system for his lawn mower.

So, essentially what the submitter claims IS true. He gets good pay because of the union and his is spending it.

/not the submitter

Whew! Well that's it boys, I'm declaring the recession is OVER.

Good work.

Oh too funny. LMAO. Log splitter and a large pull!

TheDumbBlonde: Andyr2120: Con_Authority: My brother in-law is a union employee for a large grocery company. His company's business has increased so much that he has to work a lot of overtime to keep up.

Apparently when the economy slows, people cook more meals at home and grocery sales go up.

Since the economic slump, he has bought a new log splitter and a large pull behind leaf vacuum system for his lawn mower.

So, essentially what the submitter claims IS true. He gets good pay because of the union and his is spending it.

/not the submitter

Whew! Well that's it boys, I'm declaring the recession is OVER.

Good work.

Oh too funny. LMAO. Log splitter and a large pull!

oh too funny. LMAO. consumption of goods is a fundamental tenet of basic economics and that's exactly what he described.

burndtdan: TheDumbBlonde: Andyr2120: Con_Authority: My brother in-law is a union employee for a large grocery company. His company's business has increased so much that he has to work a lot of overtime to keep up.

Apparently when the economy slows, people cook more meals at home and grocery sales go up.

Since the economic slump, he has bought a new log splitter and a large pull behind leaf vacuum system for his lawn mower.

So, essentially what the submitter claims IS true. He gets good pay because of the union and his is spending it.

/not the submitter

Whew! Well that's it boys, I'm declaring the recession is OVER.

Good work.

Oh too funny. LMAO. Log splitter and a large pull!

oh too funny. LMAO. consumption of goods is a fundamental tenet of basic economics and that's exactly what he described.

Oh do shut up.

TheDumbBlonde: Oh do shut up.

So, please do tell us, which goods and services are the REAL one's that contribute to the economy? I'll sit by with my pen and paper ready to learn.

Remember when our politicians turned our economy into a consumer based economy? Besides being a flawed plan, tell us what consumption is good and which is bad...

By the way, the $1,600 log spliter? Made in America. The $3,000 leaf vacuum? Made in America.

burndtdan: what's stupid about that?

It's completely insipid and overly simplistic. It is the kind of nonsense I would expect the unions to spread while campaigning hard to remove the provision from the NLRA that was designed to protect workers from undue influence by employers during union drives. Now, I wonder why they would want to do that... Yes, it certainly boggles the mind.

Nabb1: It's completely insipid and overly simplistic. It is the kind of nonsense I would expect the unions to spread while campaigning hard to remove the provision from the NLRA that was designed to protect workers from undue influence by employers during union drives. Now, I wonder why they would want to do that... Yes, it certainly boggles the mind.

boggles my mind why the companies would be against this then if it is as you say removing a basic protection for workers.
would this not give them more power to influence workers then?

something just isn't making sense if that is the case. both sides working against their better interests.

Hobodeluxe: boggles my mind why the companies would be against this then if it is as you say removing a basic protection for workers.
would this not give them more power to influence workers then?

The whole point of the secret ballot is to protect workers from any influence. When it was passed, the employers had far more clout and power than the unions. Clearly, unions have come a long way since the 1930's. When they start asking to remove that protection that was put in place for the benefit of the workers, yes, I get really, really skeptical about their motives.

Wow. People still think that this is legitimate economic theory????

Whoa, I'm gonna sit this one out because the union that is trying to organize my workplace is on the short end of the stick when you factor in fees and all that garbage. I also negotiate pretty well on my lonesome.

However, some of my good friends are union folk and have managed to get people that have traditionally been wildly exploited a living wage.

It's one of those crazy interwebby things where things are not really black and white. But I don't want to stand in the way of a good broadbrushing.

Nabb1: The whole point of the secret ballot is to protect workers from any influence.

I meant "undue influence." I guess "intimidation" would have been a better word. Hey, I'm tired.

farking unionized idiots.

