NEWSFLASH People: Doctors are not God (even if some act like they are).

Sometimes the most educated guesses are wrong. Sometimes people we think will die, don't. Sometimes people who we think won't die, do. Sometimes people just have bad, unexpected outcomes.

If there is gross negligence, then sue away, but this whole "anything unanticipated or bad = lawsuit" mentality helps no one but the trial lawyers.

eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

This is taking place in Toronto, Braiac. Try RTFA.

eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

I hope you were trolling. Right? Because, you know, a glance at the first farking word of the article would tell you that this is not happening in the USA...

TORONTO -- The parents of Baby Kaylee say they are meeting with lawyers to discuss questions they have about their child's care at Toronto's Hospital for Sick Children.

After baby somehow keeps

How is babby formed? How girl get praegnant?

TheDumbBlonde: eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

This is taking place in Toronto, Braiac. Try RTFA.

eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

Don't forget education. You know, things like reading and geography. If only our education system wasn't so terrible, you would have been able to read the article and see that this isn't taking place in the United States.

/However, I think you did that on purpose, so 1/10

how is babby killed

Karma Chameleon: how is babby killed

I am truly sorry for their lots.

Bummer, and to think the hospital just doesn't have the heart to stand by their decision.

If watching house has taught us anything, it's that you need to guess and treat at least 3 different diagnosis before finding the right one

mason4300: eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

Don't forget education. You know, things like reading and geography. If only our education system wasn't so terrible, you would have been able to read the article and see that this isn't taking place in the United States.

/However, I think you did that on purpose, so 1/10



You think?

I think not.

The way in which humans are "allowed to die" is much less humane than how animals are killed. Prime example: Terry Schiavo was starved to death over the period of a week, instead of being given a quick injection that would allow her to simply float away. Starving someone to death is horrible and absolutely inhumane, and delivering morphine to a patient for pain management in that situation is questionable because you have a limited ability to assess their actual level of pain.

Here's what I propose.

Lots of people have trouble with personally administering euthanasia or killing one human to save another. Fine. Some people don't. Let's identify these people, let them wear masks in the hospital to hide their identity, and in cases like this, take action. If you like, we could have two injections given (one being a sham) by two different people simultaneously in order to add ambiguity regard who actually euthanized the patient. I'm fine with whatever restrictions you want to place on the procedure. But let's get the job done, and as a "small side benefit," allow people to die with dignity and not starve to death in a hospital.

Current result (eventually): 2 dead kids
End result under my plan: 1 dead kid, 1 live kid.

SwingingJohnson: mason4300: eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

Don't forget education. You know, things like reading and geography. If only our education system wasn't so terrible, you would have been able to read the article and see that this isn't taking place in the United States.

/However, I think you did that on purpose, so 1/10



You think?

I think not.

I really hope so. Not that I'd be surprised if he was serious, though.

thereadlines: let them wear masks in the hospital to hide their identity, and in cases like this, take action. If you like, we could have two injections given (one being a sham) by two different people simultaneously in order to add ambiguity regard who actually euthanized the patient..



Who is the real masked killer? Find out in the next episode of "Whodunnit:Lethal Injection !!

/images hotter than the burn from a lethal injection...

eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

I started to light up a flame for the post, even highlighting, hitting the quote button, and starting to mentally form the reply... then it dawned on me.

7/10

As strange as this sounds, I'm not entirely surprised.

Sick Kids has been a nexus for some solid research and medical innovation, certainly. They also have an incredibly well-funded PR and fundraising operation that relies heavily on phone calls, infomercials, and tug-those-heartstrings "PSAs", despite having an endowment that could completely fund the operation forever.

I wonder if some of the higher-ups were aware that, maybe, Kaylee wasn't going to die, but it would be good marketing to gin up a baby transplant story and keep the parents in the dark, just for a little while, just so they can make the "right" decision -- gotta haul in more fundraising dollars. Therefore, a week's worth of stories about this poor kid's imminent death at SICK KIDS and her parents' heartwrenching decision at SICK KIDS to help another child live at SICK KIDS, all taking place at SICK KIDS.

