Exhibit A:

Article VI

...
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
...


Exhibit B:

Treaty of Tripoli

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Can you imagine the Saudi king coming to America and bragging that his nation is not Muslim?

No, because Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy.

Or wait, is David Limbaugh trying to tell us we should better emulate bastions of freedom such as Saudi Arabia? I'm confused.

PC LOAD LETTER: Exhibit A:

Article VI

...
This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.
...


Exhibit B:

Treaty of Tripoli

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

adding: the treaty of tripoli was ratified unanimously by the US senate and signed into law by founding father (and devout christian) john adams.

PC LOAD LETTER:

Pfft. Facts. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true. Facts, schmacts.

Action Replay Nick: is David Limbaugh trying to tell us we should better emulate bastions of freedom such as Saudi Arabia? I'm confused.

well, the right wing does love religious authoritarianism and hates women, so, yes probably.

watch christopher hitchens demolish religiowingnut and all around rube ken blackwell on the subject. (new window)

But if we are talking about the ideals that led to the very colonization of this land, our declaration of independence from Britain, and the formulation of our Constitution, then the answer is certainly "yes."

Haha, he's wrong on all 3 counts. In fact he's probably wrong on a lot more, but I stopped reading there.

"...our declaration of independence from Britain, and the formulation of our Constitution..."

Sorry, this is revisionism

.

It is very revealing that these people are so insecure in their beliefs that they need the endorsement and authority of the government to validate and defend the same. I bet these are the same people who love to scream "nanny state" and shake their fists at big government.

FlashHarry: Action Replay Nick: is David Limbaugh trying to tell us we should better emulate bastions of freedom such as Saudi Arabia? I'm confused.

well, the right wing does love religious authoritarianism and hates women, so, yes probably.

watch christopher hitchens demolish religiowingnut and all around rube ken blackwell on the subject. (new window)

That was an epic beatdown and sadly, no staunch Christian will recognize it as such. I love how Blackwell closes with "b...b...b...but Christians are being persecuted!" Christians LOVE...LOOOOOOOVE to feel persecuted. They f*cking live for it.

/former Assemblies of God youth pastor

kronicfeld: It is very revealing that these people are so insecure in their beliefs that they need the endorsement and authority of the government to validate and defend the same. I bet these are the same people who love to scream "nanny state" and shake their fists at big government.

STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!!!

/oblig

Can you imagine the Saudi king coming to America and bragging that his nation is not Muslim? I assure you that he's not ashamed of the Islamic character of his nation, even though his nation is demonstrably less tolerant of other religions.

What distinguishes us from pretty much every other country on the planet is that we are not bound together by common origins - national, cultural, or religious. We are bound by common ideals, as embodied in the Constitution. While I believe that's something to be proud of and I appreciate that uniqueness, Christians like Limbaugh believe it's a bad thing.

I am not ashamed of our uniqueness. I'm ashamed of dickheads like Limbaugh.

Holy carp, I agree with Obama on something.

Subby: Thanks for including the modifier Right-wing to the term 'Christians' in the headline. Narrowing the brush a bit is a rare class act in these parts.

FlashHarry: adding: the treaty of tripoli was ratified unanimously by the US senate and signed into law by founding father (and devout christian) john adams.

That treaty lasted all of 5 years and was broken by the Barbary states. Also John Adams strikes me more of a "it keeps the masses in line, but I don't really buy into most of it" Christian- more Machiavellian than devout.

Thomas Jefferson: "He's right you idiots, why are you whining?"

dj_bigbird: Holy carp, I agree with Obama on something.

Fish with Halo?

This thread was over in 1, but there's bound to still be a massive flame war about it anyway.

GoDawgs!: That treaty lasted all of 5 years and was broken by the Barbary states.

the treaty was broken by the barbary states.... so it wasn't ratified unanimously by the senate and signed into law by john adams?

i'm not sure how the fact that the treaty was broken five years later by the other signatory has anything to do with its obvious statement that the US is not officially christian.