I'm with brap: I can negotiate a really good salary on my own, without having to pay some pack of farking leeches 3% of my salary to do absolutely nothing with. The reason I can do that? Because I actually do work. Unlike most of the other unionized slugs I've had to work with. Broadbrush or not, I've personally never had a good experience when unions were concerned. The mentality is just... wrong.

Everyone owes you something, sure, right, no problem, something for nothing is right over there in between the piles of free money and the unicorn. Just take as much as you'd like, no reason to give anything back.

Meanwhile I've got problems and their all taking their mandatory 15 minute afternoon break or leaving at exactly 5:00pm...

Yes, I saw my grammatical error. After the preview, even.

I need a unionized proofreader to help out between normal business hours. Thirteen paid holidays, seven even weeks paid vacation, full medical and dental benefits. Starts at $27.50/hour, no experience needed. Apply within.

OMG people want labor provisions and a health society! This is crazy retardation!!!! People will only work if they have an opportunity to screw everyone else over and become richer than they really imagine!!! We are ending capitalism!!!

I LOVE the unions!!! I have fond memories of the summer of 1984 & 1985, when I worked for an international manufacturer of consumer products during the first two summers I was in college. I worked in the parts warehouse, alone, responsible for making sure that the overnight parts bins that were not going to be used that day were weighed, logged in, and put back in the proper location in the warehouse for storage.

First thing every morning I had to go do my "job" that was required by union contracts. That was the worst one hour of my workday, just only being paid $18.67 an hour (back when $18.67 was EXCELLENT pay for some snot-nosed college brat) to do such a "difficult" job. So the rest of my 7 hours on the clock I would take my forklift down the production lines checking out and BSing with the college girls on the lines, BSing with people in nearby departments, or reading the newspaper or magazines. They actually had a rule that I could NOT sleep on the job - one I broke so many times and even got caught(it was during college break and of course I had to party every night!), but the management COULDN'T fire me!!!! Back then it was "God bless the unions"!!!!

Then again, because of my experience in the unions, today I am not a supporter of unions at all and think they lost their usefulness 25 - 30 years ago...

workers' wages have been dropping while executive pay has been increasing by leaps and bounds.

And there is no executive union yet they make tons of money, thus proving unions don't work.

And when the wages are higher, companies make less money. In order for companies to make the same or more money, they charge the consumers more. Consumers buy less when prices are raised on them.

Duh.

steelpeg: I LOVE the unions!!! I have fond memories of the summer of 1984 & 1985, when I worked for an international manufacturer of consumer products during the first two summers I was in college. I worked in the parts warehouse, alone, responsible for making sure that the overnight parts bins that were not going to be used that day were weighed, logged in, and put back in the proper location in the warehouse for storage.

First thing every morning I had to go do my "job" that was required by union contracts. That was the worst one hour of my workday, just only being paid $18.67 an hour (back when $18.67 was EXCELLENT pay for some snot-nosed college brat) to do such a "difficult" job. So the rest of my 7 hours on the clock I would take my forklift down the production lines checking out and BSing with the college girls on the lines, BSing with people in nearby departments, or reading the newspaper or magazines. They actually had a rule that I could NOT sleep on the job - one I broke so many times and even got caught(it was during college break and of course I had to party every night!), but the management COULDN'T fire me!!!! Back then it was "God bless the unions"!!!!

Then again, because of my experience in the unions, today I am not a supporter of unions at all and think they lost their usefulness 25 - 30 years ago...

I'm sure you think affirmative action has run its course as well.

When unions are working right they play an important role in helping the middle-class and have the effect of the rising tide that lifts the smaller boats of lower class wages. Of course over the last decade or so they've abdicated this role, grown bloated and spent their time and energy engaged in self-absorbed and counter-productive whining about NAFTA.

steelpeg: think they lost their usefulness 25 - 30 years ago...

