good.

promotion of one group of people over another on the basis of what those people inherantly are is stupid, even if the stated intention is to force an equality of outcome.

reference "gay marraige debate"

It's time that the government becomes color/sexual orientation blind. Welcome to the 21st Century.

WorldCitizen: It's time that the government becomes color/sexual orientation blind. Welcome to the 21st Century.

the NAACP doesn't WANT the world to become color blind. then they'd be out of a job.

Weaver95: WorldCitizen: It's time that the government becomes color/sexual orientation blind. Welcome to the 21st Century.

the NAACP doesn't WANT the world to become color blind. then they'd be out of a job.

Boy howdy ;)

Weaver95: WorldCitizen: It's time that the government becomes color/sexual orientation blind. Welcome to the 21st Century.

the NAACP doesn't WANT the world to become color blind. then they'd be out of a job.

I love when I'm applying for a job and they ask me to state my ethnicity so they can comply with equal-opportunity legislation requiring them to not hire people based on race, so that they can hire based on your race to comply with the legislation.

This should be good...
/grabs popcorn

Also, Weaver95, your point can be summed up in the words of Weird Al:

"Luke, I know Darth Vader's really got you annoyed but remember if you kill him then you'll be unemployed said my Yoda. Yo ho ho ho Yoda."

El Chode: I love when I'm applying for a job and they ask me to state my ethnicity so they can comply with equal-opportunity legislation requiring them to not hire people based on race, so that they can hire based on your race to comply with the legislation.

newsletter. now.

radiumsoup: good.

promotion of one group of people over another on the basis of what those people inherantly are is stupid, even if the stated intention is to force an equality of outcome.

reference "gay marraige debate"

What on earth does gay marriage have to do with affirmative action? I'm genuinely curious how you link the two.

SusanIvanova: What on earth does gay marriage have to do with affirmative action?

nothing. I meant to bring to comparison the popular argument that A.) minority people should not be denied special opportunity to obtain an uneven outcome for hiring/schooling/whatever, on the basis that they were born a minority vs. B.) the popular argument that straight people should not be given special rights versus gay people because gay people are born gay and straight people are born straight.

I hope the Supreme Court rules in favor of the firemen. Despite how necessary the laws are to prevent discrimination, they should not be used in such a way that it prevents whites from getting a fair share because a minority didn't.

You know that it's illegal for an employer to delve into your ethnicity, right? Which is why I ALWAYS check the "african-american of mexican descent" box on all "official" paperwork.

With this case we are running into a problem of small statistical samples. A single test in which none of the 15 highest scorers were black does not indicate a racially exclusionary practice through the use of the test. If after a period of years the number of black applicants scoring above a certain threshold vs those scoring lower is less than the ratio of black applicants vs other applicants then there might be a case for the test being racially exclusionary (as was discovered with the SATs a couple decades ago).

The post office has been using civil service tests for years for hiring and promotions, and there have been few issues of racial exclusion through the use of those tests, because the much larger sample size of applicants has shown the racial ratio of people passing to be similar to the racial ratios of people taking it.

There is no reason to change the law, just define it that a statistically significant example of racial exclusion must be shown before a racial discrimination case is proven.

SpinStopper 2009-04-10 12:41:31 PM
Weaver95: WorldCitizen: It's time that the government becomes color/sexual orientation blind. Welcome to the 21st Century.

the NAACP doesn't WANT the world to become color blind. then they'd be out of a job.

Boy howdy ;)

ahhh YUP!

radiumsoup: SusanIvanova: What on earth does gay marriage have to do with affirmative action?

nothing. I meant to bring to comparison the popular argument that A.) minority people should not be denied special opportunity to obtain an uneven outcome for hiring/schooling/whatever, on the basis that they were born a minority vs. B.) the popular argument that straight people should not be given special rights versus gay people because gay people are born gay and straight people are born straight.

So what you're saying is:

Racial minorities:special opportunities::straight people:marriage

Hence, if you do not support race-specific opportunities (such as affirmative action), you should also not support sexual-orientation-specific opportunities (such as straight-only marriage).

