Ok, it's pretty cool that they did this, but the gap isn't quite the Mississippi.

Also, it's not so much "volunteer" as it is an investment in making sure their businesses run smoothly.

And after only eight days, all of the repairs were done, Pleas said. It was a shockingly quick fix to a problem that may have taken much longer if they waited for state money to funnel in.



Welcome to the Libertarian party guys!

Weaver95: Welcome to the Libertarian party guys!

I knew you were going to be here.

GAT_00: I knew you were going to be here.

I knew you were going to say that.

And if the bridge collapses on some poor bastard crossing it? Who's ass gets sued?

Weaver95: I knew you were going to say that.

Should I point out that this is more of socialism in practice than libertarianism? Pooling all of your community resources equally towards a goal that benefits everyone is socialism. Libertarianism doesn't really represent that, but rather an everyone for themselves philosophy, where it would make more sense that one person repairs it themselves, and after he does it, charges other people to use his work.

gopher321: And if the bridge collapses on some poor bastard crossing it? Who's ass gets sued?

cool yer jets.

FTA:

The business owners and residents are hopeful that their generous contributions in time and resources mean the park should officially open soon. Pleas says they have only to get the new bridge certified and do minor cleanup.

they'll have an engineer come out and make sure things are all up to code. that should make everyone happy.

Weaver95: gopher321: And if the bridge collapses on some poor bastard crossing it? Who's ass gets sued?

cool yer jets.



they'll have an engineer come out and make sure things are all up to code. that should make everyone happy.

Yes, fine. And 5 yrs down the road, the bridge collapses? Is the city signing anywhere stating they are taking responsibility? Sounds like legally they can pass the buck still.

GAT_00: Weaver95: I knew you were going to say that.

Should I point out that this is more of socialism in practice than libertarianism? Pooling all of your community resources equally towards a goal that benefits everyone is socialism. Libertarianism doesn't really represent that, but rather an everyone for themselves philosophy, where it would make more sense that one person repairs it themselves, and after he does it, charges other people to use his work.

Nope - the heart of libertarian philsophy is that you cannot trust government to get the job done. In this instance, local business owners saw that the state and federal government didn't care about a bridge being out that directly harmed their prospects for surviving the tourist season. So, local businesses pooled resources to fix a problem that government couldn't handle. And they'll benefit from it.

The sad part is that so will the state (in the form of various/sundry taxes).

Local businesses pooling together to solve problems for themselves and cutting government out of the loop. welcome to the libertarian party!

gopher321: Yes, fine. And 5 yrs down the road, the bridge collapses? Is the city signing anywhere stating they are taking responsibility? Sounds like legally they can pass the buck still.

If people like you ran NASA, we'd have never gotten to the moon.

Weaver95: Nope - the heart of libertarian philsophy is that you cannot trust government to get the job done. In this instance, local business owners saw that the state and federal government didn't care about a bridge being out that directly harmed their prospects for surviving the tourist season. So, local businesses pooled resources to fix a problem that government couldn't handle. And they'll benefit from it.

Which sounds exactly like what I said was socialism at work. So, socialism is the same as libertarianism? Wouldn't surprise me, both of them are Utopian ideals.

gopher321: And if the bridge collapses on some poor bastard crossing it? Who's ass gets sued?



I'm drowning! I can't swim!

Weaver95: gopher321: Yes, fine. And 5 yrs down the road, the bridge collapses? Is the city signing anywhere stating they are taking responsibility? Sounds like legally they can pass the buck still.

If people like you ran NASA, we'd have never gotten to the moon.

What I'm saying is self-interest is fine, co-operation is fine, but it doesn't pay to depend on the common sense and/or generosity of town hall beancounters.

But this is state land apparently. Maybe it doesn't matter.

GAT_00:
Which sounds exactly like what I said was socialism at work.

Only if you hit yourself in the head with a rubber mallet first.

gopher321: Yes, fine. And 5 yrs down the road, the bridge collapses? Is the city signing anywhere stating they are taking responsibility? Sounds like legally they can pass the buck still.

give it a rest, you're not going to win this one.

Weaver95: Only if you hit yourself in the head with a rubber mallet first.

My socialism: People see problem needs to be done, community pools resources, work is done.

Your libertarianism: People don't want to wait for government, community pools resources, work is done.

Same thing, different reasons. Libertarianism = Socialism.

SilentStrider: gopher321: Yes, fine. And 5 yrs down the road, the bridge collapses? Is the city signing anywhere stating they are taking responsibility? Sounds like legally they can pass the buck still.

give it a rest, you're not going to win this one.