With the income gap increasing I think they are even more necessary today. But only stupid Americans have swallowed the right-wing claim that they are bad for the economy. Mega$ salaries for top executives are a waste of money! It is almost as if they were unionized.... Or in the same club...

wee: I can negotiate a really good salary on my own,

Well, that settles it then. If you don't need a union then obviously nobody does.

And even if they do, who cares as long as you're getting yours?

Nabb1: Nabb1: The whole point of the secret ballot is to protect workers from any influence.

I meant "undue influence." I guess "intimidation" would have been a better word. Hey, I'm tired.

EFCA doesn't remove the right to a secret ballot. It just puts the prerogative for the ballot in the hands of workers, instead of with the company.

Stolen from kornkob-

Okay kids-- here's the deal. You can only choose one of 2 positions:

a) Unions are the saving grace of civilization without which there would be no clean water, art, primary schools, beer of any sort or breathable water. Anyone who disagrees is either Hitler or a sheep.

b) Unions embody the worst of all humanity and they all kick puppies. Unions invented cancer, rape and cannibalism which are the 3 things they spend most of their time promoting. Anyone who disagrees is an uneducated moran. You know who else liked unions? That's right-- that socialist pig Hitler.


Now, choose A or B and line up on your respective sides of the Farking Gorge hurling insults and ad hominem arguments at the other side

burndtdan: workers' wages have been dropping while executive pay has been increasing by leaps and bounds. the income gap in america has been increasing. the higher income someone has, the less of their income goes toward basic consumption. hence, we've been relying on credit to maintain requisite demand to support our economy.

Wages have been DROPPING? I can buy that they are loosing purchasing power because of inflation, a problem created by the government/federal reserve.

Now a question. The way that you appear to be viewing your statement is that workers are under compensated. The way I am seeing it, the executives are being overcompensated. Especially seeing the results they have brought their companies.

Unions? Fark em. I'm with brap and wee. I've done fine on my own in terms of negotiating my wage. If I want to earn more, I need to invest in myself and increase my skill sets. More skills = the ability to successfully demand a higher wage.

If all I can do is operate a socket wrench, a skill a 12 year old can master, then I should expect a low wage. If I can build, install, and calibrate a 30 camera real time digital video security system w/network access, and be willing to work 16 hour days to get it installed, then I should be able to successfully demand a higher wage.

I've seen Unions and at best I see mediocrity. At worst I see stagnation and rewarding of bad behavior. Sure they did great work back when workers had no rights, but unions have done their job, they won. The US has some of the best employee protection laws in the world. Sure there are some people they help from getting screwed, but the name of the game is cost/benefit and the benefits they provide don't justify the costs in my book.

If the corporations suddenly gain an unfair upper hand somehow, if employee protections are repealed, then unions will come back. But continuing to say unions are good today because they were needed 100 years ago is just stupid.

As a member of a profession that routinely gets screwed over by our employers, yet logistically are unable to unionize, I'm getting a real kick...

Unions and their employees aren't perfect, but good lord would it be a hell of a lot worse without them.

UpTheIrons:

Now, choose A or B and line up on your respective sides of the Farking Gorge hurling insults and ad hominem arguments at the other side

This summarizes every politics thread on Fark.

Crotchhair: The US has some of the best employee protection laws in the world.

Huh. Wonder how that happened.

While I enjoy a good true/false black/white dichotomy as much as the next guy, do me a favor and read through my post.

I feel like my context is being wildly violated by Hessian rapists.

Unions or not, declining wages and a reduction of the middle class have resulted in a stagnating economy. Instead of real wages we've been told that credit will be our savior. O'RLY?

Crosshair: burndtdan: workers' wages have been dropping while executive pay has been increasing by leaps and bounds. the income gap in america has been increasing. the higher income someone has, the less of their income goes toward basic consumption. hence, we've been relying on credit to maintain requisite demand to support our economy.

Wages have been DROPPING? I can buy that they are loosing purchasing power because of inflation, a problem created by the government/federal reserve.

Now a question. The way that you appear to be viewing your statement is that workers are under compensated. The way I am seeing it, the executives are being overcompensated. Especially seeing the results they have brought their companies.