I am all for groundbreaking medical research and well-funded hospitals -- all of which will be more difficult to achieve at facilities that don't have Sick Kids' monster endowment should the above scenario, or something similar, turn out to be halfway accurate. One corrupt organization that accepts donations harms the overall reputation of such organizations, and reduces the probablility that randomly-chosen individuals will donate to any given organization, barring immense outreach work to counteract the effect of the malfeasance. I'm currently watching a nonprofit that I used to work for die a slow death due to horrifying mismanagement and incompetence (and possibly more -- but not going to say anything for now; the incompetent also tend to be incredibly litigious).

/you'd be amazed (ok, maybe not) how much money is blown on fundraising and where your fundraising dollars go

Her parents named her Kaylee. She was never going to amount to anything anyway.

You know, given the circumstances I'd be pretty pissed, too.

She probably doesn't have long, and it's possible some overzealous doctor wanted to do something for another patient and made him/herself believe that the child would die soon. Doctors can convince themselves of a diagnosis (just watch House).

I hope they don't sue, but I wouldn't blame them if they did.

What I take away from this:

Never name your baby Kaylee. Unless you want something horrible to happen to her.


/it's a pretty vapid name anyway
//like Kyle, and Tucker

eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

I hope that new day includes people actually starting to read the farking article.

The parents are only 20, which isn't helping anything....

Parasitic_Spin: The parents are only 20, which isn't helping anything....

The mom is only 20. Dad is apparently 34.

The parents are only 20, which isn't helping anything....

FTA:

" [...] Kaylee's mom Crystal Vitelli, 20 [...] she said with Kaylee's dad, Jason Wallace, 34, at her side "

alternative girlfriend: She probably doesn't have long, and it's possible some overzealous doctor wanted to do something for another patient and made him/herself believe that the child would die soon. Doctors can convince themselves of a diagnosis (just watch House).

TV fiction dramas are not a valid source of evidence for real life.

CTaylor80: What I take away from this:

Never name your baby Kaylee. Unless you want something horrible to happen to her.

/it's a pretty vapid name anyway
//like Kyle, and Tucker

I have a theory that many girls end up named after their father's favourite stripper or porn star and the mother is clueless as to where the name came from or why it's a bad idea. Either that or the mother is fairly trashy and hopes her baby ends up with a good moneymakin' job that ain't too tough on the brains.

Personally, I'm getting tired of the Jaden/Aiden/Caden/whatever else rhymes thing along with the "let's name our little girl a last name, that'll be original" group.

I just don't understand. The parents are pissed because their daughter LIVED? I know they'd made the decision to give her heart to another child, but they've got that much more time to spend with their daughter. Has the hospital denied treatment that the baby deserved? What are the underlying circumstances hinted at in TFA? Maybe I need more info, but these parents just seem like they're looking for someone to take their (premature) grief out on. Maybe I'm just reading TFA differently than the rest of you guys.

Roland Deschain's Revolvers: Parasitic_Spin: The parents are only 20, which isn't helping anything....

The mom is only 20. Dad is apparently 34.

Burn him at the stake - he is obviously a pedophile!

Husband =34, wife =20. Sweet mother of mercy, this guy needs to write a book.

thereadlines: The way in which humans are "allowed to die" is much less humane than how animals are killed. Prime example: Terry Schiavo was starved to death over the period of a week, instead of being given a quick injection that would allow her to simply float away. Starving someone to death is horrible and absolutely inhumane, and delivering morphine to a patient for pain management in that situation is questionable because you have a limited ability to assess their actual level of pain.

tl;dr: you have no idea what you're talking about.

1) Your body turns off the hunger pains much quicker than you think. Read up on fasting or hunger strikes. "Suffering" starvation comes from being fed little bits that allow you to soldier on for weeks and months. If she'd been awake, the initial discomfort would have been easily managed for a day with minimal meds.

2) She didn't have a central nervous system capable of suffering. She "floated away" years ago.

What are the underlying circumstances hinted at in TFA? Maybe I need more info, but these parents just seem like they're looking for someone to take their (premature) grief out on.

That is a distinct possibility, reflected by the father's apparent growing paranoia -- note the mention of him whipping out a tape recorder and claiming he records all conversations at the hospital now.

This is also a potential reaction to being told different things at different times regarding the same subject by connected/the same people.