Officially shutting up now :)

GAT_00:

From Wikipedia (for anyone who wants to say this isn't right):
"Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation"

So, how does people/businesses fixing a public road themselves equal state administration of goods and services? It seems like those are polar opposites.

I agree, it is much more Libertarianism: " a term used by a broad spectrum of political philosophies which seek to maximize individual liberty and minimize or abolish the state"

This story in a broader scope would be "Let private companies fix 'public' roads if they think they can get it done faster and cheaper".

Of course, this would probably lead to more KFC Potholes, but, it would be a price we pay for getting things done quicker?

/you don't want to live on 125 Whopper Ave.?

GAT_00: Weaver95: Only if you hit yourself in the head with a rubber mallet first.

My socialism: People see problem needs to be done, community pools resources, work is done.

Your libertarianism: People don't want to wait for government, community pools resources, work is done.

Same thing, different reasons. Libertarianism = Socialism.

Well, there is the problem.... your "socialism" isn't what Socialism really is.

dletter: Well, there is the problem.... your "socialism" isn't what Socialism really is.

GAT_00 knows that, but he's not going to admit it.

just enjoy the moment. i'm sure this thread will REALLY drive him nuts once it hits the main politics page.

dletter: So, how does people/businesses fixing a public road themselves equal state administration of goods and services? It seems like those are polar opposites.

I'd say that socialism is also characterized by "From each according to their abilities; to each according to their needs." Here we had a need and an ability..

Weaver95 2009-04-11 03:28:48 PM
And after only eight days, all of the repairs were done, Pleas said. It was a shockingly quick fix to a problem that may have taken much longer if they waited for state money to funnel in.



Welcome to the Libertarian party guys!

NS, Weaver, ns.

I'm to the right-of-center and view Libertarians as people with a lack of common sense - just not as bad as Leftist.

I found a test to determine your politcal stance and guess what? Supposedly I'm of the Libertarian persuasion.

Weaver95: just enjoy the moment. i'm sure this thread will REALLY drive him nuts once it hits the main politics page.

Why would this drive me nuts? There is nothing here to be driven crazy over, just opinions in the end that don't really matter.

GAT_00: dletter: So, how does people/businesses fixing a public road themselves equal state administration of goods and services? It seems like those are polar opposites.

I'd say that socialism is also characterized by "From each according to their abilities; to each according to their needs." Here we had a need and an ability..

well...no. here we had a bunch of businessmen who were going to go bankrupt if they relied on the state to get the job done. so they went out and fixed the bridge on their own so that they wouldn't go out of business. Their motivation was entirely profit driven, not out of any sense of community well being, although i'm sure they make noises about it so that the faux socalists won't get their feathers in a ruffle.

Why exactly are we arguing about WHAT this is, instead of just being happy THAT it is?

Although I wonder. This happened in Hawaii, what are the odds this would work in ANY other state in the union?

Weaver95: well...no. here we had a bunch of businessmen who were going to go bankrupt if they relied on the state to get the job done. so they went out and fixed the bridge on their own so that they wouldn't go out of business. Their motivation was entirely profit driven, not out of any sense of community well being, although i'm sure they make noises about it so that the faux socalists won't get their feathers in a ruffle.

You're still saying the same thing in different ways. Oh well, what does it matter, you're not going to budge at all. You keep on your little damn fool idealistic crusade, and keep refusing to admit that different points of view can have the same result.

GAT_00: Weaver95: just enjoy the moment. i'm sure this thread will REALLY drive him nuts once it hits the main politics page.

Why would this drive me nuts? There is nothing here to be driven crazy over, just opinions in the end that don't really matter.

i'm sure that's what you tell yourself.

As for my part, i'm rather concerned by stories like this one. When I read about incidents like this, it tells me that state and federal governments are either unable or unwilling to meet the needs of local businesses. that's a very bad sign.

Don't get me wrong - i'm ALL for locals doing things for themselves. But it's the job of state and federal government agencies to do this sort of work and to do it in a cost efficient and timely manner. If those agencies cannot do even a simply road/bridge repair job without massive overhead and bloated spending costs, to me that indicates a very widespread and systemic problem with those agencies, and the government itself.

GAT_00: You're still saying the same thing in different ways. Oh well, what does it matter, you're not going to budge at all. You keep on your little damn fool idealistic crusade, and keep refusing to admit that different points of view can have the same result.



You're going to find that a great many things in life greatly depend on our point of view.

Weaver95: You're going to find that a great many things in life greatly depend on our point of view.

Oh good, I was hoping you got the Obi-Wan reference. I love that line. And I am aware that lots of things depend on your point of view. I'm just arguing that the different points of view can have the same result.

GAT_00: Weaver95: You're going to find that a great many things in life greatly depend on our point of view.