Unions? Fark em. I'm with brap and wee. I've done fine on my own in terms of negotiating my wage. If I want to earn more, I need to invest in myself and increase my skill sets. More skills = the ability to successfully demand a higher wage.

If all I can do is operate a socket wrench, a skill a 12 year old can master, then I should expect a low wage. If I can build, install, and calibrate a 30 camera real time digital video security system w/network access, and be willing to work 16 hour days to get it installed, then I should be able to successfully demand a higher wage.

I've seen Unions and at best I see mediocrity. At worst I see stagnation and rewarding of bad behavior. Sure they did great work back when workers had no rights, but unions have done their job, they won. The US has some of the best employee protection laws in the world. Sure there are some people they help from getting screwed, but the name of the game is cost/benefit and the benefits they provide don't justify the costs in my book.

If the corporations suddenly gain an unfair upper hand somehow, if employee protections are repealed, then unions will come back. But continuing to say unions are good today because they were needed 100 years ago is just stupid.

Since you can do it just fine on your own, that means everybody can!
You proved unions aren't necessary because clearly everybody that isn't you and wants to be unionized is a lazy unskilled piece of shiat, right?

And this help how during a time when companies are trying to cut payroll in order to stay afloat?

People should shut up about unions unless they're describing their own career choices. Telling someone they should or shouldn't be in a union is like telling them anything else about their lives that's none of your business. The American economy should be big enough to embrace all kinds of arrangements, union, non-union, public, private. Some people who make the most noise about the free market seem to think the least of letting things they don't agree with succeed or fail on their own merits. A true free market should let all these ideas operate and compete fairly.

As an economist (well, T-minus one month until BA), this isn't an inherently stupid idea. It's just demand-side.

It's true that the wealthy tend to invest their money in things that directly create jobs (hiring folk to run businesses), but right now, few people are, because the economy's bad an everyone's skittish. Giving money to rich people right now won't do a lot, because they'll wait. Workers will spend that money. They sure as hell aren't saving it.

Joliet_Jake: Nabb1: Nabb1: The whole point of the secret ballot is to protect workers from any influence.

I meant "undue influence." I guess "intimidation" would have been a better word. Hey, I'm tired.

EFCA doesn't remove the right to a secret ballot. It just puts the prerogative for the ballot in the hands of workers, instead of with the company.

He doesn't care about the facts, he just needs to suck big businesses cock for a while longer.

I wish to Hell the unions never would have done a thing for this country and people had to live in it. They don't deserve what unions gave them. farking sheep.



Rashnu: When unions are working right they play an important role in helping the middle-class and have the effect of the rising tide that lifts the smaller boats of lower class wages. Of course over the last decade or so they've abdicated this role, grown bloated and spent their time and energy engaged in self-absorbed and counter-productive whining about NAFTA.

You had me up to there. NAFTA has destroyed us. Free trade is a joke. Watch us try and bounce out of this without manufacturing.

//not union, nor wannabe.

The more unions there are, the more jobs will move to right to work states like Florida...

So I guess it is good for me, in a sense.

furiousxgeorge: And there is no executive union yet they make tons of money, thus proving unions don't work.

Collusion: it's the rich man's union. Incestuous boards mean that your compensation is protected, so long as you protect the income of those around you.

The Dog Ate The Constitution: I'm sure you think affirmative action has run its course as well.

Huh, and I thought I read the article thoroughly, I must have missed the affirmative action part...or are you just muddying the waters with only one thing - as if I must think life for the American workers is "just perfect". If you are waiting for life to be perfect, just wait four years (or maybe eight)...Obama will fix everything...

Chiponyasu: As an economist (well, T-minus one month until BA), this isn't an inherently stupid idea. It's just demand-side.

It's true that the wealthy tend to invest their money in things that directly create jobs (hiring folk to run businesses), but right now, few people are, because the economy's bad an everyone's skittish. Giving money to rich people right now won't do a lot, because they'll wait. Workers will spend that money. They sure as hell aren't saving it.