At least I think that's what you're saying because your initial post and the following were somewhat confusing.

Code_Archeologist: ith this case we are running into a problem of small statistical samples. A single test in which none of the 15 highest scorers were black does not indicate a racially exclusionary practice through the use of the test. If after a period of years the number of black applicants scoring above a certain threshold vs those scoring lower is less than the ratio of black applicants vs other applicants then there might be a case for the test being racially exclusionary (as was discovered with the SATs a couple decades ago).

The gaping hole in your argument is that most people go to law school because they fail at math. Judges at one point went to law school. Therefore, Judges can't do math.

"But the president of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund said the claim ignored the history of discrimination that excluded blacks from fire and police departments."

Well I guess we should just spend all the time we have in the present trying to make amends for the injustices of the past. That is certainly a productive use of resources. Maybe we could start with the Greeks and Romans, those *$&%^##$% have a metric ton of stuff to own up to.

Stop living in the past NAACP....your petty quotas are as asinine as the crotchety old vets who can't get over the 'Japs' or 'Krauts' selling cars here now.

FYI...bad things have always happened and part of life is moving on. Try taking a lesson from the ADF, they spend time actually pursuing acts of antisemitism rather than trying to get a Jewish quota at some fire department or claiming that Jews score poorly on the SAT because keeping Kosher affects their brain chemistry.

Code-Archeologist: You know, if you're going to make sensible and reasoned remarks, we ain't never going to get this thread to flame up. Stop being thoughtful.

Instant Karma: FYI...bad things have always happened and part of life is moving on. Try taking a lesson from the ADF, they spend time actually pursuing acts of antisemitism rather than trying to get a Jewish quota at some fire department or claiming that Jews score poorly on the SAT because keeping Kosher affects their brain chemistry.

Black people don't control the world like the Jews do.

At issue in the New Haven case is whether an employer can weigh the racial effect of a hiring or promotional standard.

Or, put differently, what appears to be at issue is whether the concept of "diversity" will continue to remain a compelling governmental interest that is significant enough to pass strict scrutiny analysis

GAT_00: I hope the Supreme Court rules in favor of the firemen. Despite how necessary the laws are to prevent discrimination, they should not be used in such a way that it prevents whites from getting a fair share because a minority didn't.

Yep. I hear the argument of the NCAAP, but it's found wanting; it's the equivalent of saying Yale should accept a black kid who scored poorly in order to make up for the lack of education the kid received earlier in life. It distracts, really, from the true problem; the poor education the kid received earlier in life.

That said, 'real' affirmative action simply states that when you have two candidates of equal merit, the promotion/hire/place at the college/whatever should go to the more disadvantaged. I think the calculus of 'disadvantaged' should be much less race-based, but it does not mean that a less-qualified minority is supposed to be accepted.


The real place to bring a lawsuit, therefore, even accepting the NAACPs argument, would be at any point they could actually show discrimination, rather than merit-based testing. Which would probably be in hiring practices, or even earlier.

So much of it goes back to the differences in education when young.

5-4 decision. Kennedy's the swing vote. My bet is that he sides with the group saying race isn't a suspect class, and further, that dicta in the case will say that a history of invidious discrimination is no longer a factor, because, after all, we has a black President.

/book it, done.

Theaetetus: 5-4 decision. Kennedy's the swing vote. My bet is that he sides with the group saying race isn't a suspect class, and further, that dicta in the case will say that a history of invidious discrimination is no longer a factor, because, after all, we has a black President.

/book it, done.

Isn't Kennedy the one rumored to be leaving soon?

We have to give minorities a shot. I mean, just imagine, some day we'll have a Hispanic Attorney General, or a black female Secretary of State, or maybe a black Attorney General, and though it seems strange, even a black Supreme Court Justice. Dare I be so bold as to say a black President some day?

Just imagine.

/Fark Affirmative Action. Merit-based hiring.
//And college enrollment

El Chode: Black people don't control the world like the Jews do.



Zombie Sammy would like a word with you

Instant Karma: El Chode: Black people don't control the world like the Jews do.