GoDawgs!: Also John Adams strikes me more of a "it keeps the masses in line, but I don't really buy into most of it" Christian- more Machiavellian than devout.

you may be right about adams. he was a unitarian with deist tendencies (like several of the founding fathers), but he did say, "The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity." so he certainly couldn't be categorized as anti-christian.

Freedom of religion means freedom from religion too. You Muslim dominated societies could learn a bit from that part...however, I can't say I completely disagree with the idea of women as chattel.

FlashHarry: i'm not sure how the fact that the treaty was broken five years later by the other signatory has anything to do with its obvious statement that the US is not officially christian.

Yes, you're right. A treaty that was idiotically ratified unanimously over 200 years ago means that we are not a Christian nation. Hooray for atheism. Maybe you should use this argument to get every mention of God taken out of anything having to do with the government- money, pledge, etc. As mentioned before, it's in a treaty so it's the supreme law of the land, right?

I honestly don't care, but do enjoy how the right wing christians and the left wing atheists love to play the waaaaah card.

GoDawgs!: Maybe you should use this argument to get every mention of God taken out of anything having to do with the government- money, pledge, etc. As mentioned before, it's in a treaty so it's the supreme law of the land, right?

You beat up that straw man. You beat it up good and hard.

GoDawgs!: Yes, you're right. A treaty that was idiotically ratified unanimously over 200 years ago means that we are not a Christian nation. Hooray for atheism. Maybe you should use this argument to get every mention of God taken out of anything having to do with the government- money, pledge, etc. As mentioned before, it's in a treaty so it's the supreme law of the land, right?

awww... struck a nerve?

listen, nobody's talking about atheism here, pal. we're simply agreeing with the founding fathers that the US is not officially a christian nation.

and, yes, a treaty is, by definition, the law of the land.

GoDawgs!: Maybe you should use this argument to get every mention of God taken out of anything having to do with the government- money, pledge, etc.

All that god crap wasn't in there to begin with, so I fail to see the harm in removing it.

I like the idea of removing god from money. In fact, I came up with a replacement:

And yet to be elected, Obama had to swear he was a Christian and disprove 'attacks' that he was a Muslim.

So maybe it should be put to a referendum? "Is the US a Christian nation?" I hear that's the only way you should actually be deciding anything these days. The constitution and law code are unimportant when it comes to 'what the people want'.

Action Replay Nick: GoDawgs!: Maybe you should use this argument to get every mention of God taken out of anything having to do with the government- money, pledge, etc.

All that god crap wasn't in there to begin with, so I fail to see the harm in removing it.

and the "pledge" is the worst offender. the words "under god" were added in the 1950s by right-wing fear mongers.

Christian here: We are NOT a Christian nation. Suck it, Bible-thumpers.

FlashHarry: listen, nobody's talking about atheism here, pal. we're simply agreeing with the founding fathers that the US is not officially a christian nation.

and, yes, a treaty is, by definition, the law of the land.

I agree that we're not a Christian nation. Another quote from the Treaty of Barbary is "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." I think ratifying the treaty was stupid doing it unanimously was pathetic. It was pandering to a group of thugs who were barely under the control of the Ottoman Empire. It's as if they felt the need to qualify "hey, we're secular and not a threat to you mooslim's plans for worldwide domination". Jefferson had it right when he told them to f*ck off with their demands for bribes and sent the marines over to end the piracy.

jekxrb: And yet to be elected, Obama had to swear he was a Christian and disprove 'attacks' that he was a Muslim.

The fundies STILL think he's a Muslim who isn't even a US citizen. What does Obama's religion have to do with us not being a Christian nation?

brigid_fitch: Christian here: We are NOT a Christian nation. Suck it, Bible-thumpers.

Agreed. We are not a Christian nation, but we are a nation with a majority of Christians.