It doesn't count until you've been through grad school.

Unions are a pretty good tool if you have a workplace that's the grown up equivalent of junior high school. The politics can get ridiculous when people in management let their little vendettas and power trips get to them.

I guess I'm the complete opposite of a stereotypical unionized federal employee. I work 40 hours, plus 5-10 hours of overtime per week. My numbers are great, my quality is good. Ohhh, and starting this summer I can do all of these things at home. I love work from home. For that I can thank the union.

Occam's Chainsaw: Collusion: it's the rich man's union. Incestuous boards mean that your compensation is protected, so long as you protect the income of those around you.

Nah, businesses and the powerful organizing to get their share == Good capitalism. Workers doing it === bad capitalism.

Saiga410: And this help how during a time when companies are trying to cut payroll in order to stay afloat?

You can't cut the bottom completely out of the pyramid and expect it to stand. You can shave a hell of a lot off the top, though, and it'll remain stable.

steelpeg: The Dog Ate The Constitution: I'm sure you think affirmative action has run its course as well.

Huh, and I thought I read the article thoroughly, I must have missed the affirmative action part...or are you just muddying the waters with only one thing - as if I must think life for the American workers is "just perfect". If you are waiting for life to be perfect, just wait four years (or maybe eight)...Obama will fix everything...

racist

burndtdan: what's stupid about that?

workers' wages have been dropping while executive pay has been increasing by leaps and bounds. the income gap in america has been increasing. the higher income someone has, the less of their income goes toward basic consumption. hence, we've been relying on credit to maintain requisite demand to support our economy.

the credit bubble has popped. we need to start pumping more of the income in this country down to the middle class to provide the demand.

besides, considering the income gap, you could take away a fraction of the income executives earn, spread it among their employees instead, and greatly improve things without really significantly impacting the executive at all.

an executive getting a $10 million bonus could pay 100 people a six-figure salary instead.

The best and the brightest from prestigious universities have failed us in economics and in business ethics. The gap between out of touch executives and the workers is destroying large corporations. Yet there is a problem with your idea. If the people form unions, then what is left of the manufacturing jobs will simply go overseas. We are in a global economy now. It's not 1965 and it costs too much to ship things.

Good luck forming unions in service jobs as that is mostly what is left. As technology advances millions of office jobs are going to evaporate as well since so many office jobs are simply pushing data from one area to another.

I don't have any answers to these problems, but the old ideas of worker solidarity, and more college degrees for white collar jobs instead isn't working.

Please, tell me where all these cushy union jobs are.

Oh, wait, you can't? Because they're all fake anecdotes?

If union work was so great as you all make it out to be, you'd have the best people in the country working in labor jobs because there'd be competition for them.

Saiga410: And this help how during a time when companies are trying to cut payroll in order to stay afloat?

Companies want to cut employee payroll, not executive.

That's the whole problem here. Executive pay has skyrocketed while worker pay has been stagnant. The skyrocketing executive pay has led to inflation, meaning that the worker pay is worth less than it used to be.

But really, point me toward one of these alleged cushy union jobs, because I'd love to have a job right now.

EmmaLou: I guess I'm the complete opposite of a stereotypical unionized federal employee. I work 40 hours, plus 5-10 hours of overtime per week. My numbers are great, my quality is good. Ohhh, and starting this summer I can do all of these things at home. I love work from home. For that I can thank the union.

Unions are like anything, good and bad in different ways. They've been SUPER good to the people who make up the backbone of this country, but half of them are too goddamned stupid to realize it.

Nina_Hartley's_Ass: Crotchhair: The US has some of the best employee protection laws in the world.

Huh. Wonder how that happened.

Just because I needed diapers when I was a baby doesn't mean I need them when I'm 39. I needed training wheels on my bike when I was learning to ride, but now I don't. The point being: Because unions served a purpose back when there were no/minimal labor laws does not give any support to the assertion they should still be around.