Zombie Sammy would like a word with you

Damn, I just got told.

Wigga and cracker are terms of endearment.

Talon: So what you're saying is:

Racial minorities:special opportunities::straight people:marriage

not exactly - I mean that there are two popular arguments right now:
A.) it's ok for racial minorities to get special treatment for the way they were born
B.) it's not ok for straight people to get special treatment for the way they were born

One can't justifiably hold both opinions simultaneously.

Hence, if you do not support race-specific opportunities (such as affirmative action), you should also not support sexual-orientation-specific opportunities (such as straight-only marriage).

more or less, yeah - I meant it the other way around (one should not support affirmative action if they support gay marriage), but both apply.

At least I think that's what you're saying because your initial post and the following were somewhat confusing.

Sorry, I missed breakfast.

Obdicut: It distracts, really, from the true problem; the poor education the kid received earlier in life.

Exactly. We could stop worrying about a fair bit of stuff like this if we could see to it that everyone had, at least, a good K-12 education available to them. Increase education funding significantly, and make sure the worst schools get the most money. That should only take, what 1/200th of the military budget? Then the issue will only be to see that workplaces don't intentionally exclude one group of people over another.

If we can all agree that racism still exists AND that affrimative action sucks, can someone please devise a better system to end discrimination in the work place?

/ I know I don't have one.

GAT_00: and make sure the worst schools get the most money

money makes people learn, not their attitude towards a good education!

/end threadjack.

El Chode: Isn't Kennedy the one rumored to be leaving soon?

I figured Stevens would go first. He's a billion years old and has a first-hand memory of the signing of the Constitution.

/almost

radiumsoup: not exactly - I mean that there are two popular arguments right now:
A.) it's ok for racial minorities to get special treatment for the way they were born
B.) it's not ok for straight people to get special treatment for the way they were born

One can't justifiably hold both opinions simultaneously.

A.) it's okay for a minority to get special treatment for the way they were born, that minority status based on race.
B.) it's not okay for a majority to get special treatment for the way they were born, that majority status based on sexual preference.

I don't see the issue. Or are you really suggesting that straight people are a minority?

Instant Karma: "But the president of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund said the claim ignored the history of discrimination that excluded blacks from fire and police departments."

Well I guess we should just spend all the time we have in the present trying to make amends for the injustices of the past. That is certainly a productive use of resources. Maybe we could start with the Greeks and Romans, those *$&%^##$% have a metric ton of stuff to own up to.

Stop living in the past NAACP....your petty quotas are as asinine as the crotchety old vets who can't get over the 'Japs' or 'Krauts' selling cars here now.

FYI...bad things have always happened and part of life is moving on. Try taking a lesson from the ADF, they spend time actually pursuing acts of antisemitism rather than trying to get a Jewish quota at some fire department or claiming that Jews score poorly on the SAT because keeping Kosher affects their brain chemistry.

I'm still pissed about the potato famine!

Theaetetus: El Chode: Isn't Kennedy the one rumored to be leaving soon?

I figured Stevens would go first. He's a billion years old and has a first-hand memory of the signing of the Constitution.

/almost

Ginsburg is also likely to die soon. Very sad.

filth: Ginsburg is also likely to die soon. Very sad.

She's the one who said someone is leaving soon that isn't her.

GAT_00: Exactly. We could stop worrying about a fair bit of stuff like this if we could see to it that everyone had, at least, a good K-12 education available to them. Increase education funding significantly, and make sure the worst schools get the most money. That should only take, what 1/200th of the military budget? Then the issue will only be to see that workplaces don't intentionally exclude one group of people over another.

We need to change our curriculum and fire shiatloads of administrators, too. I actually think that education is funded enough, we're just blowing lots and lots of money on administrators who just suck the life out of teachers.

The data is out there; we know how to make effective schools for disadvantaged kids. We need to do it. And we need to start handling juvenile offenses in an entirely different way too; the education most kids are getting in that regard is a dangerous one.