I honestly hope this really is just a pair of grieving parents losing their grip -- that can be handled with good therapy and compassion. If it turns out Sick Kids employees tried to hide important facts from the family and press, this is going to do serious harm to the hospital's reputation. It may even invite closer scrutiny of other incidents at the hospital, reported or otherwise.

This just in - sometimes doctors have to make tough decisions.

These guys have gone from media darlings to pariahs in the space of a week.

alternative girlfriend: You know, given the circumstances I'd be pretty pissed, too.

She probably doesn't have long, and it's possible some overzealous doctor wanted to do something for another patient and made him/herself believe that the child would die soon. Doctors can convince themselves of a diagnosis (just watch House).

I hope they don't sue, but I wouldn't blame them if they did.

in this thread, retards who think real medicine is practiced on tv medical dramas.

Doctors are often reluctant to even start guessing when a person will die, even in very serious conditions. It's understandable, but unfortunately I think that can sometimes lead to false hope.

Even in my father-in-law's case the Critical Care Attending didn't even want to guess how quickly he would pass away after turning off the ventilator and medicines, especially pressors.

It took only two hours.

Don't know what to think about this one, but sometimes the doctors best guess is the best guess. It's not like there is a manual of what can/will happen with a rare syndrome that was likely to knock the kid off soon anyhow.

I really feel bad for the pain the parents have to go through with this whole situation, but so far as I can see, it's just a tragic situation, and the doctors, being human, haven't known everything that is going to happen along the way.

Ral:

TV fiction dramas are not a valid source of evidence for real life.

HERETIC

finnished: Doctors are often reluctant to even start guessing when a person will die, even in very serious conditions. It's understandable, but unfortunately I think that can sometimes lead to false hope.

Even in my father-in-law's case the Critical Care Attending didn't even want to guess how quickly he would pass away after turning off the ventilator and medicines, especially pressors.

It took only two hours.

THIS, while lacking Alternative Girlfriend's extensive background in television medicine, I am a critical care nurse clinician. As a general rule, we don't pretend to know when someone will die. If you did, I would review the documentation of the deaths on the nights you worked and turn it over to law enforcement under the belief that you're a murderer, because thats the only way you would know for sure.

I am a critical care nurse clinician.

These replies. Are you getting a kick out of them?

/sorry. couldn't resist.

Longtime Lurker: Her parents named her Kaylee. She was never going to amount to anything anyway.

Oh ye of little faith... She could have grown up to be the engineer for a space ship called Serenity!

PlatinumDragon: I am a critical care nurse clinician.

These replies. Are you getting a kick out of them?

/sorry. couldn't resist.
No

I'm getting a kick out of these replies because I watch "Scrubs"!

finnished: Doctors are often reluctant to even start guessing when a person will die, even in very serious conditions. It's understandable, but unfortunately I think that can sometimes lead to false hope.

Even in my father-in-law's case the Critical Care Attending didn't even want to guess how quickly he would pass away after turning off the ventilator and medicines, especially pressors.

It took only two hours.

3...2...1...now!

hrm...

3...2...1....now!...now!...now?

irishdncr83: Longtime Lurker: Her parents named her Kaylee. She was never going to amount to anything anyway.

Oh ye of little faith... She could have grown up to be the engineer for a space ship called Serenity!

well, she died after a year.

iroll:
1) Your body turns off the hunger pains much quicker than you think. Read up on fasting or hunger strikes. "Suffering" starvation comes from being fed little bits that allow you to soldier on for weeks and months. If she'd been awake, the initial discomfort would have been easily managed for a day with minimal meds.

If I remember correctly, you are correct and what I said may have been misleading -- in the final stages, one doesn't feel hunger. My understanding is that one doesn't really feel well either, and I do believe it to be absolutely inhumane to deliberately starve someone to death. Even people that starve dogs (and not even to death) get arrested and thrown in jail for inhumane treatment, so I think that a lot of people share this perspective.

2) She didn't have a central nervous system capable of suffering. She "floated away" years ago.

You're pretending to know things that you don't know here, unless you want to claim that you have a complete understanding of the physiological bases of the perception of suffering. If you know anything about this matter, you would not be making such a claim. She was clearly orienting to persons and events, suggesting at least a midbrain that was somewhat intact.