Oh good, I was hoping you got the Obi-Wan reference. I love that line. And I am aware that lots of things depend on your point of view. I'm just arguing that the different points of view can have the same result.

That doesn't mean the two points of view are the same, though. You can take two different roads to end up at the same destination.

It doesn't surprise me at all that they dramatically cut down on the time and cost of repairs. Things like this are why I hate paying taxes. If the money was spent properly, I wouldn't have such a problem.

GAT_00: Weaver95: You're going to find that a great many things in life greatly depend on our point of view.

Oh good, I was hoping you got the Obi-Wan reference. I love that line. And I am aware that lots of things depend on your point of view. I'm just arguing that the different points of view can have the same result.

And i'm saying that intent counts for more than you give it credit.

Regardless, it's disturbing that the state and federal government couldn't find a solution to this problem. that sort of thing is cause for concern.

Weaver95: And after only eight days, all of the repairs were done, Pleas said. It was a shockingly quick fix to a problem that may have taken much longer if they waited for state money to funnel in.

Welcome to the Libertarian party guys!

Wouldn't the libertarian response for this to be for a private company to build and operate the bridge, charging for use? This seems more like communism to me, people donating according to their means to create a free bridge everyone can use.

cruci fiction: Weaver95: And after only eight days, all of the repairs were done, Pleas said. It was a shockingly quick fix to a problem that may have taken much longer if they waited for state money to funnel in.

Welcome to the Libertarian party guys!

Wouldn't the libertarian response for this to be for a private company to build and operate the bridge, charging for use? This seems more like communism to me, people donating according to their means to create a free bridge everyone can use.

umm...no.

But hey, if you want to misunderstand commun...er, socialism than that's fine. it'll make it easier to disguise libertarian principals and shift people away from government dependancies.

Dear GOD do I hope a lot of people think the way you do! it'd make a libertarian revolution so much easier!

cruci fiction: Wouldn't the libertarian response for this to be for a private company to build and operate the bridge, charging for use? This seems more like communism to me, people donating according to their means to create a free bridge everyone can use.

Yep.

Weaver95, care to explain how building a communal resource, to be used by the community, free of charge, is libertarianism?

I like libertarianism a lot. It doesn't really have anything to do with this situation. The libertarian response would be to say if the road, and the bridge, were private enterprise, the repair would have been more efficient-- which is probably true.

But that's not what happened.

The guy who organized the volunteers, Bruce Pleas, seems like he's very active in local politics. Cool guy, very sensible.


Link (new window) (PDF warning)

You know what would be a great phrase to describe Bruce?

Community organizer.

Here's his impressive, very detailed issues sheet for his run at mayor-- which it seems like he didn't win, more's the pity.

Link (new window)

Since his main issue is halting and severely restricting development, I'm not sure that 'libertarian' would fit him at all. I think he's that rarest and coolest of all political people, an actual pragmatist.

Obdicut: Weaver95, care to explain how building a communal resource, to be used by the community, free of charge, is libertarianism?.

nope.

Aw, this story just gets cooler and cooler. Emphasis added below:


State officials had estimated repairs for Polihale at $4 million, including restoration of the remotest area of the park damaged by a rock slide. The volunteer work doesn't include that area, which will remain closed.

Dozens of Kaua'i residents complained about Polihale being closed at a Feb. 13 informational meeting about the Recreational Renaissance proposal. They then pledged to put their backs into the repairs.

Pleas, who is helping to coordinate the volunteers, said donors have included Troy Martin of Martin Steel, Myron Lyndsey Construction, Carol Nielson of Bacon Universal Equipment, Nick Prieto Construction, Greg Holzman, Ron Agor Architects, Keith Suga with Goodfellow Brothers Inc., retired Goodfellow foreman Val Badua, retired contractor Tim McKenna and Ryan Ell of Rylo Excavation.

In addition to the volunteers, state parks workers lead by supervisor David Tsuchiya have been contributing, Pleas said. Local restaurants are chipping in meals for the volunteers.

Two nonprofit organizations - Surfrider Foundation and E Ola Mau Na Leo O Kekaha - have set up funds to collect money to help maintain the access road, and thousands of dollars have already been donated, Pleas said.

What a nicely inspiring story.

Weaver95: nope.

Didn't think so.

This is an awesome story about a local group of people working with the government, and forcing the government, through coming together as a community. Private enterprise, social groups, community organizers, and the government working in harmony to fix a problem-- at no small cost to themselves.

It's an awesome story that doesn't have a political ideology, beyond that we can accomplish much more by recognizing our own mutual interests and working together to accomplish goals that we couldn't, as individual entities, individual companies, or a government agency, on our own.