* Christian: (78.5%)
o Protestant (51.3%)
o Roman Catholic (23.9%)
o Mormon (1.7%)
o other Christian (1.6%)
* unaffiliated (12.1%)
* none (4%)
* other or unspecified (2.5%)
* Jewish (1.7%)
* Buddhist (0.7%)
* Muslim (0.6%)

Though I can see how with that amount of people identifying themselves as some flavor of Christian we get labeled as a Christian nation.

jekxrb: The constitution and law code are unimportant when it comes to 'what the people want'.

Depends on the issue, really Mr. Lincoln said in 1863 (and it SHOULD be just as true today) "and that government : of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." AND let's try to remember the phrase "We the people of the United States."

The Constitution is a secular document by design. Period, book it, done, FACT.

There's really no debate here, Christians. I know you're used to having to spin and interpret YOUR favorite texts to a ridiculous degree in a desperate attempt to illustrate that they're still somehow relevant, but that's not necessary in this case. The first Amendment states that we're secular, the Tripoli treaty further clarifies/ratifies it, and just like in countless other areas, you're provably wrong, wrong, wrong. Not that being so obviously, laughably incorrect about something has ever stopped you believing it before.

But you should feel free to go ahead and cling to the fading scraps of your obsolete belief system, even as science, philosophy and the snowballing secular progressive movement render it exponentially more ludicrous every day. The rest of us will just keep looking forward, thanks.

GoDawgs!: A treaty that was idiotically ratified unanimously over 200 years ago means that we are not a Christian nation.

When that treaty says that "the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion," and was signed into law by one of the (Christian) gentlemen who helped found this nation, I'd say it absolutely means that we're not a Christian nation. Besides, the argument is whether or not this country was founded on Christianity. Nobody said anything about Atheism. Address the argument instead of pounding straw.

GoDawgs!: Agreed. We are not a Christian nation, but we are a nation with a majority of Christians.

No one is disputing that. What is being stated, reaffirmed, and reminded is that we are a nation without a national religion. It is illegal for this nation to elevate any religion in preference of another. Thus, we are not a "Christian" nation.

The First Amendment is your friend God People, you guys should really learn that. Some of you would be hauled off in trucks for your weird ideas without it.

/Seriously, Snake Handling, Magic Underwear, 100,000 people getting into Heaven...yeah, you should really be loving the 1st

GoDawgs!: Agreed. We are not a Christian nation, but we are a nation with a majority of Christians.

Yes, the old "We're in the majority, enjoy your oppression" argument.

GoDawgs!: FlashHarry: listen, nobody's talking about atheism here, pal. we're simply agreeing with the founding fathers that the US is not officially a christian nation.

and, yes, a treaty is, by definition, the law of the land.

I agree that we're not a Christian nation. Another quote from the Treaty of Barbary is "The United States is not a Christian nation any more than it is a Jewish or a Mohammedan nation." I think ratifying the treaty was stupid doing it unanimously was pathetic. It was pandering to a group of thugs who were barely under the control of the Ottoman Empire. It's as if they felt the need to qualify "hey, we're secular and not a threat to you mooslim's plans for worldwide domination". Jefferson had it right when he told them to f*ck off with their demands for bribes and sent the marines over to end the piracy.

then... it sounds like we agree. the treaty itself is immaterial (and you're probably right about its "pandering" to crooks. what is important today is that it gives us a glimpse of how the founders treated religion in government.

GoDawgs!: Though I can see how with that amount of people identifying themselves as some flavor of Christian we get labeled as a Christian nation.

Very true. But the distinction is an important one. Simply because a majority of Americans are Christian does not make us a "Christian nation". To declare us as such would marginalize everyone who isn't a Christian.

MaxxLarge: The Constitution is a secular document by design. Period, book it, done, FACT.

There's really no debate here, Christians. I know you're used to having to spin and interpret YOUR favorite texts to a ridiculous degree in a desperate attempt to illustrate that they're still somehow relevant, but that's not necessary in this case. The first Amendment states that we're secular, the Tripoli treaty further clarifies/ratifies it, and just like in countless other areas, you're provably wrong, wrong, wrong. Not that being so obviously, laughably incorrect about something has ever stopped you believing it before.