Race is a silly thing, anyway. I'm technically Hispanic, but to claim it at any point would be, to me, a lie.

filth: Ginsburg is also likely to die soon. Very sad.

Yep, Ginsburg and Stephens are out of there during Obama's term, it's almost a lock. Obama will appoint two younger liberals to take their place.

El Chode: money makes people learn, not their attitude towards a good education!

/end threadjack.

That attitude has to start early on. This isn't going to be fixed in one year, it will take impressing the attitude that education is a good thing from Kindergarten on up. Then you need to see to it that those students have a good school to go to, not the near-wrecks of inner city schools.

El Chode: filth: Ginsburg is also likely to die soon. Very sad.

She's the one who said someone is leaving soon that isn't her.

Yeah, I saw that, but she may not get to choose to stay.

Trajan's Call'Em: If we can all agree that racism still exists AND that affrimative action sucks, can someone please devise a better system to end discrimination in the work place?

/ I know I don't have one.

If someone less deserving is given and advantage over you based on something arbitrary, it breeds resentment regardless of what color anyone in the story is, and that perpetuates the underlying problem - viewing things in terms of arbitrary physical traits. I don't consider that a solution at all.

KaponoFor3: filth: Ginsburg is also likely to die soon. Very sad.

Yep, Ginsburg and Stephens are out of there during Obama's term, it's almost a lock. Obama will appoint two younger liberals to take their place.

Yeah. Won't change the make-up of the court now. But some younger justices may change things - Kennedy is 72 and Scalia is 73, so packing the court with some young liberal judges could cause a swing depending on who's President when those guys kick off.

radiumsoup: good.

promotion of one group of people over another on the basis of what those people inherantly are is stupid, even if the stated intention is to force an equality of outcome.

reference "gay marraige debate"

Agreed. Everyone should be able to marry anyone.

GAT_00: That attitude has to start early on. This isn't going to be fixed in one year, it will take impressing the attitude that education is a good thing from Kindergarten on up. Then you need to see to it that those students have a good school to go to, not the near-wrecks of inner city schools.

Patience is the best solution to that issue and the one at hand here. I've just seen it here in NJ where money gets funneled into Newark to no result while the suburban schools get rid of tiered education that forces the advanced students to take the same level english as the remedial students due to a lack of funding. That helps no one.

Still, when I played sports against Newark teams, I was amazed at how the schools looked like prisons with bars on the windows.

wrytrzcrmp: You know that it's illegal for an employer to delve into your ethnicity, right? Which is why I ALWAYS check the "african-american of mexican descent" box on all "official" paperwork.

I alway write in "mutt".

Theaetetus: Yeah. Won't change the make-up of the court now. But some younger justices may change things - Kennedy is 72 and Scalia is 73, so packing the court with some young liberal judges could cause a swing depending on who's President when those guys kick off.

I always forget Scalia is so old, but then it also explains so much.

gustakooka: Agreed. Everyone should be able to marry anyone.

If you ask me, the only restriction should be in regards to incest to avoid inbreeding. That provides a legitimate ends for such a legislation.

El Chode: I feel obliged to point out that none of this matters in the long run because left handed people are the true superior race, and we will always come out on top even if you try to kill us by making us use backwards scissors.

So does torque work the same for left-handed people the same way it does for right-handed ones?


/they call it the Right Hand Rule for a reason, ya know.

El Chode: Theaetetus: Yeah. Won't change the make-up of the court now. But some younger justices may change things - Kennedy is 72 and Scalia is 73, so packing the court with some young liberal judges could cause a swing depending on who's President when those guys kick off.

I always forget Scalia is so old, but then it also explains so much.

gustakooka: Agreed. Everyone should be able to marry anyone.

If you ask me, the only restriction should be in regards to incest to avoid inbreeding. That provides a legitimate ends for such a legislation.

What if they are both sterile and choose to adopt?

/I can get my own stepladder thank-you.

El Chode: I feel obliged to point out that none of this matters in the long run because left handed people are the true superior race, and we will always come out on top even if you try to kill us by making us use backwards scissors.

Word