Anyone know if there are laws against out-of-state people contributing to local campaigns in Hawaii? I would seriously donate a bunch of money to Bruce Peals for his next campaign for anything at all.

Obdicut: Weaver95: nope.

Didn't think so.

you never listen anyway. Figured I'd just cut to the chase and spare us all the endless merry go round.

That said, i'm hoping we see more efforts like this. the more businesses that realize government isn't there to help them, the more they'll come to accept the libertarian platform.

Weaver95: you never listen anyway. Figured I'd just cut to the chase and spare us all the endless merry go round.

That's mighty kind of you, then.

Hey look, I think this is a questionairre filled out by Peals when he was running for mayor:

Link (new window)


A lot of the stuff is just about the working of government itself, but there's some more heavily pragmatic stuff there-- he's in favor of a lot of transparency for government, removing redundancy where it does not good, and deficit spending to fix infrastructure (though I guess that last one was pretty much a given.)

cruci fiction: seems more like communism to me, people donating according to their means

In communism, and socialism as they've been practiced to date, it's not a matter of donation but of confiscation.

Weaver95: That said, i'm hoping we see more efforts like this. the more businesses that realize government isn't there to help them, the more they'll come to accept the libertarian platform.

Except for the government workers who helped, you mean, right? And the guy David Tsuchiya, who's part of the government, who was one of the volunteers?

Weaver95: gopher321: And if the bridge collapses on some poor bastard crossing it? Who's ass gets sued?

cool yer jets.

FTA:

The business owners and residents are hopeful that their generous contributions in time and resources mean the park should officially open soon. Pleas says they have only to get the new bridge certified and do minor cleanup.

they'll have an engineer come out and make sure things are all up to code. that should make everyone happy.

Yeah, sure a professional engineer is going to sign off on that. The engineer has to be involved with the plans, specifiying what materials are to be used and specific tolerances allowed.

Sure it is not a four million dollar bridge, my driveway is longer, but it can't be easily approved. They should have pushed the regulatory agency to allow them to contract it out if they felt they could do it better.

However they did it with volunteer labor so skilled tradesmen were not used, they did it with donated materials, so it could be crap that could not be sold so there is no guarantee that it is structurally sound.

Of course it most probably is, but there is no way to hold anyone responsible if it is not.

Obdicut: Except for the government workers who helped, you mean, right? And the guy David Tsuchiya, who's part of the government, who was one of the volunteers?

This isn't a matter of an ideology prevailing but of local government, business and community beating the snot out of State & Federal governments. More of this, less of that.

feckingmorons: However they did it with volunteer labor so skilled tradesmen were not used, they did it with donated materials, so it could be crap that could not be sold so there is no guarantee that it is structurally sound.

Read the story. Many of the volunteers were contractors and heavy equipment guys. They're not just a bunch of dudes.

It's not a four million dollar bridge because the four million involved fixing a rock slide, too, which they didn't do. This is a bridge these guys drive over, and have their customers drive over; they have the expertise and the equipment to build it well, and I'll bet that they did.

I bet Bruce wins next time he runs for councilman there-- which he has in the past.

Obdicut: Except for the government workers who helped, you mean, right? And the guy David Tsuchiya, who's part of the government, who was one of the volunteers?

this is driving you nuts, isn't it?

flucto: This isn't a matter of an ideology prevailing but of local government, business and community beating the snot out of State & Federal governments. More of this, less of that.

Except the state workers were there working right along side them, so, no, not so much.

It's not a story about anyone beating the snot out of anyone else; it's about a community coming together, from every level, to address a mutual problem. Nobody gets beat; everyone wins. This is how shiat is supposed to be, rather than everyone sniping at each other.

Obdicut: flucto: This isn't a matter of an ideology prevailing but of local government, business and community beating the snot out of State & Federal governments. More of this, less of that.

Except the state workers were there working right along side them, so, no, not so much.

It's not a story about anyone beating the snot out of anyone else; it's about a community coming together, from every level, to address a mutual problem. Nobody gets beat; everyone wins. This is how shiat is supposed to be, rather than everyone sniping at each other.

you sound so very, very desperate.....

I think this is wonderful by the way.

Subby? It's not just the bridge that needed fixing and the state said would take a few million to fix.

Weaver95: this is driving you nuts, isn't it?

Yeah, that's why I'm talking about how much I love it.

Hell, this is similar (though we are in no way as cool) as the playground restoration project we've got going on here in the Western Addition.

We've got a volunteer thing going where we're fixing up the playgrounds to at least make them less lethal; we've got churches, the city, our neighborhood association, local businesses, schools, softball leagues, etc. etc. all helping out with time, equipment, and money. It's slow going, but we're making progress.

It's pragmatism; better than any ideology.