But you should feel free to go ahead and cling to the fading scraps of your obsolete belief system, even as science, philosophy and the snowballing secular progressive movement render it exponentially more ludicrous every day. The rest of us will just keep looking forward, thanks.

"We've secretly replaced MaxxLarge's decaf with regular coffee. Let's see if he notices."

/Please keep in mind that there's a big, GAPING difference between "Christians" and "Right-wing fundie nutjobs." Thank you.

PC LOAD LETTER: Exhibit A:

Stop channeling RON PAUL and start being oppressed like a good christian.

GoDawgs!: but we are a nation with a majority of Christians.

True, but these things change. Imagine if Islam was in threat of becoming the majority. You better believe the Christians would care about separation of Church and State all of a sudden.

Where is "God" in the Constitution?

The mistake modern secularists make is obvious. They take a twentieth century concept like "secularism" and read it back into the Constitution. They take a concept that didn't even exist in the eighteenth century and attribute it to the framers of the Constitution. Unfortunately, this is a very common mistake. The fact that the word "God" does not appear in the Constitution means little. It is actually a rather shallow observation. The reality is "God" is in every word of the Constitution, including the punctuation. Below the surface of the words in the Constitution, there are a mountain of ideas that made its formation possible. The belief that God exists and that all nations of the world are subject to Him sits on the summit of that mountain. As the Supreme Court of Florida said in 1950: "Different species of democracy have existed for more than 2,000 years, but democracy as we know it has never existed among the unchurched. A people unschooled about the sovereignty of God, the ten commandments and the ethics of Jesus, could never have evolved the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. There is not one solitary fundamental principle of our democratic policy that did not stem directly from the basic moral concepts as embodied in the Decalog and the ethics of Jesus . . . No one knew this better than the Founding Fathers."

Special Note: Even if the word "God" was in the Constitution it probably would not make any difference. Secularist groups like the ACLU would probably dismiss it as a mere formality. There are 50 reasons to believe that this is true. Since secularists dismiss all references to God in the state constitutions, there is no reason to believe that they would behave any differently with the federal Constitution. Their commitment to secularism will not allow for the possibility that they might be wrong. Interestingly, in 1915 there was one state supreme court which said that the reference to "in the year of our Lord" in the U.S. Constitution was a reference to Jesus Christ!

absoluteparanoia: Where is "God" in the Constitution?

The mistake modern secularists make is obvious. They take a twentieth century concept like "secularism" and read it back into the Constitution. They take a concept that didn't even exist in the eighteenth century and attribute it to the framers of the Constitution. Unfortunately, this is a very common mistake. The fact that the word "God" does not appear in the Constitution means little. It is actually a rather shallow observation. The reality is "God" is in every word of the Constitution, including the punctuation. Below the surface of the words in the Constitution, there are a mountain of ideas that made its formation possible. The belief that God exists and that all nations of the world are subject to Him sits on the summit of that mountain. As the Supreme Court of Florida said in 1950: "Different species of democracy have existed for more than 2,000 years, but democracy as we know it has never existed among the unchurched. A people unschooled about the sovereignty of God, the ten commandments and the ethics of Jesus, could never have evolved the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. There is not one solitary fundamental principle of our democratic policy that did not stem directly from the basic moral concepts as embodied in the Decalog and the ethics of Jesus . . . No one knew this better than the Founding Fathers."

Special Note: Even if the word "God" was in the Constitution it probably would not make any difference. Secularist groups like the ACLU would probably dismiss it as a mere formality. There are 50 reasons to believe that this is true. Since secularists dismiss all references to God in the state constitutions, there is no reason to believe that they would behave any differently with the federal Constitution. Their commitment to secularism will not allow for the possibility that they might be wrong. Interestingly, in 1915 there was one state supreme court which said that the reference to "in the year of our Lord" in the U.S. Constitution was a reference to Jesus Christ!

i smell some copy and paste....

many of the founders were deists (adams, jefferson, franklin) and didn't even believe in the divinity of christ. how does that square with your assertion?

dj_bigbird: Holy carp

GAT_00: Yes, the old "We're in the majority, enjoy your oppression" argument.