I wasn't arguing the details of the Schiavo case, only pointing out that here was a human that was killed in an inhumane manner. I'm not arguing that she should have been kept alive, my perspective is that someone should have grabbed a syringe and killed her. I think that people would find that distasteful, but perhaps might see it as a better solution, and so I'm trying to provide them a way of implementing it (unfortunately with glaring typos).

So you should be in complete agreement with me. You think she was a complete vegetable, in which case you should have no trouble just killing her and saving everyone a lot of money in the process. In your case you don't need my moral perspective, you can just use economic standards.

eqtworld: Only in the USA, Europe and Canada don't have these problems.

/when Obama fixes health care in this country a new day will dawn

Successful post is too successful.

Only three farkers got it. Epic win. 10/10. would LOL again.

Whisky Tango. Mutant genes due to inbreading coupled with smoking and drinking cheap Rye while pregnant. And this gem of a quote from the mouth breather mom:

"There is some behind-the-scenes stuff going on that we found out recently, I'm not going to get into detail right now."

I'm sure there is, Crystal. Like people who made something of their lives trying to help your little taxburden.

I still like the babby farmed one.

Holden C: NEWSFLASH People: Doctors are not God (even if some act like they are).

Sometimes the most educated guesses are wrong. Sometimes people we think will die, don't. Sometimes people who we think won't die, do. Sometimes people just have bad, unexpected outcomes.

If there is gross negligence, then sue away, but this whole "anything unanticipated or bad = lawsuit" mentality helps no one but the trial lawyers.

THIS.

/M*A*S*H FTW!

"However, now when I look back on it, to be honest, I don't really believe what the doctors are saying and we know in our hearts that's she's a fighter."

God I hate when people say that. I realize a positive state of mind can actually help someone recover physiologically but if they're in a coma or a baby, they aren't fighting shiat. A fighter would have kick it's ass in the womb.


Quantum Apostrophe: Husband =34, wife =20. Sweet mother of mercy, this guy needs to write a book.

How to Make Friends and Influence People and Bang 20 Year Olds?
Milking Your Child's Illness for Fun and Profit?
Get 'em Young and Dumb?

Chapter 1: It helps if she's named Crystal.

FunkOut: CTaylor80: What I take away from this:

Never name your baby Kaylee. Unless you want something horrible to happen to her.

/it's a pretty vapid name anyway
//like Kyle, and Tucker

I have a theory that many girls end up named after their father's favourite stripper or porn star and the mother is clueless as to where the name came from or why it's a bad idea. Either that or the mother is fairly trashy and hopes her baby ends up with a good moneymakin' job that ain't too tough on the brains.

Personally, I'm getting tired of the Jaden/Aiden/Caden/whatever else rhymes thing along with the "let's name our little girl a last name, that'll be original" group.

Totally agree. My coworker's kids (2 and 1 yo) are named Aiden and Khayleih (pronounced Kaylee). Apparently the husband (who chose the girl's name) chose it because he wanted to name her the same as Eminem's daughter, but was vetoed and forced to change it a bit. When I heard about it, I barely stopped myself from making some sort of inappropriate farker remark about fulfilling cliches.

PlatinumDragon: What are the underlying circumstances hinted at in TFA? Maybe I need more info, but these parents just seem like they're looking for someone to take their (premature) grief out on.

That is a distinct possibility, reflected by the father's apparent growing paranoia -- note the mention of him whipping out a tape recorder and claiming he records all conversations at the hospital now.

This is also a potential reaction to being told different things at different times regarding the same subject by connected/the same people.

I honestly hope this really is just a pair of grieving parents losing their grip -- that can be handled with good therapy and compassion. If it turns out Sick Kids employees tried to hide important facts from the family and press, this is going to do serious harm to the hospital's reputation. It may even invite closer scrutiny of other incidents at the hospital, reported or otherwise.

Knowing large people in large groups with money in the mix...unfortunately this would be my guess. I get the feeling that the parents haven't exactly had "full disclosure" and that's why dad is taping everything now. Because stories they are getting don't add up.

Everything may be fine in the end. May just be some kind of misunderstanding, but given the clout large organizations have I don't blame him for doing what he is doing.

Also, from what I understand from the first article on fark they aren't exactly enjoying the "last few days". I mean, just waiting for a baby to die is pretty miserable. Especially when the delay they are facing is causing *another* baby to die. I can see why they are frustrated.