Not at all. We're the most powerful nation on earth with a vast majority of people who identify themselves as Christians. Right or wrong, that makes others, particularly non-majority Christian nations view us as a "Christian nation". I'm sure many people view Turkey as a Muslim nation because it's 99% Muslim, though they, like us, are supposedly a secular government.

brigid_fitch:
Please keep in mind that there's a big, GAPING difference between "Christians" and "Right-wing fundie nutjobs." Thank you.

THIS. Of the 78.5% mentioned above, many (if not most) of them are not evangelical pricks. Rather, they just want to have their faith and be left the hell alone. It's the fundamentalists in all religions, Christian, Atheist, Muslim, etc. give a bad name to the moderates

GoDawgs!: GAT_00: Yes, the old "We're in the majority, enjoy your oppression" argument.

Not at all. We're the most powerful nation on earth with a vast majority of people who identify themselves as Christians. Right or wrong, that makes others, particularly non-majority Christian nations view us as a "Christian nation". I'm sure many people view Turkey as a Muslim nation because it's 99% Muslim, though they, like us, are supposedly a secular government.

brigid_fitch:
Please keep in mind that there's a big, GAPING difference between "Christians" and "Right-wing fundie nutjobs." Thank you.

THIS. Of the 78.5% mentioned above, many (if not most) of them are not evangelical pricks. Rather, they just want to have their faith and be left the hell alone. It's the fundamentalists in all religions, Christian, Atheist, Muslim, etc. give a bad name to the moderates

i agree with pretty much everything you've said in this post.

The U.S. population's distribution by race and ethnicity in 2006 was as follows:

Total population: 299 million
White alone: 74% or 221.3 million
Not including the 23.2 million White Hispanic and Latino Americans: 66% or 198.1 million
Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, of any race: 14.8% or about 44.3 million
Black or African American alone: 13.4% or 40.9 million
Some other race alone: 6.5% or 19 million
Asian alone: 4.4% or 13.1 million
Two or more races: 2.0% or 6.1 million
American Indian or Alaska Native alone: 0.68% or 2.0 million
Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander alone: 0.14% or 0.43 million
These figures add up to more than 100% on this list because Hispanic and Latino Americans are distributed among all the races and are also listed as an ethnicity category, resulting in a double count.

By the logic expressed in this thread so far, that means that we are also a white nation.

FlashHarry: i smell some copy and paste....

many of the founders were deists (adams, jefferson, franklin) and didn't even believe in the divinity of christ. how does that square with your assertion?

To the framers of the Constitution, the idea of having a government not based on God would have been unthinkable. It is important to remember that when the Constitution was written, the only possible explanation for the existence of the Universe was special creation. Therefore, all of the delegates at the Philadelphia convention were creationist. This is the reason the framers did not create a "secular" state in the modern sense of the term. Indeed, the concept of "secularism" as it is used today didn't even exist in 1787. It is largely a twentieth century concept. Since the framers of our Constitution predated Darwin and the theory of evolution, the desire to have a "secular" state would have made as much sense to them as Egyptian hieroglyphics. It is only with the advent of Darwin and an alternative explanation for the existence of the Universe that a secular state becomes desirable. There were atheists in 1787 to be sure but they lacked a coherent scientific explanation for the existence of the Universe.

I_C_Weener: Freedom of religion means freedom from religion too..

No it does not. You have a right to believe whatever you want. However, you do not have the right to demand religion be stricken from your view, as that is forcing your own "religious" beliefs onto others.

I may be misinterpreting what you say, so correct me if I am misunderstanding you.

Dr. Rosenrosen:
By the logic expressed in this thread so far, that means that we are also a white nation.